Maximum speed with Black powder.

[Sandro_ventania]

I searched and couldn't find an answer. Does anyone know what the maximum speed can be achieved using Black powder? Regardless of caliber and size of the load. I've heard it doesn't go above 2,000fps, but I've heard of up to 3,000fps. Does anyone have any information?

[HumptyDumpty]

I searched and couldn't find an answer. Does anyone know what the maximum speed can be achieved using Black powder? Regardless of caliber and size of the load. I've heard it doesn't go above 2,000fps, but I've heard of up to 3,000fps. Does anyone have any information?

I am not sure what the theoretical maximum would be, but I do know that there is a point of diminishing returns; I loaded a 505 gibbs with 120 grains of ffg under a 700 grain solid, and got 1415 fps. 160 grains of fffg yielded 1,426, and 170 grains only got me to 1,469. For reference, a 150 grain charge of WC860 (a 50bmg powder) propelled that same projectile to 1,964 fps. Keep in mind that the WC860 is not the correct powder for this application, and is essentially a reduced-power load, but still handily bested that massive charge of black.

[Matt85]

Just did a bit of research and see some people claiming over 2000fps.

Would be an interesting test.

[LAGS]

Isn’t the maximum speed of BP shooting related to mostly the barrel length ?
From what I have heard.
The powder burns so slow, that the in burned powder just blows out the end of the barrel.
So overloading it to most points will not increase the speed any higher.

[challenger_i]

For reference, the black powder 303 British service cartridge launched a 215gr projectile at 1850fps.

[Matt85]

Isn’t the maximum speed of BP shooting related to mostly the barrel length ?
From what I have heard.
The powder burns so slow, that I burned powder just blows out the end of the barrel.
Bore diameter and projectile weight make a big difference.

Also, keep in mind that the slow burn rate means large powder columns work harder to push themselves out the bore.

My 8-bore will happily burn 275gr of black powder in it's 24" barrels.

[HWooldridge]

It’s possible with a 40” barrel in .45 using a PRB. My old rifle would hit and exceed 2000 on 90 grs. of FFFg, but just barely. I don’t recall ever getting close to 2100.

[Abert Rim]

From the Lyman Blackpowder Handbook, page 103. On page 89, they show a .36 caliber round ball getting 2,505 out of a 43-inch barrel using 70 grains of G-O FFFg.
https://i.postimg.cc/Hj0DGGsL/image-67220993-2.jpg (https://postimg.cc/Hj0DGGsL)

[Sandro_ventania]

It seems that no theoretical study has been done on this matter, we only have empirical tests. Certainly lighter projectiles have greater potential to reach higher speeds. I keep imagining a .22 or .30 barrel with a wide chamber simulating a rifle case. Would we be able to achieve the ballistics of a .22 Hornet for example in this scheme? Do you understand what I mean?

[Sandro_ventania]

From the Lyman Blackpowder Handbook, page 103. On page 89, they show a .36 caliber round ball getting 2,505 out of a 43-inch barrel using 70 grains of G-O FFFg.
https://i.postimg.cc/Hj0DGGsL/image-67220993-2.jpg (https://postimg.cc/Hj0DGGsL)

I I think you posted the wrong image...lol!

[2TM101]

From the Lyman Blackpowder Handbook, page 103. On page 89, they show a .36 caliber round ball getting 2,505 out of a 43-inch barrel using 70 grains of G-O FFFg.

That would have to be a 1:95 or slower twist barrel, or a patched round ball will not stay in the rifling.

[Nobade]

Some of those hunting rifles with Forsyth rifling could generate quite high velocities. And with 1:150" twist they had to in order to shoot accurately. Something like the Phaeton underhammers that used 300 grain charges in a 62 caliber barrel.

[Rattlesnake Charlie]

Some of those hunting rifles with Forsyth rifling could generate quite high velocities. And with 1:150" twist they had to in order to shoot accurately. Something like the Phaeton underhammers that used 300 grain charges in a 62 caliber barrel.

That must have been some exciting recoil.

[Nobade]

That must have been some exciting recoil.

I can only imagine.
https://www.rjrenner.com/faeton-ml-rifle.html

[pietro]

.

IDK, but if it shoots a boolit fast enough to reach out and touch a deer, it's good enough for me....... :bigsmyl2:

[Harter66]

A185 gr RB according to the Lyman TC Hawkins manual with 110 gr of FFFg will reach 24?? In a 28" .

Lyman also shows deference data for 45-120-405 with 34" barrel equal to the 458WM with the same 405 from a 24" barrel .

I've heard/read that a little air space can really speed things up ..........

BP speed and resulting pressure is relative to kernel size , density, surface area . The smaller it's ground the faster it goes, with the accompanying pressure rise . A sealed chamber to barrel will be faster than with a gap between. And a sealed chamber and breach will be faster than one with a flash hole . A 45-90 with 100 gr of FFFg under 165 gr collar button is almost certain to break 2800 fps in as little as a 28".

