Pitted barrels and cast vs jacketed

[Wolfdog91]

Curious what's eveyone experience in badly pitted barrels and lead bullets vs jacketed ?

[Hannibal]

I know you have another thread going but I'll chip in anyway.

If you're shooting 100 yards and the barrel is pitted it'll just mess with your mind. Cast or jacketed. Particularly if you look at 10 shot groups over multiple days. Consistently inconsistent.

[TurnipEaterDown]

Have a pretty pitted barrel on a Yugo 24-47 8x57 -- shoots cast fine. Very consistently too. 50/50 lube w/ some lithium grease added, and bullet ~ 20 BHN.
196 SAECO GC, 16 gr 2400, 10 gr BE, 22.5 SR4759, 25 gr Russian flake FSP749, all will do 5 shot sub 1.5 inch consistently, 10 shot ~ 2 inch, 50 shot 100 yd groups 4inch w/ 35 of those 50 at 2 inch. Have used WLP, F210, WLR, Fiocchi LPP as primers.

Only took the wood off the gun to make sure the action & barrel wasn't pitted or cut, and then just slapped back together.
I clean it every 500 - 700 rounds: when bolt rotation gets gummy from blowback lube & fouling.

It is my 100 yd offhand, 200 yd seated sticks/prone practice gun.

200 yd gong is clank clank clank...

[35 Rem]

I have an old Mauser 98 that has been sporterized. It is a shooters worst nightmare. Not only is it pitted, there are several loose spots in the bore. You can easily feel where they are by pushing a patch down the bore. It's the original factory barrel so it's a 8x57. By some minor miracle it shoots decent groups with Speer 170 grain jacketed. I can't even get it to hit a 2 foot x 3 foot box at 50 feet most of the time using cast. I've almost been tempted to hold my hand over the muzzle and pull the trigger to see if anything is even coming out when fired. :) To make it even more confounding, when it DOES hit the target it has NEVER keyholed a bullet as you would expect.

[jaysouth]

Here is an earlier article here on pitted barrels and pitted barrels. Somewhere there is an article by C.B. Harris about successfully shooting pitted barrels with cast bullets. The consensus is that the barrel be cleaned spotless.

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?50507-Cast-bullets-and-rusty-barrels

[gwpercle]

Try J-B Bore Compound cleaning ... with a stiff cleaning rod and brass bore brush .
Wrap the bore brush with 0000 steel wool , wet it with oil / clp and then smear / coat the steel wool with J-B Bore Compound ... and work the brush from one end to the other ... till your arms get so tired they fell like they are going to fall off ... when the brush / steel wool / J-B Compound cleaner gets loose ... add steel wool and J-B Compound . When you get wore out ... come back the next day and ... Repeat the process. 4 days of this and a model 95 Mauser 7X57 barrel that looked like a old Sewer Pipe ... cleaned up well enough to shoot J-Words .
I repeated the procedure with a new brass brush-steel wool and plenty of J-B Bore compound and the barrel polished and cleaned up well enough to shoot Cast Boolits.
It wasn't complicated ... just labor intensive ... but I had time and the elbow grease. The J-B bore compound is a cleaner and polisher, it took out all the old fouling and polished the pitting ... the bore still looks a little dark around the rifiling edges but is as smooth as a baby's behind .
Gary

[HWooldridge]

I had an old Marlin lever gun in 32-20 with a heavily pitted barrel. It would lead like crazy and groups turned into patterns when shooting lead bullets - but once cleaned out, it shot quite well with JSP slugs. Back in the late 70's, you could get factory loads in either configuration, so I had to start specifically shop for jacketed and walk away from the lead pills. I never reloaded for it then but since have picked up the dies and brass for another couple 32-20 guns (alas, the Marlin went down the road long ago).

[higgins]

I got a Teslong borescope a couple of years ago, and it was a real eye opener. All of the following are with jacketed bullets. A .243 that I would not have thought had any pits did have a few small ones; it has been consistently accurate both in group size and not changing zero since I bought it used in the late 60s. A Swedish Mauser that looked fresh out of rebuild when I bought it had a lot of small pits in the bore that does not seem to affect accuracy. My most accurate (with milsurp ammo) No.4 Lee Enfield it pitted with small pits end to end. An M39 Finnish Mosin that looks like the Enfield is accurate with milsurp ammo. I have not tried cast in any of these rifles.

Two of the three .30 cal. rifles that I shoot cast in have a few small pits but are accurate; one is unpitted. In my experience as long as the bore has very small pits or not too many medium-sized ones it should shoot cast or jacketed well.

