32 caliber for a Forehand Arms revolver.

[rebelrider.mike]

Hi all,

I'd like to try casting bullets for my old revolver. I've been searching around the internet, and a lot of the results I get are coming from this forum, so I figured I should join. Here's a few pictures of the gun:
324128
324129
324130
From what I've read, this gun was made between 1890-1902, and uses 32 caliber S&W short black powder cartridges. I've also seen that this kind of ammo is pretty rare, and I think it would be fun to load my own rounds.

After more searching, it looks like it may be a good idea to make my own bullets too. So I found a nice set of calipers and some scrap lead and made a few slugs. After slugging the bore, I got these measurements:

Land diameter: 0.3040"
Groove diameter: 0.311-0.315"
Overall barrel length: 3.002"

I also measured the cylinder:

Loading end of the chambers: 0.3440"
Other end of the chambers: 0.3395"
Overall cylinder length: 0.9190"

I don't know all the things yet that I think I need to before ordering a mold, but from what I've read, the bullet diameter should be 0.001" larger than the barrel diameter. So I'm thinking 0.316"?

I've been looking at the molds from AccurateMolds.com and the 31-090L Looks like it might be a good fit.

[hporter]

Mike,

Just a safety note, I have a Forehand Arms .32 that sounds similar to yours given to me by a friend (your photo's did not come through, so it is hard to tell). Please find a tight fitting dowel (or even better a Brownells range rod if you have one) and check the timing of the cylinder to the bore. With it empty, slide the check rod down the barrel and cock the revolver until it "locks up" and then see if the rod will cleanly enter the cylinder. I scrounged parts for mine until I had it all together, and then checked the timing. It was way off, so I quietly put it back into the future projects box for more "adjusting". Your revolver might be fine, but it is worth the time to check.

Here is my Forehand - before I scavenged the parts for it. I have a short and long case in the photo because if I remember correctly, they both fit down the cylinder!

324141

I asked Tom to design the 90L for me years ago because I couldn't find a Lyman 313249 for a decent price. He can't do a true round nosed design, limited by a .18 meplat requirement.

Here is a photo (poor photo) of my Iver Johnson Topbreak .32 with those 090L bullets loaded over Black Powder.

324140

It has been an excellent mold for using in .32 S&W, .32 S&W Long and .32 H&R for me.

Your throat dimensions sound a little large on that cylinder. For a revolver, you normally fit the bullet to the cylinder throats. To be honest, I don't think I ever measured my Forehand because I didn't get that far in the process. But I will check them tonight after work if you are interested in the comparison.

Best of luck with your project. It sounds fun. These old revolvers are a bit of American history, and though some folks don't view them as much more than junk and a waste of money, I enjoy loading for them and shooting them very much

{EDIT} If you want to try some of those bullets before buying the mold - send me a PM and I will send you a few to make some smoke.

[schutzen-jager]

not able to view pictures , iirc they also made them for .32 S&W long + .32 rimfire long + short -

[rebelrider.mike]

Thanks. I'll try posting the pictures again:
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324147

I've had it to a gunsmith who assured me that it's good to go. But I'll do the dowel check too.

I've read that some revolver chambers have a throat at the end that makes a sort of shelf that the bullet goes through. My chambers seem to be pretty much straight through holes with no shelves or tapers or anything. I think the tapering or whatever resizing happens as the bullet enters the bore. I could take some closeup pictures if that would help.

[HumptyDumpty]

Since you are just getting started, definitely slug the bore, and buy a mold to match, However, I have a wide variety of 32's and I've found that using .312"-.313" projectiles works pretty well across the board. If you have the chance to acquire some cheap projectiles, or if you accumulate additional 32 caliber guns, you might see if .312"-.313" works as your default diameter. It simplifies things greatly.

[dondiego]

They still make .32 S&W centerfire ammo don't forget. How much are you really going to shoot it?

[rbuck351]

With that large of cylinder in the front , it sounds like you will need a heeled bullet. Depending on the length of the cylinder, you may get away with using 32 S&W long or 32 mag cases trimmed to the length of the cyl and loaded with the boolits set completely inside the case. Otherwise that large front area of the cyl will allow the boolits to start to tumble before it gets to the barrel.

[rebelrider.mike]

Starline Brass has S&W short cases that are about 0.6" long, and if I'm looking at the 31-090L diagram right, the bullet will stick out of the case about 0.29". So the overall length would be 0.89", but that includes the rim which stays outside the chamber. According to a general Google search, 32 caliber rims are about 0.045".

So that leaves 0.074" of empty space in the cylinder. If my numbers and math are right.

I found a local gun sports association. If I can shoot there, and make ammo that works well with the gun, I could see myself shooting more often. My son has a 9mm pistol that he likes to practice with. We've gone together to a shooting range before. Though I've always had to rent or borrow guns before now.

