Rusted Sizing Dies

[timboslice]

Hi there, new member and first time posting.

I recently came across a great deal I couldn't pass up. I got 2 older Lyman ST presses for $25 each and one came with 6 sizing dies of various calibers. Only problem is that they were kept in humid conditions and so they all have varying levels of surface rust inside and outside the dies. Are they salvageable? I would like to remove the rust with Evaporust, polish them up and sell them, but I do not want to invest the time if they are junk. I am thinking the pitting would scratch the brass and probably make it harder to insert/extract the case but I just wanted input from more experienced reloaders before I do anything with them.

Thanks!

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Hi, timboslice, WELCOME to the Castboolits Forum.

The answer to your question is that it's hard to predict if they will be useable or not after you clean them up. Possibly. Sizing is squeezing down to original specs, and if there's a pit here and there on the inside you may still be able to get the desired results if you use a good lube. After I de-rusted them I'd polish them lightly to get rid of any burrs that might exist around the pits, but you'd have to be careful not to increase the diameter of the inside of the dies, or they wouldn't size down to the proper specs anymore. You just won't know until you try, and a lot depends on just how bad they really are. If they can't be salvaged for their original purpose don't throw them away, as they can be very useful for making other tooling or even other dies.

DG

[Bazoo]

Howdy.

I'd get a bronze bore brush, chuck it in a drill, use some penetrating oil, and scrub the inside of the sizing dies to see how they clean up. If they clean up good, then it's worth it to clean up the rest of the dies (to me).

One thing to consider is, if they are pistol dies with carbide inserts, the carbide will not be affected, so once the rust is cleaned up, they will work just fine.

Another thing to consider is, caliber. If the dies are an odd or obscure caliber, they might be worth something regardless of condition, as long as they are usable. But if they are common calibers like 30-06, not so much.

Unless they are pitted on the inside, then surface rust is of no consequence other than resale value, but it DOES hurt the resale value. A complete die set, lets say 30-06, in good condition, will probably bring about $30 plus shipping. A rusty but usable set will probably bring $15 at the most. If they are a set of older 50-110 Winchester dies, they will bring $200+ in great condition, and $100 in usable condition. So caliber and condition makes a lot of difference.

You could sell them all as a lot as is, and someone who likes tinkering on reloading stuff would buy them. I have bought similar lots of stuff to get just 1 or 2 pieces, or just for the fun of messing with it.

[Shawlerbrook]

Great advice above. They might be salvageable, but you said “pitting” and if they are pitted I would guess they are beyond repair. Just surface rust would probably be repairable.

[country gent]

A lot depends on how involved you want to get. evaporust may help but it may change surface finish. A clean and light polish will tell show a lot. A bore scope would be handy to see inside better. Even dies that arnt usable may be able to be made into other dies or tooling, saving drilling threading knurling.

If available run them thru a ultra sonic cleaner see what you really have inside. Working thru then a light polish with either a brush or mandrel and flannel patch and some very fine compound like flitz shimichrome or red rouge. This will sometimes break the edges on pitting and bring them back. But selling dies with visible flaws will be hard. One thing Ive seen done is a sized case in with them to show they work. Carbide dies are more resistant to rust and damage in some ways. But if to much material is removed behind the ring the sharp edge there may marr brass on the way back out.

Rifle dies with damage in the body area can be polished to make neck size dies, if the necks are good.

Its going to take a good inspection to start with to get an idea what can be done.

[timboslice]

I have seen folks that indicate that Evaporust will change the finish but it didn't seem to be a huge issue to most people. The other route would be to boil the dies (I do not have access to an ultrasonic cleaner), but from the others in this thread, it seems like a scrubbing the rust out using some penetrating oil or, like you said, using some compound would be the best way to go. I will need to take them apart and get a better idea to how extensive the rust is. Thanks for the input!

[timboslice]

Howdy.

I'd get a bronze bore brush, chuck it in a drill, use some penetrating oil, and scrub the inside of the sizing dies to see how they clean up. If they clean up good, then it's worth it to clean up the rest of the dies (to me).

One thing to consider is, if they are pistol dies with carbide inserts, the carbide will not be affected, so once the rust is cleaned up, they will work just fine.

Another thing to consider is, caliber. If the dies are an odd or obscure caliber, they might be worth something regardless of condition, as long as they are usable. But if they are common calibers like 30-06, not so much.

