Cart before the horse? Have a barrel blank...

[Barry54]

I need to draw on the knowledge of the group. I bought a 24” 1-3/8” diameter barrel blank and want to keep as much of the length and diameter as reasonably possible. My buddies tease me about wanting a “tractor axle” barrel.

My plan was a barrel stub on a single shot break action, but I’ve struck out twice going that route. One fellow has passed away and the other wanted to chamber for 38 special instead of 9mm. I’m about 99% sold on 9x19 and 1% for 380acp with thoughts of reaming to 9mm later.

If someone has lugs and could make it into an Encore barrel, I’d be happy as a hog in slop!

What platform would you pick to make it happen?
Thanks in advance!

[jdgabbard]

Barrel lugs for the Encore can be found online. I think there are a few places to buy them. As for someone willing to do the work, no clue. We have precious few real gunsmiths in Oklahoma, and the cost of having such work done is mostly prohibitive: as single barrel could cost upwards of $400-500, which in my mind is just not worth the effort for something like 9mm, 380acp or 38spl. Especially when you can do like I did and buy a 18" chamber insert and get great results. See this thread, pay attentions to pg2 towards the bottom: https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?461767-An-Alternative-to-the-30-Badger-30-Reece

In short, you can get a very accurate solution fairly cheap. If you were doing something with a unique wildcat, it'd probably be worth it to have a barrel made. But for something like 9mm, 380acp, or 38spl you're better off going this route I'd think...

[Hannibal]

Any particular reason you want such a long, heavy barrel for a pistol cartridge? It won't be very nice to carry, for sure.

[Barry54]

Any particular reason you want such a long, heavy barrel for a pistol cartridge? It won't be very nice to carry, for sure.

Yes there is! I’m going for low muzzle pressure. 24” was the longest I could find.
Plus, I like heavy guns and light triggers...

[Barry54]

Tiny powder space, tiny powder charge. Deep seated heavy boolet loafing along at a subsonic pace.
Hence the rejection of the 38 special case.

[Barry54]

“You don’t want that”
I still remember an old auto repairman telling me that once. It burned me up!
I suppose it was his condensed version of “I don’t think you need that” or “it isn’t what I would choose” but the words he selected never have set well with me.

I upgraded to a camshaft with a little lope in it. (My very first V8 vehicle) l didn’t own a timing light back then and asked him for help after I did the camshaft swap. He said it sounds like it’s missing. I never asked him for help again.

[Shawlerbrook]

I would recommend fellow member John Taylor once you decide on your project.

[country gent]

I would really think this thru as 1 3/8" will be bigger than most receivers and barrel stubs leaving a step to deal with. A slight taper will make it much more appealing and move the center of gravity back for a more comfortable carry / balance point.
Im thinking even on a single shot rifle that barrel contour and length is going to end up close to 15-16 lbs with wood and sights/scope.
Fluting the blank would also lighten it with out losing the dia lightening it some.

[elmacgyver0]

People who want to do strange projects should invest in a lathe and mill.
That is what I did.
I do some really strange things.

[BK7saum]

Well, you would have a stepped barrel of you proceed with an encore. The Encore breech uses a barrel diameter of approximately 0.997". You would need to have the breech or entire barrel turned to about an inch.

[Barry54]

I would really think this thru as 1 3/8" will be bigger than most receivers and barrel stubs leaving a step to deal with. A slight taper will make it much more appealing and move the center of gravity back for a more comfortable carry / balance point.
Im thinking even on a single shot rifle that barrel contour and length is going to end up close to 15-16 lbs with wood and sights/scope.
Fluting the blank would also lighten it with out losing the dia lightening it some.

If I were to add lead weight in the stock and forend, would it be better to secure it with Accra-glass or any ol two part epoxy?

[Barry54]

People who want to do strange projects should invest in a lathe and mill.
That is what I did.
I do some really strange things.

This is probably the best advice so far.

I should have bought a tire machine when I was 18. It would have paid for it’s self over the years.

[Barry54]

The only concern I have at the moment is if this comes together as a break action and some hammerhead opens the action and lets the barrel flop down unsupported.

A bolt action in 223 class would be close on the bolt face for 9mm. This is another consideration for chambering to 380.

[Barry54]

325574

Here’s a 200 grain Lee seated in a 9mm case.

[country gent]

What weight are you looking for? My match rifles ( NRA high power) are in the 13 lb range and thats a heavy rifle I have seen long range rifles (1000 yds) that were in the 20 lb range but those are only shot prone. Even prone they are tiring.

