Big Heavy Bones, Bullet Alloy & Powder Coat

[ranchman]

I started casting and powder coating my own bullets a little over a year ago now. Up to that point I had a fellow nearby casting & lubing the traditional way for me (but he sold out, retired and is no more).

Long story short, the bullets I had been getting cast by him previously were a home blended alloy made up to be as near to Lyman #2 & 15BNH as a guy could get. On my hardness scale I have measured many of them to be very close to 15 as they were supposed to be, and I know I could trust their performance. By experience, those harder blended bullets worked well on both cows & bulls having heavy bones, thick skin and layered muscle to penetrate past at times. This was-too my alloy for loading ammo while carrying (revolvers) remotely where bears were a concern ... so going forward, what degree should I adjust (or not adjust) my alloy to NOW, by Powder coating vs traditional lube, that will still keep a hard, malleable enough bullet integrity to break and pass through large bones in heavy large animals?

The general consensus with powder coating is go as soft as you can, the powder coat will allow the soft alloys to shoot regardless. But in contact with big heavy bones, where is the line for hardness and alloy?? I can't see it being wise to cut the hardness by much. But lots has been argued around the powder coat acting like a jacket and that it-does allow some adjustment down in hardness. So what is the real answer(?)

What are you guys who have hunted buffalo, or bears, moose/Elk etc (using revolvers) all using for an alloy to retain bullet integrity to make sure it isn't deforming too bad, and indeed does hold its shape after breaking bones still intact enough to continue-on rather than stop or mash into a mushroom? 10-12BNH wheelweight, powder coated going to be sufficient , or is it wiser to stay 15+BNH using Lyman #2 regardless whether its powder coated? I'd love to hear some actual field evidence and comment on that if there is any on the forum.

[Thumbcocker]

Air cooled wheel weights worked on critters up to Gemsbuck and Kudu for me.

[Bass Ackward]

People can be disappointed if they don’t have confidence. See, lead gains strength with diameter too.

But you can always test it. Go to the local meat shop and pick up some large beef bones. Mimic soft tissue with equal thickness of wet news print in front of it. I spray paint the outline of the bone to give something to aim at. All for not though if you don’t catch the slug. Water or straw. Just remember to test close and out. You MUST establish the minimum and maximum distance your goals are achieved or failure will result.

[elk hunter]

I had a 400 grain 45-70 bullet, cast from wheel weight, break up when it struck the upper front leg bone on a big Mule Deer buck at about 25 yards. It probably was going 1300 FPS. The wife and I have taken several elk with 385 grain soft cast conicals propelled by 100 to 120 grains of 2 FG black that passed completely through so were not recovered. I took a KUDU with a 525 grain cast bullet made from linotype going about 1600 FPS. It too was a pass through. I made a frontal chest shot on a Cape Buffalo with the same 525 linotype bullet at 20 yards. The bullet was recovered in the paunch and the flat nose of the bullet had deformed but had only lost 7 grains of weight.

Based on my limited experience I would opt for a reasonably heavy bullet cast from 50/50 wheel weight and soft lead with a large meplat for taking just about any game here in North America. I believe such a bullet would expand and hold together enough to penetrate to the vitals of just about anything short of the African or Asian heavy's.

Again just my over priced $.0.02 worth.

[ranchman]

Appreciate the comments so far. Gemsbok & Kudu are pretty tough animals. Those bullets were probably around 10bnh if any of my tests were accurate on my own air cooled wheelweights.. I don't think they'd be far off for hardness from what went through those animals. Good to know.

Elk Hunter; any idea why the 400's shattered on a Mulie's leg bone... that sounds a bit strange. Were they water quenched wheelweights, or any chance that they were cast with a blend of the softer pure lead ones? Clip on's and stick on's, the different kinds each have different alloys is why I ask that. Mulie doesn't have especially big or dense bones anyplace, especially not for a 45/70 bullet. I wonder if there's something more to that.

[gwpercle]

Bore / boolit diameter needs to be factored in ...
... 22 cal or 45 cal ?
The more info we have ... the better the answer .

