Martini Cadet

[03car31]

I have a BSA Cadet that was changed to 32-20 before I got it. I would like to have it changed to 38 special but kept looking original externally.

I have tried contacting gunsmiths both locally and online, but have not had luck finding someone that will do the job. Does anyone here know of a gunsmith that will line the barrel and rechambered to 38 as well as bushing the firing pin?

Thanks.

[Outpost75]

John Taylor did mine.

[challenger_i]

Welcome to the Martin Club! I warn you: they are addictive! :)

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Welcome to the Castboolits Forum, 03car31. I used to have what you've got (MH Cadet in .32-20) and found it to be highly inaccurate shooting factory loads. Turned out that the factory bullets were about .30" diameter and the bore about .32" diameter. I started loading cast .32 Cal. wadcutters and it became a tack driver. It was really simple, just re-prime, add powder, stick the wadcutter part way into the case, turn the case upside down and press the bullet against the workbench top until it sat flush in the case. Never needed to resize at all. Stupidly, I got bored with it and sold it off, a major mistake. Anyway, re-chambering to .38 Special is an idea, but if I had mine back I'd leave it as-is. You're wanting to go from a .32" bore to a .357" bore, plus the thickness of the liner, so if you go that route it might be more practical to re-barrel which will ruin the remaining authenticity. I'd leave it alone and load for it in .32-20, a great little cartridge.

DG

[03car31]

I may have to try that.

[Nobade]

I wonder if JES could rebore it?
http://www.35caliber.com/index.html

[marlinman93]

I wonder if JES could rebore it?
http://www.35caliber.com/index.html

No, his site states they don't bore anything smaller than .338 caliber.

[john.k]

Just rebore it ....no need to bush the firing pin for 38special

[Bwana John]

If your Cadet has been rechambered to 32-20 the best way to get it to shoot well is use 32-20 brass and .310 Cadet heeled bullets.
RCBS makes a .310 Cadet heeled bullet mold
OR
Just buy them from Bear Creek http://https://www.bearcreeksupplybullets.com/310cadet-heeledbullet

[Bigslug]

Hoping the photos actually attach. . .

I'd have to make a trip to where the press lives to remind myself what I actually did for flaring of brass the first time it's loaded. . .

But the short version is you won't have much luck getting accuracy with "true" .32-20 ammo. Mine has a .3185 groove diameter, and the custom bullet shown (hopefully - Accurate 32-155D, at any rate) is a tumble-luber that I spec'd to drop at .321" as I recall. Unaltered .312" bullets in standard .32-20 will just rattle down the bore and tumble. But the rifle and ammo as shown hover around the 2-2.5MOA mark.

If it didn't shoot so well, I'd have gone the .357 Mag route myself. John Taylor would be the guy for it though.

324391

[challenger_i]

Having owned 5 Cadets that had been "rechambered" to 32-20 Winchester, I have had mixed luck. One shot like a house a'fire, cast or jacketed. Another wouldn't find the paper with cast but would shoot accurately with jacketed. Another would shoot decently, but would blow the case out straight each firing.
What I did for the third rifle was slug the bore (.318", like Bigslug found). I use the RCBS mold for the 8mm Nambu (110gr) and run it through a custom Lee push-thru die to size to .319". I found that by trimming the case a tad (if you follow this method you should do a chamber cast to see your true case length, but you can do the "cut and try method) and use a 30 Carbine die set to load. With this set up, the rifle behaves herself very admirably. I use it for our annual turkey shoot and always bring home a prize.
Note: If One desires to make ammo, but is put off by the scarcity of 32-20 brass, 7.62x38 Nagant brass will work.
As for the .38 route, I have one that was "converted" when imported in the 1950's to 357 Mag. All the smith did was rebore and re-rifle. It shoots .38 Special very sweetly, but .357 Mag at "normal" loads is a bit sticky on extraction.

My "318 Cadet" round:

324392

[JDHasty]

No, his site states they don't bore anything smaller than .338 caliber.

You might be surprised, but Jesse actually does do a few that aren’t advertised. Super, super nice guy. A mountain of a man who does outstanding work.

[JDHasty]

Welcome to the Martin Club! I warn you: they are addictive! :)

I’ve finally got a line on an action. Been wanting one for thirty five years. I have a buddy in California who is addicted to them.

