12ga vs. 20ga recoil--why the difference?

[John in WI]

I'm curious why a 20ga is reported to have lower recoil than a 12ga. In some of the forums, it seems that even a 20 and 12 of the same model place the 20ga having up to 40% less recoil.

This has always seemed strange to me--I thought the recoil was just the result of an "equal and opposite reaction". If I'm firing say, a 1ounce load of shot, out to lets say 1100fps, they should really produce exactly the same recoil (probably more for the 20ga, because it would probably be lighter).

Can anyone clear that debate up? It just doesn't make a lot of intuitive sense why there should be a difference--same weight projectile fired at the same velocity, should produce the same recoil (all other things equal--weight of the weapon...)

[Der Gebirgsjager]

I'm afraid that I'm not a deeply scientific person, and maybe you need one to answer this question. First, though, have you ever actually fired both a 12 Ga. and a 20 Ga. from the same model shotgun--let's say a Remington 870? There is a marked difference. There was something in Physics class about an action getting an equal reaction, and the 12 Ga. is larger, containing more powder, larger wad--and even if the shot load is the same, like 1 oz., there's more going out the front and recoiling to the rear. Anyway, that's what my shoulder tells me......

DG

[Hannibal]

I've an H&R Topper in 20 gauge full choke that will flat light you up with #6 shot high brass.

Plastic butt plate and *might* weigh 6lbs.

[Mk42gunner]

My wag is that the reason for less recoil in 20 gauge is that there is usually less powder, and maybe slower burning powder at that.

It is kind of difficult to directly compare 12 and 20 guage guns, because the 20 often has a smaller frame even though the model name may be exactly the same. Unless we are talking the cheaper single shots of yesterday.

Robert

[garandsrus]

A 12 ga certainly recoils more than a 20 ga. The biggest reason is that a 20ga target load is 7/8 oz of shot while a 12ga is 1 1/8oz. That’s 28% more shot in the 12ga. The velocity of both is about the same so more powder is needed in the 12ga. A typical powder weight in 20ga is 14gr. 12ga is about 20. That’s about 40% more powder.

The combination of more shot and more powder gives more recoil. The max 20ga load is about 1 3/8oz while the max 12ga load is close to 2oz of shot. Quite a difference. 2oz 12ga turkey loads are not fun to shoot! There is a huge difference when shooting slugs also.

If both shotguns were the same weight and used the same shot charge weight at the same velocity, the recoil would be the same.

[Milky Duck]

nope..given same payload same gun weight and same velocity the 20ga will recoil MORE....TIGHTER BARREL =more pressure..wont be much in it.
but reason 20ga often said to be lesser recoil is the lesser payload
biggest mistake MANY Dads have made is buying a light single barrel 20ga for jnr to shoot then feeding it 3" magnum shells throwing a 12ga payload of over an ounce.... same gun with less than oz in 2 3/4' shell at moderate velocity is a whole different ballgame.
its the reason I laugh when folks say a 28ga is better than .410 when both chuck 3/4oz at same velocity.... the end result is the same on both ends.... 28ga could have slightly less recoil for reason given above and COULD pattern better as less stress on shot through slightly bigger hole on barrel..but nothing in it in either case if you do homework on pattern board.


lol said same as above poster before reading his post...doah.

[John in WI]

I think that was my question--I realize 20ga loads can really be light (I have some reloading data for 5/8 ounce loads--not tried them, but I assume they are very light on the shoulder). But I was talking specifically about firing the same projectile weight to the same velocity. An ounce at 1100fps is an ounce at 1100fps, regardless of the diameter of the projectile.

I haven't taken my break actions out (I have a 20 and 12 that are similar--imports with toy-like black plastic stocks) to test and see what difference is. I think I'm wondering if they ACTUALLY have noticably different recoil. Or if I got the 20ga because I read it was lighter recoil, and because I believe it has lighter recoil, I actually perceive less.

[dverna]

Recoil is not caused by pressure...that is a common misconception.

These are the factors that affect recoil:
Weight of shot and wad...mostly shot as wads are very light anyway.
Velocity of the load...higher velocity will increase velocity
Amount of powder....more powder adds to ejecta (like the shot and wad beign ejected)...but it is a minor contributor
And lastly weight of the gun.

