Terrible 44 mag rifle groups

[wallacem]

I had a NEF 44 mag rifle for years that shot very good groups with almost everything I stuffed in it. Sold it and picked up a new CVA single shot rifle in 44 mag. Group size is bad with everything. I am getting the best groups with 260 and 300 gr cast bullets sized 4.32" They are around 2.5" at 50 yards. EVERYTHING else, including several factory loads is grouping 3-6" at 50 yards. I have tried full power, very low power, mid power, and nothing works. The only difference I know is my NEF was a 1 in 38" twist, and the CVA is 1 in 20" twist. Tell me what to do.

[Kestrel4k]

The most accurate 44Mag load I have ever shot is the Hornady LE 225gr FTX factory load; this does honest 1" 5-shot groups at 100 yds from my Ruger 77/44 (1:20" twist rate).
Also less than a half-inch at 50yds from my Marlin 336-44 (1:38" twist rate); I have evaluated multiple lots of this ammo and it is extremely consistent.

The Standard Deviation I had recorded when I was evaluating that load in the Ruger, was /seven/ fps - extremely consistent for a 1760 fps loading.
That ammo is also commonly available; I would try that as a benchmark. Please keep us updated,

[versa-06]

Howdy wallacem; I bought a Henry 44 with a 1:20 twist & did the same thing. I took some JB bore cleaner (kinda gritty) & hand lapped the barrel with many, many strokes. Then cleaned the barrel with Hoppes' #9 to get the grit out, then dry patched it til clean. Worked for me, Maybe for you? -06

[white eagle]

I think your problem is with CVA
they have had a terrible muzzleloaders that they sold
may be the same with their other rifle as well

[elmacgyver0]

This is called Karma, pay back for selling the NEF.
Unless you are in the business, never sell guns.

[Bass Ackward]

I am getting the best groups with 260 and 300 gr cast bullets sized 4.32" They are around 2.5" at 50 yards. EVERYTHING else, including several factory loads is grouping 3-6" at 50 yards. I have tried full power, very low power, mid power, and nothing works.

Sounds like the “classic” long throat. The beauty of a single shot is you aren’t tied to overall length. The longer bullets are still in the case to aid with centering. So seat out until you are just off the lands and see what happens.

[Hannibal]

A chamber cast and bore slugging will provide the definitive reason if you're willing to go to the effort.

[Tripplebeards]

One, it could be your trigger, two, it could be your crimp. I had horrible groups in my 77/44 till I started using the lee factory crimp die. The crimp style took my same loads with 4 to 6 inch plus groups to sub MOA.

[Jadkins87]

We have a cva hunter/Scout in 44mag and shoot the Barnes vortex all cooper 225grain thru it for deer hunting for the kids. it shoots amazing 1inch or under all day. my son at 9 could put 4 inside a quarter at 75 yards. We have tried a unknow semi wad cutter with copper jacket and they was all over the place. Hope to try something new this year with it the barnes cost to dang much..

God Bless

JDAS

[Hannibal]

One, it could be your trigger, two, it could be your crimp. I had horrible groups in my 77/44 till I started using the lee factory crimp die. The crimp style took my same loads with 4 to 6 inch plus groups to sub MOA.

That would be most unusual but since I wasn't there I'll take your word for it.

I would tend to suspect a bad crown or inconsistent bore diameter in that order.

[wallacem]

Thanks so far guys. I am giving full thought to each comment. Any more? Wallacem

[GhostHawk]

I'm with Hannibal, I'd start with a chamber cast and work from there.

After I learned about pound casts here I have not slugged a barrel. a good chamber cast gives you the exact information you need to make a rifle shoot.

Including size of boolit required. (which is where I suspect your problem is) how long to seat it so it is just a hair off the rifling.

Just because they call a mold .430 does not mean that is what it is actually dropping with your alloy.

Start with a chamber cast, figure boolit size = groove depth + 2 thousandths at least. So if groove mics .430 you want cast at least .432.

[cwtebay]

You may try seating a bullet long in an empty case to chamber and get chamber length. It may be a crazy long chamber as noted above and the free bore is contributing to the accuracy issues.