[lead chucker]

Velocity is good and so far im at best 1604 with a .562 round ball in my 58 renegade barrel. Im going to test my 54 and see what it does. My understanding is a round ball looses its speed and energy pretty fast so i think im where i need to be. As far as how fast you can get out of black powder has allot of variables cartidge cases have limitations so smaller calibers with max loads is where a guy can find that out. Im sure there will be guys on this sight testing this and see what they get pluss with there home grown powder. I would think with a 45 cal with 90 gr 3f and barrel length comes in to play being over 30 inch would give you close to or over 2000 fps.

[Woodnbow]

Velocity is good and so far im at best 1604 with a .562 round ball in my 58 renegade barrel. Im going to test my 54 and see what it does. My understanding is a round ball looses its speed and energy pretty fast so i think im where i need to be. As far as how fast you can get out of black powder has allot of variables cartidge cases have limitations so smaller calibers with max loads is where a guy can find that out. Im sure there will be guys on this sight testing this and see what they get pluss with there home grown powder. I would think with a 45 cal with 90 gr 3f and barrel length comes in to play being over 30 inch would give you close to or over 2000 fps.

From the P-Max calculator… https://www.p-max.uk/cgi-bin/black_powder.cgi it shows a possible speed of over 2800 fps with a .360 ball over a charge of 100 grains of 3f in a 48” barrel.
This calculator is remarkably accurate as compared to actual chronograph readings from the F1 Chronograph and the Magnetospeed V2.

325638

[Sandro_ventania]

It's good to know that this calculator has some accuracy. I sometimes play with it and even doubt the results.

[indian joe]

From the P-Max calculator… https://www.p-max.uk/cgi-bin/black_powder.cgi it shows a possible speed of over 2800 fps with a .360 ball over a charge of 100 grains of 3f in a 48” barrel.
This calculator is remarkably accurate as compared to actual chronograph readings from the F1 Chronograph and the Magnetospeed V2.

325638

The point of diminishing returns starts to bite pretty seriously with a round ball gun from 1800fps - other things matter too - fr instance where did that 2800fps 36cal ball go? dont matter how fast it went if it missed the target.
Patch material? easy, simple and cheap under 1800..

whats the point here ? round ball has woeful ballistics and the smaller the more so. If hunting is the purpose proly find a bigger calibre (heavier) ball over the same powder charge deliver more ooomph at hunting ranges ?

[dtknowles]

The point of diminishing returns starts to bite pretty seriously with a round ball gun from 1800fps - other things matter too - fr instance where did that 2800fps 36cal ball go? dont matter how fast it went if it missed the target.
Patch material? easy, simple and cheap under 1800..

whats the point here ? round ball has woeful ballistics and the smaller the more so. If hunting is the purpose proly find a bigger calibre (heavier) ball over the same powder charge deliver more ooomph at hunting ranges ?

Yep. That was figured out over a century ago, almost 2 centuries ago. Not just hunting but fighting. No point in pushing a round ball over 1800 fps except to say you did it. Not necessarily a bigger caliber, 45 cal. is big enough. These days even the 50 cal. shoot 45 cal. bullets in sabots. For smaller game .32 or .36 caliber is plenty big enough.
Tim

[freakonaleash]

Speed doesn't kill with black powder and a round ball, mass does.

[Brimstone]

Sure. You can push a thick wall heavy barreled Kentucky with a platinum vent liner to 2,100 fps. Those sort of heavy fine grain charges will tear up a steel vent liner very quick like.

My cousin has hit right at 2,100 with his custom heavy barrel rifle. Need a strong thick ticking patch, very tight fit and very good lube to avoid blowing out the patch. A felt wad between powder and patch also helps reduce patch blowout.

As for my light little Kentucky, nooo. 1,800 fps is plenty fast. More than that is masochistic bruising and flinch inducing as though the flintlock needs more of that.

[Adam Helmer]

Sandro,

Lots of smarter folks here will assist you in your quest. Are you a muzzleloader as I am with a dozen favorites from .45 to .58 caliber? It is interesting to know how fast a BP projectile can fly, but speed is not a province of accurate ML shooting. I got a chronograph for under $100 a few years ago and it was fun finding out such questions.

Be well.

Adam

[Sandro_ventania]

Guys, you can't take your focus off ball and patch. High speed shooting will certainly be with conical and paper patch. The question here is not knowing what kills more. It's just a mental exercise to discover the limits of black powder. It's finding out what you can really do with BP in a muzzleloader. regardless of whether the benefit of this will be hunting, a paper target or just to look at the chronograph and say wow... I never thought BP could kick so fast!

