Lookin' for loads, in all the wrong places? 44 Special

[WDW44]

New here. Not sure this is how to go about my search.

I have always had an affinity for the .44 caliber. I have loaded many rounds for 44 magnums over the years. NOW that I have turned 70 years ofr age I have settled down to .44 Specials. I carry a Charter Arms Bulldog daily, and while I have owned many magnums but I have very little info about the Special 44.

I am looking for suggested loads for the caliber using cast wad-cutters for EDC daily use. Weights are either 215 grain HBWC, or 185 grain LWC. I also have the option of a 165 grain cast cowboy boolit in 165 grain RNFP. I have 231, Bullseye, Unique, and REDDOT to name a few of my favorite powders.

Purpose will be for EDC self defense of myself and my wife. Looking for 700-900 FPS loads in these 21 oz revolvers.

I have shot, over the years, the Skeeter load, but recoil is ferocious!

So, how about it? Any suggestions? I have shot, cast, and reloaded over 50 years now, so I shouldn't have any problems grasping your ideas. Thanks, WDW44

[pettypace]

Load the 215 grain HBWC as intended, with the hollow base facing the powder. At 700 f/s that should reliably give about 18" of penetration in bare 10% gelatin with about 40 grams of wound mass by MacPherson's calculation. I'd use Bullseye until I ran out.

[Bigslug]

+1 on both the powder and bullet choice. I've really come to like Bullseye for this sort of load. Currently running Titegroup in the Special, but pushing 255 grains with it.

[shooting on a shoestring]

Well you’ve got some good components. Like PettyPace, I’d be using Bullseye first.

For boolits, I’d load a few of each weight and see which ones shoot high, low or just right. I’d think 5 grains of Bullseye would work great with all of them except the heavy hollow base if you load it hollow base to the back. Wouldn’t want to worry about blowing a skirt.

If I was loading the 165 gr RNFP, I’d turn it around to get a full meplat bevel base wadcutter. I really prefer full meplat wadcutters for making big leaky holes.

[racepres]

My, decidedly Old Bulldog won't shoot light bullets to POA. So, 3.8 gr of Red Dot or 6.0 Grains of Unique give 650fps, under the Old Speer Swaged 240.. or of course, Soft cast 240's, and are POA. If I could get away with 200's I would use that same charge of Unique or Red Dot, as all that changes is the FPS...jumps to 775. In My Particular Bulldog. Odd...but...tested repeatedly.

[Thumbcocker]

I like 4.5 grains of red dot/promo 7nder a 190 grain button nose solid base wadcutter.

[Jeffrey]

There is a lot of controversy about using handloads for EDC. From what I have read, the most legitimate concern is that factory loads are, for the most part, a known load. It is possible for a forensics lab to determine how far the shooter was from the shootee by using powder burns. The specific case I read about involved a handloader and target shooter that, for his wife, loaded light target loads in 38 SPL +P cases. The way the story goes, wife commits suicide using one of these cartridges. Husband tries, unsuccessfully to stop her. He has powder residue on his hands. She has powder burns consistent with a +P load shot from a distance. Even though he has in these cases, with this light charge, prosecution has the +P cases as the cartridge that killed the woman.
I know I am somewhat comparing apples to oranges here, self defense to suicide. The point is if one is forced to shoot someone in self defense, it is a preferable to do so with a factory load that distance from shooter to target can determined.
All that being said, I've been handloading for 45+ years, casting boolits for 35+ years. The only factory ammo I buy is rimfire and EDC. I'll use handloads for self defense in a TEOTWAWKI situation, but only then.

[racepres]

I like 4.5 grains of red dot/promo 7nder a 190 grain button nose solid base wadcutter.
In the Charter Bulldog!!! Yeowch..
on the Ammo end;
If I have a Need to Shoot someone...last thing I will worry over is "what with"
most of those "scary stories" are Internet BS and Liberal Crap... but, opinions are like???? I forget..

[georgerkahn]

New here. Not sure this is how to go about my search.