I'm trying to remember if I've ever shot black powder before. I don't think I have.

[dtknowles]

It is kind of hard to know where to start this discussion with you. Do you currently reload for any firearm? Do you currently cast any bullets? What do you have for equipment?

I think that someone modified that gun to shoot .32 S&W Long wadcutter ammo. I think the bored the chambers thru. If it was my gun, I would make sure that a piece fired empty .32 S&W long brass would chamber and if it does I would shoot it with .32 long brass and bullets seated flush or below the mouth of the case. This will cure the oversize throat problem and also it means that one of the most common .32 cartridges will work in your gun. .32 Long full wadcutter ammo is as available as any .32 revolver ammo. That would give you a supply of brass that you could reload with round balls and other bullets you could buy or cast. If you are going to cast and this is the only gun you will be casting for I would get a wadcutter mold.

Tim

[rebelrider.mike]

Well, I have experience casting lead, but not for bullets. I have no real equipment yet. Just an iron ladle and a torch. I've always used scrap wood for molds. The don't last beyond one or two castings, but that's always been enough for my one-off projects. It's also how I made the slugs for slugging the bore of the revolver.

I've got a bunch of lead, though I've never thought to try to figure out it's purity. I'll need to at least figure out it's hardness before I'd use it to make bullets I'd be willing to shoot. From what I've read, people use all sorts of scrap lead for their bullet casting and it seems to work ok.

I figure if I can get a proper mold that makes a bullet that will fit well with the gun, then I can practice casting until I'm able to make good bullets. I'll need a melting pot to help make the casting less clumsy, and keep the temperature more consistent. But those aren't too expensive. And it would be really nice to be able to melt lead without an open flame.

From there I'd add equipment as I can afford it. If I hate doing it, or really suck at it, or I just lose interest, I can always sell it.

So granted I'm a noob at all this, but wouldn't an S&W long be about 0.9"? That would leave almost no room at all for a bullet. Unless the wadcutter bullet doesn't stick out from the case much? I'll need to learn more about wadcutters.

Also, if I oversized the bullet to 0.344" would it still fit the 0.315" barrel ok? I know that they obturate in the barrel, but I don't know how much diameter is too much.

[racepres]

It was Not uncommon to find inexpensive, and/or early revolvers, with the cylinders bored straight thru.. Inexpensive!
Were that one Mine, and I wanted to shoot it, ...I would start by borrow/buy a small quantity of Boolits. Mine would be .314/.315 (bore size) and I would load em and shoot for effect. Starting with a Boolit that fills the Cylinder hole, thereby providing the "seal" which they are supposed to do...is Good..But, counter productive, in this circumstance, IMO, as Pressure is Bound to Rise, while trying to squeeze that Boolit down that far..
I aint real sharp on all this...But, Feel compelled to offer my $0.03
Edit; While I generally shoot very "soft" boolits in low pressure loadings, in this situation, with such a Mismatch, I would opt for a bit harder alloy, hoping they do Not obturate on the way from cylinder to Bore! Maybe Wishful thinking...IDK...Just what I think.

One more Edit;
I did not realize this

They still make .32 S&W centerfire ammo don't forget. How much are you really going to shoot it?
I will be attempting to source some locally...will let ya know if Successful..

[gunseller]

Soft or pure lead is what you want for black powder. Black will bump the bullet up some at firing. You want s soft bullet lube. Don't worry about how it is formulated. We can spend days arguing about what it has to be made from. With a 4inch barrel it doesn't matter. A bullet of .312 cast out of soft leaf will work. Remember black powder must fill the case to the point that the bullet base is solid against the powder. Don't make rocket science out of it as it is not. Cast, load, shoot and have fun. After firing black powder ammo the firearm needs to be cleaned shortly. A mix of dawn soap and water works well. Just clean some time that day or the next should be OK. If you are using round balls with black you still need to have the powder and base of ball touching. Have fun with the cool new, old, firearm. There is just something about bring them to life. The oldest one I shoot was made in 1863. Have fun.

[racepres]

Soft or pure lead is what you want for black powder. Black will bump the bullet up some at firing. You want s soft bullet lube. Don't worry about how it is formulated. We can spend days arguing about what it has to be made from. With a 4inch barrel it doesn't matter. A bullet of .312 cast out of soft leaf will work. Remember black powder must fill the case to the point that the bullet base is solid against the powder. Don't make rocket science out of it as it is not. Cast, load, shoot and have fun. After firing black powder ammo the firearm needs to be cleaned shortly. A mix of dawn soap and water works well. Just clean some time that day or the next should be OK. If you are using round balls with black you still need to have the powder and base of ball touching. Have fun with the cool new, old, firearm. There is just something about bring them to life. The oldest one I shoot was made in 1863. Have fun.
Oddly...I have yet to load any Cartridge with BP. How would this be??
Single #1 or #0 ball pushed into whatever case fits...over???? Just how much BP please...Assuming the ball weighs between 40 and 50 grains?? The ball can easily be pushed right down against the powder with a Darn Pencil!!!
I have been loading round balls into S&W cases (simply pressed into mouth...not bottomed), over Nitro-100NF. 1.0 gr yields a very mild, and sooty 425fps...Upside, No Need to resize!!!

