Found a can of deteriorating powder

[Kent Fowler]

I keep three 8# cans and a couple 3# cans (all 1995 vintage Winchester powder, W296,W231, Superlite, Super Field AA) laying on their sides in a 4' wide office filing cabinet with a row of 1# cans standing upright at the back of the drawer. Noticed a never opened 1# plastic can of VV-N350 (prob. 2009-2011 vintage) left a "rusty" spot on the bottom of the cabinet where it was sitting and upon closer inspection the can had the rust powder all over it. What's strange is the top of the 8# W231 metal can which was adjacent to the VV appears all rusty. Thought initially the W231 had gone bad but the powder was almost odor free and looked great. It appears when the VV started deteriorating, it off gassed and coated the top of the W231 with red powder. Pulled the sealing tab off the VV and a quick sniff of it almost crossed my eyeballs. It surprised me the VV powder, manufactured ~13 years later than the WW, went bad this quick, while all of the older WW powders passed the visual and smell test. What started me looking was an article in a gun mag a couple months ago about checking one's older powders for deterioration. I had been complacent about it as all my powders have been kept in air conditioning since purchase. As Chuck Berry said, It goes to show you never can tell.

[MUSTANG]

Powder deterioration is probably due to a batch that was out of spec somewhere during production. Given our powder shortages and now euphemistically seeming to be reaching orbital trajectories in price increases; I have been reading for last few months on powder production over the last 150 years. Although I am no chemist, and am probably missing much of the nitty gritty of the processes in my readings - it is amazing the breadth of Chemical reactions and manufacturing processes that have been tried and implemented over the last 150 years to stabilize and lengthen storage times. The fact that we see less powder deterioration today compared to even 50 years ago I find amazing after all of my readings.

[dverna]

Interesting post. I was under the impression powder stored in decent conditions would last decades. I have two jugs of VV bought long ago when they commanded a premium and was "saving" them. I will use them up first if they have not gone bad.

BTW had great results with VV but found a cheaper alternative.

[35 Rem]

I had a similar experience when two 8lb cans of IMR 4320 went bad while sitting beside a 8lb can of IMR 4350 on one side and 8lbs of IMR 4831 on the other. Scared me to see all the cans rusted so badly. Thankfully only the two cans of IMR 4320 were actually bad. One of them had rotted through and caused significant corrosion to adjacent cans but it did not go through the can to the powder inside.

I still have reservations about whether the IMR 4320 was actually unusable or not. It was full of red "rust" powder which I had developed a plan to remove. I poured out several ounces of the powder onto a paper towel, then picking up the towel by the corners I would slowly pour the powder onto another paper towel. A lot of the "rust" would be left behind. By repeating this back and forth several times enough "rust" would be removed that the powder looked normal again. I shot some after doing this in my 35 Remington and everything seemed ok. But I got nervous about it and decided to make the remainer into the most expensive foodplot fertilize ever used. :(

[fredj338]

I've got powder 20+, still good. I did have one can of H4831 go bad, no explanation, all stored the same. Leads me to think it was poorly stored before I bought it.

[higgins]

You can get the rust out of the powder with a magnet but then you have to get it off of the magnet which is tedious. An electromagnet would be great for that chore.

[Kestrel4k]

You can get the rust out of the powder with a magnet but then you have to get it off of the magnet which is tedious. An electromagnet would be great for that chore.
I rather doubt that the red powder is ferritic for this particular case.

[high standard 40]

Two years ago I found a deteriorating can of powder in my cabinet. VV133. Not long after I found another can of bad powder in the cabinet, Again VV133 and it had a different batch number. The fumes from that stuff would sing your nose hair. It kinda soured my opinion of VV powders. Both of these had been stored in a climate controlled room ever since I brought them home.

[dondiego]

When I had a batch of powder that deteriorated, it off gassed acetic acid and it damaged any brass in the area. It was pulled from US Military 50 BMG stuff and it was old. 5051 I believe from the bulk powder seller at the time. I have jugs of the same stuff that is OK..........