[indian joe]

Guys, you can't take your focus off ball and patch. High speed shooting will certainly be with conical and paper patch. The question here is not knowing what kills more. It's just a mental exercise to discover the limits of black powder. It's finding out what you can really do with BP in a muzzleloader. regardless of whether the benefit of this will be hunting, a paper target or just to look at the chronograph and say wow... I never thought BP could kick so fast!

my take
You wont get what you want with an open system (percussion or flintlock)
so cartridge gun (has to be a wildcat along the lines of a 50 BMG case necked down to something 30's clibre)
OR a long barrel inline ? - you would want at least a 40 inch barrel ........................

not my cup of tea but might be fun watching at the end

[Sandro_ventania]

That's it Joe, I think you get it!

[charlie b]

16inch Navy gun, 2500fps. Uses black powder. :)

[Bigslug]

16inch Navy gun, 2500fps. Uses black powder. :)

That, and the .303 British example (& Eduard Rubin's experiments that led to it) are possibly something of a guide. I guess we'd have to lay some ground rules as to determining a "practical" maximum, because on the large extreme, most of us don't have a turbine-powered battleship to carry our hunting rifle for us, and on the small extreme a highly overbore cartridge pushing a light .22 at what would still be well shy of smokeless speeds wouldn't be suitable for medium/large game or military purposes. For anybody wanting to experiment, I guess it should be something you'd be comfortable taking a deer with.

As part of the U.S.S. Iowa's museum displays, they have an inert shell set in front of a stack of inert powder bags. Any red-blooded American kid is going to look at that propellant to projectile ratio and immediately see a scaled-up .30-06 or .50 BMG. The very short-lived era of compressed black powder behind a jacketed bullet showed us an overbore bottlenecked case with a highly compressed charge. This was also in the era of longer barrel = longer bayonet platform, so you'd have that working for you.

A blown-out, straight-walled, sharp-shouldered .30-06 Ackley case behind a long barrel and a slow twist would probably be about the most effective way to do this, provided some thought were put into the best way to compress the charge in a bottlenecked case, but any of the 29" barreled service rifles of the pre-WWI era would be valid test beds. If you have a Long Lee, uncut Krag, Gew '98, Swede '96, or comparable 7x57 and an inquisitive mind, you could figure this out easily enough.

[dondiego]

16inch Navy gun, 2500fps. Uses black powder. :)

Just for a primer charge. The bulk is smokeless powder.

[Sandro_ventania]

That, and the .303 British example (& Eduard Rubin's experiments that led to it) are possibly something of a guide. I guess we'd have to lay some ground rules as to determining a "practical" maximum, because on the large extreme, most of us don't have a turbine-powered battleship to carry our hunting rifle for us, and on the small extreme a highly overbore cartridge pushing a light .22 at what would still be well shy of smokeless speeds wouldn't be suitable for medium/large game or military purposes. For anybody wanting to experiment, I guess it should be something you'd be comfortable taking a deer with.

As part of the U.S.S. Iowa's museum displays, they have an inert shell set in front of a stack of inert powder bags. Any red-blooded American kid is going to look at that propellant to projectile ratio and immediately see a scaled-up .30-06 or .50 BMG. The very short-lived era of compressed black powder behind a jacketed bullet showed us an overbore bottlenecked case with a highly compressed charge. This was also in the era of longer barrel = longer bayonet platform, so you'd have that working for you.

A blown-out, straight-walled, sharp-shouldered .30-06 Ackley case behind a long barrel and a slow twist would probably be about the most effective way to do this, provided some thought were put into the best way to compress the charge in a bottlenecked case, but any of the 29" barreled service rifles of the pre-WWI era would be valid test beds. If you have a Long Lee, uncut Krag, Gew '98, Swede '96, or comparable 7x57 and an inquisitive mind, you could figure this out easily enough.

Where is the biggest limitation? In the required volume or at the speed of BP burning?

[HWooldridge]

I’m not sure where I read this, but seem to remember some writer claiming the early 303 rounds were necked after charging, which would have certainly made powder compression much easier. Supposedly, this was the process for both BP and cordite, and remained so until flake powders became common. I’ve seen old cutaway sketches that show a card wafer disc over cordite so this may have been the actual factory method. The 303 neck is not that much smaller than the body and probably could be done in one press cycle, perhaps just prior to seating the projectile.

[Woodnbow]

The point of diminishing returns starts to bite pretty seriously with a round ball gun from 1800fps - other things matter too - fr instance where did that 2800fps 36cal ball go? dont matter how fast it went if it missed the target.
Patch material? easy, simple and cheap under 1800..

whats the point here ? round ball has woeful ballistics and the smaller the more so. If hunting is the purpose proly find a bigger calibre (heavier) ball over the same powder charge deliver more ooomph at hunting ranges ?

The question was how fast. Not how fast with accuracy. Although I’m sure you could engineer a rifle/projectile system that could be accurate at speeds over 2500 fps. I don’t need the headache such a project would no doubt entail and I’m happy with long bullets loafing along less than 1500 fps. Even at that, the 40 and 45 caliber bullet shooters require platinum nipples as the higher pressure just eats steel nipples in as little as a dozen shots.