I have always had an affinity for the .44 caliber. I have loaded many rounds for 44 magnums over the years. NOW that I have turned 70 years ofr age I have settled down to .44 Specials. I carry a Charter Arms Bulldog daily, and while I have owned many magnums but I have very little info about the Special 44.

I am looking for suggested loads for the caliber using cast wad-cutters for EDC daily use. Weights are either 215 grain HBWC, or 185 grain LWC. I also have the option of a 165 grain cast cowboy boolit in 165 grain RNFP. I have 231, Bullseye, Unique, and REDDOT to name a few of my favorite powders.

Purpose will be for EDC self defense of myself and my wife. Looking for 700-900 FPS loads in these 21 oz revolvers.

I have shot, over the years, the Skeeter load, but recoil is ferocious!

So, how about it? Any suggestions? I have shot, cast, and reloaded over 50 years now, so I shouldn't have any problems grasping your ideas. Thanks, WDW44

Just as an off-the-wall idea -- note word, "idea" -- not a suggestion or anything more, but perhaps I have been watching too many episodes of television series, "Forensic Files"? If you feel you have a need for self-defense, I think I would go for a shot-shell load. 325492 Vis forensics, the only thing I might consider remaining would be the firing pin indent on cartridge case -- but as long as you police your brass -- no worries.

[racepres]

Just as an off-the-wall idea -- note word, "idea" -- not a suggestion or anything more, but perhaps I have been watching too many episodes of television series, "Forensic Files"? If you feel you have a need for self-defense, I think I would go for a shot-shell load. 325492 Vis forensics, the only thing I might consider remaining would be the firing pin indent on cartridge case -- but as long as you police your brass -- no worries.
You would Not Believe the variety of "materials" a friend was putting into those capsules back when they first became available!!! some very effective (on chicken carcasses), some...Not at all...some in fact Comical!!!!

[Bazoo]

I've worked up some lighter loads with Bullseye and heavier bullets, and that's where I'll start when I begin working with 200 grain bullets. For the RCBS 44-250-K (https://bulletmatch.com/bullets/rcbs-44-250-k-82080) that I use a lot of, which weighs 265 gains, I use 4.4, 4.6, and 4.8 grains of bullseye.

I settled on the 4.8 grain sort of a standard plinking load, but the 4.4 and 4.6 grain loads were light and still thumped when it hit, and all were pretty accurate, though not as accurate for me as slightly heavier loads.

I haven't worked much with the lighter end yet, but I do have a 200 grain Lee mould that I'm going to tinker with. I expect this range of powder charge with Bullseye to be right where I want to be for a nice light load.

[stubshaft]

About 10 years ago I loaded up some light plinking loads for the kids using 4.0 grs. of Clays behind a 200 gr. SAECO RNFP. It motors along at 812 fps. shot to 1 1/2"@ 25 yards, and I decided that it would be MY plinking load from then on.

[WDW44]

About 10 years ago I loaded up some light plinking loads for the kids using 4.0 grs. of Clays behind a 200 gr. SAECO RNFP. It motors along at 812 fps. shot to 1 1/2"@ 25 yards, and I decided that it would be MY plinking load from then on.
Thank you sir!
i have not reloaded for 25 years, so many of the powders, ie Clays, are complete unknowns.

i will aquire some and give your suggestion a try. Does Clays require a heavy roll crimp








Thanks again to Stubshaft!

[WDW44]

thanks Bazoo! I have a past acquaintance with Bullseye, and that is where I may start tinkering. Kind of hoping to use a more case filling powder, but...

[WDW44]

Appreciate the reply, but I will have to refuse. If I have to defend self or family nowadays I wish to stop the threat asap, and not just anger he/she/it/them. ( Must be gender inclusive, right...LOL) Thanks again.

[WDW44]

Just as an off-the-wall idea If you feel you have a need for self-defense, I think I would go for a shot-shell load. 325492 Vis forensics, the only thing I might consider remaining would be the firing pin indent on cartridge case -- but as long as you police your brass -- no worries.

