M1 Garand in .308 WIN - just purchased ! LOADS ?

[DoctorBill]

I used to frequent this Forum A LOT, but life got in the way and I got OLD (81).

Been obtaining Rolling Blocks and have set up for them. Carl-Gustave 11.7 mm,
.43 Spanish, .32 cal Boys rifle, .22 "Salon Gun"...I forget what I have !

Anyway.....I just won an M1 Garand in .308 WIN on GunBroker, so while I wait
and wait and wait for shipping, FFL (10 days Min where I live), it has all come to
around $1,500. Got 200 once shot "22" .308 Brass from Oncefiredbrass.com
($46) and a set of LEE .308 Dies from E-Bay $45.

https://i.postimg.cc/FHLfdNV5/pix102802274.jpg

I want to have some reloads made up by the time our communist run gun control
allows me to get the rifle in my old hands. Coming with two enbloc clips supposedly.

THUS - I have some 170 gr LEE cast bullets with Cu Gas Checks made up long ago.
they are 182 grain with the gas checks and Alox lube on them. I have some
Reloader 7 set up in my powder dispenser ready to fill 25 to 28 grains (from
Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook p 186).

I don't need or want HOT loads to kill them Paper Wabbits out there at 100 yards.
Haven't shot in at least 5 years, eyes going bad, shaking more.
Short term memory is getting worse.....I want to get out and shoot before I can't.

So.....what do you guys think of my reload plans ?

DoctorBill

[Delkal]

Not sure about .308 but 30-06 Garands are happiest with 150 grain bullets and relatively fast 4895 powder. Heavier 180 grain jacketed bullets with slower powders have been known to bend the op rod. A heavier cast bullet should be OK but don't load it with a slow powder to get the highest velocities.

I didn't check your load but I believe Reloader 7 is a faster powder so if this is in line with published loads you should be good.

[kaiser]

The M1 Garand .308 version is more accurate than the .30/06 (original) IMO. Any of the “medium” burning powers gives excellent accuracy and velocity. I’m particularly enamored with 150 and 155gr match bullet loads, as suggested; I do not have any experience with cast. I use “X” dies to extend case life of the brass and enough powder to operate the action reliably. I’m not too far behind you in age and find the factory aperture sight more precise and easier to use than traditional “open sights”, even for older more mature eyes. Enjoy your new rifle!

[rgsumpter]

I am also setting up to reload for a 30-06 M1 and this is what I have learned (or at least my understanding) but no experience with. Some of this will pertain to the 308 M1 and some I am not sure of.

You need to have enough pressure at the gas port to cycle the action but not too much that it will cycle it too fast and cause the op rod to bend. For the 30-06 with jacketed bullets the best powders are between H4895 and Varget. The M2 ball uses 150gr bullets, match grade 30-06 uses 168gr and 30-06 armor piercing uses 163gr. I believe that the 7.62 used a 147gr for the standard load, not sure about the others. The Horandy manual has some M1 specific loads for a 30-06 but not sure about the 308. I believe that your RL7 will be on the fast side especially for cast.

For cast bullets it is a different story and it is my understanding that you can use some slower powders. Again I am just learning and if you do a search on here there are loads for both cast and jacketed.

Not sure where you are on the East side but I just ordered some 147gr pulled bullets for my M1 from here. https://www.cdvs.us/product/308-dia-150-grain-boat-tail-ball-bullets-500-pack/ They are located by Deer Park.

[DoctorBill]

The Load that I gave is from the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook, so it should be OK.....unless the M1 Chokes on it.
I will load up only 10 perhaps before going all out.

BTW - thank YOU Mr. RGSumpter ! I ordered 500 just now ! With Tax, License and Postage, they come out to 15.2¢ each !
Holey Moley !
They have "Pull Down" powder from .308's 150 gr bullet, but are sold out......as everywhere else.

DoctorBill

[rgsumpter]

They have "Pull Down" powder from .308's 150 gr bullet, but are sold out......as everywhere else.

DoctorBill


Signs of the times. I think that this is the worst drought that I have been through. Even worse than the 90's. And just when I am going to try and reload for something new.

When you are looking at loads for the M1 make sure that they are specific for the M1. I know that in the case of 30-06 you want to do this. Also you want to be very careful of factory ammo as the standard 30-06 loads that you purchase now for the 06 will most likely cause issues with it. Again not sure of the 308 but I would think that is also the case. I did purchase Vihtavuori N140 as the local Sportsman Warehouse carries it. That and N135 have loads for the 06 M1.

They do sell a adjustable gas plug for the M1's so you can use factory ammo but I do not want to go down that road. https://www.schustermfg.com/m1-garand-wwii-adjustable-gas-plug/

[hporter]

Bill,

I started experimenting with cast bullets in my 308 Garand a few years ago. I was working up a load with H4895 and the Lyman 311299.

There are a lot of existing threads on this site on this very topic. I took a recommended load from one of those threads, and started 5 grains below that to be safe. I knew I most likely wouldn't be able to cycle the action, but I wanted to work up to a load that would.

28.0 grains of H4895 and the Lyman 311299 gave me 1748 fps, but didn't cycle the action.

29.3 grains of H4895 and the Lyman 311299 gave me 1813 fps but still did not cycle the action consistently - but was very close to doing so.

I use the Lee Auto-disk powder measure on my Dillon 650 press, hence the weird progression in powder charge. I was going to use the the next two larger cavities on my next outing with the Garand, but work has kept me from doing so.

Good luck with your exploration.

[jcullen]

I've owned six Garands one in 7.62x51 I never shot anything other than FMJ and 4895, 4064 .....That's me

[Uncle Grinch]

I bought one of CMP’s Expert Garands with the Criterion 308 barrel a couple of years ago. Very nice shooter. Check yours to see if it has the Criterion barrel or if it has the chamber insert.

[fastdadio]

Here's some service rifle data I've been using for years;
https://bearblain.com/Service%20Rifle%20Loadings.html

[Jeremy2171]

The garand isn't as fragile as the internet leads you to believe.

Ensure your oprod spring is at least 19.5" long and the rifle properly greased and you won't have any issues.

No aftermarket add ons needed.

[country gent]

The "load" most used in NR A high power was 41.5 grns IMR 4895 under a 168 sierra MKHP. federal primer. This was a close duplication of the M852 match loading. It performed out to 600 yds very well in most rifles.

[DoctorBill]

by the by......what is the Over All Length (OAL) for the .308 WIN that the M1 Garand prefers
to eat...? Standard for the .308 WI - 2.810 inch (Lyman Handbook 49th Ed.) ?

Hell - WHAT is/was THE STANDARD U.S. Military .308 WIN Load used by American Troops in the past ?


DoctorBill

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.62%C3%9751mm_NATO

"The dimensions of .308 Winchester are almost the same as 7.62×51mm NATO. The chamber of the former has a marginally shorter headspace and thinner case walls than the latter due to changed specifications between 1952 and 1954. This allows 7.62×51mm NATO ammunition to feed reliably in rifles chambered for .308 Winchester, but can cause .308 Winchester ammunition cases to rupture when fired in rifles chambered for 7.62×51mm NATO."

HUH ?

[Ford SD]

For Cast in a 308 M1 Garand I would start here

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?3558-7-62x51-NATO-(-308-WCF)-in-the-Springfield-M1A

[country gent]

Unless a special throat has been cut the overall length is the same for 308 in the garand. You Can load it way longer and fit in the action but it wont chamber do to the throat

[Pirate69]

I took a quick look at a 183 grain boolet, in a 308 Win, using QL and a 24-inch barrel.

With 25 grains RL-7, chamber pressure is approximately 19,800 psi. Muzzle pressure is approximately 4,610 psi. Exit velocity is approximately 1,814 fps.

With 28 grains RL-7, chamber pressure is approximately 25,700 psi. Muzzle pressure is approximately 5,049 psi. Exit velocity is approximately 1,990 fps.

I don't think RL-7 loads between 25-28 grains will damage the operating rod, based on the projected muzzle pressures. Depending on the boolit, there may be a concern with bore leading. That boolit will be zipping right along.

As a comparison, these are the results for the above mentioned M852 Match Load. With 41.5 grains IMR 4895, chamber pressure is approximately 52,828 psi. Muzzle pressure is approximately 7,234 psi. Exit velocity is approximately 2,653 fps.

[DoctorBill]

Thanks to rgsumpter (post #4), I now have ~500 FMJ 150 gr pulled bullets to shoot !

I rcvd the LEE 3 die Pacesetter Die Set. In the Instructions included with the Dies,
LEE gives tables of Loading Information. I have 2.5 lbs of RELOADER 15, and that powder
is listed for 150 gr FMJ bullets.....So - I gonna do that !

The load Start is 43.1 gr and the do not exceed Max load is 49 gr.

I decided to start with a reduced load of 38 grains to see how the
M1 Garand works and to be kind to it AND my old 81 yr old shoulder.

I thought I would have to use a filler. NOPE ! The 38 grns comes
right up to the beginning of the shoulder curve ! hardly any room
left to get to 49 grs ! The Brass cases are Headstamped "22".
Out of Romania, I have determined. 49 gr would be a compressed
load in these cases....
https://i.postimg.cc/C1rZNLbd/Unknown-Headstamp.jpg

Anyway....I just wanted to mention that HERE in case of any comments.

I cannot get my hands on the M1 until May 10th due to the "People's Republic
of Washington's" home grown anti-gun rules.

https://i.postimg.cc/FHLfdNV5/pix102802274.jpg

So I have time to reload a LOT of rounds to be ready. I obtained 3 Enbloc Clips for $3 each in a Surplus Store.
https://i.postimg.cc/FsbgfbrV/20240426-161722.jpg
I may get some more clips soon.