[Wayne Smith]

BP is easy - it is a case full or some compression - no air space at all. And you are likely to be surprised at how powerful the BP round is.

Yes, you need to resize simply to create some neck tension - otherwise the boolits will pull and lock up your cylinder.

[HumptyDumpty]

Oddly...I have yet to load any Cartridge with BP. How would this be??
Single #1 or #0 ball pushed into whatever case fits...over???? Just how much BP please...Assuming the ball weighs between 40 and 50 grains?? The ball can easily be pushed right down against the powder with a Darn Pencil!!!
I have been loading round balls into S&W cases (simply pressed into mouth...not bottomed), over Nitro-100NF. 1.0 gr yields a very mild, and sooty 425fps...Upside, No Need to resize!!!

Black powder is very simple and the exact charge isn't crucial, though the original 32 S&W was loaded with 9 grains (by volume, not weight) of 3F. In the past, I've just eyeballed it with 2F and an eighty-five grain projectile, with good results. I am not sure how much more the Long case holds.

[dtknowles]

Well, I have experience casting lead, but not for bullets. I have no real equipment yet. Just an iron ladle and a torch. I've always used scrap wood for molds. The don't last beyond one or two castings, but that's always been enough for my one-off projects. It's also how I made the slugs for slugging the bore of the revolver.

I've got a bunch of lead, though I've never thought to try to figure out it's purity. I'll need to at least figure out it's hardness before I'd use it to make bullets I'd be willing to shoot. From what I've read, people use all sorts of scrap lead for their bullet casting and it seems to work ok.

I figure if I can get a proper mold that makes a bullet that will fit well with the gun, then I can practice casting until I'm able to make good bullets. I'll need a melting pot to help make the casting less clumsy, and keep the temperature more consistent. But those aren't too expensive. And it would be really nice to be able to melt lead without an open flame.

From there I'd add equipment as I can afford it. If I hate doing it, or really suck at it, or I just lose interest, I can always sell it.

So granted I'm a noob at all this, but wouldn't an S&W long be about 0.9"? That would leave almost no room at all for a bullet. Unless the wadcutter bullet doesn't stick out from the case much? I'll need to learn more about wadcutters.

Also, if I oversized the bullet to 0.344" would it still fit the 0.315" barrel ok? I know that they obturate in the barrel, but I don't know how much diameter is too much.

Most of the time wadcutters do not stick out much beyond the end of the case
https://www.ammunitiontogo.com/index.php/cName/32-sw-long-wadcutter
https://www.wholesalehunter.com/nimages/5934100_Pic2.jpg
If you cast your own and load them in the .32 S&W long brass you will not want them to be oversize.

You can melt your lead on a kitchen stove in a cast iron or stainless-steel pot. If the pot has plastic handles remove them and do not use an aluminum pot, they get soft at molten lead temps. Heavy duty pot holds the heat better for better temp control. I did this when I started casting and my mother did not complain even when I fluxed with wax but remember to burn the fumes with a match. I was a teenager.

Tim

[dondiego]

I would not shoot that pistol at all if it has been modified at all. It is not a very strong design.

[dtknowles]

Black powder is very simple and the exact charge isn't crucial, though the original 32 S&W was loaded with 9 grains (by volume, not weight) of 3F. In the past, I've just eyeballed it with 2F and an eighty-five grain projectile, with good results. I am not sure how much more the Long case holds.

9 gr. of black powder is the same by weight or volume. My measure delivers Goex 3f powder at the weight that matches the volume setting. Truly grains is weight not volume. Volume would be something like cubic inches. There is nothing wrong with weighing you black powder charges.

You can't get 9 gr. of 3f bp in a modern .32 S&W case 8 gr. overflows the case, 6.5 gr. might fit depending on the bullet you do want a little compression. 13.5 gr. overflows a modern .32 S&W long case and I think 12 gr. would work.

Tim

[racepres]

I would not shoot that pistol at all if it has been modified at all. It is not a very strong design.

Maybe when I come down there for the Harley Drags. I will let ya shoot one of Mine!!! Yer missin alot of fun shootin smallish projectiles at pedestrian speeds.. 4-500 fps!!