There will be no discernable difference in a 1 oz load at 1200 fps out of a 12 ga or 20 ga gun of the same weight.

If you want to play around with numbers:

https://gunpros.com/recoil-calculator-charts/

[besk]

Recoil is not caused by pressure...that is a common misconception.

These are the factors that affect recoil:
Weight of shot and wad...mostly shot as wads are very light anyway.
Velocity of the load...higher velocity will increase velocity
Amount of powder....more powder adds to ejecta (like the shot and wad beign ejected)...but it is a minor contributor
And lastly weight of the gun.

There will be no discernable difference in a 1 oz load at 1200 fps out of a 12 ga or 20 ga gun of the same weight.

If you want to play around with numbers:

https://gunpros.com/recoil-calculator-charts/

Try shooting a 3/4oz load from my 3lb 7 oz 410 and you will realize the weight of the gun has a lot to do with recoil.

[Half Dog]

I have successful loads for my 12 gauge using 1, 7/8, & 3/4 oz loads. I currently shoot 7/8 oz loads using 15 grains of powder and I haven’t had any need to complain about recoil. The 3/4 oz loads get pushed a little faster but I don’t see an issue with recoil there too.

[kungfustyle]

It's the weight. A 12 gauge weighs more than a 20 gauge. For every pound you take off about 25% of recoil. I still think a 20 kicks but not as bad as a 16 gauge. Lighter and faster gun shooting a smaller charge = the same recoil as a heaver gun shooting a stouter charge. Shoot a 7/8 oz load at 1500 fps out of a 20 and a 1 1/8 oz load at the same speed out of a 12 and both sting. Reduce it down to 1200 fps and you will see both are manageable. Shoot a 1oz shot load at 1200 fps out of a 12 and its like a kitten.

[ulav8r]

Recoil is not caused by pressure...that is a common misconception.

These are the factors that affect recoil:
Weight of shot and wad...mostly shot as wads are very light anyway.
Velocity of the load...higher velocity will increase velocity
Amount of powder....more powder adds to ejecta (like the shot and wad beign ejected)...but it is a minor contributor
And lastly weight of the gun.

There will be no discernable difference in a 1 oz load at 1200 fps out of a 12 ga or 20 ga gun of the same weight.

If you want to play around with numbers:

https://gunpros.com/recoil-calculator-charts/

Physics says this is the correct answer.

Besk, the enlarged section covers your statement.

[MostlyLeverGuns]

dverna has it right, gun weight can be a consideration and MOST 20 ga shotshells are loaded with less shot than MOST 12 ga. A light twenty can actually kick harder than a heavy twelve depending on shell selection.

[dtknowles]

Lighter gun kicks harder, heavier load kicks harder, gauge is less important than the weight of the gun and the power of the load.
Tim

[Milky Duck]

Try shooting a 3/4oz load from my 3lb 7 oz 410 and you will realize the weight of the gun has a lot to do with recoil.

thats what I was getting at about Dads buying a light 20ga for jnr and feeding it magnum shells...

[upnorthwis]

I shoot 7/8 oz. out of both a 12 and 20 gage semi-auto. Would be hard pressed to find a difference in their recoil.

[turtlezx]

think the shape of the stock also effects recoil

[Patrick L]

The answer is a bona fide maybe. Or as they say, you are certainly entitled to your own opinion, you are NOT entitled to your own facts.

Recoil certainly is a product of what is going out vs. what is getting shovedback. Alter one or both one way or another, you will alter recoil. So, it is entirely possible for a 12 gauge to kick more than a 20 gauge. But things can be altered so the opposite is true. Shoot a 3/4 oz light target load at 1050 fps out of an 8 lb. 12 gauge. Shoot a full 1 oz field load at 1290 fps out of a 6 lb 20 gauge, and then talk to me about the respective recoil!

[Electrod47]

Shotgun gauges weren't created to differentiate recoil. Each was designed for the particular game to be hunted and the terrain and distance to be engaged. If comfort is the goal.....Well, what can anybody say.

