You can't tell know it alls anything...they are always right

[chutestrate]

Have a good friend who started loading a number of years ago after he saw my set up. We've had good conversation, and shared ideas. He has always used jacketed bullets, and recently started using lead for practicing with an new SBH in 44 mag. He called me and said he had used PowerPro 300 using jacketed data for some equal weight lead slugs. I suggested he find another powder that could be used for lead and jacketed. He argued with me about it. It may be ok, but for some reason he is determined to use his powder. His current load is 24.2 gr of PowerPro 300 behind a 240gr lead slug. He thinks because he is under the max load for Alliant's data he'll be ok. Maybe, but I'll be standing down a few bays when he tests his load..

[Hannibal]

Have a good friend who started loading a number of years ago after he saw my set up. We've had good conversation, and shared ideas. He has always used jacketed bullets, and recently started using lead for practicing with an new SBH in 44 mag. He called me and said he had used PowerPro 300 using jacketed data for some equal weight lead slugs. I suggested he find another powder that could be used for lead and jacketed. He argued with me about it. It may be, but for some reason he is determined to use his powder. His current load is 24.2 gr of PowerPro 300 behind a 240gr lead slug. He thinks because he is under the max load for Alliant's data he'll be ok. Maybe, but I'll be standing down a few bays when he tests his load..

Never accept criticism from someone you'd not seek advice from. And never blame yourself for another's exercise in stupidity.

[Winger Ed.]

Some people can get something stuck in their head and you can't pull it out with a team of horses.

[Recycled bullet]

Never accept criticism from someone you'd not seek advice from. And never blame yourself for another's exercise in stupidity.Well said.

[murf205]

You are so right Hannibal. Case in point: I have a good friend who is very knowledgeable with regards to handloading but trying to tell him I can shoot cast in a Micro-Groove barrel is a lesson in futility! He absolutely will not believe it and refuses to shoot cast in a Winchester 94 375W. He say's " I don't want to get the barrel " all leaded up"! So.... I don't even try anymore. Issue solved for both of us.

[country gent]

Some just dont realize what the are working with in terms of pressures. Some feel that any listed "recipe" is safe no matter the conditions, firearm or combination of. Some have to learn the hard way. Some never learn.
I dont shoot others reloads I dont offer my reloads to others. If I ask I will offer help, information,and advice. I will also give where to reference the information if possible.

Same in the shop Ill make a part for you but Im very selective who runs my machines.

[405grain]

It's not just firearms related, it applies to any mechanical devise from a Crescent wrench to the Chernobyl reactor: The worst damage that is done to something is not caused by someone that doesn't know what they're doing. It's caused by someone that THINKS they know what their doing.

[Hannibal]

You can lead a horse to water. You can even tie it to a tree on the water's edge. Yet some horses will still die from dehydration.

So it goes.

[dverna]

I see the max for that powder and 240 gr jacketed bullet is 25.0 gr. 24.2 gr is not where I would start, but I doubt it will blow up his SBH.

It seems like a recommended powder for .44 Mag so why does he need a different powder? I must be missing something.

[kreuzlover]

It's been my experience that a jacketed bullet load, and same weight
as cast bullet being considered would be safe load! Cast bullets have
much less resistance in the barrel than a jacketed one! Load & shoot
away!

[jsizemore]

Some cast bullet alloys can't handle the same pressures as jacketed.

[Hannibal]

Sometimes all you can do is let people **** around and find out. Hard lessons, but so it goes.

[reddog81]

I see the max for that powder and 240 gr jacketed bullet is 25.0 gr. 24.2 gr is not where I would start, but I doubt it will blow up his SBH.

It seems like a recommended powder for .44 Mag so why does he need a different powder? I must be missing something.

I was wondering the same thing. Assuming other reloading procedures were followed correctly there’s basically a zero % anything bad is going to happen. The load 3% off max. Maybe not the ideal place to start but people do this all the time. It’s not very often I create a load with exact bullet, case, primer mentioned in manual.