[HumptyDumpty]

9 gr. of black powder is the same by weight or volume. My measure delivers Goex 3f powder at the weight that matches the volume setting. Truly grains is weight not volume. Volume would be something like cubic inches. There is nothing wrong with weighing you black powder charges.

You can't get 9 gr. of 3f bp in a modern .32 S&W case 8 gr. overflows the case, 6.5 gr. might fit depending on the bullet you do want a little compression. 13.5 gr. overflows a modern .32 S&W long case and I think 12 gr. would work.

Tim

You know it's funny, I never thought to try weighing the charge; I just used the volumetric measure, and assumed that it was different. Good to know. Of course you are also correct about balloon-head brass, but I actually have some which I do use. Many people say not to, but it doesn't seem to be a problem with these tiny, low-pressure rounds.

[Tall]

Sounds like the revolver you have is chambered in the 32 Colt cartridge that uses heel type bullets. You will need a special crimp tool for those:
https://oldwestbulletmoulds.com/shop/ols/products/32-colt-crimp-die

Bullets are pretty cheap - maybe these would work for you?
https://oldwestbulletmoulds.com/shop/ols/products/32-90-grain-heel-bullets

As someone else said, just fill the cartridge 3/4 of the way so the bullet will compress the black powder a little.

[HumptyDumpty]

Sounds like the revolver you have is chambered in the 32 Colt cartridge that uses heel type bullets. You will need a special crimp tool for those:
https://oldwestbulletmoulds.com/shop/ols/products/32-colt-crimp-die

Bullets are pretty cheap - maybe these would work for you?
https://oldwestbulletmoulds.com/shop/ols/products/32-90-grain-heel-bullets

As someone else said, just fill the cartridge 3/4 of the way so the bullet will compress the black powder a little.

From his measurements, if I am reading these drawings correctly, it should be 32 S&W. Or course, it's easy to check, sin 32 S&W shouldn't fit into a 32 Colt chamber.324190324191

[dtknowles]

Sounds like the revolver you have is chambered in the 32 Colt cartridge that uses heel type bullets. You will need a special crimp tool for those:
https://oldwestbulletmoulds.com/shop/ols/products/32-colt-crimp-die

Bullets are pretty cheap - maybe these would work for you?
https://oldwestbulletmoulds.com/shop/ols/products/32-90-grain-heel-bullets

As someone else said, just fill the cartridge 3/4 of the way so the bullet will compress the black powder a little.

The 32 colt is a smaller diameter and when fired in that chamber the case will split.

He already measured the chamber and if his measurements are right, it is a .32 S&W with an oversize throat that will accept an .32 S&W Long case but would only work with .32 long brass if the bullet is seated flush or less with the mouth of the case.

Tim

[dtknowles]

You know it's funny, I never thought to try weighing the charge; I just used the volumetric measure, and assumed that it was different. Good to know. Of course you are also correct about balloon-head brass, but I actually have some which I do use. Many people say not to, but it doesn't seem to be a problem with these tiny, low-pressure rounds.

I measure almost all my pistol charges by volume both smokeless and BP, but I do check the weight of the charge from time to time to make sure the powder measure is set properly and when using a dipper, I check the weight to make sure I am using the right dipper when using smokeless powder. Measuring BP using volume dropper I can tell it is right just by eyeball since it should be filling the case or chamber if it a Cap and Ball revolver. On muzzle loaders, the amount is less important as long as each charge is the same.

Tim

[dtknowles]

You know it's funny, I never thought to try weighing the charge; I just used the volumetric measure, and assumed that it was different. Good to know. Of course you are also correct about balloon-head brass, but I actually have some which I do use. Many people say not to, but it doesn't seem to be a problem with these tiny, low-pressure rounds.

If I had ballon head brass, I would use them with BP. They might be fine with smokeless but for smokeless you don't need the extra room. I think for a while someone was making new balloon head brass in Cowboy calibers but with the current brass shortage, they are probably out of stock.

Tim

[dondiego]

Maybe when I come down there for the Harley Drags. I will let ya shoot one of Mine!!! Yer missin alot of fun shootin smallish projectiles at pedestrian speeds.. 4-500 fps!!

Oh! Don't get me wrong. I have many 32's and love to shoot and reload for them but I have seen many that are not in good enough shape to shoot regularly. If this OP doesn't have much experience with these small pistols I am just recommending that he buy a box of 32 S&W ammo and see how it performs. If his firearm has been modified it might be able to chamber a round that is not suitable to fire in it. I have several .32 caliber revolvers and do shoot and reload for mine but they do have their limits.

Hey racepres, if you come down to the Milan Dragway, look me up and we can shoot in my back yard! I welcome you.

