A question for all loaders

[44man]

I want all of you to put on your thinking caps and tell me what the most important factor is in the loading process to get consistant accuracy. Yes, Joe, you are welcome!

[felix]

Attitude! And, I do think you have it. ... felix

[44man]

Great answer! And it will be the best, I assure you.

[StarMetal]

********...and you have that too 44man hahahahahahahahaha


Joe

[45 2.1]

Fit and the methodology that goes with it.

[bruce drake]

Attention to detail. Without it we are building plinking ammo.

Bruce

[Edward429451]

Conformity!

[44man]

Nothing yet except Joe's nasty comments. I asked a very legitimate question and I see how you respond. The mark of intelligence is showing! Is it that you can't figure out what I asked?
Of course I have an attitude! Every time I post something I get beat down as if I don't know what I am talking about. But I notice every time I post a target, that ends the comments for that post. Joe, could it be that you think I am treading on your toes as the master of the forum? I will tell you that that is not why I am here. I am here to help and also to learn but you have never given any usefull information except lip service. I can clearly see that there are other posters here that see right through you. Either you know everything there is to know and don't want to share, or you really don't know what you are talking about and won't admit it. I will never make any more nasty comments to you, I think I said it all.
Dang I wished we lived close together, I would love to see you shoot.

[MTWeatherman]

Consistency in accuracy requires consistency in reloading. That consistency is required in all the steps involved...resizing, bullets, alloys, primers, powders, powder measuring, etc.

Everyplace you lose consistency, odds are you will be losing some accuracy.

[bisley45]

I am new to the forum but what I have seen it is the boolit seating depth that makes the bigest impact on accuracy and what MTWEATHERMAN said Consistency

[44man]

Joe, here are a few of many, many over the years. Plus I had at one time over 150 archery trophys. What can you show?

[9.3X62AL]

I would agree with consistency of adherence to dimensional relationships between ammunition components and the platform projecting it.

[44man]

We are being way too general! I am looking for the one single most important part of the reloading process. All have been very true but are the whole instead of the single. I want to narrow it down to the nity grity.

[StarMetal]

44man,

I'm just teasing you...I guess I didn't make it apparent enough and for that I aplogize.

Joe

[Bret4207]

I don't think there is one single item or job in the process that makes or breaks a load. I think it's adherence to the highest consistancy and quality standard possible thoughout the whole process. Uniform brass, quality inspection of the boolit, precise powder charging, finding the best primer, seating depth, crimp or not, fit in the throat etc., etc., etc. Purely speaking of lead boolits I think throat fit is much more important than with jacketed. Beyond that the individual rifle or handgun more or less dictates by it prefrences what is the most or the more important aspects of the process.

Is this the type of opinion you mean? I may not be seeing what you are looking for.

BTW- I haven't found you to be particulary abrasive, so I'll skip the rhetoric.

[StarMetal]

44man,

I don't have to do this, but I'm going to. I'm going to send you a pm and in it will be (just one of many) name of a friend of mine that knows me and shot years with me. You ask him how good I can shoot and of particular interest ask him how far away I could hit you with a 4 inch barrels Model 19 357 magnum with cast bullets. Let me warn you when you first present these questions to him that he's going to laugh. I told him this may happen in the future sometime, but I was really joking with him. No he wouldn't lie for or about me and there were many days that he outshot me too. Okay check your pm for name and ph number.

Joe

[waksupi]

You guys want us to build you a bigger wall to pee on?

[StarMetal]

Well don't know Ric, I don't have a scope on my pecker, but I do shoot magnum loads out of it.

Joe

[David R]

Consistancy is for sure the best and most important thing. But the thing I have is I love to pour boolits, load boolits and shoot em. ALL details count. I have called this poor mans bench rest for a while. We have so many more variables that we can control.

Love, Addiction, obsession..........

Those are what make a good accurate cast boolit shooter.

I have shot some small groups. Less than 5" at 300 yards. But when I whack the rams at 100 with 12 grains of red dot and a boolit from a group buy mold with my 1917 enfield, its just as satisfying.


David

[Bodine]

I am surprised this has been neglected...

"Some where, someone is always practicing, and went you meet him/her in competition, they will beat you"

That hangs on the wall of our rifle hut at our club, and it is true.

Others items that warrant mention are:

Time in flight
Doping the wind

You can have the best , most consistant loads going, but when it comes down to it, it is the loose nut behind the trigger.

I am a newbie at this, been shooting cast boolits about a year now. Attended my first CB nationals in KC last fall. Got an education I did, got my ass whooped. But I manged to wrangle out a couple of 4th place finishes (which surprised the heck out of me).

However, my neighbor a few doors down, the one I borrowed the comments above from, was a class champion at 83 years old.

I leave you with his most imfamous saying...

" I have learned so much, I am now at the height of my incompetence"

Jeff

[waksupi]

Well don't know Ric, I don't have a scope on my pecker, but I do shoot magnum loads out of it.

Joe

I've always been cautious of those magnum derringers. They've been known to go off unexpectedly, ie, premature discharge, and many times, the second shot fails to function. And you know the inherant dangers, of using magnum loads, in a firearm meant for standard or low velocity loadings.

[swheeler]

44 Man; I really don't know what you are asking but I will take a stab at it anyway- bullet seating- and I don't mean seating depth

[swheeler]

derringer? more like a snub-nose starter pistol shooting blanks!

[waksupi]

Joe, you left yourself wide open! I couldn't help myself!

[44man]

Swheeler getting close, elaborate!

[StarMetal]

Ric...no problem....all in fun.

Joe

[swheeler]

44 man; using seater dies that allow the case to be fully supported when the bullet starts to seat. For cheap "standard " dies the Hornady seater dies usually work very well with their sliding collar, which supports the bullet and case neck until the bullet starts to seat. Standard seater dies can be used by backing off the stem and letting the cartridge enter the die farther while just starting to seat the bullet, then turning in the stem to seat the bullet deeper in steps. Inline seater dies that fit the case very close- near match chamber dim- along with neck turned brass will produce ammo with the least amount of run-out. Start the bullet straight into the neck, and seat it straight.

[swheeler]

Joe; nothing wrong with a snubbie, it had better be concealed carry tho!! ha-ha-ha Don't want to be waving that thing around to much!
Scooter

[Dale53]

I shoot all kinds of rifles, with both black and smokeless powder as well as pistols and revolvers. However, my current best efforts go into Schuetzen shooting from the bench. If you want to win, you need a half-minute rifle. The most important single aspect of plain base cast bullet shooting (that's what we are restricted to - plain base cast bullets) is near perfect bullets. Of course, everything else has to be correct also, the entire load.

After you have a near perfect combination of rifle and load it will all come down to being able to "Dope the wind". It doesn't matter what kind of equipment you have if you can't dope the wind - you must be able to read the conditions.

