SWC with no crimp groove

[Arkansas Paul]

Hey everyone.
I want to see if I'm thinking correctly on something.
I have a 4 cavity Lyman 358271 mold. It drops 150 grain bullets with 2 lube grooves, but no crimp groove.
I've been loading them for target loads in .38 Special.
I've been hesitant to try them in .357 magnum due to the lack of a crimp groove.
Has anyone tried them in the magnum? Am I thinking correctly that I need a crimp groove for it, and to leave this bullet for the .38 Special?

Here's a pic of the bullets.

https://i.imgur.com/UbJyKhT.jpg?4

[Green Frog]

Just a thought, but I think I would try a very heavy taper crimp with the case mouth even with the top of the upper driving band. Otherwise, crimping in the top lube groove is your other option if that doesn’t result in excess COAL. The lower groove should carry all the lube you really need.
Froggie

[Recycled bullet]

Do you powder coat? I think that if you apply powder coat to the bullets you could crimp them anywhere that you like that still allows the cylinder to rotate and you could probably be fine up to pressure maximum for the gun.

[MT Gianni]

Are you shooting them out of a 2" lightweight gun or a 7 5/8 Blackhawk? I think they will probably move with recoil but am not sure. Check the older Lyman handbooks on line for OAL. They might have you crimping in the second groove or maybe over the last one.

[Winger Ed.]

I'd set to the correct OAL, give it a gentle taper crimp to roll out the flare & give a little 'pinch', and try it.

Just don't shoot your eye out kid.:bigsmyl2:

[Arkansas Paul]

Are you shooting them out of a 2" lightweight gun or a 7 5/8 Blackhawk? I think they will probably move with recoil but am not sure. Check the older Lyman handbooks on line for OAL. They might have you crimping in the second groove or maybe over the last one.

It's a 6.5" Blackhawk.
Moving with recoil is the issue I'm concerned with.
I have other molds, but not another SWC mold.

[45DUDE]

Just roll crimp over the front band. I do 9mm the same way in 38-357. If too short back off on the powder. There is not much information on that mold. Looks like it would work in a leaver gun or a S&W 38 if it drops .360.

[Recycled bullet]

Can you please show a picture of your 38's with that bullet? Blackhawk is heavy enough to significantly resist bullets jumping crimp from recoil walking them out. I light or moderate crimp into the tiny crimp groove in my powder coated 155 grain plain base mp-hammer bullets and they don't jump crimp in my 6.5" black hawk loaded with 16.5 grains of WW296/H110 in 357 magnum starline brass.

[mehavey]

Just roll* the (heavy) crimp into the top grease groove/cover the grease
`Do it all the time. . . .

*BWIW: no taper crimp is going to hold in a heavy-projectile/heavy-recoiling revolver

[Arkansas Paul]

Can you please show a picture of your 38's with that bullet?

I actually don't have any loaded up at the moment. I went through what I had this past Saturday.
I'm planning on getting the pot fired up this weekend and get some more loaded up.

[jdgabbard]

When I load a bullet for the 38/357 that doesn’t have a crimp groove I just crimp into the side of the boolit heavily enough to hold it. Sometimes, depending on the bullet design you can crimp over the top band.

But, you could always just measure the bullet from the top lube groove to the meplat, and add that number to your case length to get an OAL. Measure your cylinder and see if you have room. It’s not rocket science.

[Bazoo]

A Lee factory crimp into the top driving band is another option. I'd probably just crimp over the top driving band though.

[gwpercle]

I have a NOE 9mm Luger mould 360-124-TC GC .
They drop @.358" dia perfect for 38 special and 357 magnum ...but with no crimp groove .
I use my 9mm Luger taper crimp die to put a taper crimp on the 38/357 loads ... on the top driving band .
and it works just fine . A secure taper crimp holds the boolits in the 357 magnum loads with no creep .
If you don't have a Lee FCD ... try using your 9mm Luger taper crimp die .
The Taper Crimp will work on 38 special , 38 spcl +P and 357 magnum loads
That #358271 is one strange looking boolit ... I wonder what it was originally intended for ... ???
Gary

[MT Gianni]

Personal opinion is that in a blackhawk a medium chrimp in the top lube groove will hold most loads. If you start pushing them hard with slow pistol powders I would get one of the following in rank of personal preference: NOE 160 rf, Lyman 358429, RCBS 150 K, Lyman 358477, Ly 358156. The last one is a great mold but adds the cost of checks.

At the cost of primers and powders you cannot afford to not have a mold that matches what you want your gun to do. If you look at those profiles, you should find something similar from a good manufacturer.

