Marlin 1895 Accuracy: Last Desperate Attempts

[RG1911]

I've run out of ideas, other than cast bullet alloy and maybe powder, to get this older Marlin to shoot better than shotgun patterns at 50 yards.

Background: I bought this 1895 in 45-70 used 10-15 years ago and play with it sporadically. Accuracy has never been satisfactory. Slugging the micro-groove bore revealed that is was quite oversize at .4595", so I bought a new NOE mold for a 325-gr boolit, and a .462" sizing die.

I mounted a 14X scope. Using RL-7 powder (47gr, 49gr, and 51gr from the Lyman book), weighed boolits, and my alloy that approximates Lyman #2, all loads looked like patterns, with 5 shots going into about 6" at 50 yards. (I should have chronographed the loads.)

I can think only of changing the alloy and/or the powder. For a different alloy, I have pure lead and virgin linotype. For powders, I have, over the years, accumulated 47 different powders from which to choose.

Neither a new barrel nor one of the new Ruger Marlins is in the budget.

Suggestions and recommendations will be welcomed.

Thank you, Richard

[HWooldridge]

Try the straight linotype with 50 grs of RL-7.

[longbow]

I have to say that I am surprised it won't group better than that! I had a Marlin 1895 in the 70's and shot cast boolits well from microgroove barrel. I have an 1894 Marlin in .44 mag now and it is also microgroove but shoots cast boolits well.

I never had any issues with the 1895 but something that occurs to me about the 1894 is that not only does it have a fat bore as most .44 mag. rifles do but when I was trying to get better accuracy I did some research and found comments on the Marlin Owners forum that Marlins often have tight spots in the bores under site dovetails and under roll stamping. So I slugged my barrel using a soft lead bullet drilled through and mounted on the end of a 5/16" rod then oiled it and ran it through the bore. Sure enough I found several tight spots! I made up some lapping slugs then used the same rod with a muzzle protecter to lap the tight spots. I was a bit concerned about lapping a microgroove barrel but it all went quite well and after lapping the tight spots I ran the lap full length a few times then called it a day. Accuracy improved dramatically and leading disappeared.

So there is something you might check. If you can run a bullet into the bore then tap it out with a rod, drill and put onto a rod so you can run it through the end to end and back and forth you will be able to find any tight spots if they are there. If there are they can be lapped out pretty easily. If not you have eliminated another variable.

Longbow

[oconeedan]

Your mould that casts .462 may be too big, and be deforming enough that your accuracy suffers.
Have you tried "normal" .458 moulds , and shoot the bullets as dropped?

[MostlyLeverGuns]

Your loads look fairly stout, bringing up scope performance and recoil fatigue. My 1895 Marlin 45-70 has broken a few scopes and they were 'the good ones'. I also installed a recoil pad and use a Past Shoulder pad when shooting it. Still, after 10 or 15 'full charge' rounds, I start to notice the recoil out of my 8.3 pound rifle with scope. Try some jacketed bullets, 300-350 grain with 'book' loads and check accuracy. With hard kicking rifles, I suspect problems with the scope and scope mounting first, then recoil fatigue. I have an early 1895, had that curved buttplate, and an 1895 Cowboy Remlin, but a good one. Either one will stay under 1.5 MOA at 100 and 200 yards. Sometimes a serious cleaning, clearing all hardened powder fouling, copper and lead can get things on the right track. I too have found bore constrictions under dovetails on some Marlin's but have not noticed any gross inaccuracies in those barrels. You did not state whether your bullet uses gas-checks, without gas checks your bullets will not handle the speed/pressure.

[RickinTN]

Your mould that casts .462 may be too big, and be deforming enough that your accuracy suffers.
Have you tried "normal" .458 moulds , and shoot the bullets as dropped?
If a bullet will chamber it's not too big. I would try a softer alloy with about 12 grains of Unique. That load works well in my 4 45-70's which includes 2 Marlins.
Good luck,
Rick

[RG1911]

If a bullet will chamber it's not too big. I would try a softer alloy with about 12 grains of Unique. That load works well in my 4 45-70's which includes 2 Marlins.
Good luck,
Rick

Rick,

Thank you. I'll have to buy a few pounds of a softer alloy. Do you have a suggestion? (eg: 1:20, 1:40)

Richard

[RG1911]

The bullets are non-gas check. Without the chronograph, I can't tell if the loads from the Lyman manual are a bit heavy. According to the manual, they should have been medium-level loads. BTW, I also had a recoil pad installed and still use a Past shoulder pad. It's not what I'd call a "plinking" rifle.