As a general rule I find a 50-50 mix of COWW and range scrap (soft lead ) / air cooled , to be a good hunting boolit alloy,
this mix will make a boolit that doesn't shatter or break up on bone ... bhn is about 9 maybe 8.5 but that is a good blend .
Gary

[405grain]

My $0.02 is probably only worth half a cent as I have never hunted elk, moose, bears, or buffalo. I have hunted deer and feral pigs, so I can make a couple of observations. First, bullet hardness is not an indicator of alloy content. You could take two different bullets; one made from lead with a lot of antimony and very little tin, and another with lead and equal amounts of tin and antimony. Both bullets could theoretically be the same hardness, but the high antimony bullet could be brittle while the bullet with the higher tin content would be more ductile. Within limits expansion, penetration, and weight retention would be better with a bullet that's more ductile. Personally I try to make bullets that are air cooled to around 13 BHN that use a good balance of SB/SN in the mix.

When I would develop a cast bullet for hunting, I'd test it out on a stack of water soaked news paper (or phone books & catalogs) that had a piece of scrap 3/4" plywood inside. The plywood represented bone. What I'd be looking for was how well the bullet held up after striking "bone". Did it still penetrate? Did the bullet fragment and either loose power, or cause a bunch of meat damage after going through "bone"? Did the bullet exit the test stack or did it remain lodged inside? What type of wound cavity did it produce? In my testing I found that solid bullets with a flat point worked better than either round nosed or hollow points. In both rifle and pistol bullets with a good sized meplat, they penetrated deeper, held together better, and produced "wound channels" that were the same or better than hollowpoints, and much better than round nosed bullets.

Unfortunately the state where I live has banned the use of lead in all hunting bullets, and this happened just around the time that powder coating was becoming popular, so I have no input on the potential benefits of PC bullets for hunting. In retrospect, my 1/2 cents worth of opinion might be being effected by inflation.

[MT Gianni]

Powder coating allows you to shoot a softer alloy because of the coating. Softer alloys are generally less expensive, but you know that your alloy works. PC'ing it should not change that fact.

[poppy42]

There’s no consensus about powder coating and Shooting the softest bullets possible. I think you’re a little confused as the previous poster mentioned. The idea is that you can use a softer alloy when powder coating because the powder coating is your lubricant and decreases the possibility of leading. There is absolutely no reason why you should change the hardness of a hunting bullet that is working and doing what you wanted to do just because your powder coating! Powder coating is nothing more than an alternate to lubing which by its nature allows you to get higher velocities out of your Cast Boolets! That’s it! Cast your number to alloyed bullets powder coat them and have a blast! No reason to change your hardness just because your powder coating! I hope this clears things up for you.

[elk hunter]

Elk Hunter; any idea why the 400's shattered on a Mulie's leg bone... that sounds a bit strange. Were they water quenched wheelweights, or any chance that they were cast with a blend of the softer pure lead ones? Clip on's and stick on's, the different kinds each have different alloys is why I ask that. Mulie doesn't have especially big or dense bones anyplace, especially not for a 45/70 bullet. I wonder if there's something more to that.

That was at least 30 years ago and as I recall the bullet was straight clip on wheel weight metal. The buck was very close and at the shot the shoulder dropped and the buck went maybe 20 yards and laid down. I had to shoot him again to finish him. When we skinned him we found that the bullet nose had shattered and what was left, probably less than half, went on thru. The large leg bone was broken and his lungs looked like he had been shot with a shotgun. I once had a bonded core 350 grain "Grizzly" bullet from my Siamese Mauser 45-70 shatter, jacket and core, when it hit the large front leg bone of a rag-horn bull elk at about 40 yards. Again it looked like the animal was shot with a shotgun. The bull required a second shot. The second bonded core bullet performed as it should mushrooming to about 60 caliber and keeping most of it's weight. Why either of those bullets blew up is still a mystery.

[ranchman]

That's interesting either way. 45-70 should damn near knock one off its feet, smash every bone in the way and still kill another one behind that if there was a couple lined up. That's a big hunk of bullet for deer.

[poppy42]

That's interesting either way. 45-70 should damn near knock one off its feet, smash every bone in the way and still kill another one behind that if there was a couple lined up. That's a big hunk of bullet for deer.