[racepres]

Oh! Don't get me wrong. I have many 32's and love to shoot and reload for them but I have seen many that are not in good enough shape to shoot regularly. If this OP doesn't have much experience with these small pistols I am just recommending that he buy a box of 32 S&W ammo and see how it performs. If his firearm has been modified it might be able to chamber a round that is not suitable to fire in it. I have several .32 caliber revolvers and do shoot and reload for mine but they do have their limits.

Hey racepres, if you come down to the Milan Dragway, look me up and we can shoot in my back yard! I welcome you.
I enjoy shooting all manner of arms.. and am Not against starting lowNow...and giving Up if it is obviously a Lost Cause!!
I will be at Milan Dragway, and will let ya know our itinerary...If Ya Like...

[Wayne Smith]

I don't know this for a fact but believe that most all of those old 32S&W revolvers were drilled through - I know my H&R is. And, since the 32S&W and the 32 Long were operating at much the same pressures with BP loads it really wasn't a problem?

[dondiego]

I don't know this for a fact but believe that most all of those old 32S&W revolvers were drilled through - I know my H&R is. And, since the 32S&W and the 32 Long were operating at much the same pressures with BP loads it really wasn't a problem?

That makes sense......I just hope hope that a drilled through cylinder is not long enough to handle a .32 H&R Mag round.

[HumptyDumpty]

That makes sense......I just hope hope that a drilled through cylinder is not long enough to handle a .32 H&R Mag round.

It usually isn't, I've tried.

[Chappy]

Looking at the case dimensions, 32 s&w long has a case length of .920 and a rim thickness of .055 which would make the case just short enough to be contained in its cylinder. The other difference is the head thickness of the 32 s&w short is .045 so you might verify the clearance between rear of cylinder and breech face. The diameter is .334(short) vs .337 (long) yet bullet diameter is same at .312 which might make the long slightly thicker. The pressure rating on the long is 15k vs the short at 12k psi. All that said, if it was my project I would try the wadcutter (flat nose not button style) seated flush to prevent the bullet jump as much as possible.

[dtknowles]

Looking at the case dimensions, 32 s&w long has a case length of .920 and a rim thickness of .055 which would make the case just short enough to be contained in its cylinder. The other difference is the head thickness of the 32 s&w short is .045 so you might verify the clearance between rear of cylinder and breech face. The diameter is .334(short) vs .337 (long) yet bullet diameter is same at .312 which might make the long slightly thicker. The pressure rating on the long is 15k vs the short at 12k psi. All that said, if it was my project I would try the wadcutter (flat nose not button style) seated flush to prevent the bullet jump as much as possible.

This source disagrees with you regarding pressures and head dimensions.

https://www.theballisticassistant.com/saami-pistol-cartridge-catalog/

32 Smith & Wesson

MAP (CUP) – 12,000

MAP (PSI) – 17,000

Headspace – Rim

Headspace Dim – .055 to .069

Max Case Length – .603

Trim to Length – .585

COAL – .930 to .880

Head Diameter – .378

Small Pistol Primer


32 Smith & Wesson Long

MAP (CUP) – 12,000

MAP (PSI) – 15,000

Headspace – Rim

Headspace Dim – .056 to .070

Max Case Length – .920

Trim to Length – .900

COAL – 1.230 to 1.210

Head Diameter – .375

Small Pistol Primer

Just saying, not finding the same info you found.

Tim

[turtlezx]

found the cost of these new 1900 $7.50 my casting mentor called him MASTER CASTER he liked that.

said you spent $100 on reloading equipment for a $10 gun shook his head and walked away priceless

[racepres]

Looking at the case dimensions, 32 s&w long has a case length of .920 and a rim thickness of .055 which would make the case just short enough to be contained in its cylinder. The other difference is the head thickness of the 32 s&w short is .045 so you might verify the clearance between rear of cylinder and breech face. The diameter is .334(short) vs .337 (long) yet bullet diameter is same at .312 which might make the long slightly thicker. The pressure rating on the long is 15k vs the short at 12k psi. All that said, if it was my project I would try the wadcutter (flat nose not button style) seated flush to prevent the bullet jump as much as possible.

That is Not what the Current SAAMI shows!! Last I checked...Previous to this week, 32S&W MAP was 18,000
of course, we can be sure that some time awhile ago the 32S&W L changed downward also..

[dtknowles]

That is Not what the Current SAAMI shows!! Last I checked...Previous to this week, 32S&W MAP was 18,000
of course, we can be sure that some time awhile ago the 32S&W L changed downward also..

What do we do when SAAMI keeps moving the targets. And what gives with the CUP and PSI not being proportional seems something is out of whack.

