Universal v Unique

[braddock]

Over here in the UK Unique is a bit like rocking horse crap, but I've managed to get a hold of some Universal also some Lovex D036. All 3 have the same burning rate according to several manufacturers sites I've visited.
Has anyone used Universal as a substitute for unique in 30/30 and 308. I have boolits of 120, 145-ish, 163 172 and 180 grains apiece in 30 cal and would like to get a starting load, especially for the 308.
Any advice received gratefully.
I'm not to fussed about substituting D036 as it fills my 357 loads just fine but it's always there as a hard times substitute.

[Tall]

Universal has been discontinued by Hogdon, along with Titegroup and several other powders. It has been years since any was made.

I can't recommend that you substitute one powder for another. You need to follow a recipe for any caliber. I can say that Unique seems like a very fast powder for large rifle calibers like you are wanting to reload for. Unique has been available around here in any case. Load charts are for comparison purposes - not meant for what you are proposing.

[jdgabbard]

Universal has been discontinued by Hogdon, along with Titegroup and several other powders. It has been years since any was made.

I can't recommend that you substitute one powder for another. You need to follow a recipe for any caliber. I can say that Unique seems like a very fast powder for large rifle calibers like you are wanting to reload for. Unique has been available around here in any case. Load charts are for comparison purposes - not meant for what you are proposing.

It's been used for a long time for lighter loads in medium cases. See this thread: https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?39923-10-Grs-Unique-The-Universal-Cast-Boolit-Rifle-Load

Red Dot is also used very similarly: https://forum.castbulletassoc.org/thread/1387-the-load-is-13-grains-of-red-dot/



OP, I would suggest looking into Red Dot if you can't find Unique. It might be possible to work something up with Universal, but being an end of life/discontinued product you probably use much of it before it's gone...

[braddock]

Thanks both for your responses, jdg I'm nearly 80 and I reckon my pound of universal will make up to 700 rounds at the load level I'm thinking about, it'll probably outlast my needs!:(

[P Flados]

Quickload runs are not load data, but might help get you close. I will start with several boolits with the Lovex powder as availability is probably less of a concern.



Cartridge : .308 Win. (SAAMI)
Bullet : .308, 120, LYM LRN GC 311576
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.400 inch = 60.96 mm
Barrel Length : 22.0 inch = 558.8 mm
Powder : Lovex D036

CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms
-31.3 23 11.00 1665 757 14489 2346 100.0 1.821
-28.1 24 11.50 1710 798 15636 2436 100.0 1.756
-25.0 25 12.00 1754 840 16824 2526 100.0 1.696
-21.9 26 12.50 1796 881 18050 2615 100.0 1.641
-18.8 27 13.00 1838 923 19316 2704 100.0 1.591
-15.6 29 13.50 1879 964 20621 2793 100.0 1.544
-12.5 30 14.00 1919 1006 21965 2881 100.0 1.500
-09.4 31 14.50 1958 1047 23349 2968 100.0 1.459
-06.3 32 15.00 1997 1089 24772 3055 100.0 1.421
-03.1 33 15.50 2034 1130 26236 3142 100.0 1.385
+00.0 34 16.00 2072 1172 27739 3228 100.0 1.352
+03.1 35 16.50 2108 1214 29282 3314 100.0 1.320
+06.3 36 17.00 2144 1255 30866 3399 100.0 1.291
+09.4 37 17.50 2179 1297 32490 3483 100.0 1.262
+12.5 38 18.00 2214 1339 34156 3567 100.0 1.236
+15.6 39 18.50 2248 1380 35864 3651 100.0 1.210




Cartridge : .308 Win. (SAAMI)
Bullet : .308, 173, LYM LFN GC 31141
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.400 inch = 60.96 mm
Barrel Length : 22.0 inch = 558.8 mm
Powder : Lovex D036

CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms
-31.3 25 11.00 1465 839 19261 2264 100.0 1.936
-28.1 27 11.50 1503 883 20742 2355 100.0 1.872
-25.0 28 12.00 1539 926 22269 2446 100.0 1.813
-21.9 29 12.50 1575 970 23843 2537 100.0 1.759
-18.8 30 13.00 1610 1014 25463 2627 100.0 1.708
-15.6 31 13.50 1645 1057 27130 2716 100.0 1.661
-12.5 32 14.00 1679 1101 28843 2805 100.0 1.617
-09.4 33 14.50 1712 1145 30603 2894 100.0 1.576
-06.3 35 15.00 1745 1189 32411 2982 100.0 1.538
-03.1 36 15.50 1777 1234 34266 3070 100.0 1.502
+00.0 37 16.00 1808 1278 36169 3157 100.0 1.467
+03.1 38 16.50 1840 1322 38121 3244 100.0 1.435
+06.3 39 17.00 1870 1367 40122 3330 100.0 1.405
+09.4 40 17.50 1901 1412 42173 3416 100.0 1.376
+12.5 41 18.00 1930 1456 44274 3501 100.0 1.348
+15.6 43 18.50 1960 1501 46427 3586 100.0 1.322




Cartridge : .308 Win. (SAAMI)
Bullet : .308, 180, LYM LFN GC 311407
Useable Case Capaci: 44.066 grain H2O = 2.861 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.400 inch = 60.96 mm
Barrel Length : 22.0 inch = 558.8 mm
Powder : Lovex D036

CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms
-31.3 26 11.00 1451 856 20401 2243 100.0 1.933
-28.1 27 11.50 1488 900 21971 2333 100.0 1.870
-25.0 29 12.00 1524 944 23589 2423 100.0 1.811
-21.9 30 12.50 1560 989 25257 2513 100.0 1.757
-18.8 31 13.00 1594 1033 26975 2602 100.0 1.707
-15.6 32 13.50 1628 1077 28743 2691 100.0 1.661
-12.5 33 14.00 1662 1122 30561 2779 100.0 1.618
-09.4 35 14.50 1695 1167 32429 2867 100.0 1.577
-06.3 36 15.00 1727 1212 34348 2955 100.0 1.539
-03.1 37 15.50 1759 1257 36318 3042 100.0 1.503
+00.0 38 16.00 1790 1302 38340 3128 100.0 1.469
+03.1 39 16.50 1821 1347 40414 3214 100.0 1.437
+06.3 41 17.00 1851 1392 42542 3300 100.0 1.406
+09.4 42 17.50 1881 1438 44724 3385 100.0 1.378
+12.5 43 18.00 1911 1484 46962 3470 100.0 1.350
+15.6 44 18.50 1940 1529 49255 3554 100.0 1.324


And here are a couple of runs with Universal



Cartridge : .308 Win. (SAAMI)
Bullet : .308, 120, LYM LRN GC 311576
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.400 inch = 60.96 mm
Barrel Length : 22.0 inch = 558.8 mm
Powder : Hodgdon Universal

CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms
-31.3 37 11.00 1736 823 22534 2185 100.0 1.562
-28.1 39 11.50 1778 863 24112 2275 100.0 1.514
-25.0 41 12.00 1819 903 25727 2364 100.0 1.470
-21.9 42 12.50 1859 943 27380 2453 100.0 1.429
-18.8 44 13.00 1898 983 29068 2541 100.0 1.392
-15.6 46 13.50 1936 1024 30794 2629 100.0 1.356
-12.5 48 14.00 1974 1064 32557 2716 100.0 1.323
-09.4 49 14.50 2011 1104 34356 2803 100.0 1.292
-06.3 51 15.00 2047 1144 36193 2889 100.0 1.263
-03.1 53 15.50 2083 1185 38068 2975 100.0 1.236
+00.0 54 16.00 2118 1225 39981 3060 100.0 1.210
+03.1 56 16.50 2153 1266 41931 3144 100.0 1.185
+06.3 58 17.00 2187 1306 43921 3229 100.0 1.162
+09.4 59 17.50 2221 1347 45950 3312 100.0 1.140
+12.5 61 18.00 2254 1387 48019 3395 100.0 1.119
+15.6 63 18.50 2287 1428 50128 3478 100.0 1.099




Cartridge : .308 Win. (SAAMI)
Bullet : .308, 173, LYM LFN GC 31141
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.400 inch = 60.96 mm
Barrel Length : 22.0 inch = 558.8 mm
Powder : Hodgdon Universal

CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms
-31.3 41 11.00 1500 879 27979 2142 100.0 1.729
-28.1 43 11.50 1535 921 29862 2232 100.0 1.679
-25.0 44 12.00 1571 964 31787 2321 100.0 1.632
-21.9 46 12.50 1605 1007 33753 2410 100.0 1.590
-18.8 48 13.00 1639 1049 35762 2499 100.0 1.550
-15.6 50 13.50 1672 1092 37813 2587 100.0 1.512
-12.5 52 14.00 1704 1135 39907 2675 100.0 1.477
-09.4 54 14.50 1736 1178 42044 2762 100.0 1.444
-06.3 56 15.00 1768 1221 44226 2849 100.0 1.413
-03.1 57 15.50 1799 1265 46452 2935 100.0 1.383
+00.0 59 16.00 1830 1308 48723 3021 100.0 1.355
+03.1 61 16.50 1860 1352 51041 3106 100.0 1.329
+06.3 63 17.00 1890 1395 53406 3191 100.0 1.304 ! Near Maximum !

[muskeg13]

Universal has been discontinued by Hogdon, along with Titegroup and several other powders. It has been years since any was made.


Where did you get the info that Titegroup has been discontinued? It's listed as available for sale on the Hodgdon website now. Midway also has it. https://shop.hodgdon.com/hodgdon-titegroup/

[Driver man]

Universal is AP70 made by ADI but discontinued 2-3 years ago. I have a fair bit and wont run out for a while. I use it in place of Unique and use it in pistol loads and rifle loads. 308 , 303, 7.62x39, Rossi92 in 357, I load 303 and 308 using a wide range of projectiles up to 220 grain with very good results . The 7.62x39 will shoot 220grain using Ap70 but needs a little bit more work. in 308 using a cast 155 grain hp driven by 11 grains unique or AP70 lubed with Bens Red will give you 1580 -1600 fps .The same projectile with 10 grains and a dacron filler produces 1450 to 1500 fps.
173 grain cast driven by 10 grains Unique or AP70 will give you 1430to 1450 fps.
210 grain cast driven by 10 grains will give you 1325 fps . I use this load for red deer up close and get complete pass through with good expansion using soft alloy.

[braddock]

Hey, thanks fellas, what a mine of information.
I've just bought a NIB Lee hand press so I'll get to work as soon as the adaptors arrive to fit the dies.
PFlados many thanks for that info, it's everything I need. You were right the D036 is certainly available to the point that the price is about the same that it was two years back whereas Hodgdons etc has doubled in price if it's available.I'll only be loading toward the lower end of the scale as I have quite a bit of 2400 and RL7 though I'd prefer to keep that for the 30/30 full loads as my Win 94 really likes it.

[braddock]

Sorry, should clarify, I normally load on a Lee classic turret press, the hand press I bought to load when I'm on hunting trips where the airlines impose limits on the amount of ammo that can be carried.

[Pereira]

I have never tried Universal in my entire reloading life, but have used a ton of Unique in all kinds of applications. This old Winchester likes this load pretty well. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240305/67819195006944a02e9e9b78b434b173.jpg

Sent from my SM-A146U using Tapatalk

[braddock]

I loaded up 10 357 mag cases with around 6 grains of Universal and a 158 TC (silhouette boolit), not perfect tonight at the 25 yard indoor range but a step in the right direction.
I'm just making up a dipper to throw 10 grains of universal for the 308 as well as another dipper to throw 16 grains of 2400 for it. I found a stache of a further 75 167 grain gc boolits so I intend to load up all my spare 308 cases and about 40 of my 30/30 cases to see how they perform against one another, that is when the epoxy dries in the two modified lee dippers.