Unless they are pitted on the inside, then surface rust is of no consequence other than resale value, but it DOES hurt the resale value. A complete die set, lets say 30-06, in good condition, will probably bring about $30 plus shipping. A rusty but usable set will probably bring $15 at the most. If they are a set of older 50-110 Winchester dies, they will bring $200+ in great condition, and $100 in usable condition. So caliber and condition makes a lot of difference.

You could sell them all as a lot as is, and someone who likes tinkering on reloading stuff would buy them. I have bought similar lots of stuff to get just 1 or 2 pieces, or just for the fun of messing with it.

----
That is great news about the carbide! I am assuming that they are only carbide if it is indicated on the die? Otherwise, I don't mind messing around with them since I am so new to reloading. It wouldn't be the worst thing for me to take them apart to see how they function.

I have a full die set of .45 long colt (RCBS), all of which have a fair amount of rust.
A Lyman .38/.357 mag Carbide sizing die
Herter's .30-30 sizing die
RCBS .270 Rem sizing, .25-20 sizing, .22 hornet sizing FL W (not sure what W stands for), and finally a .32-20 sizing die.

The RCBS, excluding the .45 long colt, are in pretty decent shape, but all have some degree of surface rust. After looking at them again, I don't think it will be too much of an issue getting the rust out. I think I will go ahead and get some bronze bore brushes and lightly run them through!

[timboslice]

Great advice above. They might be salvageable, but you said “pitting” and if they are pitted I would guess they are beyond repair. Just surface rust would probably be repairable.

After taking a more in depth look, it seems there is only surface rust on the inside of the dies. That said, the outside of some of the dies definitely have pitting. I may need to take some kind of penetrant and scrub them to make them shiny. I have also heard that running them through tumbler is also an option.

[nicholst55]

My experience is to NOT leave parts in Evapo-Rust as long as they say to. If you leave bright steel parts in there overnight (like they recommend), they turn black. That makes them highly undesirable to most people. I have personally had absolutely no luck trying to sell restored dies that had been rusty. In fact, I recently threw away several sets of previously slightly rusty dies because nobody wanted them.

[timboslice]

My experience is to NOT leave parts in Evapo-Rust as long as they say to. If you leave bright steel parts in there overnight (like they recommend), they turn black. That makes them highly undesirable to most people. I have personally had absolutely no luck trying to sell restored dies that had been rusty. In fact, I recently threw away several sets of previously slightly rusty dies because nobody wanted them.

Good to know. I have a few obscure calibers but I may end up just hanging on to them to see if I can clean them up. If you don't mind my asking, how have you cleaned your dies? I have seen many different options but I think using Bazoo's method would be the best way to go. Just trying to get as much info about the subject since I am very new to reloading.

[country gent]

Tumbling will do a lot with little attention. Corn Cobs some mineral spirits to start and maybe a cap full or 2 of new finish wax. You may not be able to run to many at a time in a vibratory as weight will slow it down. A tumbler may work better but load it full so dies are cushioned some from banging into each other. We polished stampings at work and some machined parts in tumblers with corn cob and a light oil. On smaller dies the corn cob packing in may be a problem.

Boiling will be a hot blue conversion turning the rust blue black.

Pickling may be an option a soak in white vinegar mixed 50-50 with hydrogen peroxide may do a decent job.

[timboslice]

Tumbling will do a lot with little attention. Corn Cobs some mineral spirits to start and maybe a cap full or 2 of new finish wax. You may not be able to run to many at a time in a vibratory as weight will slow it down. A tumbler may work better but load it full so dies are cushioned some from banging into each other. We polished stampings at work and some machined parts in tumblers with corn cob and a light oil. On smaller dies the corn cob packing in may be a problem.

Boiling will be a hot blue conversion turning the rust blue black.

Pickling may be an option a soak in white vinegar mixed 50-50 with hydrogen peroxide may do a decent job.

Exactly the kind of info I was looking for. Thank you!!

[Bazoo]

I don't know that all dies that are carbide are marked carbide. They made steel dies for pistol calibers for a long time before carbide dies came into prevalence in the 1980s, and carbide dies were marked then... but now, I would think they all wouldn't be since it's the norm.

No bottlenecked calibers/rifle calibers are carbide.