To weight / balance my service rifles I poured shot in the traps till I had what I desired then poured it out and mixed with a thin long cure epoxy and poured it back in I mixed the shot and resin thoroughly then added the hardener and mixed. This gave a very even mix and the most working time. on a stub gun the fore end will need a pocket cut in it for the shot epoxy mix possibly two pockets depending on the attachment method.

My AR10 weights in at 14 lbs and is almost to heavy for the off hand stages. My bolt gun in 243 is 13 lbs and with the tubbs stock almost ideal. both are 26" barrels.

A friend had his M1A up around 22 lbs and very few could shoot it from any position but prone.

[Barry54]

Side tracked...
I want this to send lead down range. I’m not after a certain weight. I’m looking for an action to make this happen.

Thought about an AR but they are blowback in 9mm and don’t use a separate barrel extension, so my current diameter won’t accept a barrel nut.

[Moleman-]

It can be done with an AR, but the barrel nut will be more or less captive. I had a 223 heavy barrel like that where you couldn't take the barrel nut off without removing the extension or turning down the barrel. It's really too much weight for the aluminum upper and as far as I know no one make a heavy steel flattop upper. You're basically carrying the barrel as the action is lighter. Thread your barrel for a lugless barrel extension like this one which was made from a piece of a barrel drop. Had it on an A1 upper for years, but eventually shortened it for a SBR lower. The seam is on the edge of the "Sten" copy feed ramp.

[Barry54]

It can be done with an AR, but the barrel nut will be more or less captive. I had a 223 heavy barrel like that where you couldn't take the barrel nut off without removing the extension or turning down the barrel. It's really too much weight for the aluminum upper and as far as I know no one make a heavy steel flattop upper. You're basically carrying the barrel as the action is lighter. Thread your barrel for a lugless barrel extension like this one which was made from a piece of a barrel drop. Had it on an A1 upper for years, but eventually shortened it for a SBR lower. The seam is on the edge of the "Sten" copy feed ramp.

That’s thinking outside the box!
Thank you!! It is something to consider for sure. That route would be fast and inexpensive to get going. I think I’d rather have a locked breach vs blowback, but maybe just a super heavy buffer might work?

Plus I have a 20 MOA riser sitting in the parts drawer all lonely.

[Tracy]

I would probably use an H&R single shot action. Easy to find, inexpensive, and they work well.

[deltaenterprizes]

I am working on a Spanish Destroyer Carbine in 9mm Luger!
Bolts are unavailable so I’m making one, actually 3.
Long drawn out project!

[JimB..]

Not sure what you’re trying to accomplish. A heavy barrel won’t reduce muzzle pressure, and a long barrel won’t be as effective at doing so as adjusting the powder charge. Low pressure means low velocity, I imagine a 158gr 9mm subsonic round will barely make it out of a 24” barrel.

But, doesn’t mean it can’t be a fun project. Me, I’d back bore that barrel about 16” and then put a cap on it, that’ll give you the look you want, the pressure you want, and drop half the weight. Worried about NFA, don’t cap it.

[Barry54]

Not sure what you’re trying to accomplish. A heavy barrel won’t reduce muzzle pressure, and a long barrel won’t be as effective at doing so as adjusting the powder charge. Low pressure means low velocity, I imagine a 158gr 9mm subsonic round will barely make it out of a 24” barrel.

But, doesn’t mean it can’t be a fun project. Me, I’d back bore that barrel about 16” and then put a cap on it, that’ll give you the look you want, the pressure you want, and drop half the weight. Worried about NFA, don’t cap it.

Post 4. I want low muzzle pressure.
Again I’m not trying to get this lighter. What have I said to make people think that?
I’m not trying to skirt any nfa rules nonsense. 24” barrels are a fairly standard length. Or at least they were once upon a time.

I respectfully disagree back boring 16” into the 24” barrel will effectively give me a shorter barrel and increase the muzzle pressure.

I never said anything about a look I want. Where did you come up with that???

[Hannibal]

People who want to do strange projects should invest in a lathe and mill.
That is what I did.
I do some really strange things.

Here's your answer Barry.

[Barry54]

Here's your answer Barry.

You are correct.
I’m just amazed at the assumptions when I thought I asked clear questions...

Currently I like the thought of the captured nut on the barrel for an ar, but I dislike the aluminum upper receiver plan. I like the thought of a steel bolt action rifle being sturdy. I have a concern about someone carelessly opening a brake action and causing damage with the large bull barrel.

[Moleman-]

There's also the Rock Island 22TMC rifle, rebarreled to 9mm. It comes in walnut stock and a tactical version. I'm good at spending other peoples money.

[Barry54]

There's also the Rock Island 22TMC rifle, rebarreled to 9mm. It comes in walnut stock and a tactical version. I'm good at spending other peoples money.

Thanks. I’ll look into it. Could be a head start to get me going!