Incidentally, we shoot centerfire at 200 yards in schuetzen shooting. My personal experience on paper ends at 500 yards. I have shot a good deal at up to 600 on steel but paper only to 500 yards.

Dale53

[Bass Ackward]

I would say with cast the most important factor is always ignition.

We design bullets to get it. We size bullets to get it. We go heavy to help achieve it. We harden bullets to get it. We choose powders to produce it. We use fillers to improve it. We size cases to assist it. We use primers to compensate for it or the lack of it.

But since we "need" different steps to achieve it with different calibers, what is the single most important factor is an open and inquiring mind and the flexibility to be able to change our habbits to make it happen.

[Junior1942]

In rifle length cartridges, it's bullet run-out. I use a Sinclair run-out guage, and I mark the low side of a round. I put the micrometer plunger about half way down the ogive. There can easily be as much as .010" difference in a long-bullet-for-case length case such as 7mmTCU.

I then rest the case rim/base on my bench with its nose in the flute of a plastic screwdriver handle. I turn the low mark up, then give the case neck/bullet junction a couple of gentle taps with a plastic hammer. It brings the run-out to .000" to .003".

[Blacktail 8541]

Mental attitude , without that none of the rest matters or can be accomplished.

[Leadmine]

Been mentioned a couple of times; simply good care throughout the process. You get sloppy so don't your loads.

It's a cumulative effect.

[44man]

OK, some very good stuff, but none of you have touched on the most important item. CASE TENSION! You go through all the best loading procedures, check run out, etc and still get a few bullets that open the group and maybe a bad flier that you blame on the bullet or a thousand other things. Why do bench rest shooters turn cases and then experiment to pick five cases that shoot the same and use those five for the whole shoot? CASE TENSION! They may not even know the reason to pick those five cases, just that they shoot the same. They can call it case volume or brass thickness but that is not what is in play. Turning necks to even the thickness aids in tension on the bullet but does not solve the problem. Brass varies due to the crystaline structure, work hardening from sizing and expanding and whether or how it is annealed. Of course annealing revolver brass is a no-no.
Now I am not talking about how tight the bullet is held, I am talking about each and every bullet being held with the exact same tension. It does not matter if the bullet is held a little loose or all are real tight. They have to be the SAME to get tight groups. It doesn't matter if you have a mediocre load or a tack driving load, changes in tension can destroy a group.
It seems that the smaller the caliber, the less effect case tension has. Is this the reason the .22 and 6mm calibers shoot tighter groups then .30 caliber and up? Yes, the more brass in contact with the bullet, the greater the variation will be.
Is there an easy way to measure the seating pressure? Do we need electronic presses that measure the seating pressure? Yes we do but it is expensive and maybe too far in the future for us. Maybe someone can come up with strain gauges to work, I can't because I am limited in electronics, only spent years repairing TV's as a sideline.
I have worked out a method to measure my seating pressure. Did it years ago and used it for silhouette but have been lax with it lately because I found dies that load very close tolerances. I am now going back to it to sort loads to see what my revolvers can do at 100 yd's.
Will I tell you? Not yet! I have taken pictures to post but I first want to turn this over to our resident genius.
Mr. Starmetal, are you listening? Will you solve the problem or are you just going to dispute everything I have said? Gee, this is fun!

[StarMetal]

44man

Lighten up buddy. I don't dispute everything you say. I know by the stuff you write that you're very knowledgeable and you do some dang good shooting too, especially with heavy recoiling big calibers which in itself isn't exactly easy. Peace??? Peace???? Whatya say? I don't dislike you, really I don't


To answer your question if I was striving to achieve the greatest accuracy I would do all the things that the benchrest folks do and you just mentioned some of it with tension and neck thickness, but stepping away from the cartridges for a moment I'd also make sure the firing equipment "the gun" was in top working order too, plus the benchrest being solid and stable, AND that my shooting technique was refined and consistant.

Joe

[fourarmed]

The right bullet, period.

[44man]

OK, Star, peace it is.
But back to the specific problem only. Let's do away with every other item and concentrate on case tension. How can we measure how the brass holds each bullet as close as we can with a limited amount of work and money. Maybe someone can come up with an idea that works much better then mine. One reason I am going to wait before posting pictures. I am not, after all near as smart as a lot of you, I have just done more work and pulled my hair more. I wish I had the math and engineering background a lot of you have. Old age doesn't help much either.

[StarMetal]

Well one thing is that we have to make sure the casings are all of the same temper, so I would guess that annealing them proper to get them all the same. They also would have to be from the same lot to hopefully assure that the brass is of the same type or mixture. Another thing to after sizing and expanding, plus belling out...we would want to wipe all traces of whatever inside neck lube we use. We are still going to have the lube on the bullets, but we might also want to wipe off the bands that will actually be inside the case neck. Being that we supposely checked the cases for even neck thicknesses, we just need to make sure that all get sized and re-expanded to the right inside diameter. Next we'll have to address a crimp if one is used.

Joe

[44man]

A little help and I have done all that. I have also experimented with every crimp that can be done, from none at all to excessive with many styles of crimp. I have found that crimp will not correct the problem and all that is needed is enough to hold the boolit in under recoil.
And you sure never want to anneal revolver brass, it is a disaster, I know because I tried it. Every boolit will pull under recoil.

[StarMetal]

44man

On revolver brass have you tried just neck sizing only..that means that you have to neck size , fire the round, neck size then put it in the chamber turned 180 degrees from what it was fired previously. That insures that the body of the case gets expanded evenly all the ways around.

Joe

[45 2.1]

44man-

You posted this:

I want all of you to put on your thinking caps and tell me what the most important factor is in the loading process to get consistant accuracy.

Your discourse is more about loading straight walled pistol cases than about your above question. Your question takes in modern and blackpowder rifles, slug guns, pistols, revolvers, shotguns etc. I can assure you, that you haven't touched on the more important aspects for these other guns. I'm waiting to here you expound on getting accuracy out of them also, because I haven't seen you write on them yet. If you meant just straight walled handgun rounds of large caliber, then you should have made yourself clearer.

[Maven]

44man, I think looking for one factor, the sine qua non if you prefer, that has such a compelling effect on accuracy is reductionism. Life just isn't that simple. For example, a well-fitted CB is a good thing, but if a shooter's loading and bench practices are, shall we say, hit or miss, then accuracy will be diminished. Bbl. quality and condition are also contributing factors, as are powder type, powder charge, velocity, neck tension, the BHN:pressure relationship, etc. Consider too, CB design/shape and its relationship to velocity: E.g., both Lyman #311413 and Lee .30HBC perform admirably at lower velocities, but become wildly inaccurate (unstable?) with increasing speed/pressure.