All is well. So far, so good. No worries. Knock on wood !

DoctorBill

PS - I will look into trying some Cast Loads that I mentioned at the start
of this thread later on, now that I have the 150 gr FMJ slugs.

[charlie b]

Keep in mind that the 10 twist barrel tends to favor loads below 2000fps.

My std Garand really liked the 210gn bullets at 1900fps. It would function with 165gn bullets at 2100fps, but, they were not as accurate. FWIW, those were powder coated bullets.

[DoctorBill]

.
Can anyone explain what these Letters and Numbers mean on my Still at
the FFL Agent M1 Garand ? I guess you click on the thumbnails....
These photos were screencopied off of the GunBroker Auction web Site and Enhanced
and labeled with PAINT.NET.

326248

326249

326250

326251

326252

326253

326254

From what I can gather off of the Internet and YouTube,
this is a NAVY .308 Garand (?) Made at the Springfield
Armory in late Sept 1940.....
Where was it modified, Changed, rebuilt, messed with (?)

DoctorBill

PS - 326255

[Delkal]

There were slight revisions in the specs or machining throughout production and all of the major parts have a drawing number that corresponds with the changes. The first D number is the same for each part but the revision number is shown with a dash (-12, 6 etc). While there was some overlap during each transition you can compare the rifles serial number and the parts numbers to determine if the rifle is "correct" as it came from the factory or later rebuilt. There are books /websites where you can find this. Factory original Garands are extremely rare and just about all were rebuilt one or more times after the wars.

Your rifle has an early receiver which was probably rebuilt numerous times. I believe that is a commercial barrel, a Greek BMB bolt, a later -6 oprod and -12 trigger housing (the parts in it will have more numbers). I would need better pics to know if the cartouche on the stock is legit but that it is a later Korean war DAS cartouche. The handguard finish not matching the stock is typical.

[country gent]

With the criterion barrel it sounds more like a CMP/DCM rebarrel than an military one. When the "naveys" were assembled criterion wasnt here yet.Would be interesting to know if its a standard contour, med heavy or full heavy barrel.
My garand in 308 has a 4 groove 1-10 twist med heavy barrel on it made by Douglas. Its a shooter. M852 match ammo in it is a real performer at 600 yds. My rifle is at 2-3 clicks up at 200yds, 300yds is 5-6 clicks up, and 600 is around 18 up this is from memory. For years this was used as a loaner rifle for gents starting out in high power.

I believe hoirnady has a service rifle section in their loading manuals that is also at the correct port pressures.

HAs your rifle been glass bedded, or any other match mods done.

[Ford SD]

BMB on the bolt = Beretta its a good bolt

CBI Barrel Drawing #/ Twist / Date made / and I think port size

[DoctorBill]

.
I suppose the answer(s) to this are posted somewhere, but it is difficult
to ask questions or search for answers when you do not even know the
proper jargon to ask !

THAT is the BIGGEST problem in looking for information !

So....here is my question: IF the Receiver was made in late Sept of 1940 for
30-06 cartridges, then HOW was it modified to use .308 ?
Milled off back shorter, then .308 port welded on ?
THEN the Criterion barrel screwed on in 2006 (06-15) ?

I am an 81 yr old, fairly ignorant, amateur "Machinist" - so I am interested in
THE HOW of the 30-06 M1 Garand's modification.....what did they do ?

I hope I asked that correctly ? !

Then....BMB = Bridgeport Manufacturing Company according to internet site
https://thegunzone.com/what-is-bmb-marked-for-m1-garand/
How do you interpret 06-15 for a date ? June of 2015 ? Quite new then !!!!
What does .093 signify ? What is "Port Size" ?

Just for the Grins of it: 1 in 10 twist.
2,000 fps x 12"/ft = 24,000 inches/sec velocity
x 60 sec/min = 1,440,000 inches / min muzzle velocity
x .83 turns/ 12 inches = 99,000 rpm of bullet (?) Is THAT right or possible ?
Muddled ? Confusing...

JUST found this !
https://www.standardpartsllc.com/productcart/pc/viewcategories.asp?idCategory=15

Ignorance is expensive .........but it's fun to learn.

DoctorBill (retired PhD Biochemist UC Davis 1973)

[Delkal]

The receiver was not modified. They just installed and headspaced a new .308 barrel that has the correct port size already drilled. I believe the barrel was made in 6/2015 and Criterion makes good barrels. The plastic spacer under the receiver is so you can't load 30-06.

I mistakenly said the BMB bolt was Greek but it was an Italian part that were on the earlier Danish CMP returns. I got the Greek and Danish issues mixed up. Like the US the Danes rebuilt the rifles to keep them going and had some Italian versions of the Garand. And like the US they made no attempt to match parts. If it was in spec it was installed. I believe the BMB bolt was made by Breda and Baretta parts were stamped PB (but check). It doesn't matter though because the Italian garands and parts had excellent machining and are of equivalent quality to USGI.

I think you will be pleased with this rifles accuracy.

[Ford SD]

How can you shoot 308 in a action designed for 3006

Good News you have a barrel Marked 308 so instead of using a 30-06 reamer they used a 308 reamer
Just be careful if you more than 1 garand on the shooting bench
Your rifle has a plastic block in it to prevent loading 3006
metal one here
ht tps://www.fulton-armory.com/spacerblockf308cal.aspx

Beretta made a bunch of rifles by cutting off app 1/2 off the back of the barrel and retreading the stub and cutting a new chamber
then cut the stock and the op rod 1/2 inch (These ones they remarked the receiver stub to 308)

They also inserting a insert in the barrel to do the conversion ( most if these inserts would self extract with a brass case) you will most likly not find one of these barrels

CBI
Makes short chambered barrels for the M1 Garand
in
3006
308
35 Wheelen
270 Winchester
6.5 Creedmore

and i think in the past 358 winchester

[DoctorBill]

Thanks for the clarification delkal !

Trying to find out just who did what and when is daunting !

I have many old 19th century English rifles (a Martini Henry and a Snider for example)
and the stamps and proof marks are an Archivists nightmare !

So....it looks like my .308 M1 Garand has a relatively 'new' barrel and a
"Bridgeport Manufacturing Company" bolt installed. A "FRANKENSTEIN" !
As to the trigger assembly....?

I have to WAIT another 6 days before I get my rifle due to my State's
Liberal Democrat, 'progressive' rules for transfer. I desperately want to RANT here.....
but I will restrain myself.

DoctorBill

[Baltimoreed]

I seem to remember someone offering a 25-06 barrel for the M1. I would have got one of those when I had my M1 put together. Had a Ruger #1V and then a Sendero in 25-06 back then. Enjoy your new toy Doc.

[Delkal]

Last I heard you can give your rifles serial number and $25 to the CMP and they will tell you if they sold it and when. I believe they will aslo know what grade it was sold as and if it was in .308. I don't think it will change the value but you can decide if it is worth it.

Your rifle is not a Frankenstein. It is a mixmaster same as 99% of the Garands out there. After WWII all of the Garands and carbines were stripped, refinished, and put back together from the random parts in bins. For most rifles the best you could do is have an original barreled receiver or an original trigger group that may or may not be correct for your rifle. They did the same after Korea and also sent thousands of rifles overseas to foreign nations we supported. We let them use them but this was considered a loan and they were supposed to be returned after they were no longer used. When all of the US based rifles were gone the CMP started getting the loaned rifles back from the Danish then the Greeks. They are not considered imports since they were always US property. They just spent some time in a foreign country. Now the number of surplus rifles are almost gone and the CMP has been getting smaller numbers of Garands back from other countries. Many of these newer returns are in rough condition but the CMP rebuilds these to make them serviceable again. One of the biggest problems are worn out barrels so they have been using new Criteron barrels for some time now. Many also have commercial stocks.

[country gent]

When the Military adopted the M14 and went with it the Navy stayed with the garand after a few years to make ammo supply easier these were first converted with a insert pressed in the chamber that converted them to 308. there was a spacer that went in the mag well to keep 30-06 being loaded ( 06 wouldnt fire but a round left to slam home would jam the rifle up.). No modifications to the receivers or en block clip were needed. Then after a few inserts had came out the rifles were fitted with new 308 barrels, chambered for 308. these navy garands were normally exceptional shooters.

When you get your rifle and seat the first clip of 308 you will see that the action is long with a lot more room at the front of the rounds.

Some say the better accuracy was the 308 round but I also think the rifles converted were for just the navy were a short run for the arsenal doing the conversion so a little more attention was paid to them.

It used to be common to shim garands actions into the stock with paper shims to tighten them up this did help accuracy. When disassembling a garand be aware of this and watch for them. The barreled action dosnt come straight up out of the stock but comes out in a arc swinging up and forward.

A good addition to the rifle is a sled clip ( single load enhancment device) This allows single rounds to be loaded easily.

[DoctorBill]

.
I saw something neat which I just ordered from E-Bay.

326294

https://www.ebay.com/itm/353136798339

It holds the Breech open (saves fingers) and catches dirty Hoppe's #9
dripping patches as they emerge from the barrel end.
Clever what these 2nd Amendment people come up with....

There are two types of Shooters for M1 Garand:

1. Those that have received their M1 Thumb

2. Those who are going to receive their M1 Thumb.


I got my M1 Thumb back in 1968 in ROTC Drill at the University
of Illinois. But, looking back, I had fun in Drill on the Armory
Floor of packed down black ground up coal coke.