[john.k]

The 303 blackpowder round had a solid compressed pellet of blackpowder weighing 71grs ..........there is no way that much loose blackpowder could be loaded into the case ...........Both blackpowder and cordite 303 rounds were necked after the charge was inserted ........all this was done at the various explosive factories ,and was a source of some inconsistencies in the length of the loaded round ......which often would cause Lewis guns to jam,a bad situation in an airplane........In an interesting fact ,the 303 blackpowder charge generated more pressure than the replacement cordite charge ...around 19 tons/sq.inch.

[indian joe]

I’m not sure where I read this, but seem to remember some writer claiming the early 303 rounds were necked after charging, which would have certainly made powder compression much easier. Supposedly, this was the process for both BP and cordite, and remained so until flake powders became common. I’ve seen old cutaway sketches that show a card wafer disc over cordite so this may have been the actual factory method. The 303 neck is not that much smaller than the body and probably could be done in one press cycle, perhaps just prior to seating the projectile.

believe that is correct

[indian joe]

The question was how fast. Not how fast with accuracy. Although I’m sure you could engineer a rifle/projectile system that could be accurate at speeds over 2500 fps. I don’t need the headache such a project would no doubt entail and I’m happy with long bullets loafing along less than 1500 fps. Even at that, the 40 and 45 caliber bullet shooters require platinum nipples as the higher pressure just eats steel nipples in as little as a dozen shots.

its an interesting question (for some) ....but getting the answer a pretty pointless excercise .....if all you know at the end is how fast it went but no ide where it went ?????? whats that gain???

[Woodnbow]

its an interesting question (for some) ....but getting the answer a pretty pointless excercise .....if all you know at the end is how fast it went but no ide where it went ?????? whats that gain???
Not sure it’s pointless. All though I can see how some might think so.�� at any rate one question, how fast can it go go, if answered, leads to the next. How do we make it go where we want it to go? Data Watson, we need more data.


There’s a guy on YouTube who experiments with blackpowder. He loaded a number of .45 Colt rounds with a 405 grain bullet sized .452” over 25 grains of 3f Swiss powder. In a Ruger single action they were very consistent, clean burning, and accurate. Every single primer was flattened but with no extrusion. Obviously it can generate enough pressure to make very high velocity or move very heavy bullets at useful velocities. (Probably enough pressure to destroy a blackpowder rated revolver like an SAA or one of those clones.) Blackpowder is fascinating stuff, inefficient but the very inefficiencies make it also very consistent which makes it so very useful.

[Sandro_ventania]

its an interesting question (for some) ....but getting the answer a pretty pointless excercise .....if all you know at the end is how fast it went but no ide where it went ?????? whats that gain???

One thing at a time. First we find out how fast we can and then how fast accurately. Smokeless powder also faces these issues and to this day the development continues. Why should we end the issue with black powder?

[indian joe]

Not sure it’s pointless. All though I can see how some might think so.�� at any rate one question, how fast can it go go, if answered, leads to the next. How do we make it go where we want it to go? Data Watson, we need more data.


There’s a guy on YouTube who experiments with blackpowder. He loaded a number of .45 Colt rounds with a 405 grain bullet sized .452” over 25 grains of 3f Swiss powder. In a Ruger single action they were very consistent, clean burning, and accurate. Every single primer was flattened but with no extrusion. Obviously it can generate enough pressure to make very high velocity or move very heavy bullets at useful velocities. (Probably enough pressure to destroy a blackpowder rated revolver like an SAA or one of those clones.) Blackpowder is fascinating stuff, inefficient but the very inefficiencies make it also very consistent which makes it so very useful.

There is a myth (in some places) that blackpowder cannot generate high pressure - there is enough shredded steel down the pages of history to explode that myth (literally) yet it persists in some quarters. Where does that come from? unlike high explosives (or even modern smokeless powder) black needs to be heavily confined to do its best work - I dont know the full science but its about the burn rate - takes us straight back to longer barrels and heavy, slower moving projectiles.
Many years ago at a farm yard sale I bought a 50 pound bag of blasting grade BP (about 3/8 gravel size grains) and three post hole guns - NO - not the ones for splitting posts, these were designed for blowing post holes in inhospitable ground, powder chamber was about 12" long x 1" diameter (maybe 1&1/8th"), took a decent charge of powder and ignited with normal blasting fuse through a nipple at the end of the chamber - we would bash that thing into dry, hard, decomposed grainite, ten minutes or so with a 12 pound sledge hammer , lit it , drag a chunk of folded up carpet over top, about 20pound, to contain the blast. Kaboom ! the twenty inch gun would blow a post hole three feet deep that we could dig out the loose dirt with a shovel. Learnt a bit about the behaviour of black powder by time we burnt that bag of powder - also learnt a lot about soil types, this system was a waste of time for post holes in clay soil BUT in clay a longer gun that took a smaller charge would make a near perfect pre chamber for lifting a big old tree with a charge of nitro - a placed charge two feet deep right under the centre of the root system = brilliant result with minimum fuss

[indian joe]

From the Goex MSDS spec sheet 3/17/2009

2070fps

so if that is the burn speed of black powder - once the projectile is escaping at that velocitythe powder burn speed cant make it go any faster ?????