[Hannibal]

I got a Teslong borescope a couple of years ago, and it was a real eye opener. All of the following are with jacketed bullets. A .243 that I would not have thought had any pits did have a few small ones; it has been consistently accurate both in group size and not changing zero since I bought it used in the late 60s. A Swedish Mauser that looked fresh out of rebuild when I bought it had a lot of small pits in the bore that does not seem to affect accuracy. My most accurate (with milsurp ammo) No.4 Lee Enfield it pitted with small pits end to end. An M39 Finnish Mosin that looks like the Enfield is accurate with milsurp ammo. I have not tried cast in any of these rifles.

Two of the three .30 cal. rifles that I shoot cast in have a few small pits but are accurate; one is unpitted. In my experience as long as the bore has very small pits or not too many medium-sized ones it should shoot cast or jacketed well.

The OP has a video posted in another thread. That barrel literally has sections of the lands missing and corrosion potholes instead. It's some of the worst corrosion pitting I've ever seen.

That won't buff out.

[dverna]

Have a pretty pitted barrel on a Yugo 24-47 8x57 -- shoots cast fine. Very consistently too. 50/50 lube w/ some lithium grease added, and bullet ~ 20 BHN.
196 SAECO GC, 16 gr 2400, 10 gr BE, 22.5 SR4759, 25 gr Russian flake FSP749, all will do 5 shot sub 1.5 inch consistently, 10 shot ~ 2 inch, 50 shot 100 yd groups 4inch w/ 35 of those 50 at 2 inch. Have used WLP, F210, WLR, Fiocchi LPP as primers.

Only took the wood off the gun to make sure the action & barrel wasn't pitted or cut, and then just slapped back together.
I clean it every 500 - 700 rounds: when bolt rotation gets gummy from blowback lube & fouling.

It is my 100 yd offhand, 200 yd seated sticks/prone practice gun.

200 yd gong is clank clank clank...

This an example of a meaningful post. Real numbers!

A 3 MOA lever action may define accuracy for some. A 3 MOA mil-surp bolt gun may define accuracy for others. A 3 MOA in a modern bolt gun is an embarrassment.

If someone says their gun is accurate, it means nothing. Define accurate….just a pet peeve of mine.

[Hannibal]

This an example of a meaningful post. Real numbers!

A 3 MOA lever action may define accuracy for some. A 3 MOA mil-surp bolt gun may define accuracy for others. A 3 MOA in a modern bolt gun is an embarrassment.

If someone says their gun is accurate, it means nothing. Define accurate….just a pet peeve of mine.

Agreed. Not to mention the length of the testing. 1 MOA at 50 yards does NOT automatically mean the same at 100yds. Let along longer distance.

[brokeasajoke]

The OP has a video posted in another thread. That barrel literally has sections of the lands missing and corrosion potholes instead. It's some of the worst corrosion pitting I've ever seen.

That won't buff out.


Looks rough. I seen it too

[Larry Gibson]

A pitted bore with strong rifling cast shoot lubed cast bullets quite well. I've found fire lapping such to help a lot to improve accuracy.

[Hannibal]

A pitted bore with strong rifling cast shoot lubed cast bullets quite well. I've found fire lapping such to help a lot to improve accuracy.

I'd look at the thread containing the video. That bore is heavily damaged. Looks like a mine field. It's really, really bad. Again, when you have pot holes and missing land sections smoothing out the edges won't fix that unless your only goal is minute of pie plate. And I'm not sure about that at 100 yds with that barrel.

[Larry Gibson]

I'd look at the thread containing the video. That bore is heavily damaged. Looks like a mine field. It's really, really bad. Again, when you have pot holes and missing land sections smoothing out the edges won't fix that unless your only goal is minute of pie plate. And I'm not sure about that at 100 yds with that barrel.

I looked at the thread carefully. I've also bore scoped several "rough" barrels that were fouled after shooting PC'd bullets. Wolfdog91 shot a quite a few of PC'd bullets of as shown in previous videos. A lot of what I see in the video on his other thread looks more like PC and perhaps lead fouling than it does pitting and lack of lands. I suggest Wolfdog91 give the barrel a thorough cleaning with JB bore cleaner and/or ChoreBoy wound tightly on a worn bronze brush to remove any such fouling. Then scope again. Yes, I could be wrong but it's better to know for sure.

BTW; Wolfdog91's question was "Curious what's eveyone experience in badly pitted barrels and lead bullets vs jacketed ?" My response was in answer to the question. Such pitted barrels with strong rifling will also shoot jacketed well but the do foul. A properly fit and lubed cast bullet generally will not foul as bad as we think because the bullet rides the bore on a layer of lube. The lube quickly fills the "pitted" areas and the alloy never really touches steel.