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk

[steve urquell]

I have a CVA V2 in .300blk. It is very accurate with a nice factory trigger. Having one I have read every thread about them for years and the .44mag has always been the one most people have accuracy problems with.

Someone on anothe forum said they contacted CVA about them and was told they recommended the 300gr Hornady XTP. They loaded some and went from 8" groups to 1.5".

Many threads out there on this issue makes me think this rifle will shoot but is very picky about what it eats.

[725]

As above, slug the barrel and shoot cast +.002. A clean barrel goes w/o saying. Have yo tried the Lee 310? good luck

[mike salyards]

How is your barrel doing for leading? I recently purchased a new Ruger Marlin lever action in 44 mag I've had better groups and no leading with copper jacketed bullets but when I switch to a 300 grain gas check bullet I ended up doing a little mining and had some real crummy targets I'm fooling with some other bullets now that are copper jacketed and we'll go from there. There are so many variables to play with when shooting lead bullets.

[Hannibal]

As above, slug the barrel and shoot cast +.002. A clean barrel goes w/o saying. Have yo tried the Lee 310? good luck

When I brought up slugging I also meant to check to the entire length for tight/lose spots and to make sure the bore diameter doesn't increase toward the muzzle.

Any of those 3 problems can cause a lot of grief.

I had a Henry .357Mag that shot similarly to what the OP described. When I slugged the bore I found 4 tight spots. On at the stamping for the caliber, one at each of the sight dovetails and one at the dovetail for the magazine tube.

No more Henry rifles for me.

Just about any rifle will shoot 2 MOA unless there is a significant problem. That Henry was ridiculous given the cost.

[DougGuy]

Can't believe no one has mentioned fit to the throat this far in the thread! Yes a chamber cast or slugging the throat area at least will tell you what boolit diameter will fit the throat.

[Hannibal]

I'd suspect a bigger problem than throat fit if it's puking out 3"-6," groups at 50 yards. Perhaps a combination of problems.

Again, slug the full length of the bore and make a chamber cast. Otherwise you're just pitching ideas up on the wall and hoping something sticks.

[Nobade]

My Marlin 44 mag does the same thing, and it's a result of the very large and long throat and the .433" groove diameter. Normal 44 loads just don't work. So I use it one of two ways, for low power shooting I load soft lead bullets and black powder. .430" bullets will bump up to fill the throat and shoot great. For high power loads I size bullets to .427" and paper patch them up to .433 - .434. Just use whatever fits nicely in a fired case. Then I seat them out long, to touch the rifling and load with a whole lot more powder than a normal 44 mag, basically 445 Supermag loads since I now have the case capacity. Of course I can't use the rifle as a repeater like this, but it is fantastically accurate and quite powerful, with less than half the drop at 200M as a regular full power 44 mag load. I also suspect, though I haven't tried it, a bullet like the one Ranch Dog designed for the 357 leverguns, with a short nose and long body to fill the throat would work also and with normal loads.

[steve urquell]

Some good reading on people tinkering with these:

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?350229-CVA-Hunter-in-44-Magnum

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?404964-CVA-scout-2-44-mag

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?215971-Accuracy-Trouble-with-44-Mag-Single-Shot-Rifle

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?174610-Trouble-with-CVA-Scout-44-mag

https://www.google.com/search?q=CVA++44+mag.+Group+size+is+bad+site:castb oolits.gunloads.com&client=firefox-b-1-d&sca_esv=070a86fdf7893579&sca_upv=1&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjct_-ytZqFAxV6ITQIHQMLAfAQrQIoBHoECCEQBQ&biw=1680&bih=897&dpr=1#ip=1

[lar45]

Are you using open sights or a scope?
If a scope, make sure the base screws are clean and loktited in place.

