Bad Primers?

[barrabruce]

I have a batch of cci large rifle primers.
The gun I’m using them in I’m getting 2 fail to fire in every 20 rnds.
The primers show a little shallow dent. The next firing and the dent is very little deeper if any and doesn’t fire.
The other primers fire well.
This is in a 30-30.
I checked the shoulder length from base of rim to a point some where with calibers and a block with a tapered hole in it.
The total variance was 0.03mm or 12 thou.

The firing pin extrudes well enough.

Have I got a batch with some harder primer material.?

I may try and extract the primers next time around and see if they will fire in a different gun.

Thoughts?
Things to try look for?
Maybe my ancient meckon/ lee red plastic primer tool has had it’s day?
Thanks
Bruce

[TheGrimReaper]

Never had a problem with CCI primers

[birdshot]

maybe ensure the primers are fully seated.

I actually had a couple of boxes of 30/30 that failed to fire about one in four. I used them pig hunting in Texas and was never sure if they would be duds or go bang. Added a new layer of excitement to my hunting. Sometimes the second strike would make them fire. I thought it was bad primers but years later with the internet I read about making sure the primer was fully seated.

[Winger Ed.]

Is the bolt, firing pin, hammer pivot point & spring really clean and not 'gummy' from old lube?

That may not be your problem, but it could make a bad situation worse.

[fredj338]

Of it fires the 2nd time, its your reloading technique.

[35 Rem]

It may not be the root cause of your problem but an extra power hammer spring would most likely make it go BOOM every time. I put one in my Marlin 336 last Fall when it started doing the same. I had problems with it before and thought it was fixed with the usual cleaning, firing pin protrusion check, etc. Figured that if it had to be that clean to fire reliably, the whole thing was marginal so decided to add some horsepower to the hammer spring. It fires every time now. The spring came from Brownell.

[barrabruce]

Hmmm[smilie=f:
Well having a think about it I thought I’d better go and check out the firing system.
I re-found one of the smaller to shoulder length cases, which should give me the worst headspace/primer hit length.
Scrumadged around in the bin for the two dud primers which I found.
Re seated a dud primer and fired.
No go.
After taking the bolt apart and cleaning out some rust on the firing pin shaft and inside of the bolt and spring.
I tested it for free fall through the bolt for binding.
Sure enough the spring grabs a little.
Turned it around and it was worse.
Errrrgh! Looks like "maybe" a replacement and the coils ground flatter to fit. More so on one end.
So with a bit or Ed’s red and some swearing I managed to put it all back together and adjust the firing pin protrusion.

One of the dud primers worked while the second didn’t but a lot deeper firming pin hit.

I wasted a few more primers and no problems.

The spring is a bit soggy feeling to it.
It has increased the trigger pull weight to at least 3lbs now.

Time will tell if it is fixed and working.
I think the dead primer may have gotten wet or the anvil had somehow mishapened when hit or Dre primed.

The depth of seating seems right in the pocket but I can’t feel the primer hit rock bottom and squish that little bit.

Thanks to all and

Sorry CCI for blaspheming and cursing your lovely precious primers that I have to load with.
I’m sure there could be some poor needy reloaders out there who would appreciate them.
But I can’t think of any.
Bruce.

[243winxb]

Hope its fixed.

30-30 Headspace is on the rim. Where shoulder is, dont matter for firing. Case life, maybe?

A slow firing pin velocity is a common cause of misfire. Cleaning fixes it most times.

Pin protrusing should be correct.

My 22lr Mossberg had a firing pin spring that wore a groove inside the pin channel. The drag on the spring caused misfires.
Reversing the spring has fixed it.

[dale2242]

I have NEVER had a FTF due to bad primers.
I have been reloading since the early 60s.
ALMOST always, a FTF was due to firearms issues.
Primers not seated firmly on the bottom of the primer pocket can cause you issues.

[Kraschenbirn]

Back when I was shooting a lot of NRA Action Pistol competition, CCI primers were notorious for being 'hard'. I had a couple revolvers, 'tuned' by the S&W Custom Shop, that were totally unreliable with CCI. CCI might go BANG, Click, Click, BANG (maybe?), Click, Click; switch to Federal or Remington...'BANG' every time the hammer fell. At one time, I even had a letter from S&W advising against using CCI in their Custom Shop guns.

FWIW, though, I'm using recent-production CCI SPs in both my Ruger Match Champion (w/Wilson hammer and trigger return springs) and my wife's Colt Diamondback without any issue.