[Milky Duck]

speer flat base jacketed projectiles may just be your new best friend...many an old SMLE .303brit has seen new lease of life after changing to them.

[Bigslug]

A pitted bore with strong rifling cast shoot lubed cast bullets quite well. I've found fire lapping such to help a lot to improve accuracy.

It's also worth remembering that one of the theories played with in the black powder era was that the groove diameter should be large in order to give the fouling someplace to go. Not unlike pitting really. If you've got ridges that can spin a bullet, there are alternative measures to bore sealing that do not involve perfect bullet fit to the grooves - paper patching, wax impregnated base wads and the like.

But at the end of the day ability to shoot accurately with barrel pitting is kind of like ability to live with cancer - it comes down to how much of it you have.

[ascast]

what Larry G said. I have shot a lot of really badly worn and pitted rifles. No jackets as I an odd ball caliber guy, but cast I see no issue. Lots of lube, or at least enough.

[lar45]

I have a Turk Mauser in 8x57 with a grossly oversized bore. The groove diameter is roughly .328".
It was the first rifle I tried to sporterize myself...
I tried some Speer 150s and was lucky to get 5 shots on the paper at 25yds. I was going to scrap the barrel, but someone here suggested trying a longer bullet with more bearing surface.
I tried the Speer 170s and was able to get 1 1/4" groups at 100 yds.

[Rapier]

Only one way to fix a rust pitted barrel, ever. You remove the pitting completely. Re-barrel, re-bore or fire lap using a step up grit valve grinding compound until you get a mirror finish. Fire lapping takes longer, is effective, but changes the barrel from say a 30 cal to a 33 cal just for example only.
I usually just save the action and then R&R the barrel with a new barrel. That barrel replacement is a lot less brain damage in the end. As I own a shop, replacement is easier for me, in the long run.

[GhostHawk]

It is my experience, that once a barrel is truly clean. In my case a badly leaded Yugo SKS with copper fouling under it. It took me 3 days hitting it every hour or 2 to get it clean.

Once I had it there cast was way better, and tended to fill in the bottoms of the pits better than jacketed.

A better lube, continued shooting, it continued to improve until I could with confidence call out a quarter sized piece of orange clay pigeon at 50 yards on the berm and nail them 10 out of 10.

Longer range is going to be tougher. But could IMO still be doable.
I would not advise pushing the speed. In fact bring it down as far as 1400 fps or thereabouts.

[dverna]

It is my experience, that once a barrel is truly clean. In my case a badly leaded Yugo SKS with copper fouling under it. It took me 3 days hitting it every hour or 2 to get it clean.

Once I had it there cast was way better, and tended to fill in the bottoms of the pits better than jacketed.

A better lube, continued shooting, it continued to improve until I could with confidence call out a quarter sized piece of orange clay pigeon at 50 yards on the berm and nail them 10 out of 10.

Longer range is going to be tougher. But could IMO still be doable.
I would not advise pushing the speed. In fact bring it down as far as 1400 fps or thereabouts.

The issue I would have is dealing with a .22 Hornet. If it shoots "well" at 1400 fps with cast, why bother? That is not much better than using a .22 LR at half the cost without having to cast, lube/size and reload. There are better ways to utilize $75/k primers and $45/lb powder than getting 20% better performance than a .22LR.

I think Larry gave good advice. But if after doing that, the gun is not achieving .22 Mag ballistics it is not of much use as a .22 cal. IMO.

These guns are selling for $350-500 on Gunbroker. Not as cheap as I expected but is it worth investing in having the barrel rebored or replaced?

Here is a link to a guy who had one rebored to 6.5 Grendel:

https://www.65grendel.com/forum/forum/-6-5-grendel-discussion-forums/-6-5-grendel-bolt-actions-single-shots/3954-h-r-handi-rifle-build?4571-H-amp-R-Handi-Rifle-Build=

This is link to the gunsmith who did the work:

http://www.oregunsmithingllc.com/Reboring-Relining-MuzzleBrake.html

[Ruts]

My three bores that lead the least are all badly pitted.two of them get no lead with subsonic rounds and one gets some but it comes out with a bronze brush and patches in grains and flakes. I find if I get lead on a nice smooth bore it's very hard to get off and just as likely to lead without the right load

[Wooserco]

Agreed! If a rifle won't shoot minute of angle, it's down the road. I own a rifle that my Uncle built on a Mauser action in .308. It was capable of half minute of angle a 600 yards. Sadly, I wasn't, even 25 years ago. I did shoot seventeen 10s or Xs at 600 yards with it (sadly, in practice). My buddy asked to shoot it the next relay. He beat me with my ammo, my rifle. He was one round of shooting a clean. Bastard! Joel, may you rest in peace.