[Shawlerbrook]

I have given up giving unsolicited advice on reloading and also many other things. People these days in many instances are listening handicapped. Remember the old saying …God gave you two ears and one mouth for a reason.

[41mag]

Yup, it can all go to poop in only 4 rounds depending on how things are matched up...
https://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=323595&thumb=1&d=1708381815
https://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=323596&thumb=1&d=1708381840

Above, four rounds through my 41mag with a standard load, only a different batch of alloy. It wasn't up to the inertia of being launched with that load. Just had to try it....

Works fine in the 45C though...
https://castboolits.gunloads.com/asset.php?fid=274724&uid=2895&d=1708382267

It had over a hundred plus rounds through it at the time of the pic..same alloy used in the 41 above. A slight change in alloy and it works like the latter.

[justindad]

I find it odd how folks can be so proud of their reloads. There’s greater works available to us in life.

[M-Tecs]

I never used Power Pro 300 but a quick search does show cast bullets listing for it.

https://loaddata.com/Cartridge/44-Remington-Magnum-44-Magnum-Power-Pro-300-MP/5942

https://bayoushooter.com/threads/alliant-power-pro-300-mp-with-44-mag.129020/
Data below is what I got from Ben @ Alliant for cast bullets...

44 Rem Mag
250 gr Cast Lead
300MP powder start 23 grs max 24 grs

300 gr Cast Lead
300MP powder start 18.5 grs max 19.5 grs

357 mag
180 gr Cast Lead
300MP powder start 12 grs max 14 grs

A firm crimp on the bullet is recommend.

I've shot 23 grains of 300 MP with a 250 gr. Beartooth cast so far..pretty stout in my 10" Contender.
I have not run any through my chrony yet...but plan to using 300 MP, H110, and W296 to compare velocities...
Bulldog........................................... ................................


To all Interested:

H-110 1,567 fps
W-296 1,524 fps
300 MP 1,450 fps

T/C Contender, factory 10" barrel, Leupold 2x scope and mounts.
44 Mag., 250 LBT (0.432), Cast, Gas Checked Bullet (Beartooth Bullets)
23 grs. each powder (min. load of 300 MP, per Alliant email with this bullet)
Win Brass (3 times fired), Tula LP Primers
Temp: 80 Deg.

Conclusion:
I was surprised that 300 MP was that much slower. The H110 vs W296 can swap back and forth on top ends loads,
as per load data in several manuals I have...one lot can be faster than the other, so no big surprise there.
Recoil was stiff on all, but the H110 was tops in that department also...wrist is still sore.
All grouped well @ 25 yds., but I was not focused on shooting tight groups.

H110 is still top powder for speed, which I have used a lot in my 44 mag. and 357 mag.
All three powders looked the same out of the bottles, if you poured three piles on the loading bench, you could not tell them apart.
I will re-test this again, probably with a different bullet. Tula primers seemed to be Magnum (per load work I done before before),
loading manuals recommend magnum primers using H110/W296.

[Tall]

There was a time when I was in my 20's. I was bullet proof and invisible! Or so I thought. Fortunately it all turned out OK. I was a big fan of max loads back then. If it had W296 and a light bullet, I was all over that.

[dtknowles]

I don't try to tell people what to do (accept at work when that is my job or as a parent). I make suggestions or share opinions, a few words to the wise is all that is needed, to the unwise, well.... What I see as what he is doing wrong is not dropping back 10% and working back up. That is what I consider the proper practice, when you change anything, you drop back 10% and work back up. That goes for different lot of powder, different primer, different bullet, different alloy, different gun.

Tim

[Apple Man]

Some cast bullet alloys can't handle the same pressures as jacketed.

However some lead loads of the same weight can be driven faster with less pressure.

BTW, I just shot a bunch of cast bullets through a Glock 23 for the first time today. All the stories of the polygonal (sp?) rifling leading up and which turns out to be the Glock Kaboom. I pulled it apart when I got home, bore was shiny, raj a brush down it and it was very clean with no trace of leading.