I don't know whether you read the article on how Eley achieves such outstanding accuracy from its .22cal. ammo (I think it was in a recent "Shooting Times."), but their engineers identified more than 200 variables which impinged on accuracy, the bulk of which were quite subtle. Btw, it also explains why their match ammo is so expensive. In sum, I don't think, and Eley doesn't either, that one variable even begins to explain or further our understanding of CB accuracy. (Yes, I know that Eley uses swaged bullets.)

Respectfully, Paul

[44man]

Joe, I have only neck sized my brass for years. That keeps the round as close to being aligned as is possible.
Maven, we are only trying to solve one of hundreds of things that effect accuracy. I totally understand that many factors come into play but for us reloaders, the problem of case tension has never been addressed.

[Bass Ackward]

Maven, we are only trying to solve one of hundreds of things that effect accuracy. I totally understand that many factors come into play but for us reloaders, the problem of case tension has never been addressed.


44man,

Yes case tension to straight cases is important. But more so with slower powders. A lot of people that are achieving ignition through faster powder speed, or magnum primers, or larger diameter bullets, or harder bullets may not achieve your results if they adopted tight case necks. It might be too much and take them the other way.

That's why you get so many different opinions to your question. People will tout the last major .... trick that they discovered that made a significant difference in what THEY were shooting. For me it was compressed fillers. For me compressed fillers negates the "NEED" for tight case grips. And I am loading to exploit this discovery.

Maybe your way will ultimately turn out to be the best way to load for handguns. Who knows until you try absolutely everything. Give me another 50 years and maybe I can get closer to telling ya if you are right. :grin:

[StarMetal]

Bass,

I'd have to say the biggest boon to my shooting ability was learning total trigger control. Having a good, a very good, trigger and learning how to use it. To me that has made the biggest improvement in my shooting.

Joe

[Bass Ackward]

Bass,

I'd have to say the biggest boon to my shooting ability was learning total trigger control. Having a good, a very good, trigger and learning how to use it. To me that has made the biggest improvement in my shooting.

Joe


Joe,

Exactly my point. When I was young, I had access to a Colt SAA 357 that I tought I handled pretty well then. I could throw lumps of coal up and powder them. But that gun would never shoot 2" at 25 yards for me. Consistent grip and trigger control on paper were my problem then.

But when people go a long time and finally discover something, not that they were doing wrong, but something that changed what they were doing and made things very right, it naturally becomes something they believe in. For that 357 above, it was the 358156 Thompson GC ball. I never had a more accurate handgun in my life than that one with that combination using Unique or 2400. But I am getting closer to it again today. :grin:

Cast bullet success is no miracle. It is a mythodical search for combinations that solve problems (whatever they are) that we sometimes create. And 44 man is correct that success for slow powders particularly with lighter bullets is a key to success from my experience. Heavy bullets in straight cases provides the most inertia, that ultimately lead to the best success . This would be my single point if I had to pick just one factor. I just can't shoot heavies and max loads anymore because of arthritis.

[Leadmine]

I don't buy the case tension thing. lee talks the same story in his book on reloading, bascially because he's trying to sell crimp dies. At the time it sounded good enough that I bought a fistfull of factory crimp dies. Bottom line, no improvement, and in fact about half the time things got noticebly worse.

[felix]

Case tension, be it a heavily sized case (preferable), or a crimped boolit (typically bad news), affects ignition further than most folks realize. This tension factor must be made commensurate with the cartridge's consumable components. Hard Boolits, like condoms, don't suffer nearly as much from crimping, but then should not be used unless necessary to hold a boolit in place from lack of a case not sized enough (in the neck). ... felix

[44man]

Some of you have missed a few things in my posts. I stated that we don't need super tight tension. What we need is extremely even tension from case to case. It doesn't matter if it takes five pounds of pressure to seat a bullet or 10 pounds, what is needed is that every boolit needs either 5 pounds or 10 pounds but not both in the same box of loads.
I also stated that crimp does not effect this factor. In other words, crimp will not make an accurate load by itself.
This is what I found; When I started sorting loads by how much pressure it took to push in the boolit, I would have 10 piles on the bench. If I took the looser ones and shot a group, I would get a very tight one. Then taking the tight loads, I would get the same size group but it would be 10" or more away from the first group. Now what happens if you just mix these loads together and shoot them?
What I am asking is for everyone to think of better ways to measure the seating pressure of each load. (Not the crimping pressure, just the boolit push in.)
I don't know how much clearer I can say it!

[44man]

Felix is hitting the nail right on the head.

[HickoryCreek]

44man states that 22 or 6mm shoot better because there is less brass than say a 30 caliber. If this is the case how is it explained that 50 bmg can shoot 1/2 inch groups at 1000 yards. If case tension is the most important. Since 50 bmg cases are 4 inches long unloaded. It seems that their would be severe variances with the brass. Yes, I know that these excellent shots meticulously search for uniform brass. But if less brass makes it easier, then those shooting 22's or 6's should be putting 5 shots in the same hole at 600 yards. Are they? I don't know just rambling thoughts from someone that knows virtually nothing at long distance shooting.

[Scrounger]

44man states that 22 or 6mm shoot better because there is less brass than say a 30 caliber. If this is the case how is it explained that 50 bmg can shoot 1/2 inch groups at 1000 yards. If case tension is the most important. Since 50 bmg cases are 4 inches long unloaded. It seems that their would be severe variances with the brass. Yes, I know that these excellent shots meticulously search for uniform brass. But if less brass makes it easier, then those shooting 22's or 6's should be putting 5 shots in the same hole at 600 yards. Are they? I don't know just rambling thoughts from someone that knows virtually nothing at long distance shooting.

You really believe this? I got a grand that says it can't. Five shots, one group, it makes it or it don't. Now if you back up and say you meant half-minute, that's a little different. I'd still be tremendously impressed and I would have to see it myself to believe it even then...

[felix]

Hickory, the 222, 3006, and 50BMG are the same cartridges for their respective bore diameters. They progressively shoot larger primers to compensate for thier respective case lengths. Ignition is more affected by case length, rather than by case diameter. All three cartridges shoot with about the same accuracy at thier intended respective distances. ... felix

[StarMetal]

Very good Felix, a 30-06 is a bigger version of the 222 and the 50 is a bigger version of the 30-06. I always thought those three cartridges had similar looks...just differences in overall size.

Joe

[44man]

I just got an E mail from Redding about the problem and they say the military is aware of it but they do not know how the military is measuring it. Let me see if I can transfer it.
Hi James.



I don’t believe we’ve ever discussed such an arrangement, but I know it’s important. The military teams that load their own match ammo have addressed this. I’m not sure how they measure it though.



Regards,



Patrick T. Ryan

There you go guys.