[ulav8r]

The shape of the stock will not affect the recoil, but it can greatly affect the PERCIEVED recoil. A badly shaped stock will affect the muzzle rise and can cause the comb to hit the cheek harder so that the same amount of recoil will feel greater. Also, the resistance provided provided by the shooter's weight and stance can affect the perceived recoil.

[pipehand]

I have one of the Yldis folding 410s that Academy sold about a dozen years ago fo a little over a c-note. It is an absolute whisp of a thing at 3.3pounds. Its perceived recoil is much higher than my 12 gauge 870. Even though it is just a little .410. I also have a 20 gauge youth model 870, with stock spacers to bring it to my preferred l.o.p., and although it it lighter than my 12 gauges, the ammo I use in it makes it seem like a light kicker in comparison. Weight of gun, weight of payload, speed of payload.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Come on guys,,, Did none of you pay attention in school?

Newtons Law says "for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction."

The 20 ga. has a lighter payload than a 12 ga. all else being equal, the 12 ga. has to recoil more. Simple as that.

Any other conclusion is strictly Subjective and not based on Empirical Fact.

This ain't that hard?

Randy

[GrizzLeeBear]

Here is a good tool for figuring shotgun recoil http://www.omahamarian.org/trap/shotshellenergy.html

Payload, velocity and gun weight are the major factors in recoil. Gun fit, especially drop at heel and cheek rest height do greatly affect perceived recoil.

[Patrick L]

Hey Randy, I routinely load 3/4 oz in the 12 gauge ( as well as 16, 20, and 28 gauge.) Just because it's a 12 don't assume payload is heavier.

So your "facts" are not as empirical as you think.

[M-Tecs]

Burn rate of the powder also affects felt recoil. The powder mass also has to be calculated into actual and felt recoil.

[John in WI]

I have a Rossi that weighs virtually nothing. Just a barrel and hollow plastic. I'm with you--it is not a lot of fun to shoot! I like it because A) it was under $100, and B) it breaks and stores very small. Good BoB/trunk gun.

[Kestrel4k]

My father started me on a 20ga, 3" Magnum Rem 870, /but/ it was one of the older 20ga 870's that Rem built on a true 12ga frame - so did me very well with heavy duck loads back in the day.

I'm still pretty proud of it; have taken more game animals with that gun than all others I have ever used combined.

330918 330919

When I got into upland game hunting /much/ later, I had a slimline interchangeable choke system installed;
330920

[Mk42gunner]

The shape of the stock will not affect the recoil, but it can greatly affect the PERCIEVED recoil. A badly shaped stock will affect the muzzle rise and can cause the comb to hit the cheek harder so that the same amount of recoil will feel greater. Also, the resistance provided provided by the shooter's weight and stance can affect the perceived recoil.
This is true. Once upon a time, I owned a Brazilian made single shot 12 Ga, F.I.E. IIRC. That gun's recoil was nasty, even with light field loads. A few (very few) 1 1/2 oz 2 3/4" Magnums made you want some sort of pain killer.

It was the hardest recoiling shotgun I ever shot, until I got a 3 1/2" chambered 12 Ga H&R National Wild Turkey Federation gun.

Robert

[Patrick L]

Hey a zombie thread back from the dead!!!

Kestrel4k that is a beautiful 870. I have a very similar one, also one of the old standard weight 20s, also a gift from my dad! (Christmas '81 if my memory is functioning correctly.) Mine is not a 3" magnum, for my hunting a 2 3/4" sufficed. I too have killed a truckload of rabbits, pheasant, and partridge with it.

[rfesk]

I have one of the Yldis folding 410s that Academy sold about a dozen years ago fo a little over a c-note. It is an absolute whisp of a thing at 3.3pounds. Its perceived recoil is much higher than my 12 gauge 870. Even though it is just a little .410. I also have a 20 gauge youth model 870, with stock spacers to bring it to my preferred l.o.p., and although it it lighter than my 12 gauges, the ammo I use in it makes it seem like a light kicker in comparison. Weight of gun, weight of payload, speed of payload.

I have a Yildiz folding 410 with a cut off barrel- even lighter.
My (all-knowing) brother insisted on saying that 410's don't kick until I let him try mine with a 3" 3/4 oz load!