Of course, this is the beauty of using Black Powder in these old guns. You can't put an unsafe amount of BP in one of those old cartridges. With this fellas gun all the black powder you can put in a piece of 32 S&W long brass along with a wadcutter or any bullet loaded below flush with the case mouth is not going to cause excessive pressure and might be pretty accurate.

Tim

[racepres]

What do we do when SAAMI keeps moving the targets. And what gives with the CUP and PSI not being proportional seems something is out of whack.

Of course, this is the beauty of using Black Powder in these old guns. You can't put an unsafe amount of BP in one of those old cartridges. With this fellas gun all the black powder you can put in a piece of 32 S&W long brass along with a wadcutter or any bullet loaded below flush with the case mouth is not going to cause excessive pressure and might be pretty accurate.

Tim

Yup...Agree wholeheartedly...and, I continue to load exactly the way I did in the Late '70's... Long as components are available..
The BP suggestion is absolutely the very best in this circumstance...

[Larry Gibson]

The idea that the 32 S&W cartridge (factory) give less pressure than factory 32 S&WL cartridges and are thus much safer to shoot in these old revolvers is a myth. Here are some actual pressure measurements I took of both cartridges using factory and reloads.

32 S&W

I recently inquired at several LGSs regarding any 32 S&W or 32 Short colt cartridges they may have laying around. I ended up with several sample of 32 S&W of various makes of unknown vintage. The purpose for the acquisitions was to pressure test them. I pressure tested them a couple days ago and had interesting results. I also ended up with full box of Western 32 Short Colt which I’ve not tested yet.

The test firearm was a Contender With a 10” barrel chambered in 32 H&R Magnum and a strain gauge affixed over the chamber at the prescribed SAAMI location for pressure measurement. The gauge was connected to the Oehler m43 and its attendant software in a laptop. I was able to measure the pressure and muzzle velocity of the assorted 32 S&W cartridges.

As a reference: 32 H&R Magnum

Federal 32 H&R 85 gr LSWC factory ammunition ran 1217 fps (987 fps out of 6 ½” Ruger SS) at 18,200 psi.
A Lee TL 90 gr SWC over 3.2 gr Bullseye ran 1128 fps at 16,500 psi

32 S&WL pressures;

Federal factory WCs; 12,000 psi
Lee TL 90 gr SWC over 2.8 gr Bullseye ran 1060 fps at 16,800 psi (880 fps out of my M30 S&W with 3” barrel)
Lee TL 90 gr SWC over 3.2 gr Bullseye ran 1165 fps at 19,300 psi.
98 gr cast SWC over 2.5 gr Bullseye ran 944 fps at 15,000 psi.
98 gr cast SWC over 4 gr Unique ran 1101 at 19,000 psi

The results of the 32 S&W factory ammunition;

Winchester Western 86 gr Lubaloy LRN; 786 fps at 18,900 psi
Winchester W-W; 727 fps at 15,300 psi
Winchester [WRA]; 729 fps at 16,300 psi
Remington [R-P]; 676 fps at 14,200 psi
Federal [F C] 86 gr FMJRN; 833 fps at 17,900 fps
Winchester [WRA] 86 gr FMJRN; 780 fps at 14,000 psi

The average pressures for the 32 S&W ran from a low of 14,000 psi to 18,900 psi. The 32 S&W is presumed to be a lower pressure cartridge than the 32 S&WL because it is the shorter cartridge. That presumption is probably based off similar cartridges such as the 38 SPL/357 Mag, the 44 SPL/44 Mag, etc. Thus, those presumptions has always led to the belief that using the 32 S&W in the old H&R and Iver Johnson top break 32 S&WL chambered revolvers was “safer” because of the less psi of the 32 S&W cartridge…….we see from the actual psi of numerous 32 S&W factory loads that is not always the case……..

I'm not saying 32 S&W ammunition is unsafe in 32 S&WL chambered top break revolvers or solid frame older revolvers just saying there's not a lot of difference, in pressure, between the two cartridges as is thought.

I might add that the psi of some original WRA 32 S&W loaded an 88 gr lead bullet over 7 gr of what appeared to be 4f BP ran 10,800 psi. They were Balloon head cases.

[rebelrider.mike]

It makes sense to me that a smaller amount of propellant in a small space could yield a similar pressure. Is Bullseye smokeless or black powder? I've read several places that suggest a S&W with black powder would be around 500 fps.

I read an article the other day that said psi and cup aren't directly proportional because of the very short duration of the maximum pressure. I didn't understand it all, but it has something to do with the time it takes to deform a piece of copper.

[dtknowles]

Once again I want to thank Larry for his testing and data sharing.

Thanks Larry.

Tim

[dtknowles]

It makes sense to me that a smaller amount of propellant in a small space could yield a similar pressure. Is Bullseye smokeless or black powder? I've read several places that suggest a S&W with black powder would be around 500 fps.