[elk hunter]

Old powder that is deteriorating can spontaneously combust so be careful.

[TurnipEaterDown]

The production of smokeless gunpowder involves the use of acids.

If not fully neutralized, the residual acids in the powder will contribute to an increase in deterioration rate.
As the powder deteriorates (initiated by whatever means, residual acid, contamination, environmental factors of storage, whatever), more acid (Nitric I remember) is produced. This is the "brown fumes". Often a rusty brown fuzz like coating will appear on the powder. By this point the stability of the powder is seriously in question.

Unstable powder can spontaneously ignite, or may just eat up a metal can and 'cause a mess'. I recently saw an 'eaten up' can of very old gunpowder at a reloader-hoarder residence. I suspect that this is what happened, thankfully no fire.

One thing I had happen to me some years back:
I bought some surplus 4895 some 20 years ago. I don't like filling a trickler or measure out of an 8 lb jug particularly, so I transferred some to empty 1 pound powder containers I had had around. The 4895 transferred to stick powder plastic can stored well through the present day. The powder transferred to an empty metal can, from ball powder, deteriorated in about 5 years - fuzzy, rusty, etc.
Could be several causes for the difference in storage life of the 2 cans of transferred powder, but when I do that now I try to use well washed containers from the same type of powder, or new HDPE 1 pound containers (and I wash the new ones too).

After seeing a post (maybe here) a number of months ago where a member stated that he/she had some VV powder that completely degraded to the 'brown gas' condition in about 10 years, and then reading some material on VV powders where there was comment of 10 year shelf life as a standard for shelf life acceptance, and knowing that in every industry productivity and cost come into play, I seriously wonder if washes in the manufacturing process now have a more "liberal" acceptance criteria for remaining residual acids for some producers than they did decades ago.
I say this because I recently picked up some 55+ year old H4831 -- looks brand new, and passed all my evaluations for acceptability.


Brings me to another thought:
I periodically (though infrequently) wash my powder handling equipment. More so if I use an older stock powder that looks a little more 'gray and dusty' than I would expect for its type (I don't mean rusty & brown - that goes in the bushes).
Does anyone else wash their powder handling equipment at times?

[Kent Fowler]

Having experienced this problem and from reading the replies, I'm going segregate the remaining two pounds of VV powders I have from the rest and keep a lot closer eye on them. Guess I could start loading out of them but I'm assuming the powder can go bad in a cartridge case just as easily as in a container, if I can't get around to shooting up the ammo.

[lightman]

VV is one of the few powders that I've ever had deteriorate. And Norma ammo is the only ammo that I have had that corroded internally and ate through the case. Both were stored in a controlled environment.

[William Yanda]

You can get the rust out of the powder with a magnet but then you have to get it off of the magnet which is tedious. An electromagnet would be great for that chore.

If the magnet is in a sandwich bag, removal of the rust happens when you remove the magnet from the bag.

[Bazoo]

I have a small amount of IMR4227 that had red dust in it when I got it from a friend. I wouldn't have noticed it, as I use a red powder measure and it was very little, but I emptied the powder into a clear tupperware container to weigh how much I had received. I did a lot of research on it at the time, and I found that there is a lot of people who still shoot powder when it's in that phase. Some of them had chronographed the results and it turned out the powder loses a bit of its energy, but other than that, there seemed to be no ill effect. The consensus from those who shot the powder was it was perfectly fine for immediate use, but of course, not to be stored for any length of time.

The powder I have does not appear to have red dust in it any longer since I have moved it around some and the dust gets coated in graphite and disappears. I moved it to a ziplock bag, since the can was rusty, and I have it front and center on my shelf so I can monitor it. I've shot some of it, and it fired as expected in 44 Magnum.

Here's a link to the thread where I first began asking about it. I was convinced it was rust dust, and there was rust in the can, but it became obvious that it was powder deterioration. I still have the powder in question, and it's still on my shelf where I monitor it. No change after a couple years now.

