.45ACP 185gr clone load with SWCs

[FieldShunt]

I'd like to work out a "clone load" for my .45ACP defense load with some coated 185gr SWCs.
We use the term clone load to mean it duplicates more or less a factory load for practice purposes.
So my main self-defense load is some Georgia Arms 185gr Gold Dot +Ps that I managed to acquire a pretty good amount of. But rather than burn that excellent stuff up practicing with it, I got a box of SnS 185gr coated SWCs. I tried some Red Dot, a powder I often use in .45ACP, but can't get enough power to come anywhere near the GA load: 1060fps in my old Commanders, 1100 in Government Models. Hot stuff.
So I have pile of Unique, and am thinking of starting with that.
One that also appeals is BE-86, I've had some good results with that when it first came out.
Trying to stay within the powders on hand for now.
Powder charge suggestions welcome.
Bill

[Adam Helmer]

I'd like to work out a "clone load" for my .45ACP defense load with some coated 185gr SWCs.
We use the term clone load to mean it duplicates more or less a factory load for practice purposes.
So my main self-defense load is some Georgia Arms 185gr Gold Dot +Ps that I managed to acquire a pretty good amount of. But rather than burn that excellent stuff up practicing with it, I got a box of SnS 185gr coated SWCs. I tried some Red Dot, a powder I often use in .45ACP, but can't get enough power to come anywhere near the GA load: 1060fps in my old Commanders, 1100 in Government Models. Hot stuff.
So I have pile of Unique, and am thinking of starting with that.
One that also appeals is BE-86, I've had some good results with that when it first came out.
Trying to stay within the powders on hand for now.
Powder charge suggestions welcome.
Bill

Bill,

WOW! You really are pushing the .45 ACP loads hard to get 1100 fps! I hesitate to recommend any Unique charge. I say go with what is in published reloading manuals. Also, I suspect the cast boolits are HARD at 1100 fps. I load the Lyman #452460 200 grain boolit to about 950 fps and it always worked for me.

Be well.

Adam

[Wheelgun]

I may have misunderstood, but I believe his +P Gold Dot carry ammo is going 1100fps, and he’s trying to duplicate that.

I’ve no personal experience, but Alliant website shows 8.2 unique under the 185gr Gold Dot for a 45acp +P that makes 1015fps in 4.4” barrel.

[FieldShunt]

Yes, it's the Georgia Arms +P factory load I'd like to simulate.
We stumbled onto a large quantity in an estate sale. The price was right, even though I've never been a light-for-caliber bullet guy. This stuff has changed my mind, especially after seeing some YouTube stuff with equivalents. Maybe a fast-moving 185 is better after all.
We do know that Mr. Browning didn't care for the 230gr specification; he'd designed the cartridge with a 200gr slug in mind. What with the precursor Bullseye behind it, maybe it was a fast-stepper, too.
Yes, the GA load is indeed hot. I make sure my various 1911s have new recoil springs on the heavy side and "square bottom" firing pin stops.
In my .45 Shield, I will testify it's a handful, about as much as I can handle in that little gun (which is surprisingly nice-shooting with regular ball).
Wheelgun, here's where I'm embarrassed to admit I hadn't looked at that exact Alliant page yet. My question is, how would that translate to the coated SWC? Maybe I start around 7.0gr and see how it goes.

[Wheelgun]

Yeah I’d start about there and work up. I’ve used jacketed data for cast, but I start low and work up until I get to were I want. With coated cast I’ve gotten right up to max jacket loads with out leading.

If bullet/boolit the the about same weight, and same amount of projectile inside the case, the pressure should be less with a cast vs jacketed.

** Also Alliant shows a standard 45acp 185gr cast load with 7.5gr BE-86 going 1074fps.
This might be a better fit…

[FieldShunt]

Yes, it's always interesting how those factors balance out, or don't, with cast and jacketed.
My experience is that the coated-cast usually takes about 10-15% less charge to get the same result.
I have yet to get any leading with the SnS coating, having only gone up to about 1350fps. Mr. Stinar always said you could go to 1700 with his coating, I have to try that someday.