[dverna]

Just curious as I cannot offer constructive help with your build.

What is the advantage of low muzzle pressure? I have not seen muzzle pressure as a criteria before.

[JimB..]

Your question was about selecting a platform, so I’d suggest the H&R single shot for the reasons stated above.

But what I was trying to get to was an understanding of what you’re trying to accomplish, and “low muzzle pressure” isn’t a goal. If that really is all you care about, then just port the barrel starting a few inches in front of the chamber, ta-da zero muzzle pressure…but I’m guessing that isn’t your goal.

Your project is odd, and that’s great, but why not explain why you’re considering what you’re considering? As you’ve explained it, you’re not going to achieve anything that can’t already be done with a stock handi rifle or contender and a 9mm or 38/357 barrel. You’re intentionally adding bulk, length and weight that seem to achieve nothing. I assume that you’re not striving to accomplish nothing, so can you explain what you’re chasing?

But if it’s a secret that’s fine to and I’ll just stick with answering the question you asked.

[Barry54]

Low muzzle pressure correlates to low blast. Won’t disturb the neighbors who moved from the city if they have their windows closed. I’m just looking a more pleasant shooting experience. Nothing secret. Just a new project.

[Barry54]

Your question was about selecting a platform, so I’d suggest the H&R single shot for the reasons stated above.

But what I was trying to get to was an understanding of what you’re trying to accomplish, and “low muzzle pressure” isn’t a goal. If that really is all you care about, then just port the barrel starting a few inches in front of the chamber, ta-da zero muzzle pressure…but I’m guessing that isn’t your goal.

Your project is odd, and that’s great, but why not explain why you’re considering what you’re considering? As you’ve explained it, you’re not going to achieve anything that can’t already be done with a stock handi rifle or contender and a 9mm or 38/357 barrel. You’re intentionally adding bulk, length and weight that seem to achieve nothing. I assume that you’re not striving to accomplish nothing, so can you explain what you’re chasing?

But if it’s a secret that’s fine to and I’ll just stick with answering the question you asked.

“Seem to achieve nothing”
Ahh. Glad you asked! The added length lowers muzzle pressure.
It doesn’t need to be heavy. I just bought a heavy blank and I want the weight.

[JimB..]

Low muzzle pressure correlates to low blast. Won’t disturb the neighbors who moved from the city if they have their windows closed. I’m just looking a more pleasant shooting experience. Nothing secret. Just a new project.

An admirable goal.

In addition to your design, consider playing with light charges of titegroup under a standard or light weight bullet for caliber. A subsonic 9mm 90gr or 115 gr bullet with a powder that’s consumed in the first 25% of the barrel should be pretty quiet.

[Barry54]

Thanks!

I’ve started with 1.2 grains of a fast powder. Worked down to 0.8 grains. Velocity got erratic. A member here with quick load ran some numbers for me.
Shortening the oal increases pressure. So I’ll “work up” by seating deeper.

[JimB..]

I think that’s the right approach, in fact I was guessing that 1gr of TG under a 115gr LRN seated flush is probably close to what you want. Just don’t seat down into the web of the case as that may either swell the case or deform the bullet.

You could also do this easily with a DEWC in a 38spcl case, the advantage being the availability of published load data.

[Tracy]

I get where you're coming from. If you don't want a break action, how about an old Remington Rolling Block? IMO that would be a great choice.
Or, a Savage bolt action. Some of them are pretty cheap, and there are all sorts of factory and aftermarket parts for them, including some excellent triggers. Barrels are easy to swap, too. So you could also have a .223 (or whatever) barrel to swap when you want to. In fact I would probably look for a short action Savage in .223; that way you already have a .223 barrel. From what I've seen you can probably find a complete rifle for about the same price as just an action.

I would probably use a .380 chambering. I know 9mm brass is cheaper, but .380 is cheap too. Plus it's easier to reload with its straight wall case vs. the 9x19's tapered case. And at low pressure, those straight cases should last a looooong time.

[Barry54]

I think that’s the right approach, in fact I was guessing that 1gr of TG under a 115gr LRN seated flush is probably close to what you want. Just don’t seat down into the web of the case as that may either swell the case or deform the bullet.

You could also do this easily with a DEWC in a 38spcl case, the advantage being the availability of published load data.

I’ll be going out into no mans land with the loads. The objective is to get 100% case fill by seating the boolet deep. Pretty sure I can’t seat deep enough in 38 special without going up to 250 grain or heavier projectiles. And then there’s no published data there anyway.

[dverna]

Before investing a lot of money it might be wise to check the twist rate on the barrel you have. Check if the bullet length you want to use will stabilize at the lower velocity. It seems you are going to be in the 600 fps range rather than 1000 fps range of most subsonic 9mm loads.