That scope is on only for development purposes; if I get it to shoot tolerably well, I'll just use the ghost ring sights I put on earlier, or, considering my aging eye sight, possibly a red/green dot.

I have tried it with factory and mild-to-medium-stout handloads using jacketed bullets. Accuracy is slightly better, but nothing to write home about.

Oh, and the bore is always very thoroughly cleaned. I don't *think* that's the problem.

Cheers, Richard

[RG1911]

Your mould that casts .462 may be too big, and be deforming enough that your accuracy suffers.
Have you tried "normal" .458 moulds , and shoot the bullets as dropped?

Yup. I tried standard retail .458" and some .460" I was able to buy from a gentleman here. Horrible results.

[HWooldridge]

Can you fire one or two rounds into water? Would need to be pretty deep but a full 55 gallon drum might stop a big slug if fired straight down. That might give some insight into whether they are skidding on the rifling.

My 1895 is an older one with the deep Ballard rifling. It shoots both cast and J-word pills quite well.

[RG1911]

Using the drilled-and-tapped bullet sounds like a very clever idea. Is the 5/16 rod the type that's threaded full-length that you can buy at the hardware store?

I'll find some pure lead (it's still in storage from the last move) and try that method. Before I slugged the bore quite a few years ago, I had read in the Marlin Owners forum about possible tight spots, particularly under the front sight, so I was paying attention for them. Nothing made itself obvious.

Unlike my match rifles, I'll be perfectly happy with 2MOA.

Cheers, Richard

[RG1911]

Good idea. I'll see if I can make it happen.

Cheers, Richard

[Sgt H]

The loads you posted are likely in the 2000fps area or more, too much for a plain base boolit. I will second the advice from RickenTN. 12 grains or so of Unique under your boolit should group better and if the rounds chamber your diameter is not to large. .002-.003" over groove is often used with cast boolits. I use 12-12.5 grains of Unique under 300-350 grain boolits and have found it very accurate in several different rifles. Velocity is in the 1100-1150 fps range. Very pleasant to shoot with little recoil. I don't consider this a hunting load but fun for plinking/gong shoots out to several hundred yards. For deer hunting I use a Lyman/Gould HP that casts about 340 grains in 20/1 loaded over 30 grains of 5744 for about 1450 fps.

[Bass Ackward]

If ya can’t win FAIR in life, …. CHEAT! Since it’s all in the launch, the bigger the bore, the more wind you catch. And each caliber and gun in that diameter is different. To keep your sanity and save on time / components, the first thing to ALWAYS check is your mix. Why? Cause we all hear of the guy who gets 3000 fps outta pure, but …. he (the gun) is definitely the exception and the mix will fail LONG before leading occurs. And the best way to do that is to randomly pick a load and start at 25 yards. I don’t care if you shoot 5” groups. Then move out to 50. Is it linear? (10”). If yes move out to 100. Should be @ 20”. You can play this game as far out as you want to shoot, with any gun, handgun or rifle, in any caliber. If it’s linear, it’s either gun, load or bullet. If you have lost linearity anywhere along the line, then you can add more tin or harden the mix. Once you are as hard as you can or want to go, changes have to be made in altering the load down or bullet design, OR the gun. Remember, each diameter has an …. “easiest velocity” level to obtain accuracy. The highest is 22 down to 45 cal at @ 1100 fps. (the sound barrier). PB lower than jacketed because the check is harder and holds the nose into the wind at the launch. Everything you do. Every step you take. It’s ALL about the launch to avoid yaw.

[35 Whelen]

It's a fairly well known fact that MicroGroove rifling consists of many very small lands which a cast bullet, that is too soft or is driven too fast, cannot "grab". The general guidance for cast bullets with MicroGroove rifling is hard bullets at about 1600 fps or less.
I tried cast in my old 1895 Marlin and finally gave up.

35W

[Nobade]

If I want to shoot plain base bullets that fast out of a 45-70, I have to paper patch them to get any kind of decent accuracy. Do you really need that kind of power? If so, paper patch and nearly pure lead is the easy answer. If not, then back way off to maybe 1200-1400 fps and see if it doesn't work better.

As for tight spots, my own 1895CB had plenty of that. I firelapped it a bit and I could use the bore scope to see the dovetails and roll marks inside the bore where it wore the blue off. Pretty funny, and it did shoot a lot better afterward.