Bill

[lightman]

I hope your attempt to fix it worked. I'm like the others, I suspect either a problem with your bolt/firing pin or that you are not seating the primer fully. I use a primer pocket uniforming tool to cut the bottom of the pocket square and to the same depth to assure that I'm seating the primers uniformly. Good Luck correcting this.

PS, I'm another diehard CCI fan!

[waksupi]

I asked CCI about this years ago. I was informed the mouth of the primer is cut more sharply than other brands, and needed seated more firmly. I went back through my loaded ammo, ran it through the press to re-seat, and no more misfires.

[murf205]

This past weekend a friend brought a Kimber 89 BGR in 30-06 for me to remount a scope and while he was here, he mentioned that this rifle would not go bang with Remington ammo. It shoots Federal and Hornady just fine but Rem is a no go. I have some of my handloads ready and we will see if it shoots them every time. When I give it back to him, I told him to let me have that ammo that wont go bang and I;ll have a look see. Coincidence that you mentioned this, hope you solve the problem.

[barrabruce]

Thanks murf let us know.
After I had cleaned out the bolt on this old husky 1898? Action it felt and worked smoother.
Spring tension was wound up to max and the protrusion adjusted.
It has a flat bolt face and a small extractor but no ejector.
It actually headspace’s on the shoulder as the bolt doesn’t fully contact the barrel face when locked by the single rear lug.
It is a little weird at 0.300’ bore and 0.315" grooves.
It is only marked 7.6 cal on the barrel.

So it’s a 8mm? 30-30. It’s could nearly be a small 32-40 with a 30-30 case or a large 32 special.
It has 1:15 twist. Bore is well "corrosive primer" fixed.
Has appears to have a std 30-30 chamber with no real lead into the rifling.
Maybe some weird Swedish/German/American, bitza pup.
Or something similar that was reamed out.
To make brass I seat well out into the lands with tight bullets.
I think that is why I got it cheap. Hahaha.
I only use light loads and paperpatched bullets in this.

Anyhoo.
I will be noting the primer seating more on this as the pockets are a little tight as well.

If it re-appears a new spring will need to be sourced.

Thankyou for reading through all my gibberish and replying.
Bruce

[jimb16]

Only once did I ever have a batch of bad primers; 8 out 0f 50. They were winchesters. All of the other Winchester primers fired without a problem. All other brands fired as well. I thought it was the rifle so I tried them in another rifle of the same caliber. Same problem. All were properly seated. I checked depth before trying to fire them. I wrote to Winchester about them and sent the duds to them as well as the lot number info. They replaced them with good primers. They informed me that that batch was supposed to be pulled, but a few got out. It does happen, but it is rare.

[fredj338]

I hope your attempt to fix it worked. I'm like the others, I suspect either a problem with your bolt/firing pin or that you are not seating the primer fully. I use a primer pocket uniforming tool to cut the bottom of the pocket square and to the same depth to assure that I'm seating the primers uniformly. Good Luck correcting this.

PS, I'm another diehard CCI fan!

The reason I doubt the rifle is it is an intermittent problem. if it were the rifle, it would be almost always.

[Mike H]

The 30-30 headspaces with the rim,the rim of the case seats on the rear of the barrel stopping the case or cartridge going foward.The distance between the bolt face and the back of the cartridge rim is the rifle headspace,try measuring that with a feeler gauge or shims.The longer the headspace distance is,the more likely you are to have ignition problems as the striker energy is reduced pushing the cartridge foward to a stop.As others have said,make sure the primers are seated well also.I would think replacing the striker spring would help,it is probably around a hundred years old.

[35 Rem]

Thanks murf let us know.
After I had cleaned out the bolt on this old husky 1898? Action it felt and worked smoother.
Spring tension was wound up to max and the protrusion adjusted.
It has a flat bolt face and a small extractor but no ejector.
It actually headspace’s on the shoulder as the bolt doesn’t fully contact the barrel face when locked by the single rear lug.
It is a little weird at 0.300’ bore and 0.315" grooves.
It is only marked 7.6 cal on the barrel.

So it’s a 8mm? 30-30. It’s could nearly be a small 32-40 with a 30-30 case or a large 32 special.
It has 1:15 twist. Bore is well "corrosive primer" fixed.
Has appears to have a std 30-30 chamber with no real lead into the rifling.
Maybe some weird Swedish/German/American, bitza pup.
Or something similar that was reamed out.
To make brass I seat well out into the lands with tight bullets.
I think that is why I got it cheap. Hahaha.
I only use light loads and paperpatched bullets in this.

Anyhoo.
I will be noting the primer seating more on this as the pockets are a little tight as well.