DoctorBill

PS - Being a FRANKENSTEIN isn't all bad....after all it was stronger than normal,
became very intelligent and prevailed, in the end.....(Mary Shelley)

[country gent]

I have that cleaning insert they work well not just with the garand but the M1A/M14 as well. Another way is to clean with the rifle upside down in a cradle. You can make a cradle from a old card board box by cutting a notch or vee in each end so the rifle can set in it. Even with the insert this is a good idea. Also use a muzzle protector when cleaning.

The dewey 30 cal service rifle rods were very good right dia and just long enough. The shorter length makes cleaning from the muzzle mush easier to control.

The military tool is a great one to have, has everything needed to work on the rifle in the field and a chamber brush or swab. With it you can clean the chamber, change extractor / spring, ejector / spring, firing pin. pull the gas plug. Its a handy tool to have. When changing the extractor it keeps the ejector and springs captive so they dont disappear into the nether world. You can on a 308 rifle do this with a 30-06 case and small screw driver also. Having a spare extractor or 2 in your kit is good too.

[Ford SD]

when you load your e-block load the last round so is on the right side

Alway Load a round from a eblock.... NEVER just slide a round into the chamber and let the Bolt slam forward

If buying Factory rounds look out for High velocity rounds as some can damage the oprod

and Check your recoil spring with a tape measure

M1 Garand recoil Spring

Proper length is 19 3/4 to 20 1/4" when new.

Cast loads can be equal to or be better than Ball loads accuracy wise

and can be a lot easier on the oprod / rifle as well as the shoulder

[DoctorBill]

.
I have made Muzzle Protectors for cleaning old rifles by finding a PLASTIC Screw
Top Bottle Cap that fits the Muzzle well, drilling or melting a hole in the exact
center and using that. It keeps the cleaning rod from rubbing the Muzzle
end. Costs nothing and lasts forever.......but - it is easy to lose ! Like my keys.

DoctorBill

PS - Ford-SD....I thought that that right or left side case in the Enbloc Problem
was solved long ago. It was due to machining away a nub in the receiver's left side
by the manufacturer - to make it easier to manufacture. Once corrected, the
M1 never jammed again. ? ? ? ?

I'm reloading 150 gr FMJ with 38 gr Reloader 15...a mild load. Hope it works the
Bolt Mechanism. Waiting for the Bureaucracy's TEN DAY rubbish is maddening.

[country gent]

Try a shotgun shell hull with the primer pushed out. 12 gauge just fits over the flash hiders on M1As.

[Ford SD]

.
I have made Muzzle Protectors for cleaning old rifles by finding a PLASTIC Screw
Top Bottle Cap that fits the Muzzle well, drilling or melting a hole in the exact
center and using that. It keeps the cleaning rod from rubbing the Muzzle
end. Costs nothing and lasts forever.......but - it is easy to lose ! Like my keys.

DoctorBill

PS - Ford-SD....I thought that that right or left side case in the Enbloc Problem
was solved long ago. It was due to machining away a nub in the receiver's left side
by the manufacturer - to make it easier to manufacture. Once corrected, the
M1 never jammed again. ? ? ? ?

I'm reloading 150 gr FMJ with 38 gr Reloader 15...a mild load. Hope it works the
Bolt Mechanism. Waiting for the Bureaucracy's TEN DAY rubbish is maddening.

Right side is better as your right thumb Presses down better when a case is on the right
Try it both ways and I think you will stay to the right


Yes the 12g empty shot gun shell works for M1a but not for M1 Garands

they do make a M1 Garand cleaning rod muzzle protector but not shure where I got mine

[Delkal]

I use a 22 hornet case with the primer pocket drilled out to fit the cleaning rod. The case fits perfectly in the muzzle and stops the cleaning rod from touching.

[Pirate69]

I rcvd the LEE 3 die Pacesetter Die Set. In the Instructions included with the Dies,
LEE gives tables of Loading Information. I have 2.5 lbs of RELOADER 15, and that powder
is listed for 150 gr FMJ bullets.....So - I gonna do that !

The load Start is 43.1 gr and the do not exceed Max load is 49 gr.

I decided to start with a reduced load of 38 grains to see how the
M1 Garand works and to be kind to it AND my old 81 yr old shoulder.

I thought I would have to use a filler. NOPE ! The 38 grns comes
right up to the beginning of the shoulder curve ! hardly any room
left to get to 49 grs ! The Brass cases are Headstamped "22".
Out of Romania, I have determined. 49 gr would be a compressed
load in these cases....

Your volumetric observations caught my attention. You indicated that a 38 grain load of RL-15 came up to the shoulder of the 308 case. A Speer 150 gain BT FMJ loaded to a COAL of 2.800 inches should consume approximately 83% of the available case capacity. A load of 45.6 grains RL-15 will consume 100% of the available case capacity. This is from QL data.

A 49 grain load of RL-15 is predicted to be approximately 107.5% of case capacity; yes, that would be compressed. It also predicts that the chamber pressure would be approximately 64,940 psi. This is in excess of the 62,000 psi SAAMI pressure.

I have seen information on 47-48 grain RL-15 being used in 30-06 M1 Garand reloads. You may want to recheck your load source.

I may be misreading your post but it may be worth rechecking.

[Ford SD]

I did use GRT using My OAl and info for my 308 using your 38 g charge of reloader 15

it might or might not function the action ( each rifle is different )

Its a place to start, and you can see what happens, I would not make a lot at that charge weight

If they do not function you can also use it like a spring assist straight pull

you then get to concentrate on the sights and take your time, and have fun :)

[Baltimoreed]

Don’t be this guy.326317

[DoctorBill]

This is a scan of the Loading Data in the LEE .308 WIN Die Instruction Set.

Just FYI. Click Thumbnail to enlarge.

326340

I have Reloader 15 (Newest), 4320 and 4064 (Both ~ 15 yrs old)

326341
Maybe a tad older than that......

DoctorBill

PS - Baltimoreed - - -
I did that in my first Drill Session in Army ROTC back in 1968 !
Most of us Raw 18 yr old Kids got the M1 Thumb. Me....just once.
Pain helps one to learn FAST !

[johnho]

FYI, you have an uncut operating rod and they command a premium price. Some will not shoot with them as they are a bit more brittle and that is why later on they started cutting a notch on them to make them stronger. Will it break? Most likely not but if it were mine I would get another rod with the cutout only because it's a bit more valuable and collectable over a cut one.

One other point. I have no idea how that will hold up in a 308 but keeping within the pressures it should be ok too. Best to go to the CMP site and ask there.

[DoctorBill]

,
I do not understand something about these Rifles.....

We have Modern Steels - Hard, Tough, almost any quality.

WHY are these Operating Rods not made of metal tough or springy
enough to handle almost ANY recoil ?

Wouldn't some Stainless Steels work better ?

How many of you have had the Operation Rod Bend or Deform ?
Is it a common problem ? Modern Engineering should
be able to overcome this.

Just curious.

ALSO - what is that Gas Plug Business at the front of the rifle ?
I hear on YouTube Videos that one can purchase an ADJUSTABLE gas vent plug....

DoctorBill

[Delkal]

They are made of high quality steel and tempered correctly. While oprod breakage was rare then you have 5 million rifles under hard use it happened enough so they later studied and fixed the problem. The original oprod had a sharp 90 degree edge and this is not a good design for introducing stress cracks. The fix was to substitute a cutout / radius at the joint to spread the strain. I don't think any rifles were recalled during WWII but the old oprods were modified after the war when rebuilt and changed the specs to have a cut on later production. Most of the oprods are now cut but if someone is trying to make a "correct" WWII Garand they need an uncut oprod. That is why they carry a good premium. Its hard to tell from the picture if your oprod is uncut but if it is you can replace it with a cut one then sell the uncut to a collector for a nice profit.

If you use the correct loads with the correct bullet and powder burn rate you do not need an adjustable gas plug. The military never used one.

[country gent]

The op rod is a weldment and a long thin tube with a dogleg in it While it may not bend with a few heavy loads they are susceptible to bending with repeated use of heavy loads.

The gas plugs were originally a gas trap design that vented of pressure. Changed later to the solid plug. You can drill and tap them 10-32 and make set screws with different size ports. I have done both M1 garand and M1A/M14 gas plugs.

The gas tube is stainless steel.

Hi speed photos show the op rod under pressure flexes using almost all the space in the stock and hand guards. When firing it flexes quite a bit and set up so harmonics under rapid fire

[johnho]

DoctorBill, are you referring to "modern" now or "modern" back in the late 30's and early 40's when this rod was made? Springfield Armory back then was the premier military gun manufacturer (nothing to do with the current Springfield). they tested over and over what metals and heat treatments would work. Many times they were right, but sometimes they were wrong. When they were wrong they would go back and eventually find the solution. Hence the cut in the operating rod. And almost any collector and shooter of M1's want the correct parts for their rifles, not some current after market part. We are a bit odd that way. SA was the manufacturer of all military small arms going all the way back to 1777. It's very rare today to find an all original M1 with all the correct parts. The parts were all interchangeable in the field hence the many parts from many years to be found in the current M1's for sale today. And they are a hoot to shoot. These 308's were a bit odd and were adapted from the 30-06 by using a sleeve in the chamber. Sometimes they would pull out but overall seemed to function fine. Never saw the need to make it into a 308 but then again I'm kind of a purest.

[DoctorBill]

.
I am not a collector like on Antiques Road Show, so I would buy the strongest
Oprod I could get. However, as I mentioned, I am also not a believer in shooting
Macho Loads in the rifle.
Thus, my 38 gr Reloader 15 load with 150 gr FMJ bullet , if it works to cycle the action,
will most likely be my go to load.
At 81, I give a big rat's pituty about being macho....

I don't hunt, so I don't need a hot load. It would be interesting to live where wild
pigs are a problem, tho..... THAT might be fun and useful to boot !

