Problems with 30-30

[helice]

:neutral:I tried using a Lyman 311466 in the 94AE Trapper. Crimped it in a groove such that the gas check was at the base of the neck. When I chamber it the rifling imprints heavily on the bullet. Is the 466 just not intended for the 94 Winchester? My old Lyman loading manual listed it for the 30-30. Are the throats on the Angle Eject Winchesters shorter than before? Help me out Guys and Keep Writin', I'm Learnin'. Helice

[Calamity Jake]

Many possibilites here:oversize boolet nose or seated to long, short throat and or undersize bore in the rifle. First thing, slug bore/throat area to get size, then size boolets to fit or just seat the 466 a little deeper, it doesn't hurt a thing for the GC to be in boiler room.

[sundog]

Helice, I am familiar with a 50s vintage Win 94 in 30-30 that will not chamber a Ly 311291 when case is within SAAMI specs and crimped in the crimp groove. Apparently a short or tight throat, we never investigated. The 31141 feeds and functions fine, the nose configuration is, of course, slightly different. I've seen several Win 94s that will feed and function the 311291 with no problem.

The RD 323-170-FN loads a tad deep in my Win 94 32 Win Spl in order to chamber, but it shoots good, so, that's what it is.

If it shoots good loaded a little deeper, fine. Drive on.

[helice]

Thanks for your quick replies. I've always functioned under the assumption that the gas check should be inside the case neck. Is this not true? Won't the boolit base obturate inside the case causing increased chamber pressure? Keep Writin', I'm learnin'. Helice

[felix]

No enough to matter in the 30,32,35,37-30 with typical appropriate powders for full load and boolits. ... felix

[Bret4207]

No, there's no problem with the boolit extending into the powder space, unless of course you need that space for powder! Obturation is a funny thing. Of course a lot of what we say is theory, but it seems to depend on a lot of variables. What alloy, what load, what cartridge....and then it depends on the particular gun after that. So depending on the alloy and load you use there may be NO obturation to start with. IOW-It's not a given that there will be any obturation. If there is...well, you start low and work up right? You'll see pressure signs as you go, if there are any. For that matter, when you think about it and speaking theoretically, if the base is below the neck why would the pressure make it obturate there? The obturation, if any, should take place within the neck and throat are according to theory. It's not like all the pressure aims itself at the boolits base as it hangs down below the necks and bumps it up.

I believe the initial reason the "boolit below the neck" idea was considered bad was due more to powder contamination from lube.

[Larry Gibson]

If the alloy is hard enough you can have the GC below the case neck without undue problems from "riviting". Riviting does in fact occur and is detrimental to accuracy even in a M94. It most often happens with softer alloys and faster powders. Powder conamination from the lube is also a problem as Bret mentions. Another consideration in days of old was with Lyman GCs. The non-crimp on GCs could and would fall off the base of the bullet inside the case. If I am seating a bullet so all of the GC is below the case neck I'll use a powder that takes a dacron filler. I've no problems then with riviting, powder contamination and since most of the GCs these days are crimp on (even my own home made ones are on tight) these days there's no worry of the Gc falling off inside the case.

Larry Gibson

[helice]

I am always amazed by the knowledge of you men. My practice loads are usually Red Dot or 700X somewhere around 8 grains. This 94AE is new to me and I haven't fired a j&#%eted bullet in this particular gun nor do I intend to. The 311316 (118 gr) works well even at 1900'/s but that boolit is short and I haven't worried about a "dangeling gas check" there. Would like to find a 30-30 boolit that had some weight (165-175) that I could get up to 1900-1950'/s. I hope to hunt pigs with it in March. Going to seat some deeper and try 'em out. My thanks and keep writin', I'm learnin'. Helice

[Jon K]

helice,

Lyman 311041 fits your needs and the nose is designed to fit the 30-30.

Jon

[Bret4207]

If the alloy is hard enough you can have the GC below the case neck without undue problems from "riviting". Riviting does in fact occur and is detrimental to accuracy even in a M94. It most often happens with softer alloys and faster powders. Powder conamination from the lube is also a problem as Bret mentions. Another consideration in days of old was with Lyman GCs. The non-crimp on GCs could and would fall off the base of the bullet inside the case. If I am seating a bullet so all of the GC is below the case neck I'll use a powder that takes a dacron filler. I've no problems then with riviting, powder contamination and since most of the GCs these days are crimp on (even my own home made ones are on tight) these days there's no worry of the Gc falling off inside the case.

Larry Gibson

Larry- the "riveting" idea always puzzled me. I know theory has it that it happens, but here's my problem- What makes the base of the boolit "rivet"? That's the idea as I understand it, that the base and section within the case swell up. Well, why? Why would the pressure, which I would assume is fairly equal around the exposed portion cause it to rivet? I can understand the idea of the boolit obturating as it is caught between the leade and case, but why do we think the exposed portion would rivet within the case? Unless the pressure is directed at the base off the boolit, and I have no reason to think it is, then there should be no riveting as the pressure is rising throughout the case. Since this riveting idea is limited to bottleneck cases I thought of the shoulder directing pressure at the exposed portion, but that would seem to be more inclined to reduce the diameter if anything.

What am I missing?