So what is your point to this. You asked a question it was answered several times and it seems you’re just looking to be argumentative. If that’s the case I’ve got other things to do and I’m sure others do also. As far as the last statement anyone that’s ever been hunting will tell you bullets don’t always do what you think they’re going to do! So I reiterate what’s your point all of us do you actually have a question? Or is this your attempt to draw people into some mine is bigger than yours contest! I’m done!

[ranchman]

So what is your point to this. You asked a question it was answered several times and it seems you’re just looking to be argumentative. If that’s the case I’ve got other things to do and I’m sure others do also. As far as the last statement anyone that’s ever been hunting will tell you bullets don’t always do what you think they’re going to do! So I reiterate what’s your point all of us do you actually have a question? Or is this your attempt to draw people into some mine is bigger than yours contest! I’m done!

I read the answers Poppy. Yours included. This is a forum, intended to make conversation on the topics at hand and that is all I was shooting to do by making thiis Thread Post. To start a conversation about what other posters do, have seen, or have experience with regarding Hardnesses, alloys and cast bullets on big-boned large game.

I don't know where in my replies you drew the conclusion I was being argumentative. I was not. As I said, it's conversation. Nothing was said bad toward you or anyone else, I think you've just misinterpreted something along the way. That's the unfortunate thing about text rather than talking in person, but is what it is.

[steve urquell]

I started casting and powder coating my own bullets a little over a year ago now. Up to that point I had a fellow nearby casting & lubing the traditional way for me (but he sold out, retired and is no more).

Long story short, the bullets I had been getting cast by him previously were a home blended alloy made up to be as near to Lyman #2 & 15BNH as a guy could get. On my hardness scale I have measured many of them to be very close to 15 as they were supposed to be, and I know I could trust their performance. By experience, those harder blended bullets worked well on both cows & bulls having heavy bones, thick skin and layered muscle to penetrate past at times. This was-too my alloy for loading ammo while carrying (revolvers) remotely where bears were a concern ... so going forward, what degree should I adjust (or not adjust) my alloy to NOW, by Powder coating vs traditional lube, that will still keep a hard, malleable enough bullet integrity to break and pass through large bones in heavy large animals?

The general consensus with powder coating is go as soft as you can, the powder coat will allow the soft alloys to shoot regardless. But in contact with big heavy bones, where is the line for hardness and alloy?? I can't see it being wise to cut the hardness by much. But lots has been argued around the powder coat acting like a jacket and that it-does allow some adjustment down in hardness. So what is the real answer(?)

What are you guys who have hunted buffalo, or bears, moose/Elk etc (using revolvers) all using for an alloy to retain bullet integrity to make sure it isn't deforming too bad, and indeed does hold its shape after breaking bones still intact enough to continue-on rather than stop or mash into a mushroom? 10-12BNH wheelweight, powder coated going to be sufficient , or is it wiser to stay 15+BNH using Lyman #2 regardless whether its powder coated? I'd love to hear some actual field evidence and comment on that if there is any on the forum.

I did some testing with the Lee 358-125rf PC cast from wheelweights loaded to 1265fps. Shot it thru 4 layers of leather welding glove followed by 5/16" of PVC with water bottles behind it. They shattered. The pic also has a Fed HST in it which buckled inward.
325125
325123
325124

[lar45]

I put down an Elk many years back with a head shot from a 350gn 45 Colt Ruger Blackhawk travelling around 1250fps. The bullet had a 90% Meplat and was cast of water dropped WW. It punches a perfect hole in the skull, then looked like gravel inside.
I have switched to a 50-50 mix of COWW and PB. I shot 2 feral hogs with a 480 Ruger 365gn HP at around 1350fps. complete penetration on the first one and stopped on the off side of the second one.

[ranchman]

Good info Steve.

And Lar45; that comment about the water dropped lead has been in the back of my head for some time. Guys I've spoken to personally have told me similar things of that nature. I shot one bull which had a broken leg a few years back with my 41, same as you say clean perfect hole in from probably 10-15 yards away and dead as a mackerel instantly, but the bullet never went anywhere after it hit the brain. The cavity didn't have the slug inside either. It disintegrated. And that was a 255gr wfn which should have stayed together and broken through the brain pan opposite the entrance pretty easily. Same bullets have on other occasions, but not that time. Was very strange.