[john.k]

Prices on Cadets have hit bottom here ...see lots for $250 A ....thats about US$180

[challenger_i]

John, if you run across the trigger group that has the cross-bolt safety, do send me one! :)

[Nobade]

No, his site states they don't bore anything smaller than .338 caliber.

But I thought 38 special was bigger than .338. He does say he can do it on his web site.

[Wilderness]

Another option is the .32-40. Bore is right, cases made from .30-30s, and the tapered case ejects without issue. Need to keep to the light bullets though for the 1:20 twist, e.g. #32359.

[challenger_i]

Wilderness, you are evil! I just happen to have a set of 32-40 dies, a 120gr .321 mold and a batch of orphan 375 Win brass!
Properly loaded, a 32-40 Cadet will not bite like a 32 Winchester Special does.

[Shawlerbrook]

Definitely talk to Jesse.

[schutzen-jager]

.38 should be no problem - back in the 60's several importers were converting them to 32/20 + .357 mag. for resale -

[03car31]

I have had this cadet for a couple of years. I have tried several of the 32-20 loads and it will shoot them, although not overly accurately.

I sent a PM over to John Taylor and will send it to him for 38 special setup. For some reason I am very fond of 38 special and think that would be a fun plinker.

My 22lr BSA 12/15 should be delivered on Thursday. I am really looking forward to that one.

[challenger_i]

38 Special is a good round for the Cadet. Staying with standard (as opposed to +P or Hotrod) loads, the original sights work very well. Makes for a fun, easy to feed rifle.

[old turtle]

You made a good choice in John Taylor. He relined a 32-40 for me. His work is excellent.

[John Taylor]

I picked up a Cadet action and wood several years ago and went the other way, it's now a 32 S&W with an octagon barrel. It's almost like shooting a 22 LR with a little more knock down power.

[Rapier]

The 357 Mag would be a better choice as it is more versatile, shoot the 38 Spl and 357 Mag both. Just re-barrel, because the chamber cut ruined the authenticity to start with.
You can cut a cup in the bolt face, with a flat end mill bit, and reduce the firing pin diameter for protrusion at the pin nose, stopping the forward travel of the firing pin on the rear of the bolt as normal, not usin the busing as the pin forward travel stop The fired case thrust is to the rear of the bushing, so using black Locktight at 6k shear strength is totally sufficient to hold the faced off bushing in pace, when the busing is bottomed out in the cup. All the bushing does is center the reduced nose of the firing pin. A simple description of how I do my high pressure pin and bolt modification, like for the 357 Super Mag/225 WM conversions.
A few I have redone, leaving a 6" straight .900 in th chamber area to mount 541 scope bases too and the forend too. The forends are glass bedded and the two forend escutcheons are made from cartridge bases cut, drilled and glass bedded. I replace the coil springs with new, cut to proper length.

[M-Tecs]

The 357 Mag would be a better choice as it is more versatile, shoot the 38 Spl and 357 Mag both. Just re-barrel, because the chamber cut ruined the authenticity to start with.
You can cut a cup in the bolt face, with a flat end mill bit, and reduce the firing pin diameter for protrusion at the pin nose, stopping the forward travel of the firing pin on the rear of the bolt as normal, not usin the busing as the pin forward travel stop The fired case thrust is to the rear of the bushing, so using black Locktight at 6k shear strength is totally sufficient to hold the faced off bushing in pace, when the busing is bottomed out in the cup. All the bushing does is center the reduced nose of the firing pin. A simple description of how I do my high pressure pin and bolt modification, like for the 357 Super Mag/225 WM conversions.
A few I have redone, leaving a 6" straight .900 in th chamber area to mount 541 scope bases too and the forend too. The forends are glass bedded and the two forend escutcheons are made from cartridge bases cut, drilled and glass bedded. I replace the coil springs with new, cut to proper length.

Very nice. Thanks for posting.

[challenger_i]

I just want to take this opportunity to say that you are ALL evil! This thread is tweeking my "Build Gene" for another Cadet project! :)

[Bad Ass Wallace]

I just want to take this opportunity to say that you are ALL evil! This thread is tweeking my "Build Gene" for another Cadet project! :)

You could always build a 25/35 Winchester!

https://i.imgur.com/2tDJ9vFl.jpg

[John Taylor]

Looking through my barrel pile I found a cadet barrel marked 32 Special and another one marked 32-20 and one that has not been messed with.

[JDHasty]

Finally, after 33 years of wanting, I’m finally in the game. Committed to an action today.