[Arkansas Paul]

That #358271 is one strange looking boolit ... I wonder what it was originally intended for ... ???
Gary


Here is an excerpt from an article written by Glenn Fryxell. No clue who he is, but wanted to give credit where it's due.

"The concept of designing bullets specifically for target shooting took hold and a flurry of activity followed over the next several years. The first of these bullets that a modern-day shooter would recognize as a semi-wadcutter, would be the Ideal 358271 designed by B. F. Wilder in the 1903-1904 timeframe. This 150 grain .38 caliber target bullet had 2 lube grooves, a wadcutting shoulder, a radiused ogive, leading to a flat meplat; a familiar combination to shooters today, but a novel development for the day."

[stubshaft]

Just crimp over the shoulder.

[gwpercle]

Here is an excerpt from an article written by Glenn Fryxell. No clue who he is, but wanted to give credit where it's due.

"The concept of designing bullets specifically for target shooting took hold and a flurry of activity followed over the next several years. The first of these bullets that a modern-day shooter would recognize as a semi-wadcutter, would be the Ideal 358271 designed by B. F. Wilder in the 1903-1904 timeframe. This 150 grain .38 caliber target bullet had 2 lube grooves, a wadcutting shoulder, a radiused ogive, leading to a flat meplat; a familiar combination to shooters today, but a novel development for the day."

:goodpost:
Thanks ... Glenn Fryxell ... "From Ingot to Target : A Cast Bullet Guide for Handgunners " I have most of this printed out and should have refered to it ...
Just about everything you want to know about cast boolits is in this publication !

I realy need to print the complete work and read it again !

Gary

[Bazoo]

The Ideal360271 (https://bulletmatch.com/bullets/ideal-360271) is a pretty interesting bullet. I wonder how they do, accuracy wise? Has anyone done much work with one?

https://i.postimg.cc/y65W3b6Z/ideal-360271-s-639.jpg (https://bulletmatch.com/bullets/ideal-360271)

[rockshooter]

another option is to find one of the Lee "collet-type" crimp dies in .357- you can crimp them anywhere.
Loren

[Dusty Bannister]

I agree with post #9 because the front driving band is going to take a lot of abuse as it travels down the throat and transitions into the forcing cone. If this is truly meant for target work, you might not like the result in squeezing or pinching the part of the bullet that aligns with the barrel. I would suggest just roll the case mouth into the lube groove (if cartridge OAL will still clear the front of the cylinder) and seat deep enough to reduce the gap covering the lube groove. This is my method for the Lee 356-120-TC (conventional lube).

[Hickok]

another option is to find one of the Lee "collet-type" crimp dies in .357- you can crimp them anywhere.
LorenWorks for me!

I can use the Lee collet crimper on .44 magnum loads in a lever-action rifle and crimp boolits on front driving band of a SWC or anywhere on a RNFP to make them cycle in various different makes of lever rifles. Tested several times with completely loaded tube magazines and shot,....no boolit set-back or movement due recoil.

A reduction and work-up of powder charge is needed with a deeper seated boolit, just to be safe!

I also tested with a heavy roll crimp using Lyman dies, and no boolit set back or movement in my lever actions. Other people may have different experience.

Boolit set-back in lever actions IS different than recoil-induced boolit movement in revolvers, but proper neck tension and a good crimp into a cast-alloy boolit driving band should hold up.

I tend to think good neck tension holds the boolit better than the crimp on revolver boolit, but they both work together.

[Tall]

another option is to find one of the Lee "collet-type" crimp dies in .357- you can crimp them anywhere.
Loren

This is what I do. I use the OAL from my manual and crimp where it yields rounds with the correct OAL.

[Arkansas Paul]

I agree with post #9 because the front driving band is going to take a lot of abuse as it travels down the throat and transitions into the forcing cone. If this is truly meant for target work, you might not like the result in squeezing or pinching the part of the bullet that aligns with the barrel. I would suggest just roll the case mouth into the lube groove (if cartridge OAL will still clear the front of the cylinder) and seat deep enough to reduce the gap covering the lube groove. This is my method for the Lee 356-120-TC (conventional lube).

I loaded up a few rounds last night and went to the range with them this morning. I did just what you (and a few others) have suggested and crimped into the top grease groove. It was standard pressure .38 Special stuff so I didn't do a heavy crimp. They worked just fine and were plenty accurate out of a 6.5" Blackhawk.

These are just at 10 yards, as I was trying to find an accurate load, but I'm happy with the results.

https://i.imgur.com/Hz0CcxZ.jpg?2

https://i.imgur.com/veRaB7Y.jpg?1