From the comments here, the 38 gr Rl-15 should do the job for me. A bit
higher if it isn't enough to cycle the Bolt.

I get the M1 Friday - 3 days to go. I was not born to be patient or a patient.

DoctorBill

[K43]

@DoctorBill, You really should go over to the Civilian Marksmanship Program (CMP) and ask these things. CMP is everything M1 Garand. They are the current outlet for US Gov surplus rifles. CMP's Armorers at the Anniston Depot are the official checkers, repairers, and overhaulers of the the surplus M1 riles.
All of your questions are already answered by experts in the CMP knowledge base: description and nomenclature of parts, function, field stripping, cleaning, greasing, shooting = all provided by the CMP.

http://www.civilianmarksmanship.com/

And the CMP forums.
https://forums.thecmp.org/

[DoctorBill]

.
I shall look into it, K43.

Been looking at the YouTube videos on the Gas Plug. Makes sense to me.

I DO NOT intend to shoot Commercial Cartridges....for two reasons.
EXPENSE - the cost now is asinine.
Heavy powder charges - way, way too hot ! Macho stuff or hunters stuff.

But, I DO HAVE a lot of collected Bullets of various weights (mass) and may
want to load them. Thus, the Gas Plug.
I will have to do my "Homework" and see what is what about that.

I haven't even received my M1 Garand yet !.... and here I am getting all sorts
of advice. All things come to those who wait. CoVid, gas, old age, duffusness.....

Having fun, thought. THAT is most important.
"Time is the Fire in which we burn". Delmore Schwartz (December 8 1913 – July 11 1966).

DoctorBill

[K43]

Ah, I see. You're going to be all prepped.
Yes Sir, the ported plug is not necessary if shooting Cast Boolits or Garand friendly loads. It was originally developed for shooting heavy bullets at long range in competition (180+ grains over slow powders etc.). It became an unnecessary crutch used by those who want to shoot unnecessary commercial hunting loads in Garands. Someone will be offended by that statement, but it is true. Load to the rifle, it doesn't require hot stuff. People compete with 110 grain and 125 grain Varmint bullets at 200 yards. They don't shoot hot loads. Easy on the shoulder and quick return to sight picture in rapid fire. There's a revival of it with the John Garand matches these days.
There are some folks shooting cast in the M1 here and over at CMP forum. Also much load data that for jacketed that is relatively low recoil and Garand friendly. Nobody shoots 150g, 168g, or 175g 300 yards and under.
I have several hundred 125 grain Hornadys left over from when I switched to M1A and soon after became a Mouseketeer.
Hope you find what you are looking for in loads.

[Pirate69]

I see that you are looking at the data provided in the Lee 308 Win Die set. It does state that the maximum RL-15 load, for a minimum COAL of 2.700”, is 49.0 grains. Note that it does not specify the manufacturer and/or the style of bullet. Velocity is reported as 2919 fps.

I checked the Alliant Reloader’s Guide for 308 Win data. Alliant provides data on a Speer 150 grain SP bullet. Alliant states that the “not to exceed” load is also 49.0 grains of RL-15. The minimum COAL is also 2.700”. Reported velocity is 2919 fps. Lee may be using the Alliant data.

Both QuickLoad and GRT software programs have data for a Speer 150 grain SP (2023) bullet as well as Alliant RL-15 powder. I ran both programs to see how the QL and GRT results compare with the Lee and Alliant data. Lee does not state a barrel length but Alliant provides a barrel length of 22”. Care was taken to ensure that all the programs input parameters such as COAL, bullet length, temperature, effective case capacity and barrel length were the same. I also wanted to compare one program’s results against the other program’s results. Below is a comparison of results.

Speer 150 grain SP (2023)
Load Data---------------------Lee---------Alliant-------------QL------------------GRT
Velocity------------------------2919--------2919-------------2942----------------2910
Chamber Pressure------------????---------????--------------62,504--------------63,976
Load Ratio -------------------????---------????--------------105.7%-------------103.8%

The calculated velocities from the two models are very close to the measured velocity from Alliant. The North American SAAMI maximum pressure for the 308 Win is 62,000 psi. Both models predict pressures above the SAAMI maximum pressure.

I understand you will be using some FMJ bullets in your loads and will be starting at a much-reduced powder charge. This is wise since you will be using a bullet that is different from the bullet used in the Alliant data. Using the FMJs and the maximum given load could be problematic. I suspect the FMJs are longer than the Speer SPs used in the reload data. As an example, the Speer SP is 1.032” long. The Speer BT FMJ is 1.173” long. If the FMJs were loaded to the same COAL as the SPs, effective case capacity would be reduced, and chamber pressure will be increased. Seating the FMJ bullet 0.141” deeper in the case predicts chamber pressures well above the SAAMI maximum pressure.

Speer 150 grain BT FMJ (2018)
Load Data------------------------QL------------------GRT
Velocity-------------------------3001----------------2973
Chamber Pressure-------------68,610--------------70,699
Load Ratio --------------------110.0%-------------108.0%

Many members on this Site have stressed that you should always start low, when developing a load, and work up while looking for indications of pressure issues. This is great advice as can be seen in this example.

Have fun with your new rifle.

[Larry Gibson]

For your M1 rifle I'd suggest not loading to SAAMI 308W specification with a MAP of 62,000. The 7.62 NATO standards for M*) Ball do not reach that pressure level. Having measured the pressure of numerous lots/years of M80 Ball most all have average pressures in the 54 - 58,000 psi range. That is because the specification for the cartridge is to give a 145 - 155 gr FMJBT bullet a muzzle velocity of 2750 fps at 75 feet from the muzzle....basically a 2800 fps muzzle velocity from a 22" barrel.

Thus, I suggest loading 150 gr (or 147 gr FMJBT) to 2800 fps using AA2230, H335, H4895, BLC2, 748, etc. or similar powder. If you load any 168 or 175 MKs then H4895 or IMR 4895 is the best choice to load them to 2550 fps.

[johnho]

For your M1 rifle I'd suggest not loading to SAAMI 308W specification with a MAP of 62,000. The 7.62 NATO standards for M*) Ball do not reach that pressure level. Having measured the pressure of numerous lots/years of M80 Ball most all have average pressures in the 54 - 58,000 psi range. That is because the specification for the cartridge is to give a 145 - 155 gr FMJBT bullet a muzzle velocity of 2750 fps at 75 feet from the muzzle....basically a 2800 fps muzzle velocity from a 22" barrel.

Thus, I suggest loading 150 gr (or 147 gr FMJBT) to 2800 fps using AA2230, H335, H4895, BLC2, 748, etc. or similar powder. If you load any 168 or 175 MKs then H4895 or IMR 4895 is the best choice to load them to 2550 fps.

Excellent advice. And if you look up those powders and charges make damn sure they are for Garand loads. As already mentioned, you can find all this info at the CMP website.

[DoctorBill]

.
I looked at the CMP website. One cannot join the CMP.
Being 81+, I DO NOT have to 'prove' my Marksmanship Ability ! Ha !

326414

Also, where is the mentioned M1 Garand (.308) loading Data listed ?

Here is another question....was the M1 Garand in .308 (7.61 x 51mm)
only associated with the NAVY ?
All else was done by Civilians. Confusing.

DoctorBill

[K43]

Uh, I tried. Water and horses.
I shot a 308 Garand beginning in the 1980s. I loaded to the requirements of 7.62 in the M14 and M1A. There is data at the CMP forums. You load the same as one would for the M14/M1A rifle.
I give up.

[Pirate69]

Please don't give up. We are mentoring a gentleman whose learning curve on the 308 Garand is straight up. This is an opportunity to help him get started and hopefully keep him from making a catastrophic mistake.

[Pirate69]

DoctorBill,
It think it is being recommended that you research the posts on the CMP forum on reloading data for the M1A rifle, which is also a 308 Win. The following is an example of what you will find on the CMP forums.

https://forums.thecmp.org/forum/cmp-general/ask-each-other/reloading/213353-150-gr-load-data-for-m1a-m14

Also, this is the link to the general CMP forum that has all grades of information is the sub-forums.
https://forums.thecmp.org/

[DoctorBill]

.
I misinterpreted the comments about finding data on the CMP website.
I was expecting to find Data Tables of various powder loads for a 150 grain
military bullet, not post by post of what various shooters use.

I think I will call this thread quits now.

DoctorBill

[Pirate69]

Don't do that. You are asking the same questions that every first-time owner of a Garand is asking. I own 19 Garands, two being 308 Win, and four M1As. I learn something new almost every day. I sometimes ask questions which reflect how little I really know about reloading and varies firearms. This site has a lot of members that have an extensive knowledge of weapons and reloading. Sometimes it is forgotten that everyone is not yet to that level. Hang with us.

[Pirate69]

I think this may be the table you are looking for.

M1 Garand 308 and M1A 308 Loading Data Suggestions
https://bearblain.com/Service%20Rifle%20Loadings.html

[DoctorBill]

.
Sorry about that.

I got angry. My Bad. I have a temper and it is worse when my Blood Sugar is high.
My wife just rolls her eyes and walks away. I know my informal style of Forum
interactions pisses some people off.

As T.E. Lawrence said (in 'Lawrence of Arabia') - "it is my manner".

I just retired from teaching Chemistry for 18 years in our local community college, and often wondered at students who simply would not look thru the window I showed them.
I guess the tables are turned here.

Yes, Pirate69, THAT is exactly what I was looking for...."Official" tables of Reloading
Data for the M1 Garand .308 that won't surpass the Rifle's Capability.
NOT post by post values given by forum guys. Those are fine, but NOT what one
should accept as.....what - "gospel" !