[john.k]

The Spanish tried to blow up a rolling block as part of selection trials ..........with barrel plugged ,and 270 gr of powder ,the gun could not be blown up.....This trial is widely documented.

[indian joe]

The Spanish tried to blow up a rolling block as part of selection trials ..........with barrel plugged ,and 270 gr of powder ,the gun could not be blown up.....This trial is widely documented.

"nothing is impossible to the willing student"
I blew the nipple out of one of my post hole guns - shredded the metal on its way out - used a half charge so 6 inches of powder then rammed in six inches of dirt over it - then spent about 15 minutes swinging the sledge hammer to drive that gun down into an old farm road bed - the mistake was the half charge - it was bottled up so tight that there was no place to go - the shredded nipple went what I believe was several hundred feet vertical, landed back with a clunk on the shed roof near me, tinkle tinkle plop right on the ground at my feet.

That roller that held either didnt have a big enough charge or wasnt plugged good enough else it would have blown.

[Sandro_ventania]

Today I watched a video on YouTube of a guy who made a .22 cal muzzleloader, with just an 18" barrel. It says in the video that he reached up to 3,200 fps with the lightest bullets.

[indian joe]

Today I watched a video on YouTube of a guy who made a .22 cal muzzleloader, with just an 18" barrel. It says in the video that he reached up to 3,200 fps with the lightest bullets.

do you believer it was straight blackpowder ?

[Boerrancher]

One thing everyone has failed to consider, is the maximum pressure that black powder is capable of achieving, which is 36,000 PSI. When the pressure reaches maximum, it stops burning until the pressure drops below max, and it is then reignited,by the heat. This cycle repeats itself until the projectile exits the muzzle, and the pressure drops to near zero, and the remaining unburnt powder ignites causing the ball of fire and sparks at the muzzle.

With this knowledge in hand, it is easy to understand why it is possible for longer barrels and lighter projectiles to gain higher velocities. It also leads one to conclude that in most of our guns, we are reaching the point of diminishing returns quicker than we realize, and are most likely burning more powder than we need. I absolutely noticed this with my Colt Walker. I don't remember the exact numbers now but the difference in velocity with a 210 gr conical with 40 grs of 3F was like 10 fps less than with 50 grs. I will gladly save 10 grs of powder per shot and give up 10-12 fps.

[Sandro_ventania]

do you believer it was straight blackpowder ?
Yes I believe. The author made another .22 gun, but with flint... and in this arrangement it seems he couldn't achieve more than 2,500fps.

[Sandro_ventania]

One thing everyone has failed to consider, is the maximum pressure that black powder is capable of achieving, which is 36,000 PSI. When the pressure reaches maximum, it stops burning until the pressure drops below max, and it is then reignited,by the heat. This cycle repeats itself until the projectile exits the muzzle, and the pressure drops to near zero, and the remaining unburnt powder ignites causing the ball of fire and sparks at the muzzle.

With this knowledge in hand, it is easy to understand why it is possible for longer barrels and lighter projectiles to gain higher velocities. It also leads one to conclude that in most of our guns, we are reaching the point of diminishing returns quicker than we realize, and are most likely burning more powder than we need. I absolutely noticed this with my Colt Walker. I don't remember the exact numbers now but the difference in velocity with a 210 gr conical with 40 grs of 3F was like 10 fps less than with 50 grs. I will gladly save 10 grs of powder per shot and give up 10-12 fps.

Friend, this information of yours is very important, it makes all the difference in understanding. Maximum 36,000psi and stops burning when it exceeds this value. Could you provide the source of this knowledge? I searched and found nothing! There is a black powder calculator, P-Max, which makes calculations showing pressures above that.

[nanuk]

One thing everyone has failed to consider, is the maximum pressure that black powder is capable of achieving, which is 36,000 PSI. When the pressure reaches maximum, it stops burning until the pressure drops below max, and it is then reignited,by the heat. This cycle repeats itself until the projectile exits the muzzle, and the pressure drops to near zero, and the remaining unburnt powder ignites causing the ball of fire and sparks at the muzzle.

With this knowledge in hand, it is easy to understand why it is possible for longer barrels and lighter projectiles to gain higher velocities. It also leads one to conclude that in most of our guns, we are reaching the point of diminishing returns quicker than we realize, and are most likely burning more powder than we need. I absolutely noticed this with my Colt Walker. I don't remember the exact numbers now but the difference in velocity with a 210 gr conical with 40 grs of 3F was like 10 fps less than with 50 grs. I will gladly save 10 grs of powder per shot and give up 10-12 fps.

I watched a program about Bull, the Big Gun designer
I always wondered how he believed he could put an object into orbit using black powder... but this explains it a bit.
a LOONNNGGGG barrel, and progressive burning BP charge.... 36kpsi over a long time could generate some serious velocity

could this be why some muzzleloaders had long barrels? to allow the use of heavier charges for greater velocity?

some interesting thoughts come to mind.