I bought a book ~1991 by a cat name Boyd Mace called The Accurate Varmint Rifle that has a picture of a kid with a martini on the cover. I wanted one bad, and went looking for an action. I couldn’t find an action or rifle for under $400 and that one was trash. The itch has resurfaced, recurring at regular intervals since then.

So now I have a very nice looking BSA action on the way. I’ve got some time to cogitate on what it’s going to eventually be.

A stout barreled bench varmint rifle in 219 Zipper, or my buddy has one that weighs about five lbs that someone put a H&R Ultra Wildcat barrel on and chambered it in 17 Ackley Bee. I’ve got a brand new spare H&R Ultra Wildcat barrel in my safe, it’s chambered in 17 Remington, but I’m keeping it for my Ultra Wildcat. It’s on its second barrel and that one is about used up. I could just go ahead and order a barrel turned to the same profile and go that way and have a really nice little walking around varmint rifle.

I’m sure liking thought of that 25/35 posted above though. Maybe a stalking rifle is the direction I’ll go with it.

My other thought is 327 Federal. I have a MP gas check mold that casts a 115 grain GC HP. We have SSM and Single Seven revolvers. That would be fun.

It’s going to be some time before I get to it. I’ve got a BRNO Model 2 up next, followed by Remington 541s.

[technojock]

I have a model 12/15 BSA Martini rechambered to K-Hornet but the rim-fire to center-fire conversion was done poorly. I'm still hoping to find a BSA centerfire bolt... Back when it was working, it was a serious tack driver.

Tony

[Fishoot]

Techno, How was the conversion "done poorly"?

[Wilderness]

I have a model 12/15 BSA Martini rechambered to K-Hornet but the rim-fire to center-fire conversion was done poorly. I'm still hoping to find a BSA centerfire bolt... Back when it was working, it was a serious tack driver.

Tony - at one time I had both a Cadet and a 12/15. If I remember correctly, the innards could be swapped over 100%. About the only difference, apart from RF/CF was the inclusion of a cocking indicator on the Cadet. If you want a CF bolt look at Cadet parts. Then of course you would have to reduce the Cadet firing pin and bush the hole.

If the boltface of the 12/15 block is bad enough to require a rebuild, recall that the conversion of .577/.450 Martinis to .303 involved dovetailing in a new boltface.

[JDHasty]

Does anyone know if the Cadet stock bolt is a common pitch and what it is? I'm fine ordering one, but it impresses me that a head could be turned from a hex head bolt or a cap screw of the correct length would work.

[beltfed]

I enjoy "plinking" with my Cadet that had been rebored/rifled (12 twist) to 357 Magnum by Klein's /Chicago in late 1950s.
The rifle is externally still original with full length stock,etc and that very nice adjustable barrel rear sight.
It shoots very well with pretty much any decent 357 Mag load. The Keith SWC shoots well
and I have a nice load that shoots well: 358315 Lyman 200 gr over 13 grains of 4227.
It is a pussycat for recoil
beltfed/arnie

[john.k]

The stock bolt is a standard Whitworth thread ,maybe 3/8"..........anyhoo,a UNC will interchange for all practical purposes ,and Id think you could use a socket head bolt to save the trouble of altering a standard hex head........there is a steel washer in the wood.....or should be.

[gnoahhh]

Having owned around a dozen Martinis in different flavors over the years, the three I have now are the ones that "stuck to the wall": BSA 12 in absolutely mint condition, BSA International MkI (the one that still wins smallbore bench matches for me), and my all time favorite- a custom Cadet in .357 Maximum.

Some say they have feeding issues with the Maxi, but I don't. It does require holding the lever down in "extract/eject" position (breech block in lowest position) for the long straight cartridge to make it down and around the bend into the chamber. Very versatile: feed it everything from .38 Specials to .357 and .357 Maximum (but accuracy is best with loads in the long case). Velocity with an RCBS 200 grain cast bullet is easily in the 1900-2000fps range with 1680 (and its 26" barrel).

I wish I'd been smart enough to cook one up 40 years ago and saved myself all the (fun) bother of searching for "The Cadet".

https://i.imgur.com/smg4xJK.jpg

[JDHasty]

Thanks for the stock bolt advice

I went and did the paperwork on my action today and it looks really nice. I have a stack of CZ 527 American barrels in my safe and know I have some 22 Hornet and at least one 17 Hornet barrel. I’m pretty well decided on 17 Ackley Bee I think. I’m getting excited.