Have you considered adding a suppressor $350-500 (plus $200 tax stamp) to a .22LR. You will have a more accurate platform that is cheaper to shoot. It will be quieter than a long barreled 9mm and more neighbor friendly.

As others have mentioned a front heavy gun that weighs 15 lbs will not going to be fun to use.

[JimB..]

I’ll be going out into no mans land with the loads. The objective is to get 100% case fill by seating the boolet deep. Pretty sure I can’t seat deep enough in 38 special without going up to 250 grain or heavier projectiles. And then there’s no published data there anyway.

Help me out again, why are you targeting 100% case fill? With a fast powder that creates a bunch of pressure problems in a hurry. Also, as I said above I’d go for lighter weight bullets even if you have to seat them below the case mouth, or just trim the case to create your very own wildcat.

[Barry54]

Help me out again, why are you targeting 100% case fill? With a fast powder that creates a bunch of pressure problems in a hurry. Also, as I said above I’d go for lighter weight bullets even if you have to seat them below the case mouth, or just trim the case to create your very own wildcat.

I’m trying to achieve lowest muzzle pressure possible. Seating the boolet against the powder helps according to quick load. Get a copy and play with it. I think it’s worth the price I paid.

Yes. I’m aware seating deep drastically raises pressure.

[Barry54]

I get where you're coming from. If you don't want a break action, how about an old Remington Rolling Block? IMO that would be a great choice.
Or, a Savage bolt action. Some of them are pretty cheap, and there are all sorts of factory and aftermarket parts for them, including some excellent triggers. Barrels are easy to swap, too. So you could also have a .223 (or whatever) barrel to swap when you want to. In fact I would probably look for a short action Savage in .223; that way you already have a .223 barrel. From what I've seen you can probably find a complete rifle for about the same price as just an action.

I would probably use a .380 chambering. I know 9mm brass is cheaper, but .380 is cheap too. Plus it's easier to reload with its straight wall case vs. the 9x19's tapered case. And at low pressure, those straight cases should last a looooong time.

I know nearly nothing about a rolling block. It sounds romantic though.

A bolt action savage is a great candidate. 380 brass might fit into the 223 bolt?

[Barry54]

Before investing a lot of money it might be wise to check the twist rate on the barrel you have. Check if the bullet length you want to use will stabilize at the lower velocity. It seems you are going to be in the 600 fps range rather than 1000 fps range of most subsonic 9mm loads.

Have you considered adding a suppressor $350-500 (plus $200 tax stamp) to a .22LR. You will have a more accurate platform that is cheaper to shoot. It will be quieter than a long barreled 9mm and more neighbor friendly.

As others have mentioned a front heavy gun that weighs 15 lbs will not going to be fun to use.

True words of wisdom. I should check the twist rate. I know what I ordered, but I should check it.

Pretty good guess on velocity. I don’t remember but 700 FPS comes to mind from quick load.

I’ve been exposed to three different people and suppressors. Two suppressors disappointed me. I loved the third one! Great on 300 Whisper subsonic. Amazing on 22 long rifle, even on a pistol!! I’d be interested in one but all the permission and travel restrictions and such is more of a deterrent than the $1,100 price tag.

Back to this again. I think a 15 to 40 pound rifle will be great sitting on sandbags and shooting out back!

[dverna]

If you build a 15-40 lb rifle, you will not want a break open.

[JimB..]

I’m trying to achieve lowest muzzle pressure possible. Seating the boolet against the powder helps according to quick load. Get a copy and play with it. I think it’s worth the price I paid.

Yes. I’m aware seating deep drastically raises pressure.

I haven’t played with quick load, but I don’t expect that their algorithm fully contemplates what you’re contemplating. Then again, maybe it does.

[Barry54]

I don’t trust the program as much as some people might. I’ve seen it show different pressure and higher charges than published data. I worked down under 1 grain without the program. Seating deeper is what I was missing.
The program shows dramatic pressure changes with deep seated boolets and minuscule charges. I intend to make very small changes and probably at least ten loads for one test sample. I don’t know that I’ll have the courage to go to the limit the program predicts.

[Jedman]

It sounds like to me if you were to find a H&R / NEF Ultra Slug Gun model SBS 980 and have a 24”liner barrel turned to insert in the 12 ga. you would have pretty close to what you want to make.
The USG has a very heavy 24” barrel already and with a 12 ga. Liner it would even be heavier plus you would have 2 calibers 12 ga. Rifled bore plus 9 mm or whatever you want the liner chambered in.
A working extractor would be hard to make for it but you are not looking for a fast repeating rifle anyhow so it could be made simply as a finger nail eject.

Jedman