[44man]

Hickory creek, my friend has a .50 bmg and he shoots great groups with it using old military ammo, sometimes less then 1" at 100 yd's. Never approaches what you claim though and his handloads absolutely suck. He uses the Hornady V max and we can't even sight the thing in at long range. I don't know where you read this stuff at but it is not as easy as you claim. I want you to show me anyone that has shot a 1/2" group at 1000 yd's with ANY caliber! Never been done and never will.
Back when I was a varmint hunter, I shot 5, 220 swift bullets into 1/4" at 350 yd's and 5, 222 bullets into 1/2" at 250 yd's. Dam it, show me a 30-06 that will do this!
I have a 7 BR pistol that will put 5 shots in 3/8" at 100 yd's and a 7R pistol that will do the same. Show me a large bore that will do it.
Please do not show stupidity here, it doesn't fly.

[44man]

I can see you guys are not using your heads at all. When I say less brass, I am refering to what encircles the bullet, NOT HOW BIG THE CASE IS. Geeze, who am I talking to?

[StarMetal]

44man,

Remember the Marine sniper in nam Carlos? There was an incident in this book where he had some kind of 50 caliber rifle and this young boy was transporting supplies on his bicycle for the Cong and he really didn't want to kill him, so he shot the front axle out of the front wheel. The distance was something like 1200 yards. Those of you that have more knowledge on this man and his book and shooting can verify this. To me that would be a damn small group at 1000 yards as the hub is barely bigger then 1/2 inch alone the axle on a bicycle.

Joe

[Cayoot]

44man,

Remember the Marine sniper in nam Carlos? There was an incident in this book where he had some kind of 50 caliber rifle and this young boy was transporting supplies on his bicycle for the Cong and he really didn't want to kill him, so he shot the front axle out of the front wheel. The distance was something like 1200 yards. Those of you that have more knowledge on this man and his book and shooting can verify this. To me that would be a damn small group at 1000 yards as the hub is barely bigger then 1/2 inch alone the axle
on a bicycle.

Joe


Sorry Joe,
But I'm a pretty big fan of Carlos Hathcock. The firearm he was using was a regular Ma Duce and he DID take out the hamburger (his name for the enemy). He was credited with the longest range sniper kill up to that time.

He did not aim at, nor did he shoot the hub. It was a center of mass kill.

Awsome shot still eh?

[Scrounger]

44man,

Remember the Marine sniper in nam Carlos? There was an incident in this book where he had some kind of 50 caliber rifle and this young boy was transporting supplies on his bicycle for the Cong and he really didn't want to kill him, so he shot the front axle out of the front wheel. The distance was something like 1200 yards. Those of you that have more knowledge on this man and his book and shooting can verify this. To me that would be a damn small group at 1000 yards as the hub is barely bigger then 1/2 inch alone the axle on a bicycle.

Joe

And a moving target too boot???? :shock: My only comment is the initials of a poster on this board. It's easy to shoot with a typewriter. Check this web sites:

http://yarchive.net/gun/rifle/accuracy_figures.html

[felix]

I'm familiar with the term "tight neck" not "less brass" for the meaning for that you are referencing, 44man. ... felix

[44man]

Felix, either way, I think you understand. Seems as if the larger in diameter a case neck is, the more varied will be the neck tension. The larger bores having less for the most part. Picture a 10" diameter bullet with a brass case .010" thick around it. How much tension is the bullet being held with? Now if you increased the thickness of the brass to 5"???? You see what I mean, I hope.
I don't think I said it right! The case neck is thicker in relation to the bullet diameter in the smaller bores then in the larger bores, thus more tension. Dam it, I wish I could express myself better.
Scrounger, that was a great explanation about group sizes. Good site. Really shoots down the 1/2" 1000 yd group stuff.

[Scrounger]

Sorry, Joe, I know you like to worry a bone like this all day but I'm just going to take one big bite and leave the table. Carlos Hathcock is a sore point with me because so many people who should know better swallowed his stories hook, line, and sinker. He was a great shooter, national champion etc., perhaps even the best in his time and neither I nor anyone else can take his real achievements away from him. But in my opinion, he, like a lot of other people embellished his accomplishments a bit. How many 800 yard elk shots have you heard about, or 500 yard running antelopes? How about world record fish that flopped out of the boat or broke the line just as they were being lifted from the water? How about pilots? After WWII it turns out our pilots shot down 4 times as many planes as the Japanese and Germans ever produced! Their claims were just as outrageous. Human nature. As stated Hathcock was a great shot, but if I remember correctly he was there in the early stages of the war long before we had a really good, dedicated sniper rifle. He used a factory Winchester Model 70 in .30-06 with a Lyman 6X or 8X scope. At 1400 yards a man looks like an ant through those scopes, what do you think a bicycle wheel hub looks like? My feeling is he doubled or even tripled the distance on shots he made AND neglected to mention how many missed shots it took for him to figure out the correct windage and elevation hold-offs. There are some 1000 yard half MINUTE groups, but those are the winning groups, not all of them, and the average is probably more than twice that size. With super expensive barrels, actions, scopes, and so forth, not to mention a very, very few shooters who can do it, shooting from a perfect rest at a known distance with wind flags out the kazoo and sighter shoots. How about our National Matches. They have a 1000 yard Match there every year. Prone position with a leather shooting coat that virtually encases you in immovable armor, wind flags, spotters, unlimited sighter shots, etc. The Ten Ring is 20 inches in diameter, the X Ring is 10 inches. On the average, the best shooters in our country manage to lose 2 or 3 shots out of the 20 into the Nine Ring. Sometimes someone will shoot a perfect score, that's all shots in the 20 inch ring, TWO minutes of angle. The record is 200-15X; that is 20 shots within the 10 Ring with 15 of those in the 10 inch X ring (ONE minute of angle). Very good shooting, even for the guys who came in tenth or fiftieth or whatever, far better than I could ever do. I am not nor would I try to denigrate their skill, but when some one comes out with some really ridiculous claims just to sell a book, then he is cheapening their, and even his own, achievements.

[Cayoot]

In Carlos' book, he states that he had mounted an Urntle (misspelled) scope on the 50 cal M-2 and was shooting it single shot style. The individual in this event (the hamburger) was not riding the bicycle. He was pushing it because it was laden down with supplies and such for the enemy. (A common method of transporting supplies back then). So the individual was only walking and, as I said before, it was a C.O.M. shot. An exceptional shot, to be sure, but not an impossible one.

[StarMetal]

Cayoot,

That's how I read it, the boy was pushing the bike. I knew it was 50 cal gun of some sort.

Scrounger,

Yeah it's true what you say. But I do believe those Ace pilots did shoot down what they said as it had to usually be verified by other pilots. My friend Mike I speak of alot COULD make 400-450 elk shots with a Remington Model 700 30-06 with 4x12 scope. His brother Steve can too with a 264 Win Mag Model 70. I'm not good at all at aerial shooting but I have friends that are, also friends that can shoot running animals at distance too. My best and farther running animal shot was a whitetail doe running at 200 yards and I was using an Browining Winnie 1886 lever in 45-70 with 405 gr RCBS bullet standing and off hand. Most the time I never shoot at game running. I like to be a solid rest man and standing animal.