[dtknowles]

I never used Power Pro 300 but a quick search does show cast bullets listing for it.

https://loaddata.com/Cartridge/44-Remington-Magnum-44-Magnum-Power-Pro-300-MP/5942

https://bayoushooter.com/threads/alliant-power-pro-300-mp-with-44-mag.129020/
Data below is what I got from Ben @ Alliant for cast bullets...

44 Rem Mag
250 gr Cast Lead
300MP powder start 23 grs max 24 grs

300 gr Cast Lead
300MP powder start 18.5 grs max 19.5 grs

357 mag
180 gr Cast Lead
300MP powder start 12 grs max 14 grs

A firm crimp on the bullet is recommend.

I've shot 23 grains of 300 MP with a 250 gr. Beartooth cast so far..pretty stout in my 10" Contender.
I have not run any through my chrony yet...but plan to using 300 MP, H110, and W296 to compare velocities...
Bulldog............


The lack of precision in those load recommendations caught my eye. That data is in at best half grain increments. I am more used to tenth of a grain increments. It would give me a more confidence if that 24 gr. was actually 24.0 gr. Why not three-digit precision. Why a one grain spread between the .44 mag start and max loads (about 4-5 %) but a two grain spread on the .357 loads (about 15%). Not thinking this is the best data.

Tim

[fredj338]

The lack of precision in those load recommendations caught my eye. That data is in at best half grain increments. I am more used to tenth of a grain increments. It would give me a more confidence if that 24 gr. was actually 24.0 gr. Why not three-digit precision. Why a one grain spread between the .44 mag start and max loads (about 4-5 %) but a two grain spread on the .357 loads (about 15%). Not thinking this is the best data.

Tim
Depends on the powder & cartridge. 1/10gr with slow powders in big cases isnt moving the needle much. With fast powders in small case, yes 1/10gr makes safety sense. While 1/2gr diff in magnums with slow powders might be a bit much, not ridiculous.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Have a good friend who started loading a number of years ago after he saw my set up. We've had good conversation, and shared ideas. He has always used jacketed bullets, and recently started using lead for practicing with an new SBH in 44 mag. He called me and said he had used PowerPro 300 using jacketed data for some equal weight lead slugs. I suggested he find another powder that could be used for lead and jacketed. He argued with me about it. It may be ok, but for some reason he is determined to use his powder. His current load is 24.2 gr of PowerPro 300 behind a 240gr lead slug. He thinks because he is under the max load for Alliant's data he'll be ok. Maybe, but I'll be standing down a few bays when he tests his load..
while I am with others here about working up a load. If the friend uses a GC boolit with a hard alloy, or heat treated, he could likely have an accurate load.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

It's been my experience that a jacketed bullet load, and same weight
as cast bullet being considered would be safe load! Cast bullets have
much less resistance in the barrel than a jacketed one! Load & shoot
away!

Well, they do, until they don't.
As pressure increases, the boolit will try to obturate more (especially with a softer alloy), driving pressure up and increasing friction.

[TurnipEaterDown]

Used PP300MP w/ the LEE 310 GC quite a bit -- 310 Lee GC, seated long (1.70), 21.5 gr PP300MP, CCI300 primer. 1400 fps in a 14" Contender. Shot 2.75" full cylinder groups at 50 yd in my R SBH. One of my better for that bullet in that revolver.
Good powder in my opinion for Mag pistol.

BTW: Several years ago, article in Handloader mentioned that an industry rep stated that Accurate 11FS, Alliant PP300 MP, W296, H110 all have the same manufacturing specification -- in other words, given lot to lot differences in production: The can is different.
Must be popular if 4 different companies sell basically the same thing w/ a different label...

[rintinglen]

Used PP300MP w/ the LEE 310 GC quite a bit -- 310 Lee GC, seated long (1.70), 21.5 gr PP300MP, CCI300 primer. 1400 fps in a 14" Contender. Shot 2.75" full cylinder groups at 50 yd in my R SBH. One of my better for that bullet in that revolver.
Good powder in my opinion for Mag pistol.