[RickinTN]

If you're going to use a binary alloy the 20:1 is what I would use. A gas check bullet would really help also. I have a mold from Tom at Accuratemolds.com which weighs approximately 365 grains. It is a gas check design and has what I call his "marlin nose". It works quite well in function and accuracy.
Good Luck,
Rick

[pietro]

.

I would also suggest a sanity check of the rifling @ the muzzle for wear/damage.

[beemer]

I loose interest with a 420 grain bullet at anything over 1300 fps or so. The 1895 is not a heavy rifle. My favorite bullet is the Lee 340 powder coated and sized .460. Try backing off the load especially with the plain base bullet. Try the above mentioned 12-12.5 Unique, can't hurt anything.

It occurred to me that you might slug just ahead of the chamber and and again at the muzzle. When you drive a slug through it only shows the smallest diameter.

[Bird]

RG1911,
You need a gas checked boolit with that much rl7 powder. You are pushing towards 2,000 fps with your top loads. Clean the leading from your barrel, and use a load that gives you 1200 to 1300 fps for plain based boolits.

[JimB..]

I like good old fashion IMR3031. Start at 10-15% below max, plain base is fine, and soften that alloy a bit or size it down another .001.

This assumes no damage at the muzzle, no extreme constriction where the barrel threads into the receiver, and a trustworthy optic well mounted.

[FergusonTO35]

I had a beautiful 1972 that was never more than minute of deer at 50 yards with boolits. It had very thin micro-groove rifling and I suspect it was a bit overbore. It was an honest 98% gun purchased from an estate, and I decided a cheaper and more boolit friendly rifle would be a better choice. I ended up selling the 1895 to a collector for twice what I had in it. Currently have a Henry single shot and love it.

[farmbif]

45-70 has become a very popular caliber once again fairly recently.there are more than ever casting for them. two things I might suggest, put a call out to fellow casters for samples of different bullet weights and styles and see if maybe a different bullet might help in the accuracy department. second have you tried removing any stress from the barrel by loosening the barrel bands and maybe even removing the front stock and be sure there is a good channel that does not press on the barrel. in doing this to see if it might improve accuracy its a balancing act as a lose magazine tube might cause feed problems and be sure the screws in the receiver are not loose.

[Bent Ramrod]

M. L. McPherson’s Accurizing the Factory Rifle has a lot of tips on bedding, relieving, stock-bolt installation and other methods of correcting accuracy problems in lever-action, two-piece stock rifles, including the Marlins. A read through that might give you some ideas on corrective measures.

[rockrat]

You might get by with your alloy and a non gas checked boolit if you powder coat it first before you size/lube it. I know there are those that will holler that you don't need lube with a PC boolit, but in my 35 Whelens, the PC/lubed boolit shot substancially better. You could try it both ways and see if it makes a difference. Also, you might water cooled boolits to harden them. I drop them straight out of the mould into a small bucket 2/3 rds full of cool water.

[Electrod47]

Just a little aside....I took my newly acquired 1895 Cowboy in 45/70 to the range late fall 2006 to see where "she's hitin'" iron sights. Since hunting season would be starting shortly in Texas and my shared lease was in Coleman TX...I was in a hurry and wanted a hog or 2 to go with a deer. This new fangled Hornady Lever Evolution 45/70 caught my eye for some reason, so I bought several boxes. Seated at the bench at Alpine Gun Range's 50 yard target to start I put 60 rounds down range and could not even group 12 inches!!!!!...I still wear a dark brown blotch on my right shoulder that never did clear up. The surface of the skin there is still rough 16 years later. I came away with such a flinch the gun was useless to me from then on, so it got traded. I still shoot 45/70's...single shots with heavy padded stocks. To end the story, taking the gun home that day I finally did the most simple thing and felt the front sight...It was loose and was bouncing back and forth during recoil.

[RG1911]

Thank you all for your considered recommendations.

The first thing I'll do is back off the velocity with 12 grains of Unique. My inventory sheet says I have some.

I agree with all the recommendations to go with a gas check boolit. My reasons for not starting with one are: when I ordered the mold, gas checks often were hard to find, and when you did, the price caused heart palpitations, and; I use a Star sizer/lubricator and many moons ago when I tried a gas check boolit for a .357, the checks just fell off. (This was 50+ years ago when I was using wheel weights, which were a pretty good alloy back then, but that did not completely fill the mold. The base, then, was undersize enough that the checks couldn't hold.)