Joe

[Scrounger]

In Carlos' book, he states that he had mounted an Urntle (misspelled) scope on the 50 cal M-2 and was shooting it single shot style. The individual in this event (the hamburger) was not riding the bicycle. He was pushing it because it was laden down with supplies and such for the enemy. (A common method of transporting supplies back then). So the individual was only walking and, as I said before, it was a C.O.M. shot. An exceptional shot, to be sure, but not an impossible one.

I still have that $1000.... :grin:

[StarMetal]

44man

A larger caliber has more brass to have more variance or defects in it and it's tension then a smaller caliber does. One of the tricks to getting a milsurp shooting better is, if possible, to neck down military 30-06 brass because then you get a thicker neck to fit that big ass neck area in the chamber and more center the bullet.

Joe

[scrapcan]

I tried to read the whole set of posts, sorry if someone else has already stated this obvious factor.

I think the most critical component is the willingness and ability to keep learning. Learning comes form many places and fits in many circumstances in life, reloading and shooting are no exceptions.

Learning, is that not why all of us are here?

For instance, I have read many times on the boards things like this "I had a great load and then things went to pots". The person continued to LEARN what and why it went south and then LEARN how to fix it. Learning is the the key component.

[HickoryCreek]

You really believe this? I got a grand that says it can't. Five shots, one group, it makes it or it don't. Now if you back up and say you meant half-minute, that's a little different. I'd still be tremendously impressed and I would have to see it myself to believe it even then...


you guys can lay off the caffeine. Sorry I made a typo. I meant 5 inch group

SMALLEST HEAVY 5 SHOT GROUP

2.6002 ~ SKIP TALBOT: 1999 ~ Fall Match Palomino Valley, Reno, NV
3.2395 ~ CRAIG TAYLOR: 1997 ~ Posted in VHP 1997 #3

SMALLEST LIGHT 5 SHOT GROUP

2.97 ~ LYNN MCMURDO: July 6, 2002 ~ (World Champ.) NRA Center, Raton, NM
3.2763 ~ MATT HUSTON: July 2003 ~ (World Champ.) NRA Center, Raton, NM
4.091 ~ SKIP TALBOT
4.1563 ~ CRAIG TAYLOR: July 1997 ~ (World Champ.) NRA Center, Raton, NM
SMALLEST UNLIMITED 5 SHOT GROUP

3.064 ~ PAULA DIERKS: July 1, 1999 ~ (World Champ.) NRA Center, Raton, NM
6.875 ~ BRUCE LONGSON: 1998
7.6875 ~ KEVIN HUSEMAN ~ July 6, 1997 ~ (World Champ.) NRA Center, Raton, NM

Here's ya another one for under 5 inches

Ed Schooler
2004 August 20-22 Quantico, VA Regional FCSA 1000 yd. match.
First place Hunter Class 4.4952" 5 shot world record group.

Most of this stuff is from FCSA website.
some of these approach .25 moa Sorry I don't have the target to show you right now. Don't know if you would believe it anyway. Don't care either. I will leave you error free beings from my stupidity from here on.

[Blackwater]

Long range shooting is a subject that never fails to bring out the Doubting Thomases and the venom. Nevertheless, some amazing shooting has been done. If there weren't pics of Ed McGivern shooting those super speedy groups, he'd be called the biggest liar of all time. The doubters always want to claim that if YOU can't do the feat, and do it time after time repeadedly, that it can't in fact have EVER been done. Not good logic, IMO.

Now, do many fellas tell whoppers when it comes to shooting? Sure. Absolutely. That's why it can just ruin a man's reputation if too many stories are told about his shooting. I have a friend who used to be, before a serious injury, able to shoot aerial targets with boring regularity. Now you have to understand, he had to be USED to it, and had to practice for days before he did it to be able to do it consistently, but the boy's made a HEAP of money from doubters doing this, so .... He used to have an old Win. .22 pump, and he could take the gun from his shoulder, pump the spent round hard so that it flew up a good ways, and then mount the gun and shoot the .22 ctg. case out of the air. He'd miss now and then, but he hit far more than he missed WHEN HE'D BEEN PRACTICING THIS. That kind of thing takes extraordinary muscle memory, as evidenced by the fact that he had to have practiced these type feats for a week or two before being able to impress on demand. However, a FEW actually CAN accomplish this. I can't. I can hit maybe a coke can, but not ejected .22 ctg. cases! And for the coke cans, I have to practice, just like my buddy.

BTW, many who've never seen him shoot, and won't believe even the trustworthy who have, call him "Lyin' Jimmie." See what I mean about ruining a man's rep?

Long range shooting is no different. Jimmie and an old and now retired trooper I knew used to have the best eyesight of any human beings I've ever met persoanlly. The trooper could literally read license plates at 1/8 of a mile, and with good light, maybe further! I was walking to our stands with Jimmie once, and a small deer broke out across the clearing in front of us at near dead on 200 yds. I was carrying my rifle in a more ready position, and got on first, with my scope at 5x, and didn't see any antlers, so lowered my gun. Jimmie, who'd had his rifle slung across his back, fired about the time I got my gun all the way down. The deer flipped head over heels like a rabbit, and I turned to Jimmie and said, "Jimmie! That was a doe!" With clearly hurt feelings at my disparagement, he took instant offense, and said, "Like hell! That was a little button buck! Wanna' bet me?" Knowing all too well that he isn't a betting man unless he KNOWS he's gonna' win, I declined his offer. Sure enough, when we got there, it was a little button buck.

Great eyesight, which is something that I was never so lucky as to posess, seems to be a very consistent factor in the guys I've known who were really great shots, and I'm not just talking about shooting 3" groups at 3 or 400 yds., here, but more like 1" at 300, and maybe 400 on the odd occasion, and I'm talking 3 shots, not 5 or 10, too. The kind of rifles we po' boys in th' country use don't often come along that'll do that, but they DO come along a few times in a life. Jimmie does a lot of free gunsmithing and sighting in of rifles for a lot of folks, and he always takes note of any rifles that are particularly accurate when he does the sighting or other shooting of them. When he finds one that's a real shooter, he always tells the owner that if he ever sells or trades it, he'd be interested. Some of them come back to him later, and some of those, with some fine tuning and load development, prove to be REAL shooters, of the under .5 MOA variety, at least with tailored loads. Some do this now and then, and some consistently.