But, just something I have ALWAYS wondered.....Just WHERE does the DATA in the
reloading manuals come from and where does what is in that "https://bearblain.com/Service%20Rifle%20Loadings.html" table originate ?
Kind of like - If the Pope says it, it MUST be OK..... How does data get into
the reloading manuals anyway ? But THAT could be a whole 'nother Thread !

I get my Rifle on the 10th of May - 2 days away. I'm tempted to take my reloads with me, in their three Enbloc Clips (24 rounds), and go immediately to the Range
on the way home and try them out Then and There !

But the more careful side of my old brain says, "Take it home....take it apart and clean
and lubricate it FIRST. Only then actually SHOOT it." Who knows WHAT is in the barrel ?
God only, knows. I can even put the leather Sling I got on it...

I am quite confident that the 38 grain Reloader 15 will cycle it and be fine. It fits right
into the data that Pirate69 gave me.....burn rates, etc.

DoctorBill

Robert A. Heinlein in the Lazarus Long Science Fiction Series.....
"Moving parts in rubbing contact require lubrication to avoid excessive wear. Honorifics and formal politeness provide lubrication where people rub together. Often the very young, the untraveled, the naive, the unsophisticated deplore these formalities as "empty," "meaningless," or "dishonest," and scorn to use them. No matter how "pure" their motives, they thereby throw sand into machinery that does not work too well at best.”

[Pirate69]

I think you will find this reference interesting. Lots of good information.
https://archive.org/details/hatchers-notebook-by-julian-s.-hatcher/page/n3/mode/2up?q=Garand+ammo

As to the source(s) of reloading data, I assume it is developed by powder manufacturers, bullet manufacturers, military, others and makes it way into the printed manuals and other references. I am sure others may have a more definitive answer as to data development and sources.

[DoctorBill]

.
I have the 49th Ed of the Lyman Reloading Handbook (2008)

and the LEE Modern Reloading 2nd Edition (2009).

Is it really worth it to spend $30 - $40 on a newer Reloading Handbook ?

If so which is best ?

DoctorBill

[Pirate69]

.
I have the 49th Ed of the Lyman Reloading Handbook (2008)

and the LEE Modern Reloading 2nd Edition (2009).

Is it really worth it to spend $30 - $40 on a newer Reloading Handbook ?

If so which is best ?

DoctorBill

This may be all you need.

https://hodgdonreloading.com/rldc/

[DoctorBill]

.
.
Wow....ya, THAT is nice !

I will put THAT website down as an Icon on my Browser.

I'd love to be able to get that program with Data on a DVD !
Then the Data could be updated annually - or so.

DoctorBill

[DoctorBill]

.
Well I am the proud owner of an M1 Garand in .308 WIN........
Got it this morning. Got home at 4 PM and passed out in my recliner.
Being 81 may not sound like anything to younger Dudes, but for me
six hours "up town" is about all I can do. It was hot today - 65° !

So - I got it home and put three 'sized' brass cartridges into it and they
fit like a glove and ejected well.

BUT - my sliding safety won't slide back - engage !
Cocked or uncocked (Trigger pulled - firing pin fired).

Am thinking, maybe it won't work until the Enbloc is in place. (?)
Don't want to put live shells in it until at the range.

Am going to run a patch thru it now. It is 65° out today.....been in the 40-50°
with rain and wind - Eastern Washington State weather. Midges are so heavy,
they swarm your head and fly up one's nose ! Ticks are heavy this Spring.
I live in the Palouse Farmland area where they grow Wheat, Barley, Oats, Rye
and Canola plants. The grass and Pine tree pollen can choke an engine filter !
I have 1.2 acres of Yard to mow and it is almost too high to cut. Excuses !

I will disassemble the M1 tomorrow and see what gives with dirt and etc.

The range is a Madhouse on weekends (open 2 - dusk 365 days) with all
the working guys who can't go weekdays. BUT - I am retired, so I go
weekdays when few are there !

I posted pics from the auction. One very beautiful thing. The stock is great !
The action is smooth - but may be better after cleaning and lubing.

I always liked a light coating of Lithium Grease.
I made a rifle Holder for cleaning. Also have a Cabelas' rifle holder from a
garage sale.

So - I'll Be Back ! More tomorrow. Pictures, too.

Any suggestions on that Safety not working would be appreciated.

BTW - The CMP case ( 50"x14"x5") weighs about 2x the rifle. One well made case !
Can one replenish the drying agent in that upper left flat Blue Plate ?

DoctorBill

PS - Hoppies #9 patch came out clean as a whistle.....

[DoctorBill]

.
Couldn't wait...

Picture of rifling - camera on Manual Focus. Click the images.

326466

Best I could do right now. Poor Depth of Focus. Need smaller aperture.

Oh well. Nice Barrel - clean. Now if only the Safety would work.....

Here it is in my homemade cleaning Stand on top of a Plastic Barrel.

326467

Wiped the chaos of my work room....disgusting !

DoctorBill

[country gent]

I believe the rifles trigger group has to be in a cocked position for the safety to engage. On some rifles it takes a pretty good "pull" on the safety tang to engage it. The safety actually engages the boss on the side of the hammer and lowers the hammer of the sear and disconnector. The disconnector holds everything actually providing the 2 stage pull. the stop you feel is when the disconnector drops the hammer to the sear and the full spring force is there. When engaging the safety you have to overcome this spring force to engage it. You may have a rough ear on the safety thats gripping more than it should. Or a safety hammer combination thats not quite compatible do to tolerance stack ups. Remember these rifles have been rebuilt tuned up by swapping parts several times. It shouldnt be a tough fix once you get the trigger group out and can see what you have.

These triggers can be setr to a very nice fine pull. Its not recommended to go below 4 1/2 lbs but done right your holding 2 1/2 pounds on the first stage and the release is another 2 lbs added on. Mine is set up like this the second stage break is only about .010 more travel. A good service rifle trigger on the garand feels much lighter than it is. Another plus is these rifles have seen enough use that they are worn in a much better fit than can be achieved by hand. Also the wear patterns are visible now.

One popular conversion was to mill out the one side of the hammer to lighten it and add a heavier spring this sped up lock time of the gun. Usually the trigger needed to be tuned again after this do to the heavier spring. My m14/m1as have this mod but not my garand. This mod is a plus in the offhand stage more so than the sitting and prone. To do this mod you need carbide cutters and a solid mill.

[obssd1958]

Not sure if you got an operations manual or any printed material with your new rifle, but the following link is a great resource for new Garand owners (and some old owners might want a refresher!):
https://www.ialegion.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/M1_Garand_Manual.pdf
The above has info you won't need, because it is written around maintenance of a rifle with a blank firing device attached, but everything else is pertinent and I like the format they use. The CMP forums also have disassembly and maintenance pages, but I don't think they are as easy to follow:
http://www.civilianmarksmanship.com/fieldstrip.html

Hope this helps!!

[DoctorBill]

Thanks obssed1958 for that manual !

DoctorBill

[DoctorBill]

.
"...has to be in a cocked position for the safety to engage. On some rifles it takes a pretty good "pull" on the safety tang to engage it." country gent

Ah so !

I cycled the action (cocked the hammer) and pushed back on the "Safety" with vigor !

The safety engaged. One does not expect a safety to require such force to be applied !

Learning more about this rifle ! I was dreading it having a problem right out of the shipping box !

DoctorBill

[country gent]

A light polish on the engaging surface will smooth it some. but having to overcome that hammer spring its going to be stiff. It should come off easier. The other is the thins area of the safety makes it feel harder also.

When you have it apart look at the engaging surface and the pin it set on for wear and roughness. Its an amazing bit of engineering as the hammer spring powers the whole unit thru cams and direct push.

[DoctorBill]

.
Was watching YouTube (streaming on our TV) about .308 Win vs 7.62x51mm NATO.


Would I be safe shooting either round in my M1 Garand ?

I don't expect to, but if I were to run into some inexpensive NATO rounds for sale,
could I safely use them in my M1 ? It was said that the NATO rounds are usually
less powerful than .308 WIN.

DoctorBill

[country gent]

Nato grade ammo is what it was meant for. Seriously if you can find some LC M852 ( the load with the knurledee case head) run some thru your rifle youll be surprised how it performs. There were 2 loads I had to work to equal in my 308 service rifles M852 and the federal match load 168 grn.

Another is if you can find military brass for the rifle it holds up better than commercial brass. The more violent extraction is hard on commercial brass.

[Larry Gibson]

For your M1 rifle I'd suggest not loading to SAAMI 308W specification with a MAP of 62,000. The 7.62 NATO standards for M*) Ball do not reach that pressure level. Having measured the pressure of numerous lots/years of M80 Ball most all have average pressures in the 54 - 58,000 psi range. That is because the specification for the cartridge is to give a 145 - 155 gr FMJBT bullet a muzzle velocity of 2750 fps at 75 feet from the muzzle....basically a 2800 fps muzzle velocity from a 22" barrel.

Thus, I suggest loading 150 gr (or 147 gr FMJBT) to 2800 fps using AA2230, H335, H4895, BLC2, 748, etc. or similar powder. If you load any 168 or 175 MKs then H4895 or IMR 4895 is the best choice to load them to 2550 fps.

Info in post #51 basically answers the question.

To be on the safe side you shouldn't shoot any commercial 308W, especially the "premium" HV loads, in your M1 Rifle because it probably is loaded to a higher psi than 7.62 NATO ball (M80). The 308W commercial loads will probably have a higher gas port pressure that may damage the M1 Rifle. Milsurp NATO spec ammo, commercial NATO spec loads and reloaded ammo to Nato spec is what you want to use.