[wallacem]

Just to cover a few, I slugged the bbl, .431 dia. I am using .432 and .433 dia cast bullets. I am loading the bullet out to almost touch. It is not a long throat. Have not measured dia of throat, but the .433 bullets slide in with just a little pressure, don't just drop in like the .432 bullets do. there are no tight spots in the bbl. The trigger is about 2 lbs, one of the bright spots about the rifle. I did have trouble with the screws coming loose on the base, locktighted them. Thats all I can think of right now. Wallacem

[steve urquell]

Just to cover a few, I slugged the bbl, .431 dia. I am using .432 and .433 dia cast bullets. I am loading the bullet out to almost touch. It is not a long throat. Have not measured dia of throat, but the .433 bullets slide in with just a little pressure, don't just drop in like the .432 bullets do. there are no tight spots in the bbl. The trigger is about 2 lbs, one of the bright spots about the rifle. I did have trouble with the screws coming loose on the base, locktighted them. Thats all I can think of right now. Wallacem

CVA's recommendation to several people is to try the Hornady 300gr XTP in these. They did replace someone's rifle in one of the threads I read and it came back grouping well.

[DougGuy]

Your .433" being snug enough to feel the difference when loading tells me that one fits the throat nicely.

[Hannibal]

Just to cover a few, I slugged the bbl, .431 dia. I am using .432 and .433 dia cast bullets. I am loading the bullet out to almost touch. It is not a long throat. Have not measured dia of throat, but the .433 bullets slide in with just a little pressure, don't just drop in like the .432 bullets do. there are no tight spots in the bbl. The trigger is about 2 lbs, one of the bright spots about the rifle. I did have trouble with the screws coming loose on the base, locktighted them. Thats all I can think of right now. Wallacem

Based on that, you shouldn't be experiencing groups like you are. You mentioned base screws coming loose. That usually means the base and receiver aren't mating well. I'd think about bedding the base and receiver with JB weld or a similar epoxy. Also, I presume you're using a scope since you mentioned base screws. Do a scope swap and see how it shoots.

[Rapier]

You can shoot cast bullets just to shoot, like throwing rocks. If you want to shoot for accuracy, then there are steps you need to follow. Not one mention of the steps in your original posts. Basically you are throwing rocks and nothing more.
You want accuracy with a 44 Mag do the steps.
1) You clean the bore to bright steel, remove ing all copper residue.
2) You slug the bore to get the exact groove diameter.
3) You prepare your brass completely, sort and trim the brass.
4) You reload with a bullet sized to groove or no more than .001 over.
5) You use a bullet weight that keeps the bullet base in the case when it fully engages the lands.
6) You use a taper crimp to just straighten the case mouth on a single shot.
7) You seat as a seperate step, ignore the revolver OAL, seat for that rifle.
8) You switch primers to LR.
9) You change to the Standard Silhouette load of 23gr 296/110 and a 240 grain cast SWC, that is a 1" load at 100 meters in a revolver, which means if it will not shoot in a rifle, well, bud, you have more problems than the bore, grooves, and loads..

I had a new TC one time that had a for crap bore, chattered grooves and lands, both. I fire lapped it, intentionally, from .308 to a .312. Cast bullets made up to size and won over a dozen marches with it, so cast and custom bore sizes go together.

[303carbine]

I had a NEF 44 mag rifle for years that shot very good groups with almost everything I stuffed in it. Sold it and picked up a new CVA single shot rifle in 44 mag. Group size is bad with everything. I am getting the best groups with 260 and 300 gr cast bullets sized 4.32" They are around 2.5" at 50 yards. EVERYTHING else, including several factory loads is grouping 3-6" at 50 yards. I have tried full power, very low power, mid power, and nothing works. The only difference I know is my NEF was a 1 in 38" twist, and the CVA is 1 in 20" twist. Tell me what to do.

I had the same CVA Scout TD in 44 mag, same problem, I tried everything and got the same results as you. I sold it and will not buy another.:sad:
However, my CVA Scout TD in 45-70 shoots through the same hole at 75 yds, the 440 grain cast zip through the chrony at 1735 fps.:holysheep
The 540 grain Postell style cast bullet clocks in at 1380 fps, they only drop about 11 inches at 200 yds.:Fire:

[white eagle]

I still stand by the issue isn't you, but CVA
it's obvious you know how to load and shoot the 44 magnum, being your previous rifle shot fantastic groups
check and see what other CVA shooters are getting with their rifle's
good luck

[dverna]

Stuff like this is very frustrating. I had a .22 Hornet that would not shoot even with jacketed bullets. Bought it used and sold it for at a small loss. Was worth it to me to get rid of it.