Well, he wound up with a .265 M-700 that proved to be one of those rifles. It would CONSISTENTLY shoot cloverleafs for 3 shots at 100, and he shot MANY 1" and less 3 shot groups at 300, and a few under 1" at 400 - again, for 3 shots. A 4th and 5th shot would always open the groups, but 3 could be depended on to cluster VERY closely. He knew not to shoot that rifle hot, lest the throat go bye bye on him, and he never shot more than 1 shot every 5 to 10 or even 15 minutes, so as to prolong this wondrous rifle's accuracy life. He also never shot it much at targets, and relegated it to a "meat gun" only, except for what shooting was needed to confirm POI, a new batch of bullets or powder, etc., plus he never shot more than 3 shot groups with it, saving all the accuracy life he could for game shooting.

He had an early Tasco scope, a 3-9x40, with the old "bullet drop compensator" dials, which he'd put white tape on and marked by actual shooting from 300-600 in 100 yd. increments. He also shot at 700, and knew where to hold at 700, bu the adjustments wouldn't allow a "dead on hold" at that range, so that's as far as he allowed himself to shoot. He had access to a piece of land almost right by the river where a train track crossed, and provided a sheltered (no wind, effectively) slit throug some prime woods of nearly a mile. He shot many deer at long range on those tracks. He had an old folding chair, the kind most school lunch rooms used to use, that he'd painted dull green, and he set it out in the woods at the best location he could find using the lay of the land to locate it. He tied out orange tape to trees every 100 paces, and his paces checked out consistently then to 99 per 100 yds., while mine were 105-106 per 100 measured yds. He had flags out to 700, so he could know almost instantly the range of any deer that showed itself. Then all it took was a quick twist of the elev. knob to the right range, and he shot off a Harris bipod (he'd sighted the gun & scope combo with this on, BTW, so the zeros would be "true") that he'd added extensions to, so it was the PERFECT height for shooting from THAT chair on THAT stand. He had to do a lot of trimming and adjusting before he got that just right, and I believe he had to make a 2nd pair of legs when he trimmed a tad too much off the ends. (Cont'd)

[Blackwater]

With that setup, he shot two deer at just over 700 (paces or yards, as you see fit), and many at 400 and beyond. That rifle burned in a home fire that destroyed almost all his worldly possessions. He hasn't found a replacement. Some folks are called "savants" when they can do miraculous things, like the character in "Rain Man" who could do math in his head that I'd have to check twice using a calculator, just to make sure I didn't make a proceedural error. There are 'savants' in the world of shooting, too, but it's darn sure hard to BE one of those folks. As I said, they DO call him "Lyin' Jimmie," but ONLY those who've never seen him shoot, and don't care to, do that.

Over the years, I've come to realize that a LOT of shooting really well is simply based on the real and abiding DESIRE to do so - almost to the point of obsession. A competitive but humble spirit also seems to help with the consistency of that, too. You have to be competitive enough to REALLY want to aim and hold just a tad finer than your competition, and you have to be humble enough that your ego doesn't heed or heighten the uncertainties involved, and break your spirit when you get beat now and then. Whole books have been written on the "mental game" involved in shooting, but if the essential desire and personality traits aren't there in the right ratios, and you're not a superior physical specimen with the ability to hold VERY steady, even if only for just long enough to squeeze one off, and if part of that physical prowess doesn't include really superior eyesight, then you'll never have to go all that far to be outshot. Personaly, I've always sought out better shots than myself, so I could learn more, and press myself to do better.

BTW, Jimmie also shot a running deer at 900 once, that had already been wounded. It was headed for a huge creek, where it was very doubtful it would ever be recovered if it made it to the edge. He was with a friend who had binocs, and he knew instantly that if he couldn't stop him, it was a wasted deer. He told the buddy to spot for him and tell him where the first shot hit. Behind and low, naturally, and getting that info, using a tight sling from offhand with his forearm rested against the truck, he fired again. That deer made about half a somersault, kicked a few times, and was dead. He'd broken its neck. Now that was LARGELY luck, and he'll be the first to tell you that, but .... how many folks do you know who'd even stand a prayer of a chance with a shot like that?

Having DONE a lot of shooting at really long ranges a LOT of times, really helps. Noticing time of flight, more "absorbing the feel" of it than more rational reasoning of it, also helps, particularly on running or moving game. It's been said that the real greats, like say Ted Williams when it comes to the subject of hitting a baseball for instance, "feel" their way through the moment, rather than "thinking" actually. Williams used to say that he could see the stitching of the ball as it made its way toward the plate, and I believe it. I've experienced enoug similar things that I think I understand what he meant. You don't perceive things like this when the higher functions of the brain are in use. You have to RELAX, and just LET it work rather than MAKE it work. The brain is a LOT more capable than many seem to want to believe, and if simply relaxed and ALLOWED to "feel" its way through such things as aerial shooting, shooting running game, etc., it'll do a whole lot better than when we try to steer it. It's been said that 90% of communication is NON-verbal, and I believe it. We are CONSTANTLY taking in WAY more info and data than we realize consciously that we're taking in. The brain can calculate the same way that it percieves, too, and it's those who USE this, whether they consciously understand it or not, who can DO the kind of shooting that engenders calumny among folks when such matters come up.

Like the bumble bee who doesn't know that engineers have determined that it shouldn't be able to fly, so it flies anyway, guys like my buddy "Lyin' Jimmie" just keep doing stuff that's "impossible." It's just a darn shame that their reputations have to be disparaged, but so far, nobody's done that after a good, healthy bet or two. A few never paid off the bets when they lost, but that's probably a good thing in the end. You see, folks who lose, and THEN don't pay up and make nice, don't ever tend to mention ol' Jimmie's name again much, in regard to lying or anything else, lest those who were there chide them and tell the Truth on them.

As to Carlos Hathcock's feats, the man PROVED himself many, many times over, and showed the caliber of a man he was time and time and time again. That ol' country boy was as humble as he was self assured. Some folks get that mixed up with other things, but that's just the way Carlos was, and any misunderstandings of him don't change a thing. If CARLOS HIMSELF said something, you could take it to the bank. If others told tales, then you may have call to question the tale. I have Carlos' tape. Just admired the man, and wanted to see and hear him on tape, so I could more aptly evaluate him as a person. If you've never seen the tape, get one BEFORE you disparage the man. He's EARNED at LEAST that much respect, CLEARLY. There's a LOT more to winning at Wimbledon or in the sniping fields than most will ever know about, and to see good men disparage a true American "hero", at least as the term's used these days, is upsetting to me. We tend to be so jaded these days, that we doubt EVERY so-called "unbelievable" story that comes out way. Much of the time there's reason for that. However, ANY proceedure or habit is NEVER a substitute for a real evaluation. As harried and hurried as we are today, we tend to forget this, and just do what we're used to doing "as a rule." That's sad, since it blinds us to the best examples we have of humanity all too often, and THAT is a loss we really can't afford, in the final analysis.

So .... don't knock ol' Carlos unless you've got more than just mere "suspicions" based on "tendencies" that you've heard, and never confirmed, O.K.? It just ain't right to do that, and more's lost than gained by doing so, and THAT diminishes all of us, and more particularly, the best and brightest from who we COULD learn much, if we'd only let it happen that way.