[nanuk]

There is a myth (in some places) that blackpowder cannot generate high pressure - there is enough shredded steel down the pages of history to explode that myth (literally) yet it persists in some quarters. Where does that come from? unlike high explosives (or even modern smokeless powder) black needs to be heavily confined to do its best work - I dont know the full science but its about the burn rate - ....

I believe history is full of examples of improvised explosive devices made using metal containers full of black powder.

If 36kpsi is the max BP can generate, then the container would have to be unable to hold that pressure to work as designed.

I also believe barrels that blow up due to obstructions have a different principle involved, something about the moving projectile's momentum compressing the air ahead of it. This is very different than the pressure to accelerate the projectile in the first place.

[firefly1957]

years ago a club member had a 66 pound bench gun that shot a .54 caliber round ball over 250 grains of powder to 2500 f/s
I have a 40 caliber 43 inch barrel on my flintlock that with a patched round ball and 70 grains of powder will deliver 2275 f/s .
That long barrel gets the same speed from both FFFG & FFG powder .

[indian joe]

[QUOTE=Boerrancher;5720234]One thing everyone has failed to consider, is the maximum pressure that black powder is capable of achieving, which is 36,000 PSI. When the pressure reaches maximum, it stops burning until the pressure drops below max, and it is then reignited,by the heat. This cycle repeats itself until the projectile exits the muzzle, and the pressure drops to near zero, and the remaining unburnt powder ignites causing the ball of fire and sparks at the muzzle.

Do you have a reference for this?? I have blown a post hole gun with black powder and from the look of the shredded metal though way more than 36K involved???

[Boerrancher]

[QUOTE=Boerrancher;5720234]One thing everyone has failed to consider, is the maximum pressure that black powder is capable of achieving, which is 36,000 PSI. When the pressure reaches maximum, it stops burning until the pressure drops below max, and it is then reignited,by the heat. This cycle repeats itself until the projectile exits the muzzle, and the pressure drops to near zero, and the remaining unburnt powder ignites causing the ball of fire and sparks at the muzzle.

Do you have a reference for this?? I have blown a post hole gun with black powder and from the look of the shredded metal though way more than 36K involved???

Actually I was being generous with 36,000 psi. Here are the results of the US Army’s testing of Black Powder. Please note that it is in metric measurements so you will have to do the conversions yourself back from atmospheres and Kg per cm2. This document proves unequivocally that if you blow up a black powder firearm it is because you did something stupid like left an air pocket, had a plugged bore, etc, or there was a flaw in the steal itself, because the Holy Black just doesn’t generate that much pressure.

https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/ADA150455.pdf

[Sandro_ventania]

[QUOTE=indian joe;5726150]

Actually I was being generous with 36,000 psi. Here are the results of the US Army’s testing of Black Powder. Please note that it is in metric measurements so you will have to do the conversions yourself back from atmospheres and Kg per cm2. This document proves unequivocally that if you blow up a black powder firearm it is because you did something stupid like left an air pocket, had a plugged bore, etc, or there was a flaw in the steal itself, because the Holy Black just doesn’t generate that much pressure.

https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/ADA150455.pdf

I tried to translate it into my language, but it wasn't good. Anyone who reads the .pdf, if you could paste the section that deals with maximum pressure here, I would be very grateful.

[Boerrancher]

[QUOTE=Boerrancher;5727334]

I tried to translate it into my language, but it wasn't good. Anyone who reads the .pdf, if you could paste the section that deals with maximum pressure here, I would be very grateful.

Go to page 28 you will find a chart that will tell you all you need to know about the maximum pressure. Keep in mind that different commercial powders have different densities, based upon the type of charcoal and the pressure at which it is pucked before it is corned. The more dense the powder the more powerful it is. That is why Swiss is one of the hottest powders on the market. Being you’re not a native English speaker, my guess is with the chart being in the metric system it will make more sense to you.

For anyone else who doesn’t want to do the math to convert from metric to Imperial the maximum PSI that the Army Proving Grounds in Aberdeen, MD, it is 19,201.5 PSI. Once again not enough pressure to destroy a modern blackpowder firearm in good working condition. If the pressure has no place to go, like a plugged bore, and you have a pipe bomb. That is why blackpowder worked so well in the pineapple hand grenades of WWI & II.

[indian joe]

[QUOTE=Sandro_ventania;5727554]

Go to page 28 you will find a chart that will tell you all you need to know about the maximum pressure. Keep in mind that different commercial powders have different densities, based upon the type of charcoal and the pressure at which it is pucked before it is corned. The more dense the powder the more powerful it is. That is why Swiss is one of the hottest powders on the market. Being you’re not a native English speaker, my guess is with the chart being in the metric system it will make more sense to you.