[bobk]

Pardon my inserting my WAG in here, but I've been reading and rereading this thread. I think that what might be happening is at the instant of ignition, the pressure pushes the boolit forward, but tries to compress lengthwise. The unsupported base of the boolit does not have the neck to limit the radial expansion, and if checked, the check does not expand, so the lead bulges out to the side. Then it has to enter the neck, but it has to swag down to do so, and pressure spikes.

What do you think, Larry?

Bob K

[Bret4207]

Yeah Bob, that's the theory, but how can it happen? If the boolit is in the neck then the gas pressure is directed at the base and I can see some obturation occurring. But if the base is just hanging there what force is directed at the base to make it rivet? Makes no sense to me. The pressure doesn't push the boolit forward so to speak. The pressure raises and the case expands, the boolit is the one part of the case/gun combo that can move easily so it does. But the pressure isn't directed at the base because the base is outside the neck.

Like I said, makes no sense to me.

[runfiverun]

the exposed base is the weakest link here,also the softest and something has to move/give.
primer,held by bolt.
case, held by sidewalls.
nose of boolit, jammed into the rifling.
maybe it isn't "riveting" but it might just be being bent in a groove or the area ahead of the check.
the grooves do compress and release lube in the bbl,why not the chamber where the pressure is the highest?
i would [and do] use the rcbs 150,fn. if i was really worried about it.
but i don't like the boolit in the case either.

[helice]

Hey guys keep writin', I'm still learnin'. Its too bad we can't crawl down in there and watch it all happen. That is apart from the heat and the pressure and the noise. To bad its all theoretical. Helice

[helice]

I don't know exactly where I got the idea that a check should'nt hang free below the case neck. It might have been from Veral's book but I can't be sure. The idea has made loading cast a pain for me. I have a couple 30 caliber rifles each with a different length of neck and the crimp groove doesn't seem to fit any one such that the check is at the base of the neck. 30-30 neck length is .477", 308W is .303", 7.62x54R is .350", 30-06 is .385", 300 H&H is .371". (Thank the Lord for Rbt. Lee & his Factory Crimp Dies.
Come to think of it I've never seen a rifle boolit mould advertisement expressing the base to crimp groove dimension and I would think that dimension would be important if this riviting concept is true. I like the fact that Ranch Dog tells me what cartridge he designed the boolit to fit. I assume that his 30-30 boolit has a crimp groove less than or some where close to .477" from the base. Is any of this makin' any sense or am I just doin'[smilie=b:
Keep Writin', I'm Learnin. Helice:-)

[Slowpoke]

If you really want to use that boolit in that rifle with the base in the neck, then find out what your bore measures.

Then get Buckshot to make you a nose size die that works in your lubrisizer, send him a few boolits and tell him the size of your bore.

(You might live close enough to hand deliver them.)

End of problem.

Personally that boolit would be my last choice for a hunting boolit.

good luck

[Larry Gibson]

Pardon my inserting my WAG in here, but I've been reading and rereading this thread. I think that what might be happening is at the instant of ignition, the pressure pushes the boolit forward, but tries to compress lengthwise. The unsupported base of the boolit does not have the neck to limit the radial expansion, and if checked, the check does not expand, so the lead bulges out to the side. Then it has to enter the neck, but it has to swag down to do so, and pressure spikes.

What do you think, Larry?

Bob K


Bob, I think you are correct.

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

Yeah Bob, that's the theory, but how can it happen? If the boolit is in the neck then the gas pressure is directed at the base and I can see some obturation occurring. But if the base is just hanging there what force is directed at the base to make it rivet? Makes no sense to me. The pressure doesn't push the boolit forward so to speak. The pressure raises and the case expands, the boolit is the one part of the case/gun combo that can move easily so it does. But the pressure isn't directed at the base because the base is outside the neck.

Like I said, makes no sense to me.

Bret

The pressure does indeed "push the bullet forward". The expansion you speak of is the "pushing", just a semantical difference of the terms. It also is not "theory". I have seen the results of riviting on recovered bullets. There is also a picture published in the NRA cast bullet publications that show, on a recovered bullet, the adverse effects on seating the bullets below the case neck. This is the reason I always recommend not doing it. If one has to then I recommend a medium/slow burning powder, dacron filler and harder alloy. Note; the seating the GC so that it isn't entirely below the case mouth seems to negate the riviting. Also the deep into the case the base of the bullet is the greater the adverse effect will be when it happens.

On page 23 of the Cast Bullets Supplement #1 there is a picture of the adverse affects of gas cutting on bullet seated 1/10" deep into the case.

Larry Gibson

[Bret4207]

Doesn't make sense. Why would the base swell? Why would the force be directed at the base to cause it to swell in one direction only? The pressure increases within all the case, not just he area behind the base. IOW the pressure should be equal on the exposed sides as well as the base. By that way of thinking wouldn't the pressure be equal, more or less, along all the exposed portion and the pressure at the base be negated by the pressure at the sides? It's not like in the neck where the pressure is directed at the base. If anything, I would think the pressure would be highest at the point of the shoulder. What direction of pressure there is would be directed at the side of the exposed portion at the boolit/neck juncture. Why wouldn't that peen the section there smaller? If I follow the theory that's just as likely.

I don't know, maybe I just don't get it.

I'm afraid I either don;t have the Cast Bullets Supplement or I've mislaid it, but I know the type of pic you're speaking of. I do have to ask how you can see the results of riveting on a boolit Larry? How can you tell that from normal obturation?