[waksupi]

For all those shooting game at 450-500 yards, and running game at 200 yards.

Stay the hell out of my mountains. We don't need you here.

[krag35]

yea, what he said!!!
krag35

[Buckshot]

.................I'm afraid I'm going to have to paint with a broad brush to answer this question:

"I want all of you to put on your thinking caps and tell me what the most important factor is in the loading process to get consistant accuracy."

It has been answered by several others the same way.

Consistancy is THE most "Important Factor", for ALL aspects.

If you were to write down ALL the variables involved in reloading, there are some which would constitute a larger effect on the target then others. Very possibly caseneck tension and or a consistant crimp if used would be one of the major items.

But again it's a broad brush and so far as neck tension, many BPCR practitioners effectively use NO caseneck tension in thier ammo and shoot exceedingly well. However, that is easly ignited BP and most of our shooting is smokless.

I'm also reminded of a story Dean Grennell once told about some 44 Mag he'd loaded. When he went to shoot them he had everything from bullets lodged in the pistol's barrel to some just barely flying a few feet. All based on incomplete combustion. He remarked that as he inspected the loaded ammo, he recalled putting on a crimp with a grip like a 'rabid weasel'. It turned out that while the crimp was severe, there was zero case tension. He said you could grip the bullet and turn it in the case. The powder was H110.

Yet for ultimate 'consistant accuracy' I will have to admit that a good consistant bullet pull is a major player. It becomes more apparent with the slower powders.

....................Buckshot

[sundog]

Buckshot, MOST 'Important Factor'? For rifle, pistol, straight wall or bottleneck, ???

I'll take a shot (pun intended) at this for bottle neck rifle. Concentricty, as in everthang has to be round and in line. That means action, bolt and bolt face and locking lugs, bbl, chamber, crown, cartridge... everthang. Some people talk about it in terms of runout, but that's only part of it. Even a round that approches 0 runout may not be up to task if it does not fit correctly in the chamber, i.e., brass is too small for the chamber and it lays down so the axis is not in line. To this end, brass and boolits must be uniform. Brass all the same weight and not lop sided - turn if necessary, or start with stuff known to be uniform. Brass must fit the chamber. And boolits with no unseen voids that will more than likely be off center - weight them and cull the light weights. Get even more interesting when you start figuring neck tolerances and boolit fit, because if eveything is in correct dimension, the boolit fit has everthing to do with adding to concentrity because the neck will help support the front of the case into correctly alignment, still alowing just enough expansion on firing. Point is, if the boolit starts crooked, it will wobble and yaw down the bbl, and then do the same externally.

This is assuming, of course, that you have equipment up to the task, sights, bbl, trigger, stock fit, etc. When you get REALLY anal about this, and spend huge sums of money doing it, you call the game Bench Rest. Mine is just one ten billionth of the world's opinion, so in the grand scheme of things, it does not count for much, except to me. sundog

[44man]

HEY, GUYS!!! This thing is wandering all over the place. You have seen from my post that Redding says consistant tension is very important and that the military addresses the problem and DOES MEASURE IT FOR MATCH AMMO.
Forget about all the other stuff.
I have asked all of you to figure out methods to measure this when loading and there is not one single idea so far. Is this just going to die as another post or are any of you going to THINK. Am I going to keep what I do a secret even if it is not the most accurate? I just might! I asked for ideas and trials to test theorys so we can make it happen and so far all of you have skirted the problem.
It seems as if most of you think it is not important. I get things like consistancy is the most important thing---WHY YES-- but none of you can figure out how to get it.
Come on guys, I am just one man, do you mean to say none of you can work on this?

[sundog]

Okay, 44Man, why don't you just tell us, and quit beating around the bush.... btw, if you keep what you know a secret, my life won't change. Spill the beans. sundog

[felix]

OK, because you asked, 44man, the very best, and most practical way is to use primers with strong enough force. Measure how far the boolit travels down the tube after firing. Suggest winnie rifle magnum primers, with a fairly light boolit to get a meaningful and measurable distance, and using a short barreled rifle. ... felix

[44man]

Felix, you have just destroyed the brass consistancy by making it necessary to resize it and expand it again. Whatever measurement it gives you is lost. How many would like to test 100 new cases by shooting primers only, measureing the distance a boolit is driven, then pounding the thing back out? Let alone the waste of good boolits.
Every time a case is shot, the brass changes. Work loads and the hotter loads have a different effect on the brass. Do you use different batches of brass for the hot load test and another batch for 1/2 gr lighter load?

[StarMetal]

Ok 44man, just like some professional quarter mile drag racers I knew, would change their engine oil after just one pass...one run, then put fresh in. Okay, lets apply this to shooting. You buy brand new virgin brass and prepare it to the ultimate. Then you shoot it...just that one time mind you...and then you either give it away or pitch it and start with new virgin brass again. The tension should be consistant within each lot.

Another would be to make a neck expander tool where the expander is straight like on some Lee dies, not the ball type or elipical type. Now this too fits into your press and is normal in every way while expanding the neck, but on the reverse stroke of pulling the brass off it....it then becomes special. How so? Well the expander shaft is mounted to a spring and the shaft is calibrated and numbered and there's an index line on the body of the tool. You graduatly start pulling your brass off the expander shaft and not how much the tension pulls the expander shaft down while trying to pull the brass off it with the ram. Now you see why I said the expand has to be straight because that most simulates a bullets sides. Then you just note the reading and sort the brass into groups. It's not like you fired the brass or ruined, you mearly expanded the necks out to receive the bullets and in doing so you got a reading of how much tension there is in that neck. I'll make you one up on my lathe.

Joe

[felix]

44man, primers won't expand the case as much as you think. ... felix

[scrapcan]

Well here goes a shot, afterall I am trying to learn and if I have to be beat down to learn so be it.

you could use an expandable mandrel and collet neck sizer die. The action would be based off of the shell holder/other means of indexing and not the case neck/sholder/length ect. You engineer the die to actuate off of the shell holder /other datum when the proper length is reached the collet sizes outside and the mandrel inside engages and expands from the inside. As you withdraw the case the collet and mandrel relax and you can get a consistent let off. No stetching or pull through to mess up all the work you went through to get concentricity. With the compound leverage presses that we have today you could even use this method to move the brass where you wanted, to keep necks thickness where you want it. having the collet and expandable amndrel would allow setting the die to be adjusted for different chambe dimensions also.

Would be a fun thing to be part of the team to design and manufacture this thing and to do it at a price that the members here could and would spend the money on.

Another idea would be to make a collet type seater die that would somehow keep the tension from getting extreme (on either end of spectrum). Should be asy to accomplish by modifiying a lee collet type sizing die. To me this may not be much of an idea beause you don't wan to change bullet dimensions by squeezing. Or maybe you do. you could go several thousands over your intended dimenstions and then squeeze it to where you wan to go. Kind of a neck/seater swage. I don't think this idea addresses the consistent neck tension theory.