I guess that if at some time I wanted a load to stop a bear, I'll just have to use jacketed -- tolerable accuracy at shorter range.

And I'll slug the bore again to look for tight spots.

Cheers, Richard

[RG1911]

M. L. McPherson’s Accurizing the Factory Rifle has a lot of tips on bedding, relieving, stock-bolt installation and other methods of correcting accuracy problems in lever-action, two-piece stock rifles, including the Marlins. A read through that might give you some ideas on corrective measures.

Thank you. I have that book and will reread the information about 2-piece stocks.

Richard

[RG1911]

To end the story, taking the gun home that day I finally did the most simple thing and felt the front sight...It was loose and was bouncing back and forth during recoil.

I did that with a scope mount. Embarrassing.

Richard

[beltfed]

RG1911,
Re. your "50 year ago experience with wheel weights"
. hat fill out tproblem could have easily been
solved with addition of as little as 1% tin . Also, then perhaps a slightly higher casting temperature
beltfed/arnie

[longbow]

Back to your post #11... I guess you were asking me about the rod I used for lapping. No, not threaded rod, I used 5/16" plain steel cold rolled rod with one end turned down to 1/4" then that threaded. The bullet drilled through in my lathe then pushed onto the threaded end and a nut to hold it in place.

I also used a muzzle protector to keep the rod from rubbing on the bore while lapping.

I was worried about lapping a microgroove barrel but it worked well and I focussed on the tight spots then made a few full length strokes. The bore looked good after and accuracy much improved and with virtually no leading unlike prior.

Hahaha! Also as per Electrod47's post #26 I had the same thing happen with my 1894 except that the sight came loose at the range while I was shooting then came off and hit me in the forhead during recoil. The slamming back and forth damaged the threads so I wound up soldering the front sight to the barrel! No local gunsmiths to retap the barrel to the next larger screw size.

Make me wonder why I like Marlins! Or my Marlin anyway, but oddly I do.

Longbow

[Tazman1602]

Rick,

Thank you. I'll have to buy a few pounds of a softer alloy. Do you have a suggestion? (eg: 1:20, 1:40)

Richard

Try 30-1 from Rotometals, Steve Brooks turned me on to this. A couple of my 1895 45-70’s slug right at what yours is, I cast at .462 then lube and size at .461, I also use 4198 and get fantastic accuracy —- are you sure it’s micro-groove? Mine are Ballard rifling and cast works fine, also micro groove will shoot cast fine but I can’t remember how you have to go about that….

[pipehand]

I have a JM ballard rifled Guide gun that is very accurate. I fire lapped the barrel with the LBT paste, so maybe any dovetail issues were removed. I size a 425 grain group buy plainbase to .4605 and use 25.3 grains of 2400. It wears an XS leverrail and the XS ghostring sights. I polished up the trigger mating surfaces a little. One of the things that makes it easier to shoot more accurately is not trying to turn a 7.5 pound carbine into an elephant gun. 1330fps is a lot easier to shoot without getting flinchy than an equal weight boolit going 500 fps faster.

[Elmer Fudd]

Well, it's been a hot minute since the OP posted and I'm dying to know what has become of this errant Marlin. As a fellow Wyomingite, I have personal interest in this matter.

I am at the other end of the state (Powell), but I do have several 45/70 moulds, sizing dies and a few different alloys to fiddle with. Also have a bore scope, lapping compound and a chronograph. Richard, if you make it to Powell, look me up (PM here before) and I will do anything I can to sort this out with you.

[MT Gianni]

Your best options are around 12 bhn or 17-19 bhn.

[JFE]

This article is worth reading:

http://www.lasc.us/fryxellmarlin-microgroove.htm

I have two Marlins, one is a 45/70 and the other a 35 Rem. Both have microgroove barrels and both are very accurate with cast bullets.

My 45/70 slugs 0.4585” and the microgroove rifling is very shallow. My most accurate mould drops pills that only measure 0.459”, yet these bullets (which are GC-ed) will basically enlarge the same hole.

The 35 Rem is similar. I tend to not run low velocity loads in both of these rifles as I have a 44 and 357 that are better suited to lighter loads.

As pointed out by several posters, the load you’ve used is too fast for a non-GC bullet. Try throttling it back to the 1200-1400fps range.

Don’t give up on developing loads with heavier cast pills. They can and do work.