[fredj338]

Yeah you need a slower powder than RD Unique is a good choice, easily hit 1100fps. I imagine BE86 works even a bit better. Its basically PP without the blast.You really need a chrono to get there. Loading by feel is very deceptive.

[fredj338]

Bill,

WOW! You really are pushing the .45 ACP loads hard to get 1100 fps! I hesitate to recommend any Unique charge. I say go with what is in published reloading manuals. Also, I suspect the cast boolits are HARD at 1100 fps. I load the Lyman #452460 200 grain boolit to about 950 fps and it always worked for me.

Be well.

Adam

Not really. Speer shows 8.2gr getting 1150 with gdhp. I wouldnt go that hot but 1100fps is pretty easy. I have run 8.1gr under the RemGS, 8.2gr under 185xtp for 1100 in a 5”, but i consider that max. Factory Fed & Ren 185+p run 1100fps in a 5”.

[rintinglen]

Hey Fred, my copy of Speer 14 shows (p. 970) 8.2 grains as max with Unique, but with 1015 fps, not 1150. Quite frankly, I don't know that you can get there from here with powders listed. That Georgia Arms +P stuff is pretty stout. Max loads of Longshot or Power Pistol might be able to get you there, but they are not under discussion here.

[mehavey]

Has the OP looked at Alliant (BE-86/Sports Pistol) data?
https://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/recipedetail.aspx?gtypeid=1&weight=185&shellid=35&bulletid=334

[FieldShunt]

Has the OP looked at Alliant (BE-86/Sports Pistol) data?
https://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/recipedetail.aspx?gtypeid=1&weight=185&shellid=35&bulletid=334

Well, yes, once Mr. Wheelgun pointed out my error of omission above.
Now, to find some BE-86. My supply is down to the last couple of ounces.
BE-86 seems to be one of those powders that gets forgotten, but I have always gotten really good results with it in such divergent calibers as .380 and .38 Super.

[Sandspider500]

A laser cast 200gr swc is .64 long and loaded to 1.24 oal,

5gr red dot 978fps
5.5gr red dot 1030fps
6gr red dot 1076fps

5.5gr American select 980fps
6gr American select 1048fps
6.5gr American select 1113fps

7gr power pistol 1032fps
7.5gr power pistol 1080fps
8gr power pistol 1106fps
8.5gr power pistol 1157fps

5.5gr zip 940fps
6gr zip 999fps
6.5gr zip 1069
7gr zip 1131fps

6gr unique 936fps
6.5gr unique 1010fps

These are loads from Brian Pierce. He states in the article that none of the loads are at +p pressure (23,000psi) and says all the loads are within the saami 21,000 psi. I would think these can be used for your 185gr as long as it is taking up the same or less amount of case capacity. If a lighter bullet is seated to the same depth as a heavier bullet, it will have more velocity than the heavier bullet using the same powder charge.

Hopefully you have a chronograph.

[FLINTNFIRE]

AA #5 gets you where you want

[Sandspider500]

^^^Laser cast 200gr swc 1.24 oal
8.5gr aa5 977fps
9.5gr aa5 1076fps

[justindad]

Ramshot load manual #3 (obsolete) has load data showing Enforcer to be good up to 1,202 fps with 185 grain Hornady XTP with a 5” barrel. Expect some recoil.

[FLINTNFIRE]

Hodgdon reloading data site about all aa5 loads for 185 are 1100 fps , it is online to use and free , I have aa5 but it is not my choice for 45acp as I am not loading 185 grain or looking for loads to match another load , using mine in other calibers .

Since I load 200 or 230 grain I am using IMR target I bought when it was cheap , I only brought up the aa5 as it seems to produce the speed the op was looking to match .

[FieldShunt]

Haven't seen any Accurate #5 in these parts in quite some time. Wish I could get some #9 for 10mm.
Indeed, I rarely go to the club without a chrono. It's a geek thing.
Calling around for BE-86.

[Kraschenbirn]

Haven't seen any Accurate #5 in these parts in quite some time. Wish I could get some #9 for 10mm.
Indeed, I rarely go to the club without a chrono. It's a geek thing.
Calling around for BE-86.

Powder Valley and Graf's both have AA5 and AA9 in stock. FWIW, AA5 was my 'go-to' for IPSC 'Major' with a 185 SWC for quite a few years.