For anyone else who doesn’t want to do the math to convert from metric to Imperial the maximum PSI that the Army Proving Grounds in Aberdeen, MD, it is 19,201.5 PSI. Once again not enough pressure to destroy a modern blackpowder firearm in good working condition. If the pressure has no place to go, like a plugged bore, and you have a pipe bomb. That is why blackpowder worked so well in the pineapple hand grenades of WWI & II.

sorry but I find your reply itelf contradictory

the statement that "blackpowder cannot generate enough pressure to destroy a modern firearm" ----followed by "if pressure has no place to go" etc ...YES!!! thats what we are talking about - when it has no place to go my contention is it has the ability to generate pressures way in excess of 36000psi - hence blown firearms , hand grenades or whatever. (plug the bore sufficiently with a decent charge in it and you will have a blown barrel, nipple blown out, ruptured case, -- something will happen that likely results in brown marks in your underpants)

I cant find anything relevant to this in the reference posted - that chart on page 28 is (looks to me) about the physical / structural strength of blackpowder in relation to compression pressure (density) not about pressure generated in the barrel ------did I read that wrong?

earlier in the article there was talk about closed bomb but it was brief and based on ideas and theory not an actual test ????

[Boerrancher]

[QUOTE=Boerrancher;5727574]

sorry but I find your reply itelf contradictory

the statement that "blackpowder cannot generate enough pressure to destroy a modern firearm" ----followed by "if pressure has no place to go" etc ...YES!!! thats what we are talking about - when it has no place to go my contention is it has the ability to generate pressures way in excess of 36000psi - hence blown firearms , hand grenades or whatever. (plug the bore sufficiently with a decent charge in it and you will have a blown barrel, nipple blown out, ruptured case, -- something will happen that likely results in brown marks in your underpants)

I cant find anything relevant to this in the reference posted - that chart on page 28 is (looks to me) about the physical / structural strength of blackpowder in relation to compression pressure (density) not about pressure generated in the barrel ------did I read that wrong?

earlier in the article there was talk about closed bomb but it was brief and based on ideas and theory not an actual test ????

The chart on page 28 shows the Maximum pressure generated by the density of the powder, in a closed system. Earlier charts show pressure based upon density of compaction, etc. Please go back and reread all of my previous comments about pressure. All of them start or end with the words, “unless you do something stupid.” The “something stupid” is leave an air gap or plug the bore in a manner that creates a closed system, and then yes it will turn into a pipe bomb, because 20,000+ psi is a tremendous amount of pressure. If you take your favorite rifle and double or triple charge it and seat a ball on top of it like you normally would the only things that will happen is it will kick like hell because of the additional payload of unburnt powder + Ball, you will have a huge fire ball and a bunch of unburnt powder all over the ground.

[Sandro_ventania]

"From helium density
measurements of carbon, density of 1.45, and density values for sulfur and
potassium nitrate black powder can be no more dense than 1.97."

I read this text and see the graph and all I understand is that it is about the pressure used in the press and the maximum compression achieved. It says the highest density we can achieve is 1.97g/cc. The other parts I read deal with the propagation speed of the flame under a certain pressure... I think I read a test carried out at 500 atm. I also conclude that if the maximum pressure were 19,200 Psi, it would be enough to make a closed tube resistant to 20,000 Psi that even completely filled with gunpowder and sealed, it would not explode. Is it really not? I still have doubts!

[TNsailorman]

I don't know the scientific mumbo jumbo about the can and can'ts of Black Powder but I do know that the old Battleships of WW II used the holy black and those shells would get up and walk between 2700fps to 3000fps depending on the type shell/bullet being used. At least that is what I have read in military journals. I once saw a picture of a 14" hit from the Japanese battleship Kirishima on the USS South Dakota. You could probably drive a compact car thru the hole made. That was with a 2000lb shell and in an area that had 8" inches of hardened armor plate. Think of the striking energy of a 2000lb plus bullet hitting a target. Black is not to be taken lightly and given the current politics and worst worsening situations, we may at some point be back to making our own black because the smokeless is not available anymore either by regulation or scarcity. just random thoughts and an old man, james

[M-Tecs]

I don't know the scientific mumbo jumbo about the can and can'ts of Black Powder but I do know that the old Battleships of WW II used the holy black and those shells would get up and walk between 2700fps to 3000fps depending on the type shell/bullet being used. At least that is what I have read in military journals. I once saw a picture of a 14" hit from the Japanese battleship Kirishima on the USS South Dakota. You could probably drive a compact car thru the hole made. That was with a 2000lb shell and in an area that had 8" inches of hardened armor plate. Think of the striking energy of a 2000lb plus bullet hitting a target. Black is not to be taken lightly and given the current politics and worst worsening situations, we may at some point be back to making our own black because the smokeless is not available anymore either by regulation or scarcity. just random thoughts and an old man, james

Black powder was used kicker for ignition not as a main propellant in WWII. Even in WW1 most used some form of smokeless powder for artillery.

http://www.navweaps.com/index_tech/tech-100.php

http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNUS_16-50_mk7.php#ammonote13

[RogerDat]

I can't locate the Hornady (or whomever) that had load data with muzzle velocities for Inline muzzle loaders. I have one and use BP not the "pellets" so I went looking for information, found it, but can't find it again. I noted a diminishing return on bigger loads. Maybe 80 to 110 grains yielded an extra couple hundred fps. Velocities were around 1800 to just under or just over 2000 as I recall. At the time I was just interested in getting some load data for actual BP rather than just how many pellets I could load that everyone had.

