Problem with a 357 Max load

[catmandu]

I mostly shoot Cast Boolits.
I decided to load up some deer hunting loads with jacketed.
I was able to pick up some Hornady 35 Cal 200 gr FTX bullets. I figured the better BC of the FTX bullets would be a good choice.
I researched a good load and found 3-4 suggestions to use AA1680 powder. I then found a suggestion on the Bellem forum that
28.5 gr of AA1680 was the go to load with the 357 Maximum.
I picked up some AA1680 and weighed out some charges. That was when I realized that the case fill on this load was really high.
I went to Accurate Arms site and entered the data and printed out their load suggestion for the 357 Max with this powder and bullet.
They listed 27 Min to 30 gr Max load.

This doesn't come close to fitting into this case. I know some powders can be compacted, or use of a long drop tube must be used.
This does not appear to work in this case. I am using new brass, I have weighed the charges several times and re tare and check of the scale.

Has anybody else experienced this issue with AA1680?

Thanks in advance.

Paul in MS

[cwtebay]

I mostly shoot Cast Boolits.
I decided to load up some deer hunting loads with jacketed.
I was able to pick up some Hornady 35 Cal 200 gr FTX bullets. I figured the better BC of the FTX bullets would be a good choice.
I researched a good load and found 3-4 suggestions to use AA1680 powder. I then found a suggestion on the Bellem forum that
28.5 gr of AA1680 was the go to load with the 357 Maximum.
I picked up some AA1680 and weighed out some charges. That was when I realized that the case fill on this load was really high.
I went to Accurate Arms site and entered the data and printed out their load suggestion for the 357 Max with this powder and bullet.
They listed 27 Min to 30 gr Max load.

This doesn't come close to fitting into this case. I know some powders can be compacted, or use of a long drop tube must be used.
This does not appear to work in this case. I am using new brass, I have weighed the charges several times and re tare and check of the scale.

Has anybody else experienced this issue with AA1680?

Thanks in advance.

Paul in MSThat seems a bit high. Load Data suggests this load. This data is from a 44 1/2 rifle - not a pistol. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240322/9bf3b971a36a49a21e9e7ba83e4ee251.jpg

[rkrcpa]

Some good info here: http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_357Max.pdf

[catmandu]

Here is what I have.
324825

EDIT: I was wrong - this data was from the Shooters Reference Site

https://www.shootersreference.com/reloadingdata/357-maximum/#

[catmandu]

Sorry, it blurs when you downgrade so it can be posted to the Cast Boolits forum.

Just to be clear, no loads have been fired with this loading. If I can’t find several load data recommendations from qualified sources I don’t load them.

[racepres]

FWIW
the number one Accurate Loading Guide (printed) using a 14" Douglass barrel lists
180gr SSP OAL 2.190" Starts at 19.4g to Max of 26.6
200gr TMJ OAL 1.990" Starts at 19.4 to Max of 21.5
Can't imagine 1680 has changed That much since Introduced...If it has...I did Not notice..Tho, I hardly Ever exceed Max for Most Ctgs...

[NSB]

I’ve been loading and shooting several different .357max rifles for several years now. I have a LOT of data using different powders and bullets. I’m sitting on several pounds of 1680 powder right now, and a few pounds of 5744. I’ve tried every bullet weight out there, and have settled on 180g bullets that get me the accuracy I’m looking for. I’ve found that I can get very good accuracy with Reloader 7 also, but at the expense of muzzle velocity. Viht 110 and 120 also give great accuracy, but also at the expense of velocity. All in all, I’ve settled on 5744 and Hornady 180g XTP’s as my “go to” deer load. I’ve used Speer 180g #3345 bullets and Viht 110 and shot and killed deer out to a measured 200 yards, but I’ve found the Hornady 180g XTP to perform better at those distances. You don’t need a 200g bullet with this cartridge, the 180g performs better. With either 1680 or 5744, I can get five shot groups averaging 1.4-1.5” off the bench at 100 yards. Right now my current favorite gun is a TC Encore with a custom 16.25” heavy SSK 1:16 twist with a muzzle brake. Are you shooting a handgun or a rifle?
https://www.shootersreference.com/reloadingdata/357-maximum/#
Data is hard to find for this cartridge. Send my a PM if you want more info.

[catmandu]

Thank you for those replies. I will pick up some 180’s and use those 200’s in the 358 Win.
I have both, a H&R Handi and a Bullberry Encore pistol barrel.
Paul

[P Flados]

I have shot a lot of Wc 680 (milsurp version of 1680) in the Max. When I tried more than say 105% fill, the effort required to compress the powder was just too high.

I am not sure if case capacity differences and/or powder density differences are to blame. I have noted a number of published loads seem to call for way more 1680 than I could use with my components.

I general, I find 100% to 102% fill with my Wc 680 seems to work pretty good regardless of bullet or seating depth.

My favorite load is 24.1 gr under a 180 seated 0.329" deep for 100% fill. I have run it a little hotter (102% fill) at times, but do not really see a need for regular IHMSA loads.

For the Encore or a SB2 Handi, loads way over the 40,000 psi rating for the 357 Max would be fine. If you have a SB-1, I recommend staying under the rating.

[catmandu]

Thanks again for all the replies. I have an SB2 frame. I will pick up some XTP 180's and follow the good advise. The 358 Win won't mind shooting some of the 200 FTX bullets, 230s is what it usually gets so some lighter loads will be fun.

Thanks again.
Paul

[blackpowder man]

I have an Encore with an 18” ssk max on it and I get more like 2-2.5” groups at 100 yards. It likes the Lee clone of the 200 grain RCBS and an old Ideal 250 grain round nose with either RL7 or WW296 pretty good. When it comes to jacketed, like others have said, the 180s do better. I like the Speer and get over 2K fps with 296.