Bill

[nueces5]

I've done those types of loads in my FM with power pistol, really hot, I stopped at 7.4 grains.
I think your weapon is going to suffer accelerated wear if you use those loads a lot.
I have abandoned those recipes

[Apple Man]

I realize this goes against the theme of the thread. But with litigation in today's society I would stick with FACTORY AMMO for a self defense rounds. In the event it is actually used for the intended purpose, a homemade boolit and load is just another red herring to cloud a legal proceeding.

But I am still and Elmer Keith fan and big boolits with square shoulders work good.

[FieldShunt]

The purpose of this load is to replicate the recoil and other characteristics of the Georgia Arms commercial self-defense load I have in my various .45s, so there's no liability concerns there.
There's no BE-86 to be had within any reasonable driving distance and while Graf's has a good price, the additional $36 or so for shipping is daunting. I'm not looking to stock up a major quantity on this, so even an hour ride to get some would pay.
However, the local shop closest to us does have Accurate #7 and #9, so I may just go that way. It seems that those loads can come close to the BE-86 loads, at least close enough for this purpose.
I do like BE-86's less flash and blast (in my limited experience).

[gwpercle]

If you have Unique powder on hand ... I would start with a load of 6.0 or 6.5 grains Unique and work up slowly to get the desired recoil / accuracy ...
My pet / favorite load with a 185 gr. JHP (Super-Vel bullet ) was 7.5 grs Unique .

The Speer Reloading Manual #14 - with the 185 GDHP shows a max Load of
8.2 grs Unique @ 1015 fps ... and a Starting load 7.3 grs Unique @904 fps .

Work up carefully to that maximum load ( 8.2 grs Unique) ... it looks like it could get warm .
Load Safe ,
Gary

[FieldShunt]

Have a ton of Unique but it doesn't look like it will work out with these SnS coated SWCs to get there.
Found some (reasonably priced, almost) Accurate #7. I'll give that a go before tossing all that money at hazmat plus shipping.

[Sandspider500]

I think unique would work just fine. :2gunsfiring_v1:
You said +p and unique will get there just fine.

[gwpercle]

I think unique would work just fine. :2gunsfiring_v1:
You said +p and unique will get there just fine.

:goodpost:
I Agree ...
If 8.2 grs of Unique wont get you there ... Don't Go !
Besides ... If you have plenty Unique on hand ... then it's the best place to start !
Gary

[Reloader3]

I just joined Cast Boolits.

My first post was in the Frequently Asked Questions since it seemed to indicate that was the place though it seems somewhat strange for all questions.

In any event, I will not duplicate that post here, but instead a somewhat related question. With different rifling twists, does the hardness of the lead alloys have a correspondence. That is to say, if the rifling is a fairly fast twist, say 1:10" versus a 1:18" twist - would a harder lead alloy be better with the faster twist?

A "normal" 45 auto would generally have a 1:16" twist. However, pushing the bullet faster, will commonly used alloys work well enough, or would harder (or softer) alloys do better.

That seems to come across as obviously the harder alloy should work better but bore obturation with a softer alloy sometimes out paces just going with a harder alloy.

Help me out - I think I'm going is circles with this.

Thanks.

[justindad]

Reloader3- You’re splitting hairs, especially for a .45 ACP. A wide range of alloy will work for you there, and an even wider ranger will work if you do PC instead of lubing.
*
Here’s an experiment for you: start with 92-6-2 hardball alloy. Shoot some rounds, checking for leading, if no leading occurs dilute your alloy 50:50 with pure lead. Then you’ll had 96-3-1 alloy. Shoot some rounds, check for leading (I doubt you’ll see any), then if you have good results, cut your alloy again with pure lead, maybe add some tin. If you add 0.5% tin, you might have 97.5-1.5-1 alloy. This softer lead may be fine in your barrel. However, what you’ll find is that your brass case will swage the bullet down causing you to buy a custom expander so your soft lead stays at full diameter in your case. Through all this, I doubt your barrel’s twist rate will come into play at all.
*
Feel free to experiment. It’s not a big deal.

[Reloader3]

Thanks for your insights Justindad.