[racepres]

I do Not guess I will be substituting Universal for Unique in this lifetime...Unique is still less expensive...and has Much more load data...Certainly at My Shop ...so very much more... Universal don't even count..And, Unique is fairly inexpensive...But, Not Available...That is a Problem.. My personal solution is BE-86...YMMV

[braddock]

Just a quick post to bring folks up to speed, my 94 30/30 likes 167grn, 173 grn at around 1600 -2100 fps, best groups 2" at 50 yards with iron sights, absolutely loathes 120 grain boolits does full choke at 50 yards.
My BLR 81 in 308 loves them all which I found astounding, velocities from about 1600 wth the 120grns, 1750 with the 167 grn and 2100 with the 173 grn, best group was 1" with the 173 grns other 2 were about 1.5" I quite like these loads and, if I could shoot better, they could be much better.
Muzzle blast was quiet compared to full blown 308 rounds, 30/30 they're almost full blown loads but still quieter than factory loads.
Powders were universal for the 120 grain boolits, 2400 for the 167grn and Rl7 for the 173 grns.
I didn't experience any leading that I could see with about 80 loads through each gun.
The 120 grn loads were very short as can be expected and, surprisingly the 308 173 grn loads were 2.8" long and the bore or rather land diameter segment of the bullet was entering the rifling by about 20 though, making the last few degrees of lever throw a bit on the stiff side.
No such issues either extracting or pressure signs, very pleased with the way things went future 308 173 grain loads I will shorten by about 30 thou.
I just spent the afternoon gas checking a few hundred boolits,which are all plain based and I'm using sage outdoors pb gc, will be loading them up after eating.
Once again, many thanks for your guidance I really appreciate it.

[gwpercle]

Where did you get the info that Titegroup has been discontinued? It's listed as available for sale on the Hodgdon website now. Midway also has it. https://shop.hodgdon.com/hodgdon-titegroup/

:goodpost:
Like Like Like !!!

That's great to hear ... I had just discovered TiteGroup a few years ago and ...
I like It !
Gary

[justindad]

Universal has been discontinued by Hogdon, along with Titegroup and several other powders. It has been years since any was made.

I can't recommend that you substitute one powder for another. You need to follow a recipe for any caliber. I can say that Unique seems like a very fast powder for large rifle calibers like you are wanting to reload for. Unique has been available around here in any case. Load charts are for comparison purposes - not meant for what you are proposing.

I purchased Titegroup new from a sporting goods store within the last 6 months. I paid $31 for the pound.

[Henryseale]

[I can't recommend that you substitute one powder for another. You need to follow a recipe for any caliber. I can say that Unique seems like a veQUOTE=Tall;5697514]Universal has been discontinued by Hogdon, along with Titegroup and several other powders. It has been years since any was made.

You might want to re-check with your source on that info. Both Universal and Titegroup are readily available from multiple sources, including Hodgdon website.

[braddock]

Quick heads up, I had a pound of universal which I want to use up, I'm trying to sort out my inventory of powders downward so I've decided on the following strategy to standardise boolits and powders, I have a lee 309-170 FN mold for 30/30 with gas check rebate and I'm just going to use those in both my 30/30 and 308. For my 357 mag carbine I have a really old lee TL 358-158 swc mold, pre locating pins type with ridges and alignment grooves and that's my go to boolit for that gun.
With regard to powders I have a fresh supply of hodgdon's Lever evolution that I can use on the 30/30 at the start at load and lovex D073.5 that I can use at the start at load for the 308. I have lovex D03.6 for the 357. I'll use gas checks on all boolits and will probably powder coat the 308 ones as well. Mule snot will be my lub also.
I have a large Stache of pure lead, about 90 pounds of lyman#2 ingots and about 50 pounds of linotype. In round numbers that equates to about 15000 boolits of both calibers, I have about 3000 30 cal gcs and slightly less than a 1000 357 gcs and just under 10000 primers. At my current rate of consumption I can carry on for about 7 to ten years, given that I'm 80 in a couple months time I aint second guessing any further.....

[Tall]

Where did you get the info that Titegroup has been discontinued? It's listed as available for sale on the Hodgdon website now. Midway also has it. https://shop.hodgdon.com/hodgdon-titegroup/

Sorry I meant Trail Boss.

[judgecrater]

I will miss universal. Universal for pistol did it all. Did not know it was discontinued. Mostly CFE Pistol now. I know this does not help you with rifle loads.

[judgecrater]

Yea, Let's go Brandon.