[TNsailorman]

A 410 with 3" shells can get your attention in a hurry. Dad and I tried an experiment with a 2 3/4" 12 gauge Iver Johnson single barrel with #6 shot and a 3" 410 Stevens single barrel with #6 shot. We shot metal lids from grease buckets at about 30 yards. The 12 put far more shot in the lid but none of them penetrated the lid. The 410 did not put very many shot in the lid but several of them penetrated the lid. Opened our eyes a little bit. The 3" 410 hits hard but it just does not have as many pellets in the load. my .02 experience anyway, james

[HWooldridge]

A 410 with 3" shells can get your attention in a hurry. Dad and I tried an experiment with a 2 3/4" 12 gauge Iver Johnson single barrel with #6 shot and a 3" 410 Stevens single barrel with #6 shot. We shot metal lids from grease buckets at about 30 yards. The 12 put far more shot in the lid but none of them penetrated the lid. The 410 did not put very many shot in the lid but several of them penetrated the lid. Opened our eyes a little bit. The 3" 410 hits hard but it just does not have as many pellets in the load. my .02 experience anyway, james

Funny that you mention this. I have an old Stevens bolt action .410 with full choke and it probably has one of the highest body counts of all our guns - 3” #6 shells will kill any small game, DRT…in fact, I shot two skunks yesterday, a few hours apart and both just died in their tracks. Nothing runs - they just roll over and done. Also have a Remington 11 in 20 gauge with a full choke that’s similar; it seems to kill out of proportion to size.

Worst recoil I ever experienced was a Bernadelli 12 ga double - it weighed 6-3/4 lb and would leave bruises, even with field loads. I had to reload with 7/8 oz light loads to keep from leaving blood and body parts all over South Texas.

[TNsailorman]

I was at the club Thursday night team trap league shoot back in the early 80's and one of the opposing team shooters showed up with an old Lefever 12 gauge trap grade side by side he had just bought. When it came time for his team to shoot the 16 yard line, he put on his padded vest and grabbed his LeFever and hit the line. He shot one station and got to the second station and fired 3 times and held up his hand and informed the scorer and puller he was withdrawing. He took his LeFever and his vest to the car and came and sat down on the bench with our team. One of the other team older shooters walked up and said "let me see your shoulder" . The guy pulled back his shirt and his shoulder was really red. The older shooter then told him, you had better go home and put ice on that shoulder because you are going to have one black shoulder in the morning if you don't. When he came back to the shoot the next week he had a brand new Remington 1100 trap grade and he shot that shotgun for years afterwards. I don't what he did with the LeFever but it had a really excessive to me drop on the buttstock. james

[JSnover]

The physics of this includes one more factor: Bore diameter. 12 gauge is about 15% larger, providing a greater working surface (in the case of a circular bore, I think that's almost a 30% increase, though my geometry isn't what it used to be).
If you had two identical shotguns of equal weight and barrel length, loaded to the same chamber pressure, the 12 would kick harder because the 'piston' inside the 'cylinder' can apply a greater force to the buttstock, because it has a larger working surface.

[popper]

Try a 5# 1920s single shot 12Ga full choke made for paper shells - shooting plastic cases! 3 shots and I gave it to BIL for a wall hanger.

[Kestrel4k]

[...] Kestrel4k that is a beautiful 870. I have a very similar one, also one of the old standard weight 20s, also a gift from my dad! (Christmas '81 if my memory is functioning correctly.) Mine is not a 3" magnum, for my hunting a 2 3/4" sufficed. I too have killed a truckload of rabbits, pheasant, and partridge with it.
Thanks, that one a gift from my father when I started waterfowl hunting - got pretty good with 3"mag 20ga lead handloads in my mid- to late teens.
My records indicate 1979-manufacture, with a November 1980 purchase date. They certainly made them good back then. :-)

I did put a couple 20ga on the postal scale out of curiosity; my heavy-frame 870 is 6.7lbs, while my new ATI "Nomad" folding single-shot 20ga (plastic stock) is only 4.7 lbs.
3" chamber on the folding 20ga, but no thank you; bought it for car travel, 18" bbl & folds in half makes it very compact indeed.
With a purchase price of only $108 shipped, can deal with the loss if something ever happens to it.

[jonp]

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