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?402405-Red-dust-in-powder/page3

[Bmi48219]

…..I have two jugs of VV bought long ago when they commanded a premium….BTW had great results with VV but found a cheaper alternative.

Never could understand the appeal of VV. A few friends swear by it for 45 acp & 9mm. From what I’ve seen it’s sooty and way too expensive compared to most any other powder.

A lot of the comments refer to cans rusting through. Oldest powder I have is so 1970’s Herco in a cardboard can with a metal top and plastic cap. I don’t profess to be an expert but I’d guess powder is pretty dry when packaged and contains some variety of salt. As with anything dry it must attract and absorb airborne moisture. Not to hard to believe those old metallic containers aren’t exactly humidity proof.
I’m thinking, better off with full, well sealed plastic jugs.

[oley55]

Quote Originally Posted by higgins View Post
You can get the rust out of the powder with a magnet but then you have to get it off of the magnet which is tedious. An electromagnet would be great for that chore.


If the magnet is in a sandwich bag, removal of the rust happens when you remove the magnet from the bag.

Not saying a magnet will work for the red dust identified in this thread, but a swarf magnet/collector is a super handy item for most any garage or shop. They seem pricey for what they are so I made several (for self, sons, and my gun smith). I used 1/2" copper pipe. Just do an internet search for swarf magnet or swarf collector.

[kevin c]

Wow, my stock is mostly VV powder, some of which is more than ten years old, but I’ve never had any powder go bad on me (stored costly in moderate temperatures and humidity).

I agree with BMI on the cost, but in my loads it’s been pretty clean.

[joelpend]

I have been reloading for 50 years and have way more powder and powder types than one should have. I like VV powders so this is not to talk them down. VV N120 is the only powder I have ever had go bad. My friend also had VVN120 go bad. The brown stuff is highly corrosive, I believe nitric acid maybe (I am certainly no chemist). It will ruin stuff in the proximity of the bad powder. At my friends it went undetected for some time due to his illness and it caused other powders to go bad and dies to rust, etc. It apparently can permeate through the plastic bottles into other powder. One of the powders was almost solidified. Really surprising. Worth keeping an eye out and if you smell or see something unusual investigate the source.

[dondiego]

I have been reloading for 50 years and have way more powder and powder types than one should have. I like VV powders so this is not to talk them down. VV N120 is the only powder I have ever had go bad. My friend also had VVN120 go bad. The brown stuff is highly corrosive, I believe nitric acid maybe (I am certainly no chemist). It will ruin stuff in the proximity of the bad powder. At my friends it went undetected for some time due to his illness and it caused other powders to go bad and dies to rust, etc. It apparently can permeate through the plastic bottles into other powder. One of the powders was almost solidified. Really surprising. Worth keeping an eye out and if you smell or see something unusual investigate the source.

When my powder went bad it off gassed acetic acid and it was quite corrosive.

[dale2242]

I recently made a sniff and look test of all my powders to check them for deterioration.
All is well in the loading room.

[Cast10]

New discovery this week. I had run some test loads without chronographing, just seeing which load was more accurate. This was my first mistake. I usually chrony all test loads while shooting for group.

The accurate load chrony’d about 150fps SLOWER and ES was very high. This powder was from 1987 and had only the usual smell. I had not loaded any of this type in a while, so visually, it looked ok.

I pulled some bullets and dumped powder and weights didn’t reveal anything that just stood out. I use a Chargemaster Combo and on spot tests, it has always been VERY VERY close if not spot on. I tested again, OK.

I was able to locate some new powder fairly close and picked it up. Upon pouring into the Chargemaster I notice a definite ‘color change’. I retrieved the older canister and poured some out. The older powder had a GREENISH tint, but smelled OK, maybe a bit stronger, but pure nitro.
The canister was also very clean, no rust on bottom or inside/outside lid. It was an older Winchester tube type can of cardboard with metal bottom and top/screw-on lid.

Wondering if anyone has every experienced this?