If you have a non carbide set of 45 colt for example, it still has value as some people prefer regular steel dies for their sixgun calibers. I have a 44 Special steel die to accompany my carbide sizer for some possible projects I have in the future, for example.

[MrWolf]

A lot depends on how involved you want to get. evaporust may help but it may change surface finish. A clean and light polish will tell show a lot. A bore scope would be handy to see inside better. Even dies that arnt usable may be able to be made into other dies or tooling, saving drilling threading knurling.

If available run them thru a ultra sonic cleaner see what you really have inside. Working thru then a light polish with either a brush or mandrel and flannel patch and some very fine compound like flitz shimichrome or red rouge. This will sometimes break the edges on pitting and bring them back. But selling dies with visible flaws will be hard. One thing Ive seen done is a sized case in with them to show they work. Carbide dies are more resistant to rust and damage in some ways. But if to much material is removed behind the ring the sharp edge there may marr brass on the way back out.

Rifle dies with damage in the body area can be polished to make neck size dies, if the necks are good.

Its going to take a good inspection to start with to get an idea what can be done.

Good to know. Guess I may be trying some of that with my mini lathe once this surgery heals and hopefully provides the relief I need.

[jetinteriorguy]

Add a pretty fair amount of powdered citric acid to water, drop them in and literally watch the rust come off. I’d say 3-4 tablespoons to a quart of water would work for a sizing die. I’d guess it would be shiny clean in an hour or two. You can find it in most canning sections at Walmart or any store that handles canning supplies.

[snowwolfe]

I often wondered if a tumbler with stainless steel pins would clean the inside and outside of reloading dies. I would try it, nothing to lose.

[timboslice]

Add a pretty fair amount of powdered citric acid to water, drop them in and literally watch the rust come off. I’d say 3-4 tablespoons to a quart of water would work for a sizing die. I’d guess it would be shiny clean in an hour or two. You can find it in most canning sections at Walmart or any store that handles canning supplies.

That's a good suggestion. I will give that a shot!

Edit: I did this a few nights ago to some test dies that I don't mind losing and it worked pretty well! I probably added about 5 table spoons of citric acid to about 3 or 4 cups of water. After letting the pieces sit for several minutes, I took a bronze brush to each part and the rust came right off. Used a bronze brush for the inside of the die. Afterwards, I rinsed them thoroughly, dipped them in IPA for faster drying and coated them in oil. I will be repeating this for the other caliber dies.

[Moleman-]

Every time I've used evaporust it has etched the steel slightly which would be the end of a reloading die. The die bodies are hardened steel. Wire brush the outside and use a 3m pad on the inside. Don't have a good pic of the dies before hand but these die bodies were as rusty as the blued parts. Wire brushed the die bodies, wiped out the ID with a 3m pad, boiled the blued parts and carded them.

[nicholst55]

I often wondered if a tumbler with stainless steel pins would clean the inside and outside of reloading dies. I would try it, nothing to lose.

It beats up the external threads - probably not enough to actually hurt anything, but close inspection makes it very evident.

[country gent]

A small plastic jar with 1 die in it and media in the media of the polisher you can run 3-5 dies at a time with out them banging into each other. The vibration will transfer thru the jar and allow each die to clean polish but be away from the others. In a ultra sonic it takes much less cleaner doing this and running water in the unit.

[rbuck351]

I wouldn't spend the time on rusted dies to try to sell. If I needed the dies for my own use I would use some very fine polishing compound on cloth on a dowel and spin with a drill motor for the inside. The outside I wouldn't do much with other than use a wire wheel to clean the threads enough to allow them to be used.

[Bazoo]

Wire wheel on the outside does work well. The ones I've done that were very rusty all have had discoloration left where the rust was. I don't that there is any way to remove the discoloration.

[thump_rrr]

Use Boeshield T9 with a phosphor bronze utility brush and some Scotchbrite.
Make sure it’s a real phosphor bronze utility brush and not a steel brush with bronze plating.
Boeshield is often used to protect the tops of table saws when not in use.
They also have a product called Rust Free to remove rust.
I’ve always used the T-9 itself and not the rust free but I’ll pick some up to try next time.

[Jeff Michel]

Add a pretty fair amount of powdered citric acid to water, drop them in and literally watch the rust come off. I’d say 3-4 tablespoons to a quart of water would work for a sizing die. I’d guess it would be shiny clean in an hour or two. You can find it in most canning sections at Walmart or any store that handles canning supplies.