[DoctorBill]

.
OK......I suppose I have asked most all that I wanted or need up to THIS POINT.....

This comes to mind, however......is there any way to find out which company's propellant
the gubment uses when making 7.62x51mm NATO ?
Is THAT a big "Secret" ?!

Or....who manufactures the loaded Rounds for us ? Wouldn't surprise me if CHINA makes them for us !
A bucket of worms......

Just a thought.......

DoctorBill

[country gent]

More than likely what the government is loading isnt available to reloaders other than surplus from pulled rounds. I think 7.62 x 51 was loaded with a version of 4895 or H 380 I have pulled some that was a stick powder and some with a ball powder.

The rule of thumb is noting slower than IMR 432o

4895, H380, reloader 15 and varget have all worked for me.

[Kosh75287]

If this has already been mentioned, forgive me. The loads that I kept coming across for the M1A were 43.5/IMR-4895/147-150 gr. FMJBT, and 42.5/IMR-4895/168 gr. BTHP. IF MEMORY SERVES, Winchester commercial cases and Primers (Standard Large Rifle) were used. These data are not maximum charges but are very close to the middle of the charge weight range. I do not recall the cartridge overall length (O.A.L.), but I am certain that it was at or just under 2.800". 2.795" sticks in my mind, but it has been too long since I have seen the data I recorded.
If you assemble rounds with these data using Lake City or other military cases, PLEASE take into account their slightly smaller case capacity, and adjust your starting charge weight accordingly.
Generally, you will find that it is more difficult to find a propellant that does NOT work well in .308, than finding one which does. Given the prevailing "supply" difficulties with propellants, you may be somewhat constrained on what you may use. Generally, any propellant with a burn rate between that of IMR-3031 (faster-burning) and Hodgdon Varget (slower-burning), including these, should serve you very well. Typically, faster-burning propellants tend to work best with lighter projectiles (147-168 gr.) and slower-burning propellants tend to work better with heavier projectiles (>168 gr.).
Congrats on your new acquisition, and may you find great satisfaction in shooting it!

[Larry Gibson]

DoctorBill

"This comes to mind, however......is there any way to find out which company's propellant
the gubment uses when making 7.62x51mm NATO ?
Is THAT a big "Secret" ?!"

It's no secret. However, the government gets its powder by the train load from the plant in western Florida. Used to be an Olin plant but not sure what it is now(?). Any ways, it was referred to a WC 846 and WC 848.

The WC 846 is similar in burn rate to AA 2230 and H335. In Lake City cases the average charge usually runs 42.5 gr to 43.5 gr under the 147 gr FMJBT M80 bullet. The same WC 846 was also used in M59 ammunition. It was loaded to give the bullets 2750 fps at 78 feet from the muzzle. That 78 feet is where the center of the chronograph screens were. With modern chronographs with the screens 10 - 15 feet from the muzzle velocities of 2790 fps +/- are the norm.

WC 848 had a burn rate similar to Winchester 748 or BLC 2. It was used to load M118 Special Ball using the 174 gr FMJBT "match" bullets.

"Or....who manufactures the loaded Rounds for us ? Wouldn't surprise me if CHINA makes them for us !
A bucket of worms......"

The only arsenal producing 7.62 ammunition for our military is Lake City. In the past I have used Canadian made 7.62 NATO spec ammunition (IVI headstamp) and Israeli (IMI headstamp) which was issued through our depot system.

Numerous other NATO countries have manufactured 7.62x51 ammunition to NATO specifications.

China, along with numerous other combloc nations also have been making similar 7.62x51 ammunition for quite a few years. Additionally, some third world countries have manufactured [or contracted for such] 7.62x51 ball type ammunition loaded down a bit for their FALs, CETMEs and G3s.

[SSGOldfart]

Thanks for the thread DoctorBill I've learned a thing or two that I could have known before, just not able to recall at the time I've got a new M-1 also chambered in 308win. haven't put a round through it yet. but I will soon please keep us updated on your range reports
[smilie=b:[smilie=b:

[DoctorBill]

.
Something FYI....just found this.

St Mark's Ball Powder - Ball powder propellant has been made by St. Marks Powder since 1969. St. Marks Powder is located near St. Marks, Florida. Now owned by General Dynamics (GD) Ordnance and Tactical Systems (OTS) of Reston, Virginia. Not connected to OLIN Mnfg. since 1996.

https://www.gunsandammo.com/editorial/ball-powder-st-marks-powder/462658

[Pirate69]

Thanks for the thread DoctorBill I've learned a thing or two that I could have known before, just not able to recall at the time I've got a new M-1 also chambered in 308win. haven't put a round through it yet. but I will soon please keep us updated on your range reports
[smilie=b:[smilie=b:

I, for one, learn something new every time I visit this site.

[Pirate69]

.
Couldn't wait...

Picture of rifling - camera on Manual Focus. Click the images.

326466

Best I could do right now. Poor Depth of Focus. Need smaller aperture.

Oh well. Nice Barrel - clean. Now if only the Safety would work.....

Here it is in my homemade cleaning Stand on top of a Plastic Barrel.

326467

Wiped the chaos of my work room....disgusting !

DoctorBill

Looks like you got an "early" (single slot) gas cylinder plug to go with your early receiver.

[DoctorBill]

.
Yes Pirate69....I will have to load 150 gr with moderate charges of powder.

I am a rather Half-arsed "machinist" (ha !), so I am wondering if I could make
my own adjustable gas Plug as is sold by two different manufacturers, and
save myself $50 plus shipping.

If I had the Specs for them, I think I could make one for myself. I have a Mini-Mill
and a 9 inch Hobby Lathe from ENCO. I am just not exactly sure how those
adjustable Plugs work. One has various sized threaded Ports, if I understood it
correctly. Changes Gas Volume (PV=nRT), thus the pressure on the Gas Tube
'what·cha·ma·call·it' Piston Rod. I have to try to remember the Jargon for M1's.....

DoctorBill

my cluttered "shop".....no matter how much room
one has, it is never enough (excuses).
326540

326541

[DoctorBill]

.
Just Googled the Schuster "Adjustable" Gas Plug ($50).
"Out of Stock" click picture.....

326543

The Brownell Fulton Armory Gas Plug ($18). "In stock"
Looks like CHINESE made - needs deburring !

326542

The Gunsamerica (McCann System ?) Gas Plug
https://www.garandgear.com/the-m1-garand-and-commercial-ammunition/

326544
https://www.garandgear.com/product/ported-gas-plug/

Does anyone have any experience with these devices ?

DoctorBill

[rgsumpter]

Here is a link to a video on a couple of plugs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqpqMS3tBFA

also i think the $18 plug from Brownell's is a solid one.

[DoctorBill]

.
So....with "Hot" commercial ammo, the gas pressure exceeds Mil Spec for the
Standard Issue M1 Garand......either 30-06 or .308 (7.52x51mm NATO) - yes ?

To get around this, there are Gas Tube Plugs sold that either increase the inner volume
in the Gas Tube - Thus lowering the pressure placed on the Gas Piston "OpRod"

or

Vent excess pressure OUT during cycling, thus achieving the same effect.

Is this correct ?

If this is so, which system is easier to use for

1. Non-Reloaders who purchase Ammo

2. Reloaders who want to shoot higher Mass Bullets > 150 grain.

3. Old Elmer Fudd Reloaders who want to shoot reduced loads, but
still have the Action work and cycle the Bolt.....(increased pressure).

DoctorBill............326545

[country gent]

Most vent pressure off. Not hard to make one up.

I made them for my m1a/m14s. Basically the same set up.

Set up the plug in your lathe. center drill and then drill a .157 hole thru the plug on center line.

Tap this hole 10-32 half way down or so not clear thru.

Now put a piece of round stock in the chuck and face it square tap a 10-32 hole in it blind leave in chuck as its centered. This is the fixture to drill your 10-32 set screws or inserts.

Drill every .010 or so from .030-.090. With the inserts you can adjust the force of function, ejection, and if you have access to 300 yds or farther harmonics to an extent. They are easy to change out with a allen wrench. Make a piece of flat stock with tapped holes to hold the inserts and stamp with hole size.

My one M1a has a .050 insert the other has .065 this is where they each performed best at 600 yds. You may see slight changes in accuracy when changing inserts. Both my M1As drop brass just in front of my right elbow but still on my mat.

While sporting hunting ammo with slower powders may not be over pressure it is over port pressure.

I would buy a second plug to modify.

These plugs are tough material a good starting and bottoming tap good high pressure cutting fluid ( anchor lube is very good) and patience is needed.

When you install the insert run it in and just snug into the bottom of the threads. I used allen set screws for the inserts. I believe they were 3/8" long

[DoctorBill]

.
country gent.....
In leu of buying one, can you tell me what is the plug Diameter,
length and thread pitch ? I would make the entire dooodad out
of plain old steel (maybe from a 'scrap' Bolt of sufficient diameter).

I could measure MY M1's Gas Plug, but I don't want to remove it
right now....having not shot it yet.

Wife (69) and myself (81) have both had 4+ months of what the
Doctors call "Long CoVid". I want to go shoot, but my bones
are achy today. I hope the Chinese slugs who designed this virus
are suffering Extra Long CoVid ! or are in 地狱 !

FYI - We both took LEVOFLOXACIN to cure a very persistent COUGH
that came after Long Covid. It WORKED !

This is the Rifle Range where I shoot. click image.
326546
https://svrpc.com/

DoctorBill

[country gent]

When my son comes over Ill have him bring mine out to measure but mine the cross socket not bar. but should be the same dimensions and thread. Making from scratch should be a fun little project. The plus to making it complete will be softer steel to machine and tap. The other is you wont have to reach into the slot to drill.Check your plug to make sure it isnt stainless.