I read an article the other day that said psi and cup aren't directly proportional because of the very short duration of the maximum pressure. I didn't understand it all, but it has something to do with the time it takes to deform a piece of copper.

I is absolutely easy to put enough fast powder in that small case to create more pressure than is safe so the small case can make more pressure than the long case if that is how the ammo is loaded. The 32 S&W long wadcutter factory ammo is almost always loaded to lower pressures than all the other 32 S&W ammo because that is what the shooters who use it most want, not really the lower pressure but the lower recoil and lower blast because they are shooting at paper targets with precision not how good it might be at killing something.

Regarding the stories about the non-linearity of CUP vs. Psi being caused as you described, it is just a theory. There is very little data on the performance of materials when subjected to impulse loading (short duration high loads). It is clear that such a phenomenon as was suggested is real but it is not documented (or at least I have not been able to find such documentation) that this it actually the case. That you did not really understand it is not a surprise, it is not well understood. There are other theories about that as well but just it is good to know that the pressure might be higher than CUP suggests and using PSI data is probably better.

Tim

[racepres]

I is absolutely easy to put enough fast powder in that small case to create more pressure than is safe so the small case can make more pressure than the long case if that is how the ammo is loaded. The 32 S&W long wadcutter factory ammo is almost always loaded to lower pressures than all the other 32 S&W ammo because that is what the shooters who use it most want, not really the lower pressure but the lower recoil and lower blast because they are shooting at paper targets with precision not how good it might be at killing something.

Regarding the stories about the non-linearity of CUP vs. Psi being caused as you described, it is just a theory. There is very little data on the performance of materials when subjected to impulse loading (short duration high loads). It is clear that such a phenomenon as was suggested is real but it is not documented (or at least I have not been able to find such documentation) that this it actually the case. That you did not really understand it is not a surprise, it is not well understood. There are other theories about that as well but just it is good to know that the pressure might be higher than CUP suggests and using PSI data is probably better.

Tim
Maybe...from a Purely Absolute Safety aspect...But..I am a Believer in "Moment of Impact"
Ruined alot of Transmissions Drag Racing.. even after we learned of M.o.I... A very strong impact, that don't last very long is Sometimes a Good Thing!!!! Relatively!!!! But, There are those who devine to use Big Numbers to Scare Us!!!!

[dtknowles]

Certainly, a structure is more likely to not be damaged by a force that last a extremely short time than the same force for a longer time.

A copper crusher is a structure intended to be damaged and the amount of damage is used to determine the amount of force it was subject too. A huge force for a tiny time might not even show damage. The pressure force on the crusher from something like a small low pressure handgun cartridge is going to be a short duration event in any case. Total duration will be less than a millisecond and the time spent where the pressure is above half the peak pressure less than half a millisecond. The whole event could be considered an Impact.
Tim

[racepres]

Certainly, a structure is more likely to not be damaged by a force that last a extremely short time than the same force for a longer time.

A copper crusher is a structure intended to be damaged and the amount of damage is used to determine the amount of force it was subject too. A huge force for a tiny time might not even show damage. The pressure force on the crusher from something like a small low pressure handgun cartridge is going to be a short duration event in any case. Total duration will be less than a millisecond and the time spent where the pressure is above half the peak pressure less than half a millisecond. The whole event could be considered an Impact.
Tim
I am going to go wayyyy out on this limb now.. If I was looking for a Cylinder that needed to contain extremely high pressure...I would devise a method to place a Measured amount of Pressure In the cylinder...to test it against a Competing Cylinder...and either Place an amount of pressure to Destroy the cylinder...and choose the Cylinder that was Destroyed at the Highest Pressure... or...Place a Strain Gauge on the cylinders to be tested, and decide that the Cylinder that held the most Strain, yet returned to it's original Shape/configuration, was the strongest... IMO the Proper use of a Strain Gauge...
Assuming that A Chiwanese Sewer Pipe, would react the same as High quality, properly heat treated, ordinance steel, is Ludicrous!!
To Then decide that the Same Pressure would make either React Identically...Worser.
Bottom Line ... sorry to say, the assignment of PSI to a Given Strain... while assuming all ordinance steel is Identical...Nah...Simply Cheap... No real idea what is actually being applied... be it assigned the value of PSI or Molecules displaced!!
Not Like A Port that measures what is going on Inside, by Crushing a Known composition pellet... Not Cheap!!!
I cannot imagine a Device that could measure, and Record. Real PSI...
Edit; The reason we are constantly admonished that a given "load" is Not going to be the same in every Firearm... we need to test in Our Own... assuming we can recognize safe from Not Safe.

