Winchester 94 - 32 SPL a slower twist than 30-30?

[Jkrem]

I came across a discussion that suggested Winchester 94 32spl barrels have a slower twist, and thus are better for shooting cast bullets than Winchester 94 30-30 barrels. Is there really any material difference? If there is a sticky on this, please excuse me and point me in the right direction.

[FLINTNFIRE]

They are slower twist and it is why they will shoot worse with wear or degradation of barrel , had one and 30-30 will shoot better longer as to better for cast not really

[Bazoo]

The slower twist was to facilitate their use with black powder for those that either wanted to use it, or anticipated the need to use it due to the legistics of getting resupplied with smokeless or smokeless ammo.

[pmer]

Balisticly there's no difference, they will both shoot jacketed bullets to the same velocities but the slower twist of the 32 Win Special will make it easier to shoot cast at more velocity. I can shoot 50/50 alloy at 2200 fps in my 32 Win Special with out leading.
Just plain gas checks and lube.

Not only that but bigger deer will come out if they know you have a 32 Win Sp...

[Markopolo]

Balisticly there's no difference, they will both shoot jacketed bullets to the same velocities but the slower twist of the 32 Win Special will make it easier to shoot cast at more velocity. I can shoot 50/50 alloy at 2200 fps in my 32 Win Special with out leading.
Just plain gas checks and lube.

Not only that but bigger deer will come out if they know you have a 32 Win Sp...

This man knows the truth!!!

[eastbank]

i read that early 32 special shells were loaded with .318-.319 dia bullets and that caused the worn barrels to not to shoot to good, .321 bullets shot well ever in worn barrels. true or false, not sure but my well used 1938 winchester md 64 shoots under two inch three shot groups at 100 yards from a bench rest with .321 dia 165 gr bullets

[Hick]

Balisticly there's no difference, they will both shoot jacketed bullets to the same velocities but the slower twist of the 32 Win Special will make it easier to shoot cast at more velocity. I can shoot 50/50 alloy at 2200 fps in my 32 Win Special with out leading.
Just plain gas checks and lube.

Not only that but bigger deer will come out if they know you have a 32 Win Sp...

Exactly. The Win 94 in 30-30 is 1:12, while the 32WS is 1:16. There is an old, but still pretty good, idea that you can spin cast up to 140,000 rpm before the bullets start self-destructing. In the Win 94 32 WS the twist is low enough that you have to go over 3000 fps to get to 140,000 rpm. Of course, I don't run my 32 WS anywhere near that fast, but the 1:16 twist of a Win 94 in 32WS gives you lots and lots of leeway for cast. Also, with a lower twist, the stress on the bullet when it first hits the rifling and starts to spin is lower.

[floydboy]

PMER,

I just got a Winchester 94 in 32 Win Special and am in the process of working up a load. Was wanting to get in the 2000 to 2200 FPS area. If you don't mind what is you load that gets to 2200 FPS. I was planning on using IMR4895. From what I've been able to find 30 Grs. should get around the 2000 fps area.

Thanks,,,Floyd

[Randy Bohannon]

32 Win. Special barrels were made from left over 32-40 barrels. With the use of the new smokeless powder for the 30-30 Winchester saw a opportunity to use up the barrels by simply necking up the 30-30 to 32 cal. and making a reamer. Early 32 Winchesters had reversible rear sight elevators for blackpowder and smokeless powder for those folks who were used to reloading blackpowder and didn’t trust the new fangled smokeless powder, Winchester could sell more rifles.32 Win. Special has always had shallow rifling a leftover from its 32-40 days and it never changed to deep cut rilfling.The 32 Special is barley a good jacketed bullet shooter, treat it right with cast bullets you will enjoy superb accuracy .

[35 Rem]

I don't understand how the idea that as rifling wears in a 32 Winchester Special, the rate of twist will somehow become inadequate. I seems as if the perpetrators of the theory somehow think the bullet will spin slower as the rifling wears. They must believe that bullets don't actually engage and follow rifling but rather it is more like fins on a torpedo that slowly influence the bullet as it passes down the bore until it reaches some rate of spin hopefully close to matching the rifling twist near the muzzle. I fail to see how any experienced shooter could pass on such nonsense. A 32 Special will spin its bullets at 1 turn in 16 inches even with wear just as any rifle will spin its bullets at the rate matching the barrel twist.

Now to be honest, there isn't a ton of difference between the 30-30 and the 32 Special. But whatever edge exists belong to the 32 Special. As already stated, the slower twist rate stresses the bullet less and if you intend to shoot cast exclusively as I did you might as well choose the rifle with the advantage. Also th3 32 is always going to give somewhat higher velocity compared to the same weight bullet in a 30-30. Reason being that if loaded to the same pressure, the base area of a 32 caliber bullet is larger than a 30, so the force applied to the larger bullet will be greater. You can see this in the loading manuals and factory ammo velocities also. The 32 Special typically shoots a 170 grain about 100 ft/sec faster than the 30-30. Sure these aren't huge advantages and may not even be detectable when shooting deer but it might give the shooter a bit more confidence and make them shoot better. I bought a Miroku Model 94AE in 32 Winchester Special a couple years back based on these small but real advantages over the 30-30 and couldn't be happier. I'm shooting a 180 grain bullet from Accurate (32-180A) with 32.0 grains H4895 and I get 2,135 ft/sec with my 20" barrel. I also used the RCBS bullet 32-170-FN with good results. I've killed 5 deer with the rifle so far with 2 seasons of hunting.