[schutzen-jager]

on back cover of June 1858 Guns magazines - shows the 3 calibers that Klein's converted them to - 32/20, .32 Win. spec, + .357 magnum -

[Baltimoreed]

My first Cadet was in 357 and sporterized. My second was still a correct Cadet on the outside but chambered in 32-20. Sold the 357 after I bought the other. Used 32-20 brass and 30 carbine dies and built good ammo. Shoots a 150 gr .321 boolit. A very cool rifle.

[technojock]

Techno, How was the conversion "done poorly"?

The new firing pin hoe was drilled at an off angle and he made up for it by welding on and undersized pin. The primers would flow back into the firing pin hole and the new firing pin broke off at around 50 rounds. He was out of business when I went back to complain.

I wish I could remember his name so I could ad mouth him on the net...

My plan is to braze up and redrill the firing pin hole one of these days when I'm feeling brave. I've bought all the drill bits I need to do the job.

Tony

[Fishoot]

Techno,
I have refaced a couple of Martini's with off center firing pin holes, or holes too large which caused the primer to flow around the pin and mechanically interfere with the block's movement. I had John Taylor ( a great guy to send a rifle to) reface my first Martini, and he did an excellent job. After that, and a lot of studying posts on this board, I started doing my own. The process starts with making a 1/2" diameter disc of 1/8" thick carbon steel and then milling a pocket in the face of the bolt. I glue the disc in the pocket with black loctite. A punch is made to fit inside a case to be used in the gun's chamber to mark the bolt face where the firing pin is to exit . I use a long piece of 3/16" diameter steel to butt the punch and put a mark in the face of the bolt. I carefully set up the bolt in the mill to center drill the firing pin hole then drill a 5/64" hole in the block. You have to turn the firing pin down to 5/64" and carefully fit it to the new hole. Frank DeHass wrote a good book Single Shot Rifles and Actions that details most of these procedures although it is mostly detailed in the rolling block portion. John Taylor has provided tips on this board too. To my knowledge, the welding and re-drilling procedure you propose is the least favored method. But then, I have no experience using the welding method. I know that my description lacks detail. I recommend looking through the previous posts John has written on this, and reading the DeHass book. Good Luck with whichever way you go.

[john.k]

For sure .....the blocks are high carbon steel ,and hardened ..........and if you weld they will turn glass hard and need to be annealed to drill .....if you break off a drillbit inside on a hard spot ,could be difficult to remove.

[JDHasty]

De Haas’ book Mr Single Shot’s Gunsmithing Idea Book goes into detail on the Martini actions. It covers the various methods.

[technojock]

For sure .....the blocks are high carbon steel ,and hardened ..........and if you weld they will turn glass hard and need to be annealed to drill .....

That would explain a lot of of what's going on with my Martini 12/15. The idiot gunsmith TIG welded up the old firing pin hole. When I dropped off the rifle I had a reprint of an old NRA American Rifleman article on how to do the conversion. We talked about and he agreed to do it as per the article then proceeded to go his own way...

More recently, I measured the firing pin hole with digital calipers and determined that I could make a new pin from a #40 drill bit. I was right that the hole was drilled with a #40 bit. However when it put the bit in the hole, it stuck off at a strange angle. He did a p*ss poor job of lining it up when he drilled the hole.

If I could get to Australia, I could buy a center-fire BSA Martini Cadet bolt for under 50 bucks Australian. However I cannot get any one there to ship me one... I have a couple customers there but they don't want to risk getting caught shipping one to me...

Tony

[marlinman93]

You might consider bushing the bolt face. Have someone drill or mill out the face to eliminate all the bad work, then tap that hole to a fine thread, and make a threaded plug to fit. Drill a hole for the correct size firing pin and then use Loctite to install the plug, and once it's set up face off the plug.

[technojock]

If the economy picks up enough next year to where I can sell off all my collection of old motorcycles and parts, I'll probably just send it out to be repaired by someone with a good reputation. Back in the late 80's we didn't have the online resources like we do now or I might have been able to find out in advance the guy I hired to work on my gun was a dip****.

On the other hand if I could get my hands on a replacement center-fire bolt, I think I could fix it myself...

Tony

[John Taylor]

About the only way to drill after welding is with carbide. At this point even going with a bushing it will take carbide to machine for the bushing. I usually make the bushing out of spring steel ( old truck springs), which is plenty tough enough for the application. The bushing get soldered in place.