[SSGOldfart]

Hey DoctorBill you might want to read "The Load" 13gr. RedDot by Ed.Harris on this site someplace.or Hensley & Gibbs site maybe someone will give you a link.or just google The Load EdHarris" You said you needed an old man load for paper targets So try 10 to 12 gr of unique with your 150 gr boolits nice easy load on the shoulder too. 10 grains is what many considered a universal load for most 30 caliber size cases. it's pretty lite shouldn't need to worry about the gas plug either.

[Delkal]

Do not modify your gas plug. It is probably original WWII and it goes for a premium. The adjustable gas plugs are a gimmick and not needed.

And stop worrying about ammo. These are not fragile rifles. Just don't buy the highest velocity premium ammo and just stick with the cheap Winchester white box or other low end ammo with a 147 FMJ.

Then go out and shoot your rifle mand have some fun.

[DoctorBill]

.
Lord God ! I would NEVER mess with the plug that comes WITH the rifle !
THAT would be a form of Heresy or Blasphemy ! Wow ! Foolish.....
like Sheet Metal Screwing a "Hilary Clinton for President" sign onto the door of a Duesenberg !

326557

I will attempt to MAKE a plug out of Bolt Metal....an old Machinist I learned
from told me that. Bolts are good metal and usually symmetrical Steel Cylinders.
And usually are found in steel scrap yards CHEAP.

Also, as to the Ed Harris thing - YES ! I had thought about that use of Unique
or 2400 in small loads - actually tried it maybe 15 years ago. I have a downloaded
file of his article. Very famous. I was always a bit hesitant - it seemed so odd.

Felt bad today, so I didn't shoot at the range. Hoping tomorrow I'll be more up
to it. Being OLD sucks ! Especially with so many viruses lurking around every store
shelf inside some meatbrain sneezing and coughing in your airspace. Masks do nothing.

DoctorBill

[SSGOldfart]

Hope you get too feeling well tomorrow, it's been raining here every day this month over 14" in the last four days lots of flooding going on in East Texas I guess I'm going to have to shoot in the rain lol or get the boat out just to get to the range

[rgsumpter]

As you mentioned you planned to reload for Your Garand and you purchased a lot of 147gr bullets I would not worry about a vented gas plug, especially as I recall that you do not plan to load hot loads.

Here is a link to Gordons Reloading tool that was given to me by another member here. https://www.grtools.de/doku.php It has a nice burn rate chart showing relative burn rates of different powders, not just a list. Also after I played with it for awhile I found you can set it up to display the pressure at both the chamber and later at any place along the barrel. Here is a load I was looking at for the 30-06 w/IMR4064. As you can see you can move your curser along the graph and it will give you the information at that point.
326558


Also here is a link to someone testing different ammo in a 30-06 M1, both commercial and military as well as a link to his spreadsheet.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOSdswZHJUc
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1oYPqfpvM0Br85p_YLKiGuZMcqFMDdOP3/view?pli=1

So I would think that as long as you don't load heavy bullets with a real slow powder and you don't load hot loads you should be fine. I would think that the only issue you would have with the reloader7 you mentioned is that it might be on the fast side and not have enough pressure at the gas port and would not cycle the action.

The issue I am having is deciding what powder to use. In normal times I would just use something like IMR4064 or something along those lines that I am familiar with. I do have plenty of CCI primers and purchased 1000 147gr bullets from the above source. I did pick up some Vihtavuori N140 and will give that a try. The issue I am having is the same as everyone else, I do not what to purchase a 1lb can mail order and do not want to order a larger can until I have tried it.

[charlie b]

Following the thread since I've been playing with the idea of making a new plug for my Garand as well.

Long Covid. Hang in there. Wife got it last Jan. She is still dealing with joint issues from it, but it is getting better. This was only a year after she got shingles and lost the hearing in one ear (shingles killed the auditory nerves on one side). Getting old sucks :)

[DoctorBill]

"Long Covid. Hang in there." Yes ! It took LEVOFLOXACIN (Doctor's Rx) to stop
an intractable bronchial cough that came with our Long CoVid....amoxicillin didn't work.

Thanks guys for all the assistance in this Thread ! I am going to the Range today and
try out my 38 gr of Reloader 15 loads. Hope it cycles the action or I have 23 other
ones to pull and add powder to. We'll see...............

Also, thanks Delkal ! Watching YouTube videos makes one believe that M1 Garands
are woosie rifles that break easily. I just hope that you are right.

DoctorBill

[Delkal]

There are millions of Garands in use for over 80 years and they shot countless billions of rounds of ammo without a problem. While there are reports of hot loads with a heavy bullet bending the op-rod I suspect most of these were from competition shooters trying to get an advantage on the 600 yard stage. They would be the ones to notice a slight bend after a match and that is why it is so publicized. I do not think you will find a commercial "cheap" load using a 147 FMJ that will cause a problem.

Later in WWII and Korea they developed a grenade launcher that would fit over the muzzle and used a cartridge with just a powder charge. They had extremely violent recoil and it was later recommended to hold the rifle at an angle and put the butt on the ground to shoot it. The recoil could be so violent that in rare cases it cracked the back of the receiver. But no one back then ever mentioned bent op rods so that should tell you something. And don't worry about the receiver cracking. This only happened with the grenade launcher and depending on the forge code on the receiver any suspect receivers were heel dipped in molten lead to anneal them during rebuild.

[charlie b]

Just an FYI. The M1 ball ammo was 174gn at ~2600fps. M2 ball was 150gn at 2740fps. If you stay at or below those levels then I would not worry.

[DoctorBill]

.
I shot the old girl ! Boy ?
Fired one shot at arms length into a 50 ft distant Berm to see if the action would
cycle. It cycled fine and tossed the case about 10 ft FORWARD of me. Expected to
the side...... Can one make it eject to the side w/o doing unnatural acts ?

That 38 gr of Reloader 15 kicks substantially with the 150 gr FMJ.

Then I set up a 15 inch Cardboard Pizza Round at 50 yards, sat down and took aim.
The rear aperture of my M1 sight could be a bit larger diameter for my old eyes.

Shot a clip of eight and came home. Six hit the target - pretty darns good for
first time out of the Box. Took Cell Phone pictures. Came home and fell asleep.

326586 click the images

Many of the Local Police and County Mounties practice at this range which has been
there a long time - when it was very unpopulated.
Civilization is moving into the area.....and complaining. Sounds like a war zone.

See next Post for More....having trouble uploading pics. Internet has been DOWN
due to Solar Storm !

DoctorBill

[DoctorBill]

Here is our Shooting Range. Been sued a lot to kill it. NOISE.
People buy near it - THEN complain and sue like at Airports.

326587

326588

326590

326591

I fired one 8 round clip. 1 rnd to try the action, 7 rnds at Target.
Shot high. Didn't want to mess with sight adjustment. Do better next time !

326592

DoctorBill

[DoctorBill]

.
THE most recent lawsuit was by a guy who lives over the other side of the far hill (North).
He came to court with a handful of FMJ bullets that he testified were in his swimming pool
and lodged in his house door frame. Many of them had no rifling grooves in them !
He lost the case, but the court made the Club Bulldose the big Berms and buy more
insurance.

The thing of claiming that bullets without rifling grooves were found was, to me,
perjury. But, I'm just an old fool. The Bulldosing cost the club $8,500 and the higher
insurance ? ? ? So the Rangemaster told me today.

326593

The guy at the far end is not dead.....prone shooting. lol

[country gent]

Well when our club had the same thing ( a developer was behind it) the bullets supposedly came from a house wall and roof, gravel driveway and lawns. again no rifling and also no distortion from impact. When this was pointed out that there were no longer smooth bore rifles and pistols all were rifled the issue was dropped.

The one we did work with was a local church pastor came and talked to us On sundays congregation was coming and going while the lines were hot. We moved start times on Sunday for matches back 1/2 hour and all was well.

[Larry Gibson]

Washington state law prohibits suits against gun ranges and airports for noise abatement. Safety is the only real concern. Had numerous instances of similar complaints when I was the president of Tacoma Rifle and Revolver Club. Always resolved in our favor.

[Ford SD]

Forward landing Brass
Some times it happens very common on the M1

I have found if it is the last round in the e-block the brass hits the hump on the oprod and tosses it forward
or is it the first one tossed forward ??

7 to the side and back 1 forward

[DoctorBill]

ALL of the 8 brass cases fell 5 - 10 ft FORWARD yesterday.

No big deal except I can't go out there to retrieve my Brass
until the RangeMaster calls "Clear" and if the clear time is
short, I have trouble finding it. Other shooters are not patient.....
they don't like to wait for some old phart to find his Brass.
You see, the area out in front of the Benches is COVERED in Brass -
maybe I'll have to color my Brass Pink to quickly find it ! Or Red....maybe Black....
326616 click image, THEN Ctrl + to enlarge
I am a reloader, so I gather up ALL my brass and take care of it !

The Enbloc Clip landed right next to me on the bench.

The 38 gr of Reloader 15 worked quite nicely.

The rifle sights were very close, a bit high at 50 yrs right
out of the "box" ! Most happy with that M1 Garand !

The front wooden handguard portion of the stock is loose.
Has about a 1 mm slop sliding back & Forth. Normal, or
does it require a shim ?

And I didn't smack my thumb even once ! I learn quickly.....lol

[country gent]

Forward and right about 2:00 is the normal ejection pattern for the garand except for the last round from a clip. This can be adjusted by clipping the ejector spring and or stoning a slightly different angle on it.
Most front hand guards are a little loose so they dont affect barrel harmonics . One of the match mods is to screw and epoxy the back metal to the hand guard then pull the sheet metal liner out.This gave better airflow around the barrel and as the op rod flexes it dosnt hit it.