[Shawlerbrook]

Bazoo is correct, the 32 WS was first developed when black powder was commonly used hence the twist rate.

[pmer]

PMER,

I just got a Winchester 94 in 32 Win Special and am in the process of working up a load. Was wanting to get in the 2000 to 2200 FPS area. If you don't mind what is you load that gets to 2200 FPS. I was planning on using IMR4895. From what I've been able to find 30 Grs. should get around the 2000 fps area.

Thanks,,,Floyd
I size at .323 and usually load around 29.0 of Reloader 7 for an Accurate 32-170 boolit. Imr 4895 sounds great. For the most part I use jacketed data for cast in this cartridge. I've tried 7.0 of Bullseye, AA2230, VV N540 and 33.0 of IMR 3031 with an Accurate 32-150. YMMV! I'm just a guy on the internet.

The 29.0 / #7 split a milk jug full of water in 2 pieces. I've shot plenty of jugs of water and never saw one go to pieces like that I supposed it was that meplat getting pushed that fast.

[Bent Ramrod]

I recall that Harvey Donaldson wrote once that it was his suggestion that goaded Winchester into producing the .32 Special chambering, since the tapered .32-40 case wasn’t as efficient with the smokeless powders available back then if you wanted “high” (over 2000 ft/sec) velocity. The bottleneck shell and the .32-40 barrel would allow both black powder and smokeless to be used to their potential.

Of course, old Harve said that he was the first to come out with every idea in the firearms industry in the first half of the 20th century.

Paco Kelly wrote that the wearing-out inaccuracy of .32 Spl. barrels was a function of neither caliber nor twist, but rather the ham-handed use of .30 caliber cleaning rods in the larger bores of lever guns, most of which had to be cleaned from the muzzle. A much quicker job of wearing at that point (particularly with the mild steel blackpowder barrels vs the “nickel steel especially for smokeless powder” barrels on the .30-30s) could be done if the rod could be angled a little more inside the larger diameter.

On the other hand, there was a rather poignant passage in one of Paco’s articles where he had almost reached 8mm Mauser ballistics in his .32 Special levergun when he heard an unusual noise on firing and smoke started issuing from several of the wrong holes in the action. So I guess there are other ways to wear out a .32 Spl. than careless cleaning.

[MostlyLeverGuns]

The 32 Special was developed to have more power than the 30-30 along with taking advantage of the familiarity and availability of the 32 barrels. It still is more powerful than the 30-30. You can usually get another 150-200 fps from a .32 Special over a .30-30 with the SAME WEIGHT bullets at the SAME PRESSURE due to the larger bore. I find it difficult to believe there are very many 'WORN-OUT' bores on these old rifles that were usually shot less than 20 rounds a year. McPherson wrote about the undersize bullets in factory ammunition. The .32 Special handles flat nose 200 grain bullets very well, grouping around 3" at 200 yards when the wind is light. 200 grain bullets were commonly used in the 32-40 by the target shooters of the day. I use .323 bullets in my Marlin 336 .32's, an A, an SC and an RC, all waffle tops, two were/are drilled and tapped with 4-16 scopes for the range. I do consider the .32 Special superior to the common 30-30 for both accuracy and power in the field. In my rifles getting 2000-2100 fps with a 200 grain bullet is easily achieved, closer to 35 Rem than 30-30. I have old Remington (1970's) and recent Starline brass. My Starline .32 Special rims are .060 while the Remington's are .054/.055, thus the Starlines fit most rifles better due to better headspacing. I do shoot my .300 and .308 Savage 99's a tick more than my .32 Special's, I usually shoot Matt's Bullets .323 185 Flat Nose Gas Check over 17 grs 5744, pleasant and very accurate. I do own a few Marlin's in .30-30 and .35 but I use the .32 Special's the most, did take a cow elk, a few antelope and deer using the 170 Speer.

[Hick]

Maybe some early 32 Winchester Specials had 32-40 barrels, but its hard for me to believe that was the standard. After all, the 32 WS was introduced in 1895 and manufactured well past WWII, and stampings on all the ones I have seen are clearly "Winchester Proof Steel 32 WS" I'm not an expert on that, however.

[FLINTNFIRE]

Well the one I had was well worn from cleaning or neglect but it shot a lot worse then a 30 caliber with as much wear and a faster twist , that 32 went down the road the 30 caliber stayed , which caliber is your favorite or you think gives you an advantage is ones personal choice , I prefer a cast bullet rifle of 45 caliber over the 30 or 32 , now jacketed I will take a 30 caliber .

Was not always cleaning that wore a bore , many from lack of cleaning or the older corrosive primers .