Being re-tired LEO I loaded some .38/.357 Speer shot shells with 3-"ooo" buck and snuck a couple into my yearly qualification training. Shooting 300/300 was my norm, so imagine when the range officer, a captain who was a friend of mine, was scoring mine and found I had scored a 306 out of a possible 300! I showed him one of the rounds, and he quipped, "This idea may help those who CANNOT shoot to qualify!" We all chuckled, but even those I do not think I would choose for self-defense use, althoug...

[stubshaft]

Thank you sir!
i have not reloaded for 25 years, so many of the powders, ie Clays, are complete unknowns.

i will aquire some and give your suggestion a try. Does Clays require a heavy roll crimp








Thanks again to Stubshaft!

Not at all. Just a standard crimp is fine.

[WDW44]

Thanks to you, Shooting on a shoestring. I have acquired some cast 185 grain full double ended wad cutters,and since I am prone to "big leaky holes" as you so aptly state, that may be the one. If I shoot with 5 bullseye,ad maybe 5-5,5 RED DOT I can almost hear the "SLAP" on flesh that will follow a well placed shot. I expect they will allow for quick follow-ups, should one be needed. BOOM! BOOM! is always a nice percussive sound! :)

[WDW44]

In the Charter Bulldog!!! Yeowch..
on the Ammo end;
If I have a Need to Shoot someone...last thing I will worry over is "what with"
most of those "scary stories" are Internet BS and Liberal Crap... but, opinions are like???? I forget..

I agree! I am certain some ******* will help our memories. I have carried daily for 52 years, and have had to pull on three occasions (on and of duty), and never have had to do the dirty of defending my life...yet. But times being like they are, the odds are more in favor of the armed citizen if serious social intercourse is in the offering. WDW44, ******* eliminator at large!

[WDW44]

Load the 215 grain HBWC as intended, with the hollow base facing the powder. At 700 f/s that should reliably give about 18" of penetration in bare 10% gelatin with about 40 grams of wound mass by MacPherson's calculation. I'd use Bullseye until I ran out.

That penetration should be sufficient, if all the variable coincide. Do you load those flush to the case mouth as intended, or...? I reversed the HBWC in 38 special for years and have a fun story when out hunting squirrels with a couple of old, and older friends who had .22 LR rifles. Handguns are quicker into action!

[WDW44]

I like 4.5 grains of red dot/promo 7nder a 190 grain button nose solid base wadcutter.

Sounds like a winner right there! I was just sent some 175grn DEWC and that is where I will most likely begin.

[Bazoo]

Consider, that a wadcutter won't reload very quick. You can always still carry something better for reloading as the reload though.

[rintinglen]

Sounds like a winner right there! I was just sent some 175grn DEWC and that is where I will most likely begin.

I heartily concur. Red Dot is sort of a secret weapon when it comes to loading the 44 Special. I load a ~230 grain NOE Button-nose, WC boolit over 4.5 grains of Red Dot and out to 50 yards it groups extremely well and I sure wouldn't want to get between the muzzle and the target if one was let fly.

[pettypace]

Purpose will be for EDC self defense of myself and my wife. Looking for 700-900 FPS loads in these 21 oz revolvers.

I have shot, over the years, the Skeeter load, but recoil is ferocious!



It sounds counter-intuitive, but where recoil is an issue, the heavier bullet (at a lower velocity) may be the better choice.

The table below shows the velocities required for .44 caliber wadcutters of various weights to achieve a predicted 18 inches of penetration in bare 10% ordnance gelatin with about 36 grams of wound mass.

The "Power Factor" is a thinly disguised measurement of bullet momentum which relates to recoil. For comparison, a .38 Special target wadcutter has a power factor just shy of 100 and .45 GI hardball just shy of 200.

325573

[Bigslug]

That penetration should be sufficient, if all the variable coincide. Do you load those flush to the case mouth as intended, or...? I reversed the HBWC in 38 special for years and have a fun story when out hunting squirrels with a couple of old, and older friends who had .22 LR rifles. Handguns are quicker into action!