BTW: Several years ago, article in Handloader mentioned that an industry rep stated that Accurate 11FS, Alliant PP300 MP, W296, H110 all have the same manufacturing specification -- in other words, given lot to lot differences in production: The can is different.
Must be popular if 4 different companies sell basically the same thing w/ a different label...

PP300Mp is made at the Saint Marks facility, but is much slower than 296/H110 (which are the exact same thing, wc296). Layne Simpson was wrong when he said those three were the "same." They have different burn rates despite being made from the same substances.

Accurate 11 FS is very slightly slower than PP300MP, due to the flash suppressant added (hence the "FS"). There was a flurry of debate about 8 or 9 years ago concerning this matter that erroneous info given by ATK made even worse but it was eventually sorted out. 296/H110 fastest of the three, 300MP about 10% slower, AA #11 FS slightly slower still. I will concede that there is substantial overlap between these, but do not presume that what is a safe load in one is safe in the others. It might be, but then again, it might not.

[oldblinddog]

Awhile back there was a discussion about using 300MP as a substitute for SR4759 in rifle cartridges. I tried it and it worked for me. Anyone else done so?

[dtknowles]

Depends on the powder & cartridge. 1/10gr with slow powders in big cases isnt moving the needle much. With fast powders in small case, yes 1/10gr makes safety sense. While 1/2gr diff in magnums with slow powders might be a bit much, not ridiculous.

Agreed but we all use scales that read to the nearest 1/10th gr. so why not report loads that are less than 100gr. to the nearest 1/10 gr. three digit precision. If over 100 gr. then reporting to the nearest gr. or nears 0.5 gr would seem adequate and would be three digit precision or better. I have always been a bit uncomfortable measuring very small charges in very small cases to only the nearest 0.1 gr. but I don't have a better scale and a better scale would need a special environment. 0.1 gr. is pretty small.

Tim

[poppy42]

Ya know I’ve been casting and reloading since about 1980. That’s quite a while. I can tell you in no uncertain term “ I learn something new every day”! I listen to every opinion, do a little research on the subject, apply common sense to the topic, and take it from there! Some of it turns it to be good information, some of it turns out to be useless or even dangerous. The point of all this is a simple fact. Anyone who think they have all the answers, is set fast in his acceptance of new information, and is not willing to acknowledge that he doesn’t know everything ( there’s a few more things but I think ya get the idea) is a FOOL! or god himself! I’ve meet an awful lot of fools but as of this time I’ve yet to, nor expect to anytime soon, meet God. You stated that your friend started reloading after he observed your setup. Yet he seems to think he has surpassed you and everyone else in knowledge. That is someone I would not stand next to at the range or when he’s reloading! Narrow minded attitude like his are eventually going to get him or someone else hurt! Good luck and watch your 6!

[jimb16]

In my gun club we have several hundred members. Most of us reload. Out of all of those guys, there are only 2 whose reloads I would trust and they are strictly BY THE BOOK reloaders who don't racecar any of their loads. They trust my reloads as well. I do some wildcatting, and I will not let either of them try any wild cat load until I've proven it safe. The both know I would never allow them to shoot any load of mine that might put them or their firearm at risk.

[TurnipEaterDown]

PP300Mp is made at the Saint Marks facility, but is much slower than 296/H110 (which are the exact same thing, wc296). Layne Simpson was wrong when he said those three were the "same." They have different burn rates despite being made from the same substances.

Accurate 11 FS is very slightly slower than PP300MP, due to the flash suppressant added (hence the "FS"). There was a flurry of debate about 8 or 9 years ago concerning this matter that erroneous info given by ATK made even worse but it was eventually sorted out. 296/H110 fastest of the three, 300MP about 10% slower, AA #11 FS slightly slower still. I will concede that there is substantial overlap between these, but do not presume that what is a safe load in one is safe in the others. It might be, but then again, it might not.