[Larry Gibson]

racepres

The correct use of either a Transducer, a strain gauge or the C.U.P. system requires the use of "reference ammunition" to get a correlation/correction factor. That factor is then used to adjust for the differences in the test barrel steel, the chamber and bore dimensions and wear. The reference ammunition is of known pressure and then becomes the "standard". Even the best of test fixtures used by different ammunition manufacturers or test facilities will give different pressure measurements with the same ammunition. They do that because each test machine is, in fact, "different" whether a very expensive test fixture or a production firearm.

The type of steel and the quality of the steel of the barrel obly contain the pressure, they have no bearing on the pressure created by the cartridge.

Consider a test fixture is simply a firearm also. Thus, what the test fixture measures the pressure at will most likely be a different pressure than the same ammunition would produce in a regular firearm. Basically it is due to the variability of "test" conditions. That is the reason for the "admonishment". Also, even with the same ammunition (same lot) the shot to shot variation of the pressure is much larger than most would think. Even with small ES/SDs of velocity there can be a large shot to shot pressure variation. If the data tells you a specific load gives a certain psi/C.U.P. that is just the average that was obtained. That average means half of the shots were a higher pressure and half of the shots were a lower pressure. The data most often does not, if ever, tell you what theat +/- variation was. If you have a 308W load that supposedly give 60,000 psi half of the shots could very well have been in the 60 to 63,000 psi range, or perhaps even more in your particular rifle.

The use of a transducer and/or strain gauge has proven to be the best and most consistent methods of measuring the pressure of cartridges.

[racepres]

Thanks for that Larry...
of course, my feeble mind must wonder who tested the reference ammo...and How??
But...I know I am throwing rocks here...
My "take" on the whole thing is that I do Not see any reason why the term PSI was Used to represent "strain"
Easy and Cheap, I Understand..... PSI??? Not so Much
and my reference to Quality of the Steel... well...just throwing Crap in the Shoot..
Apologies....As I still believe the Copper Crusher to be Accurate no Matter the "steel" and a Real World test IMO
Not easy, and Not economical...Certainly...tho Making Quality Firearms was Not Either..
I will leave this Lay... and again...Not attacking anything nor anyone... Just cannot wrap my feeble mind around SAAMI...nor their Methods...

[rebelrider.mike]

Well, look what showed up a few weeks early:
325094
I'm looking forward to casting some practice bullets.

My next purchase is a bit out of order, but I've read that 32 S&W dies are hard to find. I found one, so I bought it. The rest of the equipment is pretty generic so I'm not worried about finding them. I might get the brass cases next just in case the company decides to discontinue them.

[rebelrider.mike]

The brass cartridges are here:
326218

Everything seems to fit and move perfectly.
326219

I'm still waiting for the die press to arrive. Next week hopefully.

[rebelrider.mike]

I did some bullet casting yesterday.
326315

I don't have a melting pot yet, so I used a torch and an iron ladle. I thought to pre-heat the mold, but I don't think I got it hot enough. Lots of little gaps in the bullets. Also, the diameter isn't consistent. It ranges from 0.3145" to 0.3255".

Also, I don't know the purity of the lead I'm using. Just some scrap stuff I found to practice with. I've read that adding tin not only changes the hardness, but also reduces surface tension of liquid lead so it fills all the spaces in the mold better.

I slugged the bore with one of them and got the same results as I did with the slugs I made before I had the mold. The riffled diameter varies between 0.3135" and 0.3155".
326316

I was mostly just curious as to what the bullet would like after going through the bore.

[rebelrider.mike]

The press has arrived. I made a thing for it out of scrap wood so I don't have to drill holes in my bench.
326380

It all worked well, and I made 4 dummy rounds out of my 4 remaining practice bullets. And they still fit in the chambers.
326381

Just for fun I got my feeler gauges out again and measured the gap between the chamber and bore with the trigger pulled all the way back. I got 0.004". I wonder if it stays that small though when the gun is actually fired.

Things I still need to sort out:

Melting lead
Mold temperature
Scrap lead hardness or alloy
Primers
Powder
Bullet lube


I'm tempted to get a cheaper melting pot, but they all seem kind of dodgy, and the ones made by Lee have pretty good reviews. Plus Lee sells replacement parts for their stuff, which I appreciate.

[Wayne Smith]

I'm still using a 20lb pot on a camp stove. It works and it's cheap. You just need a good ladle.

[racepres]

I'm tempted to get a cheaper melting pot, but they all seem kind of dodgy, and the ones made by Lee have pretty good reviews. Plus Lee sells replacement parts for their stuff, which I appreciate.
I have been using the least expensive Lee Pot with a Ladle, since the '80's... Not exclusively anymore...but, it is still viable, and great for very small runs! FWIW