A 215 grain HBWC out of a .44 Special is basically cloning the 220 grain .455 Webley MKIV bullet, which is more or less what we've come to think of as an ogival wadcutter. That slug sticks out of the case by a good bit, but then, .455 MKII brass is a pretty short case. Seat yours to where your powder charge is living in a reasonably confined space to ensure reliable ignition

I believe I ended up with 3 to 3.2 grains of Red Dot for launching that bullet out of a big Webley MKVI. Penetration was four gallon jugs as I recall - pretty much even with what you'll get out of most police duty loads.

[Thin Man]

WDW44, PM coming your way.

[WDW44]

It sounds counter-intuitive, but where recoil is an issue, the heavier bullet (at a lower velocity) may be the better choice.

The table below shows the velocities required for .44 caliber wadcutters of various weights to achieve a predicted 18 inches of penetration in bare 10% ordnance gelatin with about 36 grams of wound mass.

The "Power Factor" is a thinly disguised measurement of bullet momentum which relates to recoil. For comparison, a .38 Special target wadcutter has a power factor just shy of 100 and .45 GI hardball just shy of 200.

325573

Thanks for that information! Will put it to good use.

[WDW44]

A secondary related question: Everyone seems to like to quote the "Skeeter load" as the (Choose your level of enthusiasm) load, and I mean him no disrespect having read him for years in Shooting Times rags, BUT every GEL TEST report I can find it seems as if that Boolit over penetrates something terrible!

Is that some kind of "Fame by Association" event, or od people have actual results on two legged creatures? In over 90% of shooting scenarios over my career, there have always been others behind the target which I do no choose to shoot, nor would they appreciate my shooting them.

I prefer to slightly UNDER-Penetrate, so the Skeeter load I would use on small deer (ala Kansas sized). I shot a coyote once with one. He stood facing me at about 100 yeards. My .44mag shot hit him in the front right shoulder just under his neck, passed slightly below his mid-back spine, which was broken, and lodged just under his left flank, by his tail. He dropped and never even kicked of flinched. Great stop BUT I am certain that would have exited a two-legged coyote, with killing to spare.

I like the Skeeter load, for accuracy and Kansas hunting, and plan to test it in the new S&W 69 .44 caliber, I just purchased.

[WDW44]

WDW44, PM coming your way.

Thanks THIN MAN! Just found it, and am hungrily devouring them now!

[pettypace]

A secondary related question: Everyone seems to like to quote the "Skeeter load" as the (Choose your level of enthusiasm) load, and I mean him no disrespect having read him for years in Shooting Times rags, BUT every GEL TEST report I can find it seems as if that Boolit over penetrates something terrible!


Somewhere on this forum there's a great story about some gel testing with military brass in attendance. The star of the show, IIRC, was an old 38/44 load that penetrated all available gelatin, bounced off the backstop, and went careening around the room sending the august spectators diving for cover.

If extreme penetration were the answer, the government would still issue 30-40 Krags.

[WDW44]

Appreciate the reply. I am not concerned about bullets hitting low. Once I find the one that gives me everything I want, I will gunsmith the front sight to POA. Have dome that with other fixed sight guns, and I always stick a note bearing the load, bullet weight, etc, and that sights were modified for that load, in the box it came in so when I die my heirs, or bill collectors (LOL) can match it all up. For other shooting I'll just hold high, low, left or right, no problem, but most of my shooting will be with THE LOAD or one with very similar ingredients...LOL.

[WDW44]

Love it! The government has all the answers to problems we don't have. They create problems so they can claim WE ARE HERE TO HELP!

Having carried concealed for about 58 years now, almost daily, I want a load that It seems will stop in the target while delivering the most OOOMMPH I can create.

[WDW44]

Appreciate the reply. I am not concerned about bullets hitting low. Once I find the one that gives me everything I want, I will gunsmith the front sight to POA. Have dome that with other fixed sight guns, and I always stick a note bearing the load, bullet weight, etc, and that sights were modified for that load, in the box it came in so when I die my heirs, or bill collectors (LOL) can match it all up. For other shooting I'll just hold high, low, left or right, no problem, but most of my shooting will be with THE LOAD or one with very similar ingredients...LOL.

Love it! The government has all the answers to problems we don't have. They create problems so they can claim WE ARE HERE TO HELP!