[451whitworth]

I don't understand how the idea that as rifling wears in a 32 Winchester Special, the rate of twist will somehow become inadequate. I seems as if the perpetrators of the theory somehow think the bullet will spin slower as the rifling wears. They must believe that bullets don't actually engage and follow rifling but rather it is more like fins on a torpedo that slowly influence the bullet as it passes down the bore until it reaches some rate of spin hopefully close to matching the rifling twist near the muzzle. I fail to see how any experienced shooter could pass on such nonsense.

People have been repeating old wives/gunwriters tales about the 32 W.S. for so long they assume they are true. There are quite a few that have been repeated here.

[John Taylor]

From what I have read the "special" was designed for loading with smokeless or black, same for the 38 Special. I have had many winchesters come in with a inch cut off the barrel to try and get them to shoot better. Seems the last inch of the barrel took a beating from cleaning rods. There are liners available for the 32 with 1 in 14 twist and 1 in 16 twist. the 32 special had to wait for the nickel steel barrel to come out in 1895, same as the 30-30. The first batch of 94s were made in 32-40 and 38-55 only because the older steel would no last long with the higher pressure and velocity of smokeless.

[Texas by God]

I thought that the 25-35 and 30WCF came out in 1895 and the .32 WS a few years later….?


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[451whitworth]

I thought that the 25-35 and 30WCF came out in 1895 and the .32 WS a few years later….?


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You would be correct

[indian joe]

32 Win. Special barrels were made from left over 32-40 barrels. With the use of the new smokeless powder for the 30-30 Winchester saw a opportunity to use up the barrels by simply necking up the 30-30 to 32 cal. and making a reamer. Early 32 Winchesters had reversible rear sight elevators for blackpowder and smokeless powder for those folks who were used to reloading blackpowder and didn’t trust the new fangled smokeless powder, Winchester could sell more rifles.32 Win. Special has always had shallow rifling a leftover from its 32-40 days and it never changed to deep cut rilfling.The 32 Special is barley a good jacketed bullet shooter, treat it right with cast bullets you will enjoy superb accuracy .

i wasnt there at the time but I bet if they had "leftover" 32/40 barrels they woulda used em up.

[indian joe]

From what I have read the "special" was designed for loading with smokeless or black, same for the 38 Special. I have had many winchesters come in with a inch cut off the barrel to try and get them to shoot better. Seems the last inch of the barrel took a beating from cleaning rods. There are liners available for the 32 with 1 in 14 twist and 1 in 16 twist. the 32 special had to wait for the nickel steel barrel to come out in 1895, same as the 30-30. The first batch of 94s were made in 32-40 and 38-55 only because the older steel would no last long with the higher pressure and velocity of smokeless.

Cleaning rod damage still happening I want to scream at the range when I see blokes cleaning from the front with no muzzle protector on the ramrod - where I shoot more dont use them than do .

[Larry Gibson]

Bazoo is correct, the 32 WS was first developed when black powder was commonly used hence the twist rate.

Randy Bohannon is actually correct also. Winchester had a pile of 32-40 barrels along with the tooling to keep making more. The 32-40 M94s weren't selling well because of the advent of the 30-30. Those who would have wanted to shoot BP would have just gotten the proven 32-40 BP shooting cartridge. The 32 SPL was just a "modern cartridge" at the time to use the 32-40 barrels.

It is an excellent cast bullet cartridge BTW which can be loaded to full potential and then some. A 170 gr GC'd bullet over a full case (up to base of seated bullet) of LeveRevolution will exceptional velocity and accuracy with under factory level pressure.

[farmbif]

+1 for the full case of leverevoluition and rcbs 32-170. I dont know why but I have been led to believe the twist in the 32 win spl barrel was 1-14 and the 30-30 is 1-12. earlier someone wrote that it is 1-16. does anyone know for sure the history and what twist rate was put in the barrels though winchesters history?

[35 Rem]

Every reliable source I've seen always quotes the 32 Winchester Special at 1-16 twist. I know that's what the Miroku Model 1894 I have has. It is significantly slower than its cousin the 30-30.

I need to get an 8lb jug of LeverEvolution because I have seen the velocity vs low pressure numbers and am impressed.

[Hick]

+1 for the full case of leverevoluition and rcbs 32-170. I dont know why but I have been led to believe the twist in the 32 win spl barrel was 1-14 and the 30-30 is 1-12. earlier someone wrote that it is 1-16. does anyone know for sure the history and what twist rate was put in the barrels though winchesters history?

I don't know anything of the history, but my 32 WS was built in 1949 and I have measured the twist. It is 1:16.

[salvadore]

I shoot an accurate bullet at about 1800fps. The bullet weighs about 160
grains. I use ball C2 @ 30 grains.
aybe I should use a disclaimer, but that liad gives me 2moa at 50 yds. I like it.

[john.k]

You could still buy a 94 in 32 spec in 1973 when I bought mine ............It was probably discontinued in 1982 ..........although the commeratives were in 32spec sometimes for many years .