Good & Interesting info on the correction to my statement.
I will say that the lot of PP 300 MP I have is not slower than any of the W296 I have had, but as noted, lot to lot and all that.

[chutestrate]

I was wondering the same thing. Assuming other reloading procedures were followed correctly there’s basically a zero % anything bad is going to happen. The load 3% off max. Maybe not the ideal place to start but people do this all the time. It’s not very often I create a load with exact bullet, case, primer mentioned in manual.

I agree it probably won't harm his SBH, but my concern is the lack of data in any manual for lead loads using that powder. I go strictly by the loads in books. I may change primers or switch bullet manufacturers, but not bullet weights. I won't try to guess what a powder will do.

[Larry Gibson]

It's been my experience that a jacketed bullet load, and same weight
as cast bullet being considered would be safe load! Cast bullets have
much less resistance in the barrel than a jacketed one! Load & shoot
away!

Unfortunately, that is the common belief. However, I have been pressure testing many different cartridge load combinations for 15+ years now. I have not observed that is always the case. In fact several years back I set out to prove that theory using basically the same weight cast and jacketed bullets in both rifle and handgun cartridges using the same load for each cartridge. I could not verify the theory as sometimes the psi was higher with cast than jacketed and sometimes the jacketed bullets gave the higher psi. I also could not formulate any "rule" for such as it seemed to just "depend".

There is a very good reason most reloading manuals tell you to start low and work up, especially if not using the exact same components.

[dale2242]

What Larry said.
I have used jacketed data for cast bullets in handguns since I began reloading.
I do not have pressure testing equipment but have not had any issues.

[lightman]

I don't try to argue with these people. They will just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience!

[white eagle]

You can't tell know it alls anything...they are always right

JUST ASK EM'

[chutestrate]

Well, my buddy decided to disassemble his loads. He said that he thought he could do better with a different powder. I just agreed that other powders could possibly be more flexible.

[OS1880]

I was told once a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Even more so with reloading

[castmiester]

while I am with others here about working up a load. If the friend uses a GC boolit with a hard alloy, or heat treated, he could likely have an accurate load.


Gas cutting happens when there isn't enough pressure to obturate the boolit
so much for obturation and fit.


boolit fit prevents cutting

Saywhat ?

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

you have taken my statements out of context.

[castmiester]

you have taken my statements out of context.

Obturation can be achieved still with hard casts.... and just has to be experimented with to know where it stops.

Just trying to figure out where you're coming from, that's all.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

My comment from this thread, was specific to the OP and the load his friend wants to use...a Max load...and not your your concern of gas cutting. Generally, we boolit casters like to follow the suggestions in the manuals about working up a load, from starting load. Then were are likely to find what is the most accurate load for that combination of powder/gun/boolit. Now When someone starts at Max, there is likely to be accuracy problems, and maybe a safety problem, that's why most of the comments where pointing that out. BUT, the powder the Friend want's to use, is the type of powder that is known to deliver the best accuracy at full (near Max) loads. So, I felt it necessary to point that out, and for best accuracy at Max loads, a GC and hard alloy tend to better achieve that at the SAAMI Max pressure of 44Mag. There is no mention of concerns of lead fouling or gas cutting or obturation...and since most reloaders are less concerned with those details, and more so with accuracy, that is the context.
.
Your thread, which my other comments were pulled from, was answering your topic of soft alloy boolits and your concern of gas cutting...there was no mention of desired accuracy or if you've investigated proper boolit fit, Due to what is typical with 44 mag guns (being notoriously oversized), I had to assume your boolit was undersized, which is so often typical with new cast boolit reloaders making 44 mag ammo, so I responded >

Gas cutting happens when there isn't enough pressure to obturate the boolit
.
then you asked what prevents gas cutting, I responded

boolit fit prevents cutting

[PBnJ]

It's hard to teach anyone something when they already know everything.