Having carried concealed for about 58 years now, almost daily, I want a load that It seems will stop in the target while delivering the most OOOMMPH I can create.

[Bowdrie]

For those who want to reload the .44 Special, this is a good read.
https://www.goodrichfamilyassoc.org/44_Special_Articles/Brian%20Pearce%20on%20the%2044%20Special.pdf

[WDW44]

Thanks BOWDRIE! I enjoy reading and learning from those who excell with learnin' LOL I will dig into that information ASAP! Thanks again! WDW44

[Forrest r]

Lifes full of tradeoffs. What you choose for a sd load for your bulldog is no different. I've carried a bulldog since the 80's and still do to this day. Did a lot of testing over the years with several different bulldogs, snubnosed revolvers, short bbl'd pistols, etc.

In the link above (post #34) it shows standard pressure loads (15,500psi) and the lyman 429421 bullet using 8.0gr of power pistol. That load did 978fps in pearces 6 1/2" bbl'd revolver and 980fps in his 4 1/2" bbl'd revolver. Typical difference in firearms, perhaps the freedom arms has better/tighter chambers in the cylinder? Anyway, same load in my 2 1/2" bbl'd ca bulldog (target on right)
https://i.imgur.com/ld6RTZd.jpg

The 2 bullets used in the test. Left is a 245gr keith swc hp and right is a cramer type III 200gr wc.
https://i.imgur.com/wf9hieh.jpg

Interestingly enough the 200gr wc had a higher velocity then the 245gr swc. The side-by-side picture shows that the wc is shorter/doesn't seat deeper in the case. Both were cast with the same alloy and sized in the same sizing die.

While both loads are accurate enough for sd along with easy enough to handle recoil wise. The slower velocity limits their effectiveness to open shots in soft tissue only. Anything hard gets in the way (glass/wood/doors/plaster walls/etc.) and the party's over. Wish I had a dollar for every time I've herd/read "use a wc in a snubnosed revolver for sd, you get xxx ft of penetration!!!".

A home cast 148gr hbwc doing 800fps+ out of a 6" bbl'd ppc revolver.
https://i.imgur.com/XVsDo3b.jpg

Was cast with a 8/9bhn alloy, what that 148gr wc looked like after being dug out of that bowling pin.
https://i.imgur.com/FtYVPsq.jpg

At the 600/700fps range the bullets bounce off. So do those 200gr wc's and 245gr swc hp's doing anything less then 800fps.

I prefer 200gr to 220gr bullets in the bulldogs along with getting them up in velocity to the +/- 1000fps range.
https://i.imgur.com/fo57jjU.jpg

My bulldog is loosing +/- 150fps compared to Pearce's test loads. But the extra fps (+/- 1000fps vs +/- 800fps) makes a huge difference.

And yes I've tried/tested a couple of different wc's in that bulldog.
https://i.imgur.com/iMopAGs.jpg?3

My brother turned me on to the ca bulldogs back in the 1980's. Back then he setup a bulldog for his wife to carry. He cast/used a 200gr sp bullet (lyman 429303) with a lite load (4.0gr) of either reddot or bullseye (can't remember)??? The bullet looked like the pointed bullet in the group of bullets in the upper left hand corner.
https://i.imgur.com/4ttnsbh.jpg

NOE Bullet Moulds sells 3 different versions of that bullet, 150gr/204gr/237gr.
https://noebulletmolds.com/site/product-category/bullet-moulds/432/434-204-sp-aa1/

I'd be taking a hard look at that style of bullet. I did a bunch testing with the layman 358093 and the 249303 in anything from snubnosed revolvers to lever action rifles. For a lite/low recoil sd bullet in the 44spl. That 150gr or 204gr sp would be at the top of the list.

[pettypace]

The slower velocity limits their effectiveness to open shots in soft tissue only. Anything hard gets in the way (glass/wood/doors/plaster walls/etc.) and the party's over.


I don't buy it! There's no door, window, or wall in my house I'd trust to stop a .44 Keith bullet at 500 f/s, let alone 800 f/s.