Since I have switched to powder coating my own bullets now, I'm trying to settle on an alloy and hardness that will be ductile enough to stay together trying to eliminate as many integrity concerns as possible. I just want to read and hear of as many other opinions on what works and what doesn't on big-bones and thick heavy animals from abroad, as possible in the process. Thanks for your post.

[RickinTN]

Whatever alloy you choose it would be best to add enough tin to have a balanced alloy, equal parts tin to antimony. This will retain the malleability and hopefully keep the bullet from shattering.
Take care,
Rick

[Messy bear]

I too have seen ACWW break up on bones in deer sized critters. Softening helps keep them from shattering. Then they deform and lose penetration.
Heat treat helps if the alloy responds. Oven is better than water drop.
Probably the best is copper bearing alloy with heat treatment.

[quilbilly]

I have been doing my own alloys for many years long before wheel weights ceased to become available in my state. I have used my alloy for deer, elk, black bear, and putting down particularly unruly bison when a friend and I raised a herd. I also did a lot of terminal ballistics tests in soaked, compressed newsprint with 3/16" to 1/4" plywood 3" inside to simulate thinner bones all at 40 yards. My hunting alloy of choice has been 60% pure with 35-38% hard chilled birdshot plus a little tin. All are water dropped. Whether it was 180 gr 30 cal flat point at 1700 fps or 240 gr 429 SWC at 1500 fps, the result was similar. 20+" of penetration with a large hole in the plywood including 90-95% weight retention and expansion to almost double. I have never seen a need to invest in a hardness tester so can't tell you much about that. I have yet to find a boolit in a harvested animal. The pure lead is carefully selected at a local metal recycler (currently $1/lb) and the bird shot usually comes from the local LGS.

[Digital Dan]

.44 Mag with 300 grain pure lead paper patched, MV 1600 fps. Killed like a lightning strike, shattering every bone they touched. Neither deer or hogs took a step after being shot. Longest shot on a deer was ~80 yards. Shortest was a hog at 10 yards. Forget the paper patch if you wish, harden the alloy a bit and carry on.

My .30-30 dotes on BHN 12 lead alloy from an accuracy perspective and spits at about 2100 fps with a Lyman 311041.

[barnetmill]

I have been doing my own alloys for many years long before wheel weights ceased to become available in my state. I have used my alloy for deer, elk, black bear, and putting down particularly unruly bison when a friend and I raised a herd. I also did a lot of terminal ballistics tests in soaked, compressed newsprint with 3/16" to 1/4" plywood 3" inside to simulate thinner bones all at 40 yards. My hunting alloy of choice has been 60% pure with 35-38% hard chilled birdshot plus a little tin. All are water dropped. Whether it was 180 gr 30 cal flat point at 1700 fps or 240 gr 429 SWC at 1500 fps, the result was similar. 20+" of penetration with a large hole in the plywood including 90-95% weight retention and expansion to almost double. I have never seen a need to invest in a hardness tester so can't tell you much about that. I have yet to find a boolit in a harvested animal. The pure lead is carefully selected at a local metal recycler (currently $1/lb) and the bird shot usually comes from the local LGS.

Sort of what I was wondering. What alloys did the buffalo hunters use. I always assumed it was fairly soft lead, but of course at black powder velocities.

[Earl54]

Lately shooting a lot of pigs at close range( under 30 yards,some over 250 lbs). 18 inch 308 win,214 grain wadcutter, 1700 FPS. 50/50 clip on wheel weights, stick on wheel weights, air cooled. 115 pigs from 30 to 70 yards, only stopped 1 bullet and it was in the 2nd pig. Even corner to corner shots exit, 50/50, air cooled works for me.