One thing some shooters do is to buy a cheap bed sheet and spread it where the brass falls to catch it. A brass catcher can be made to set on the bench beside the rifle to catch it also. I have made them up. These work well but digging the clip out can be fun.

What size groups were you getting with it. Service rifles sometimes like having the sling tension on them to do the best. I tested from the bench or prone with a bag under my forward hand and the sling on in a tighter setting. This would ussually do better than of the front rest and rear bag for me.

[DoctorBill]

Thanks country_gent ! See Post #100 bottom picture.

I watched a YouTube Video that said to improve your shooting
IMMEDIATELY, to focus on the front sight. Mine is Black.
I am going to paint it white with "White Out" to see if THAT
helps.

I have Blepharitis and my vision is Near Sighted anyway !

I made Pinhole Effect Shooting Glasses - BINGO ! Works PERFECTLY !
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinhole_(optics)

I bought cheap used sunglasses in thrift stores (our Favorite haunts).
and then drilled a 1/4" hole where my eye slights when shooting.

Put them on, sight with a rifle and put a dot in the sight line
on the glasses with a Sharpie, then drill there with a 1/4" drill.
THIS is the hardest part of this....

THEN, I took some various small metal tubes, sharpened the end, and
punched various size holes in a piece of Electrical Tape for a "Pinhole Sight".
Use punches if you have them. The edges must be clean-cut to work properly.

326637

326638

So....if you are nearsighted (whatever), the Pinhole focuses the image
and helps you sight better w/o corrective lenses. You need to figure
out what size pinhole works for YOU ! If too small, image is fuzzy.

TRY IT ! Not expensive if you buy at a Thrift Store....

BTW - some shooting stores sell these under a name I can't remember.
"Merit" discs.....maybe...Lyman sight discs ? A "Peep Sight" effect.
https://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2017/06/old-eyes-optical-diopters-can-help-with-focus/

DoctorBill

[rgsumpter]

I read somewhere that a lighter load will throw the brass off to the side instead of forward. Again this is just what I have read as so far, I have been shooting HXP that I purchased when CMP had a lot of it. The HXP also throws it out at about 1 o'clock and forward.

[rgsumpter]

.

The rear aperture of my M1 sight could be a bit larger diameter for my old eyes.


DoctorBill

Not sure what rear sight you have on yours. They have some NM sights that are smaller in diameter, some with a hood and some without. I believe that all of the NM sights will have NM on them. If this is the case you can obtain a standard one to replace it.

On my M1 which is a Greek return the elevation is marked in Meters. I read somewhere that is for the M1A/M14 but not sure.

[country gent]

On the line front sights were smoked with a carbide lantern for the very darkest dullest black. this stood out and there was no glare from light as the day changed. The national match front is thinner than the standard and tapered (wider at the back and taller at the front)

The national match rear sight normally has a hood with .052 or .056 aperture, it also rotates making for the 1/2 min elevation adjustment. windage still remains 1 min clk. The standard aperture can be drilled and taped a threaded slug locktited in then drilled to the desired size.the othe mod to the battle sight that was done was to bed the slide to the base. the bottom of the gear rack was beveled off so it could set lower with a file. the base was cleaned the slide coated with several coats of release agent. epoxy was mixed and filled in the base the slide inserted and clamped down into place with vise grips. when cured it was removed and worked to slightly loosen i. this takes most of the play out of the slide turning the spring cover the rest.

[DoctorBill]

.
On smoking the Front Sight with Lamp Black (a candle does the same thing
like candling your Bullet molds)...

Depends on whether the Target is Dark or Light.....you want contrast.

For white targets - Black sight. For dark target - White front sight.

I'll try the "White-Out" first, then go from there. Many Pistol Sights are
white dot type. Depends on what works for YOU, as does everything....


I bought the HODGDEN "2024 Basic Reloading Manual" for $5. uuummmhhhh.....
https://shop.hodgdon.com/2024-basic-reloading-manual/

You can get the SAME data off THEIR WEBSITE ON the Internet.

I got the varying hole size rear peepsight back years ago for my Sharps 45-70 Quigley Repro Rifle. My peepsight hole diameter has to be larger that standard for ME to see properly, or it gets cobweb-like patterns over the target.
Different strokes for different folks.

I was into late 1800's Black Powder Cartridge rifles for a while.
I have threads on them all over this Forum under "DoctorBill".....
most all the pictures are lost because the PhotoBucket site is gone.
https://castboolits.gunloads.com/search.php?searchid=11123635

I have a .577 Black Powder Breech Loading English SNIDER rifle.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snider%E2%80%93Enfield

My favorite of ALL rifles is my English 1876 .577-450 Martini Henry Zulu Rifle.
Paper patched 523 gr Cast .45 cal Lead Bullet over 50 gr Black Powder.
(Should be 80 gr compressed load - but I'm a wussie....kicks enough with 50 gr.)
Kicks like a Shotgun. Very Accurate. Used for Cape Buffalo and Elephant
besides WAR.
John Henry Patterson used a Martini .577-450 to kill the second of the famous Man-Eating Lions of Tsavo. ("The Ghost and the Darkness" movie, which caused me to obtain a Ruger #1 in 45-70). OCD.

I guess I have little else to discuss now. I've rambled ALL OVER on this
Thread.... It has been Fun and enlightening, guys.....Thank you !

DoctorBill

[DoctorBill]

.
Has anyone TRIED that Ed Harris use of Alliant 2400 in the M1 Garand - in either
30-06 or .308 ?

I have plenty of 2400 powder (kinda old)......

DoctorBill

Post Script: I had some fairly old smokeless powder (name forgotten) that I got in an estate sale, about 20 years ago, that smelled STRONGLY of Baby Barf mixed with Cat Pee......Hideous.
I poured it out (about a third of a pound) on my gravel driveway (upwind of it) and ignited it. Burned just like any other smokeless powder !

I read somewhere that old Surplus Egyptian 8mm Mauser rounds smelled so bad when fired that guys downwind complained quite a bit. could old Cordite stink ? Never saw any or fired it. Extruded as long "Cords".

[Delkal]

.
Has anyone TRIED that Ed Harris use of Alliant 2400 in the M1 Garand - in either
30-06 or .308 ?

I have plenty of 2400 powder (kinda old)......

DoctorBill

Post Script: I had some fairly old smokeless powder (name forgotten) that I got in an estate sale, about 20 years ago, that smelled STRONGLY of Baby Barf mixed with Cat Pee......Hideous.
I poured it out (about a third of a pound) on my gravel driveway (upwind of it) and ignited it. Burned just like any other smokeless powder !

I read somewhere that old Surplus Egyptian 8mm Mauser rounds smelled so bad when fired that guys downwind complained quite a bit. Cordite ?

No. And don't. 2400 is now a precious powder that hasn't been available for years so save it for something more appropriate like high end pistols or 22 hornets. Use the rifle powders with the appropriate burning rates we have been talking for dozens of posts for a Garand.


And always throw away any powder that smells acidic. Use it for fertilizing your garden.

[charlie b]

If I had access to a supply of 2400 I would use it in my .308.

It is position sensitive for 1800fps loads but it can be very accurate.

[elmacgyver0]

There are millions of Garands in use for over 80 years and they shot countless billions of rounds of ammo without a problem. While there are reports of hot loads with a heavy bullet bending the op-rod I suspect most of these were from competition shooters trying to get an advantage on the 600 yard stage. They would be the ones to notice a slight bend after a match and that is why it is so publicized. I do not think you will find a commercial "cheap" load using a 147 FMJ that will cause a problem.

Later in WWII and Korea they developed a grenade launcher that would fit over the muzzle and used a cartridge with just a powder charge. They had extremely violent recoil and it was later recommended to hold the rifle at an angle and put the butt on the ground to shoot it. The recoil could be so violent that in rare cases it cracked the back of the receiver. But no one back then ever mentioned bent op rods so that should tell you something. And don't worry about the receiver cracking. This only happened with the grenade launcher and depending on the forge code on the receiver any suspect receivers were heel dipped in molten lead to anneal them during rebuild.

I may be wrong, but I thought the action was locked shut when launching grenades. That is why the gas plug has the funny little valve built into it.
If this is not the case, why the valve?

[Delkal]

I may be wrong, but I thought the action was locked shut when launching grenades. That is why the gas plug has the funny little valve built into it.
If this is not the case, why the valve?

The gas plug vents some of the gas but the bolt still comes back hard when firing a grenade. There is no way I know of to lock the action shut. The newer gas plug with the poppet valve had a larger hole in front so the grenade launcher could fit. You could not could attach a launcher with the original solid gas cylinder lock screw. That would have been really bad.

[DoctorBill]

.
There are MANY, Many sites where Alliant 2400 is sold now......It is usually
"Out of Stock"......but is made and sold. Look them up.
I found these sites advertizing 2400.....Midway, Cabelas, Sportsman's Warehouse,
Powder Valley, Brownells, Natchez .....on and on.

326683 Alliant Website

I picked up over 3 lbs in about 6 months by placing want ads on our local Gun Trader Site.

326667

DoctorBill

[DoctorBill]

.
Speaking of buying powder from other shooters, the possibility of obtaining a couple of pounds of Hodgden BL-C(2) Ball Powder
has come up on our local Gun Trader website at $40 / lb. Good powder for .308 and/or 7.62x51 NATO.

326688 326689

I would try a reduced load. With BALL powder........with a cotton fiber fill.

Stocking up for 'Hard Times" - and NO sales Tax......$35 savings over any store (plus no shipping).

DoctorBill