If it re-appears a new spring will need to be sourced.

Thankyou for reading through all my gibberish and replying.
Bruce

What exactly is the firearm? I'm not sure if it's a lever action or what from your description. And it sounds as you are implying it may have been rechambered by an amateur gunsmith that didn't do it correctly? If that's true it opens up a bunch of possibilities that could be causing your problems.

[barrabruce]

323700
G’day MikeH thanks for the feed and warmth again.

Looks like I have my foot in my mouth.
Mike was right.
A new factory case does sit on the chamber mouth when inserted.
Agghhh hum. So does a fired case with a little push.
And also it measures about 300 bore and 311" at the muzzle.
The gun could be around a hundred years old.
The throat diameter is 315 thou so that’s were I got that figure from.
Maybe I could shoot a few factory loads through her and see what she does.
But that may make me having to buy jacketed bullets.
The old girl has slender wood work and I would hate to split her.
Plus it give me an excuse to shoot light loads.
That’s my excuse and I’m sticking to it.
Ha

So it’s been a really bad thread for me as it turns out.
Having to eat crow and humble pie.
:oops:

[Mike H]

G’day Barra,I hope you and the others don’t get too upset with my lectures,it is an old person thing.The trouble is misfires are not rare and most often the primers get the blame when it is often something else.If it was me,I would continue with lead bullets. Mike.

[poppy42]

I had a brick of cci small pistol primers that I had the same problem with! If you search the forum you will find my thread about it and cci’s response! They told me my guns were broken and I didn’t know how to reload properly! Anything but the primers! There senior tech told , and I “cci has never had an issue with any of there products. There primers are always perfect “! Three different hand guns all failed to go bang. Absolutely no problem with the hand guns when I use any other primers! I thought maybe they miss labeled small rifle primers for small pistol primers. Maybe even their military primers labeled as small pistol primers. After seeing that you had the same issue with L.R. Primers who know! I stopped using cci primers!
Anyway, I feel your pain! I had to break down 1,000 rounds of pistol ammo! 9x10, 9x19, and 39 special. What a pain in the rear end!
Good luck!

[barrabruce]

Don’t worry poppy I had only 2 rounds.
I usually only load up what I will need at any time.

The cci lrp work well in my h&r 30-30 break open rifle.
I may have some other product name ones as well but would have to look around.

I only pulled the bolt apart a few years ago and for the life of me I can’t understand how water or rust could have formed in there.

cci primers are a little thicker than some and in small rifle or pistol round if you have bad pressure signs with them then you are way too hot.

I have used them for years as they were usually cheap and made good groups with them.


I got several thousand magtec pistol primers real cheap at a sale. No one wanted them or interested.
They all said they were good thou but they had heaps.
I ended up throwing precious cases away as I thought the primer pockets were too loose.
It was the primers diameter. And if they nearly fell in the case I would just toss the primer out.
The good ones worked o.k. Thou.
About 90% were good at 1/3rd price so I did well.

Mike H you’re welcome anytime.

Cheers

[fredj338]

I had a brick of cci small pistol primers that I had the same problem with! If you search the forum you will find my thread about it and cci’s response! They told me my guns were broken and I didn’t know how to reload properly! Anything but the primers! There senior tech told , and I “cci has never had an issue with any of there products. There primers are always perfect “! Three different hand guns all failed to go bang. Absolutely no problem with the hand guns when I use any other primers! I thought maybe they miss labeled small rifle primers for small pistol primers. Maybe even their military primers labeled as small pistol primers. After seeing that you had the same issue with L.R. Primers who know! I stopped using cci primers!
Anyway, I feel your pain! I had to break down 1,000 rounds of pistol ammo! 9x10, 9x19, and 39 special. What a pain in the rear end!
Good luck!

Anything is possible but in 400K rds loaded over 45 years, the only bad primers I have had were Wolf spp. About 10% failure rate. Either no compound or no anvil. I have never had a Win, CCi, Rem or Fed fail. Went thru my first 1200 Fiocchi, no issues in several pistol. Most of the time its the reloaders technique, sometimes its the gun but pretty rare for primers to fail if they have been stored properly.

[murf205]

My only primer problems in my history of handloading was with Winchester LRP's. They seated in the pocket but it could be done with the softest of force. CCI;s required the normal force so I mic'd them and they were about 1/2 thousandths under sized. I called Olin and a very nice lady asked me to zero and clean my mic anvil and re-measure while we were on the phone. She agreed and sent a UPS label and a voucher for another 1K primers. No problem since.