[NSB]

I have an Encore with an 18” ssk max on it and I get more like 2-2.5” groups at 100 yards. It likes the Lee clone of the 200 grain RCBS and an old Ideal 250 grain round nose with either RL7 or WW296 pretty good. When it comes to jacketed, like others have said, the 180s do better. I like the Speer and get over 2K fps with 296.
My first SSK barrel didn’t shoot as well as I’d hoped it would. I contacted SSK about it and was told that the barrel I had was sold as an SSK Hunter barrel. Those barrels were actually made by Green Mountain and were “hit or miss” regarding accuracy (pardon the pun, but those were the words used). I ended up sending it back along with a few hundred dollars more and got a premium barrel made by SSK and it shoots groups that average around 1.4” for five shots. Some are five shots all touching and they measure around 1” which I consider pretty good for a 16.25” bbl with a break on it shooting a pistol bullet at around 1,900 fps. If you’re getting 2-2.5” five shot groups with cast bullets you’re doing pretty good. Mine are shot with Hornady 180g XTPs and using both 1680 and 5744, with the nod going to 5744 by a very small amount.

[poppy42]

I have a 18” barrel on my NEF 358 max.I load 26.5 grns loads of 1680 behind a Lee 200 grn RCBS clone 2 -2 1/2” at 100 yards. Or 27.5 behind a Hornaday 180 grn xtp same accuracy. Unfortunately 1680 has become unobtainable to me locally. I plan on using H110/Win 296(same exact powder) or as a last resort imr4227

[NSB]

I have a 18” barrel on my NEF 358 max.I load 26.5 grns loads of 1680 behind a Lee 200 grn RCBS clone 2 -2 1/2” at 100 yards. Or 27.5 behind a Hornaday 180 grn xtp same accuracy. Unfortunately 1680 has become unobtainable to me locally. I plan on using H110/Win 296(same exact powder) or as a last resort imr4227

I’ve tried every powder you can think of. If you can get some 5744 give it a try. WW296 works “ok” but has never been as good as 1680 or 5744.

[cwlongshot]

1680 and the 180 ssp has be THE powder for the Maxi for many people for decades. Myself included. So many folks wouldn't love it if it didnt work so well in most rifles.

Do a little reading over on Graybeards in the H&R section.

CW

[MarkP]

The Hornady 180 gr SSPB have a smaller bearing surface compared to the 180 gr XTP and the heal to cannelure distance is shorter as well thus not taking up case volume as compared to the XTP. I will post a picture when I am at my PC. The Early 1990's (I think 1992-93) Hornady manual has a max charge of AA1680 listed at 25.3 gr

325002

[NSB]

If you’re loading them in a single shot you don’t have to worry about the cannelure.

[NSB]

1680 and the 180 ssp has be THE powder for the Maxi for many people for decades. Myself included. So many folks wouldn't love it if it didnt work so well in most rifles.

Do a little reading over on Graybeards in the H&R section.

CW

Depending on YOUR gun, you may find one bullet/powder combination will shoot better than another. This accomplished by loading and shooting to make a valid comparison. Don’t ever think that any one powder/bullet combination is THE right one for your gun until you try it and compare it to other loads. There’s no one load that’s best in every gun.

[cwlongshot]

Depending on YOUR gun, you may find one bullet/powder combination will shoot better than another. This accomplished by loading and shooting to make a valid comparison. Don’t ever think that any one powder/bullet combination is THE right one for your gun until you try it and compare it to other loads. There’s no one load that’s best in every gun.


I never said it would my friend. RE-Read my post...

I said MANY... Many is not all, but its enough to make it a worth while "try". After all, YOU are the one with the issue and the post was an attempt, to assist that request. So check the attitude. If ya dont like the answer its worth what ya paid for it and move on. Maybe not burn bridges if ya gonna ask for help huh?

CW.

[justindad]

I have experienced this with Ramshot’s Enforcer in .357 Sig. The Lyman load data was very compressed at the start and the max load absolutely would not fit. I did get to max book velocity, but just at a lower charge. So long as AA1680 does not require a very high compression in order to be safe (which seems ridiculous), you’re probably safe using a starting load of 95% case fill
*
Western Handloading Manual #1 gives a starting charge of 20.9 grains of AA1680 using a 200 grain lead bullet in .357 Rem Max.

[NSB]

I never said it would my friend. RE-Read my post...

I said MANY... Many is not all, but its enough to make it a worth while "try". After all, YOU are the one with the issue and the post was an attempt, to assist that request. So check the attitude. If ya dont like the answer its worth what ya paid for it and move on. Maybe not burn bridges if ya gonna ask for help huh?

CW.

I read it again. I got it right. Post #15, right? You were pretty specific.

[cwlongshot]

1680 and the 180 ssp has be THE powder for the Maxi for many people for decades. Myself included. So many folks wouldn't love it, if it didnt work so well in most rifles.

Do a little reading over on Graybeards in the H&R section.

CW

As mentioned "most"& "most" is not all.

I fully realize and often explain to others, that rifles even with consecutive sn, can and likely are, 180° opposite in there likes and dislikes.

BUT, often you will see powders DIRECTLY associated with a given Cartritage.

Have you seen H380? Do you know how it acquired its name? Well its from its use with 22/250. "38" is the preferred charge.

How about IMR 4350 and the 30/06, or H4831 and the 270?
Maybe h4350 and the 6.5 Creed?

If you have been around and read just a little you have seen these powders recommended for these calibers.

Again, this is a open forum. You requested comments by your post or outright question. Your not lilely to receive answers you expect but all too often thats the irony cause occasionally your looking 180° in wrong direction and just needed a lil nudge to consider anothers opinion and experience.
CW