This would be Lemi-shine.

[jetinteriorguy]

This would be Lemi-shine.

Nope, lemishine is used to enhance cleaning products. The citric acid in the canning section is pure citric acid.

[sureYnot]

Nope, lemishine is used to enhance cleaning products. The citric acid in the canning section is pure citric acid.https://lemishine.com/pages/downloads
MSDS for lemishine.

[timboslice]

I wouldn't spend the time on rusted dies to try to sell. If I needed the dies for my own use I would use some very fine polishing compound on cloth on a dowel and spin with a drill motor for the inside. The outside I wouldn't do much with other than use a wire wheel to clean the threads enough to allow them to be used.

Well, figured it wouldn't hurt to give it a shot. There are plenty of people out there that love giving old items new life. I certainly don't have the know-how or the tools necessary to make other tooling out the dies, but maybe someone that's willing to pay 30 bucks for a handful of dies might be able to do something useful with them.

[rbuck351]

If I decided to sell them I would list them as is and let the buyer decide how they wanted to clean them.

[timboslice]

If I decided to sell them I would list them as is and let the buyer decide how they wanted to clean them.

That's reasonable and there's a lot of wisdom in that. But there's a certain level of satisfaction that comes from learning to clean them up. I don't have to sell them, so this is more like a grand experiment in my mind. If they all get mucked up then it's no big deal.

[Bazoo]

I enjoy tinkering on things like that too, I also enjoy learning something new, so I can't blame you for undertaking a bit of a cleaning endeavor.

[Wayne Smith]

https://lemishine.com/pages/downloads
MSDS for lemishine.

Lemishine sure has a lot of products. I'd stick with the canning product or, like I did, get it off Amazon.com.

[rbuck351]

Yeah, I too enjoy fixing broken/damaged things. I buy a lot of stuff that needs fixing if it's cheap but I would rather it hadn't been messed with before I get my hands on it.

[timboslice]

Yeah, I too enjoy fixing broken/damaged things. I buy a lot of stuff that needs fixing if it's cheap but I would rather it hadn't been messed with before I get my hands on it.

Yeah that's fair. I have some calibers I will never really mess with so I may end up leaving them alone and seeing if I can fix up the others. To be determined.

[farmbif]

I got a bunch of brass tube brushes from justman brush company they have lots of perfect sizes for dies and several different options as far as handle and thickness of bristles. some have loop at end of handle for use by hand and others have straight shaft that can be used in a cordless drill dipped in kroil removes rust quick and easy

[timboslice]

I got a bunch of brass tube brushes from justman brush company they have lots of perfect sizes for dies and several different options as far as handle and thickness of bristles. some have loop at end of handle for use by hand and others have straight shaft that can be used in a cordless drill dipped in kroil removes rust quick and easy

I have an old gun smith friend who is now out of the business but has a TON of brass brushes that are actually perfect for this application. Just gotta get some from him. I've heard kroil is a good one to use from several folks. Might give that a shot for my next round of experiments.

[country gent]

Use a few of the ones youll never use to practice on before going to the ones you want

[imashooter2]

Electrolytic rust removal is great for precision parts. It cannot remove metal, only the rust.

http://schoepp.hylands.net/electrolyticrust.html

A quick and easy set up I have used several times:

http://imashooter2.com/pictures/ERR-out.jpg

http://imashooter2.com/pictures/ERR-in.jpg

Results:

http://imashooter2.com/pictures/rustydies-600.jpghttp://imashooter2.com/pictures/cleandies-600.jpg

[Rickf1985]

Evaporust is a Chelating process and I am pretty sure it cannot harm solid metal. I have had very good results with Evaporust on rusted old tools and threading dies. It did not harm the threads in the threading dies at all after 24 hours in the Evaporust.
I left a small wrench in vinegar for a couple of days and it ate most of the wrench!!!!

"Chelating agents will not harm the base metal but may not be as fast or thorough enough. A good middle ground is a phosphoric acid-based product that properly designed will provide quick dissolving of the rust with no risk of base metal damage. (c) Copyright 2023 DTN, LLC."