[WDW44]

This was my OP, and I thank the many folks with good advice. I believe I have found my EDC round, and it will be factory, 44 Special 125gr. Xtreme Defender Solid Monolithic Hunting & Self Defense Ammo from UNDERWOOD> I will use ALL the suggested loads for plinkink and practice, but the Underwood shoot very nice in the Charter Arms Bulldog, and is exceptional in my S&W 2.75" MODEL 69. GEL TESTS AND REPORTS ON REAL TIME USES SHOW this TO BE IDEAL FOR ME.

[WDW44]

Totally agree Pettpace! I have shot the "keith" at 600 e-fps and walls are like butter soft to those 'bulky" SWC! Many WC overpenetrate in flesh and bone, but often times knock through doors and glass (? really GLASS defeats the Keith?) As my earlier post I have seen how much old car sheet metal it takes to slow and stop the Keith 265grn, as I cast them back then, from a Bulldog 3".

[Forrest r]

Totally agree Pettpace! I have shot the "keith" at 600 e-fps and walls are like butter soft to those 'bulky" SWC! Many WC overpenetrate in flesh and bone, but often times knock through doors and glass (? really GLASS defeats the Keith?) As my earlier post I have seen how much old car sheet metal it takes to slow and stop the Keith 265grn, as I cast them back then, from a Bulldog 3".

Weeeelllllll there's glass then there's a well glass. People hear glass put in a context with other barriers like wood/walls/etc. and think window or door glass.

Glass like what windshields are made out of, a little different and angled. And ya things like slow moving bullets teach people to spell ricochet.

Anyway good luck with whatever you use. Choose wisely and hopefully it's only your life that is relying on your decision.

[pettypace]

Weeeelllllll there's glass then there's a well glass. People hear glass put in a context with other barriers like wood/walls/etc. and think window or door glass.

Glass like what windshields are made out of, a little different and angled. And ya things like slow moving bullets teach people to spell ricochet.


There's certainly a difference between window glass in my house (which might stop a BB) and auto windshield glass at the compound angle specified in the FBI testing protocol (which probably won't stop a target wadcutter from a .38 snubby).

For perspective, here's an exchange from another forum (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?30080-Wadcutters-vs-Hollowpoints-for-snubnose-carry/page2):

Q: Have you tested standard wadcutters through auto glass?

A: Of course.....about 2 decades ago. It is all about the hardness of the lead and the launch velocity when confronting glass. Harder lead WC's at 744 fps went 14"; softer lead WC's at 651 fps only went 9".

In this exchange, the answer was provided by DocGKR (https://www.reddit.com/r/ar15/comments/11gpnkh/what_ammo_should_i_buy_an_incomplete_bibliography/), a reknown expert in terminal ballistics. Although it's not stated, I assume that any auto glass testing DocGKR did would follow the FBI protocol with the glass angled 45 degrees to the horizontal and 15 degrees to the side.

In any event, I wouldn't want to depend on a car windshield to protect me even from a soft lead, slow-moving wadcutter.

[Chill Wills]

For those who want to reload the .44 Special, this is a good read.
https://www.goodrichfamilyassoc.org/44_Special_Articles/Brian%20Pearce%20on%20the%2044%20Special.pdf

Thanks for posting that link. Good read and I would print it off if I could. I did take note of the loads I was interested in. I have taken a serous interest in my 44's for carry this last winter and I am not done. Herco powder, of which I have just slightly less than one pound still, turned out tops for my three 44 Specials using bullets in the 250 - 265 grn range. I have more Unique but Herco was really good.

[racepres]

Thanks for posting that link. Good read and I would print it off if I could. I did take note of the loads I was interested in. I have taken a serous interest in my 44's for carry this last winter and I am not done. Herco powder, of which I have just slightly less than one pound still, turned out tops for my three 44 Specials using bullets in the 250 - 265 grn range. I have more Unique but Herco was really good.
Yes...Herco excells...mostly with slightly longer Barrels IME. I really Like Unique in short Barrels (Bulldog). But, As it turns out...Red Dot excelled, Again!!