[rintinglen]

RL-7 did not work well for me in the 45-70 in my Marlin CB. I had much better results with 2400 and 3031, and 10 grains of Red Dot was a nice plinker.

[Noah Zark]

I've diagnosed levergun accuracy problems several times in the past 40+ years when there's been no obvious problem by stripping away the barrel bands, tubular magazine, forearm, etc., and effectively making them single shots, and test firing from resting on range bags to get an indication on their "intrinsic accuracy". That helped sort out particular handloads as being better or worse for accuracy, without interference from all the barrel vibration-influencing of the missing " up front bits".

Once a load or two were proven, then a given rifle was reassembled, but carefully paying attention to keeping the mag tube at 6:00 bottom dead center, or doing what I had to in order for it to be there. Too often, when viewed from the muzzle, levergun magazines are "clocked" to one side or another and that can/will affect accuracy. Sometimes clearance had to be opened up for the rear band screw if the rifle had a carbine band; same for the front band screw between the barrel and mag tube. Sometimes the ID of the front band would need opening up around the mag tube to eliminate binding. Often I'd not tighten the screws but only just snug and relying on a bit of blue Locktite to keep them fast.

One of the bigger culprits was the screw in the mag endcap whose end bears in a drilled recess in the underside of the barrel. The screw tip must be in that recess to keep the mag tube from walking forward under recoil, but on some guns from the factory that screw when tight really bears on the underside of the barrel, affecting harmonics somehow and usually not in a good way. On some guns I would relieve how the screw tip would bear on the barrel recess by slightly enlarging the recess, or minutely shortening the screw tip. The screw tip MUST project into the barrel recess to to keep the mag tube in place, but it doesn't have to bear hard on the recess.

When done and reassembled, with fewer interference forces and a mag tube at BDC, groups were 1/2 or 1/3 what they started out being before firing as a single shot with nothing but the barrel. With the gun fully "dressed" again, the grouping of the most accurate handload would open up some, but it was a respectable group, not a pattern. My biggest challenge was an 1894 Big Bore 375; it patterned before and held 2.0 to 2.25" groups fired offhand with a given 250 gr GC bullet over IMR3031 handload. YMMV.

Noah

[FergusonTO35]

Thank you all for your considered recommendations.

The first thing I'll do is back off the velocity with 12 grains of Unique. My inventory sheet says I have some.

I agree with all the recommendations to go with a gas check boolit. My reasons for not starting with one are: when I ordered the mold, gas checks often were hard to find, and when you did, the price caused heart palpitations, and; I use a Star sizer/lubricator and many moons ago when I tried a gas check boolit for a .357, the checks just fell off. (This was 50+ years ago when I was using wheel weights, which were a pretty good alloy back then, but that did not completely fill the mold. The base, then, was undersize enough that the checks couldn't hold.)

I guess that if at some time I wanted a load to stop a bear, I'll just have to use jacketed -- tolerable accuracy at shorter range.

And I'll slug the bore again to look for tight spots.

Cheers, Richard

My Henry loves 12-13 grains Unique under the Lyman 292 and pretty much every other boolit I've tried. If that charge plus a properly fitting boolit doesn't shoot well then you have problems other than ammo.

[john.k]

Ive had a Marlin 95 since 1978 ,and one problem was light primer strike ....so I use LP primers..............accuracy has always been OK for me ,about 6" at 100 yds using an Lyman sight ..........however ,one thing I noticed with recovered bullets was the rifling grooves were close to stripped ,any more velocity ,and I suspect they would strip ..........however a harder alloy would likely cure this

[MGySgt]

There is one problem with the 1895 that I have fixed on mine. The screw at the end of the magazine tube was actually warping the tube there by putting downward pressure on the barrel.
I took a steel washer and thinned it down so it would just fit in the place at the end of the magazine tube. This relieved the pressure on the barrel and my groups shrunk to sub MOA at 100.
check your pressure at there.
By the way my 430 gr FP may by Mountain Molds is a verry stout load.

[Wally]

I have a 1978 Marlin 1894C .357 Mag Carbine. I had trouble finding an accurate cast load as the gun is finicky with cast bullets. My goal was a load that would hit a 2.5” wide object at 150 yards consistently. 2 years ago I succeeded. I used a Lee 158 RNF bullet that casts out at .360” sized to .359”---the load is 6.0 of Universal in a .357 Magnum case. Obviously it is best to shoot on a calm day as the BC of the bullet and lower velocity will be adversely affected by any substantial wind.