After I had a load range it gave me what I wanted so I could go test for accuracy.

Those diminishing velocities made me think it would take a whole lot more powder to get one to 3,000 fps, more than would have time to burn in the barrel.

[Boerrancher]

[/QUOTE]

Those diminishing velocities made me think it would take a whole lot more powder to get one to 3,000 fps, more than would have time to burn in the barrel.[/QUOTE]

A professor of applied physics could probably take that document that I linked to, and a given bore size and projectile weight and be able to make a pretty close calculation. I barely passed Applied Physics 101, so I am not your guy for that answer.

[Boerrancher]

Think of the striking energy of a 2000lb plus bullet hitting a target. Black is not to be taken lightly and given the current politics and worst worsening situations, we may at some point be back to making our own black because the smokeless is not available anymore either by regulation or scarcity. just random thoughts and an old man, james

James, you have made a very valid point. Earlier this week Aliant just announced they were canceling all powder orders for the foreseeable future. They were not even going to fill the orders in the system due to a shortage of nitrocellulose. It is expected that other power manufacturers will follow suit. For the past year I have all but stopped shooting anything that uses smokeless powder, and have gone to all flintlock rifles. I have also been buying 2-4 lbs of the Holy Black a month. The only BP guns I own that use caps are my revolvers, and I am sitting on about 2000 caps for them, and replace them as I use them.

With all of that being said, in early 2020, I was asked by the State Militia Commander to start a Militia Company in my area, which I have done with reasonable success, as Missouri actually has a legislatively created state militia to serve as a reserve component to the Missouri National Guard. Taking my previous military experience to heart as a student of military history, one of the things I recommend to people for their preparation if they were hunters was a small bore 32 or 36 cal flintlock rifle or an English Fowler of the 20 ga variety if they had bad eyes, and to learn to use them well and stock pile lead in balls and shot. We know from history that hard economic times drives large game to the brink of extinction, so just like my grandparents in the Great Depression, small game will be what is available, so there is no need to waste powder and lead in anything larger than a 36 cal. Plus with a 36 cal 60 grs of 3F and 2 patched balls inside of 40 yds will quickly dispatch a deer or an elk, with a well placed shot.

The point being, I can hunt with a blackpowder rifle and at the same time have an AR strapped on my back for self defense, and not have to expend ammunition I might not be able to replace, if the powers that be have their way. I also know from history, that the Mujahadine in Afghanistan, started initially defeating the Soviets, with a few Lee Enfield SMLE rifles and a lot of Muzzleloaders. We think of them with their AK 47s and RPG 7’s but that was not until they had captured Soviet Supply lines, and acquired the AKs and RPGs, because the Communist government that had deposed the King, had confiscated anything that was not black powder.

[indian joe]

[QUOTE=indian joe;5727601]

The chart on page 28 shows the Maximum pressure generated by the density of the powder, in a closed system. Earlier charts show pressure based upon density of compaction, etc. Please go back and reread all of my previous comments about pressure. All of them start or end with the words, “unless you do something stupid.” The “something stupid” is leave an air gap or plug the bore in a manner that creates a closed system, and then yes it will turn into a pipe bomb, because 20,000+ psi is a tremendous amount of pressure. If you take your favorite rifle and double or triple charge it and seat a ball on top of it like you normally would the only things that will happen is it will kick like hell because of the additional payload of unburnt powder + Ball, you will have a huge fire ball and a bunch of unburnt powder all over the ground.

top of page 27 under the heading from page 26
IX STRUCTURAL STRENGTH OF BLACKPOWDER
"Intrinsic strength ------ Several 1cm cylinders (of blackpowder) with diameter of 1.3cm, each having different density -- slowly compressed until they shattered and that pressure given as a function of density in figure seven "
figure seven is the graph you quote on page 28
its the crush pressure of powder cylinders formed from powder of different density
this graph is not about pressure generated from combustion at all

so we back to the point of contention about maximum pressure

I agree with you about overloads under a single projectile --- law of diminishing returns - blowing excess powder out on the ground - 2000fps is about the limit unless we go to small calibres and really long barrels -- the firearm becomes unwieldy and impractical before we get to the absolute limit (whatever that is)

But close the system and tell me that blackpowder is incapable of generating pressure in excess of 36000psi ? I dont believe that until I see concrete test numbers that prove it and there is nothing in that 28 pages that does so......................................

[Sandro_ventania]

I do speaking it too