[ebb]

Glass bead blast to remove rust, oil immediately. Back in my archery days someone took the wheels bushings and axels from a compound bow and simmered them in a can with Slick 50 for several hours. The bow was reassembled and set up identical to how it was before. Shots before and after showed 6 to 7 FPS faster after slick 50. I would love to try this with reloading dies to see if they worked smoother with less force to size brass.

[Bazoo]

Glass bead blast to remove rust, oil immediately. Back in my archery days someone took the wheels bushings and axels from a compound bow and simmered them in a can with Slick 50 for several hours. The bow was reassembled and set up identical to how it was before. Shots before and after showed 6 to 7 FPS faster after slick 50. I would love to try this with reloading dies to see if they worked smoother with less force to size brass.

That's pretty interesting, thank you for sharing.

[abunaitoo]

I had some rusty dies and just "to see" I put them in the wet tumbler, with stainless pins and bits.
A dab of car wash soap, and ran it for a couple of hours.
They came out great.

[farmbif]

Electrolytic rust removal is great for precision parts. It cannot remove metal, only the rust.

http://schoepp.hylands.net/electrolyticrust.html

A quick and easy set up I have used several times:

http://imashooter2.com/pictures/ERR-out.jpg

http://imashooter2.com/pictures/ERR-in.jpg

Results:

http://imashooter2.com/pictures/rustydies-600.jpghttp://imashooter2.com/pictures/cleandies-600.jpg

what kind of "washing soda" do you use? ive looked in a whole bunch of stores looking for it and it seems to be coming of days gone by.
I would like to try this on some old tools, dies and other things like an old Lyman trimmer that almost went in the trash can at least twice

[ebb]

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?83572-Citric-acid-brass-cleaner&highlight=citric+acid+brass+cleaning They guy in Canada says to substitute the citric acid for the Lemi shine as it is much cheaper.

[imashooter2]

what kind of "washing soda" do you use? ive looked in a whole bunch of stores looking for it and it seems to be coming of days gone by.
I would like to try this on some old tools, dies and other things like an old Lyman trimmer that almost went in the trash can at least twice

Any brand sodium carbonate will do. It is sold as pH booster for pools and hot tubs as well as washing soda. I have a box of Arm and Hammer brand because that is what our market had. Sodium bicarbonate (baking soda) will also work in a pinch.

[45_Colt]

what kind of "washing soda" do you use? ive looked in a whole bunch of stores looking for it and it seems to be coming of days gone by.
I would like to try this on some old tools, dies and other things like an old Lyman trimmer that almost went in the trash can at least twice

Can 'make it' by heating baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) in the oven at 400°F or so. Takes a few hours. Can tell it is done when the powder is no longer thick and heavy, but light and fluffy. Best to use a glass or stainless steel bowel or dish.

All that is being done is driving off the extra CO2 molecule that was added to make washing soda (sodium carbonate) into baking soda.

And the electrolytic de-rusting does work a treat. Just need an old school battery charger, as some of the newer ones (Battery Tender) need to see some battery voltage in order to go into charge mode.

45_Colt

[Rickf1985]

Glass bead blast to remove rust, oil immediately. Back in my archery days someone took the wheels bushings and axels from a compound bow and simmered them in a can with Slick 50 for several hours. The bow was reassembled and set up identical to how it was before. Shots before and after showed 6 to 7 FPS faster after slick 50. I would love to try this with reloading dies to see if they worked smoother with less force to size brass.

Slick 50! There is a name I have not heard for a long time. I remember putting that in a racing engine for dirt track racing to see if it helped. I didn't see any difference in my times but I did win that night. Drained it out after that race and never tried it again.

I googled Slick 50 to see if it was still out there and found something interesting. They have a product by Slick 50 called One lube, What are the odds it is related to the Hornady One Shot?

[farmbif]

isn't slick 50 the stuff they would demonstrate a fairs and racing events where they had a briggs and Stratton motor with a clear plastic back and mopar slant 6 engine they would run them with no oil in it just a coating of the stuff? would be interesting to see how it works coating reloading gear.

[ebb]

My friend asked the FAA about using it in a crop duster, they told him it works to try it. He changed the oil and added slick 50 and the mechanic had to slow down the idle speed after the oil change said it was over 100 rpm higher than without. The have a new product that sounds too good to be true, they claim it fixes everything. But the old oil conditioner seems hard to find and very expensive.