[Rapier]

Our local wild hogs move around in a feeding circle about 10 -20 miles in diameter. They eat off one area until the food supply is gone then move on. At this time the larger group is on a 130 acre place two miles from our farm. Property owner came to see me about what he could do with the hogs that come to or go through his fences and harass his livestock at night. I killed them all off my place, because I finally just hunted evey last one down and killed them all, literally. So I loaned him my thermal scope and my locking tripod for rifle use, that setup has got the group thinned down by about 20 hogs. With an AR in 300 BO, which works, but is actually weak on a hog. Hogs here get to 600 lgs so, they are our version of dangerous game and big game. Our deer are mostly on the smallish side, about 100 lbs.
My preferred hog rifle is one of my two 358 MGP AR-15 guns, with 200 grain RCBS plain base flat nose 200 grain hard cast, double powder coated in five 10 round magazines. The 358 cal 200 gr at 2,500 fps, does a real job on a hog of any size. This is my hog rifle, the recoil pad is no joke, that little AR gets lively at 2,500 fps with a 200. I use my match alloy of 70-20-10% water dropped, double powdr coated, sized the the groove diameter. A custom built AR with custom built magazines that shoots sub 1/2" inch at 100.

A friend using, one of my bullets, in his DW 8" 357 Super Mag gun, shot a 400 pound wild boar south of Perry in a palmetto swamp at about 20 feet, boar had walked right up behind him, his shot went in the left shoulder, shattered the joint, six inches of the left femur, went through both lungs, cut the heart in half, and lodged under the right side plate, making a golf ball size bulge. The boar turned right and ran 30 yards before dropping.....so much for the broken shoulder stories on DG, this event was totally backwards of the stories. I was just off my friends left side within an arms length, when he fired, so saw, heard and watched the entire event.
My advice is do not rely on the broken bones theory, best to rely on the dead, shot.

[barnetmill]

Ou..............
My preferred hog rifle is one of my two 358 MGP AR-15 guns, with 200 grain RCBS plain base flat nose 200 grain hard cast, double powder coated in five 10 round magazines. The 358 cal 200 gr at 2,500 fps, does a real job on a hog of any size. This is my hog rifle, the recoil pad is no joke, that little AR gets lively at 2,500 fps with a 200. I use my match alloy of 70-20-10% water dropped, double powdr coated, sized the the groove diameter. A custom built AR with custom built magazines that shoots sub 1/2" inch at 100.

A friend using, one of my bullets, in his DW 8" 357 Super Mag gun, shot a 400 pound wild boar south of Perry in a palmetto swamp at about 20 feet, boar had walked right up behind him, his shot went in the left shoulder, shattered the joint, six inches of the left femur, went through both lungs, cut the heart in half, and lodged under the right side plate, making a golf ball size bulge. The boar turned right and ran 30 yards before dropping.....so much for the broken shoulder stories on DG, this event was totally backwards of the stories. I was just off my friends left side within an arms length, when he fired, so saw, heard and watched the entire event.
My advice is do not rely on the broken bones theory, best to rely on the dead, shot.

358 MPG sounds like an impressive cartridge in an AR-15 and firing cast coated bullets.

It is a shortened 30 remington case (6.8 is a modified 30 rem, 0.422 base.). The 35 rem runs at 34k psi. The 6.8 runs at 55k psi, and thus the
My question is if there any lead or coating plastic buildup in the gas tube or bolt carrier?

Relative to the 'DW 8" 357 Super Mag gun', sounds more in the realm of Elmer Keith revolver ballistics of a very hard bullet being used to punch deep into the vitals of a large animal.

[MT Gianni]

A friend using, one of my bullets, in his DW 8" 357 Super Mag gun, shot a 400 pound wild boar south of Perry in a palmetto swamp at about 20 feet, boar had walked right up behind him, his shot went in the left shoulder, shattered the joint, six inches of the left femur, went through both lungs, cut the heart in half, and lodged under the right side plate, making a golf ball size bulge. The boar turned right and ran 30 yards before dropping.....so much for the broken shoulder stories on DG, this event was totally backwards of the stories. I was just off my friends left side within an arms length, when he fired, so saw, heard and watched the entire event.


IME, heart shot animals do weird things. I have had whitetail run over 200 yards with their heart loose in their chests. I had an elk drop with it's heart split and another run in a 30 foot circle making several laps. One antelope dropped like a stone. I believe heart shot animal have a lot of adrenaline release and are totally unpredictable, dead but unpredictable.