Cannot add to all the hints and suggestions already offered.

Hope you sort things out. If not, send it down the road and get something fun to shoot.

[steve urquell]

One, it could be your trigger, two, it could be your crimp. I had horrible groups in my 77/44 till I started using the lee factory crimp die. The crimp style took my same loads with 4 to 6 inch plus groups to sub MOA.


Im gonna quote this to reiterate it. My FIL recently was having problems with his 9mm loads. I showed him how his crimp (Lee FCD)was swaging his .357" boolits down to .348". I always seat a bullet and then pull it and measure it to make sure the crimp is not resizing it.

[Three44s]

Do these CVAs suffer from the same problems we find with Contenders? That of hinge pin looseness?

The other suggestion is to track down your NEF and buy it back ...

Three44s

[trapper9260]

I have a Marlin 44 mag and it shoots the same ammo no matter what it is as in the RH . I size them to .431 . I did at first when I was just in the RH , after I got the Marlin . The groups was not like I wanted then I went to .431 and then the groups close up to where I like them to be. I shoot those in the RH after and did better . Just to give some ideas on what the OP been haven .

[Charlie Horse]

Something that has made a noticeable improvement with my Rossi 357 is to size my powder coated boolits upside-down so the base enters the Lee push die first. Doing them nose first left a thin skirt on the base that I could feel but not otherwise detect.
Might try that.

It even helped with my Tikka 223 bolt action using Lee 55 grain powder coated boolits without a gas check.

[Tallison1911]

Just a silly thought, contact the manufacturer tell them what's going on see if they will do warranty work on it. Maybe you'll get lucky.

[MichaelR]

1/20 is a fast twist for a lead pistol bullet. I have a 50-100-450 WCF lever that has a 1/26 twist which is also too fast. It shoots jacketed bullets fine but 20/1 or HT LBT bullets scatted all over. But it does shoot PP lead bullets very well. The paper keeps them from stripping the rifling I think. Just for your information. I don’t know if it’ll help.

[bmortell]

also tinkering with a cva 44, it was doing 5 moa+ with cast, lever revolution, 240 xtp. bought .431 240gr sp from everglades to try fat jacketed. and i epoxy bedded the scope base and noticed the front stock can wiggle 1/8" toward the barrel. it sits on 2 set screws i adjusted the front one out till theres light contact pressure closing the front stock latch. the other one out till its noticeably more when closing the latch then back in a hair so its equitant to the front one. idk if thats proper procedure but the stock dont wiggle now so i imagine thats better.

on avg groups seem to be improving. i got a 1.9 moa 5 shot with titegroup and .431 jacketed, slower powders still seems around 4moa. but im still mid testing gotta try cast more and paper patch. ill update if i find anything usefull

[gwpercle]

Advice for the Future

If you have a gun that shoots good groups with anything you stuff in it ...

Do Not Sell It !

As my Daddy put it ...
" Gary , never sell a gun you like ... you will come to regret it ."
And whooo-boy was my old man ever right ... Keep the Good Shooters !
Gary

[wallacem]

OK, back with a couple answers. I am shooting .433 dia bullets and smaller. the .433 bullets just barely go inthe chamber. Have to give them a push to make them go in. That tells me they are as big as I can shoot. I load them out just barely off the lands. Don't know what else to try. Wallacem

[steve urquell]

OK, back with a couple answers. I am shooting .433 dia bullets and smaller. the .433 bullets just barely go inthe chamber. Have to give them a push to make them go in. That tells me they are as big as I can shoot. I load them out just barely off the lands. Don't know what else to try. Wallacem

Have you pulled a crimped bullet and measured it? Check to see if your crimp is swaging it down in size.

[Nobade]

If you have any Cerrosafe you can pour a relatively long slug and push it through the bore to check for tight spots and twist rate changes.