Ok that was my wack at it. Now since the original poster will not share his ideas I say he should take it to the trenches, beat the rest of he competitors, right a book, and then see if the rest of us will buy it. I have bought alot of books and can glean something out of all of them, get some info to add to the toolbox and donate the damn thing to library so the next soul can read it without having to spend money.

44man, I think you are up to the task. Go forth and conquer. I will gladly read/ponder/consider the technique when it can be demonstrated,tested, and proven.

To the rest of the members. Sorry about my second set of statements. We have over 5 pages of posts and nothing new has been set forth. If we are trying for a record number of posts just say so, I am sure everyone will make a post. but what good is that lets learn something.

[StarMetal]

manleyjt

Well some of those pages were me and 44man doing some peeing experimentation and some shooting stories from our youth. hahahaha


Joe

[scrapcan]

Joe,

Maybe you guys invented a new kind of internet match. maybe the rest of us can get in on this type of fun. How do we get official targets and who do we send them to when we have done our best?

Honest I do enjoy some the discussions and comments, but a question was asked, we are all being told we are wrong, but no answer is being given.

On a more serious note (yes the above is just humor, I hope it was taken that way), I think you guys have alot to offer to the rest of us. Now get on with it or tomorrow you could be smacked by a bus and never get to share your wisdom. I am a young guy and have had the luck of having many friends who were much moer "experienced" and when I think of them now I have one thought that comes to mind.

here it is:

I wish I could have spent one more hour learning from them. I would hate for peopel to be saying that about anyone here.

And we are half done with a book by the length of the post. Too bad it is a comedy instead of a technical book on the subject at hand.

[44man]

OK Joe, we are starting to come up with stuff, thanks for starting it.
About new brass, it varies a lot too so it is no solution. Even keeping close track of how many times a piece of brass is shot will not help. I have measured new cases when seating and they were as bad as some I had fired 30 times.

[44man]

OK, OK guys, here is what I do! You see the spring steel rod attached to the bottom of the handle with a hose clamp? I drilled a hole through the handle that a small rod rides through. It is graduated and has a faucet washer on it. I just barely start the boolit with the normal handle, then finish by seating very slow with the spring steel rod. This will bend and pull the small rod through the hole. The rubber washer will stay at the graduation it took to push in the boolit so I can read it and sort them. Too easy for all of you I guess!

[44man]

This is the small metering rod. Just pull back the rubber washer for the next boolit.

[StarMetal]

Manley said: Maybe you guys invented a new kind of internet match. maybe the rest of us can get in on this type of fun. How do we get official targets and who do we send them to when we have done our best?

Well buddy let me tell you the good part. The group is called CAP, kinda like CAS for Cowboy Action Shooting...the CAP stands for C**K Action Pissing. You fellows can figure out the C word. The good part is that the Ranger Master, official scorers, and equipment inspectors are hot young babes...yup. Yall let me know if you want a membership and mind you no hanky panky on the pissing range. Best not to bring your wife or family. har har har

Joe

[MTWeatherman]

.44Man

If I understand correctly, you are using consistent seating pressure to accomplish consistent neck tension. I'll accept that but why not use a delicate spring scale attached to the reloading handle? It seems simpler.

However, seems to me you are accepting inconsistent seating depth because equal seating pressure may not result in equal seating depth. That affects two things...case volume and distance of bullet jump to the lands...which are now also inconsistent. Both of those also affect pressure buildup and in turn acceleration and muzzle velocity. You tell me that in your case that bullet neck tension is more important than seating depth for your firearm and I'll believe you. However, I will not remain convinced that it applies to all loads in all firearms. If you really want to achieve consistent accuracy it seems that you must find a means to achieve consistent tension and bullet seating depth. Not an easy task.

It would seem to me that the best hope would be to use virgin brass, fire it once then resize it to achieve as much as possible the same neck length in the case (bearing lenth of the neck is important also)...trim as necessary and then use a micrometer to measure the neck case wall and bullet to at least four places...then segregate and match equal size bullets to equally walled cases. Now use the best seating die available to get the most consistent seating depth possible.

Case tension is important in accuracy because if affects ignition...which in turn affects pressure buildup...which affects bullet acceleration and muzzle velocity...which affects acccuracy. However, other things also affect ignition...primer flame temperature and duration, primer seating depth, primer flash hole size, type of powder and its weight and volume, case capacity, bullet type (including weight, alloy, and size), bullet seating depth, etc. To maintain that case tension is the most important factor of all in this ignition and that the other factors taken individually or collectively are less important is an over simplification and IMO just not true. To use an extreme example, try using a teaspoon to measure your powder to see what happens to your accuracy. Or just mix up a bunch of primers...pistol and rifle, standard and magnum...throw them in bag and just grab one as you load. Seems to me, the variation in ignition that would result might be more important than the contribution of neck tension. You are correct in that since everyone is paying close attention with consistency in those other factors but not neck tension, you will improve your accuracy. However, give those other factors the same cavalier attitude reloaders give neck tension and accuracy results may well be worse.

If case tension were the most important factor, there would be no purpose in using Redding reloading equipment at all unless it were for speed. You could turn out your ammo with a $15 LeeLoader and a hammer...just pay attention to the case neck tension and head off for the next bench match. You use Redding equipment because it is able to achieve more consistency than the Lee Loader in all factors or steps in the reloading process

No flame intended here. However, seems to me that you accepted consistent reloading in all reloading aspects as a given. If your assumption is that all the steps except the case tension check are done consistently and on good quality equipment...case tension consistency now becomes priority one because you've eliminated all the others.

I remain convinced that the best answer to your original question is "consistency in all steps of reloading". There are so many variables involved that must be dealt with. All are important. No one said that case tension wasn't important...just that it can't be said to be the single most important factor.

[StarMetal]

Some of the most accurate shooting and loads I've seen were made on Lee Loaders. I understand that some of the benchresters use a similar type of reloading system.

Joe

[44man]

MT, I am only measuring the pressure to push in the boolit and the washer stays in place until reset. IT HAS NO EFFECT ON SEATING DEPTH. All boolits are seated exactly the same because the handle goes all the way down. I then crimp with a separate die.
This is not MAKING consistant seating pressure between cases. There is no way to do that. It only allows me to separate the different ones.
You are also adding other factors into the equation that are not needed to solve just the one factor I am trying to get you to make more accurate.
Spring scales are hard to use doing this as they bounce around and you have to watch it very close, pull it down in an arc and remember what the highest reading was. I tried it and because you don't have hold af anything connected to the press handle, the handle can slam down (and be pulled down with the spring scale) and with a light seating pressure case you will have no measurement. If the brass does not have enough tension, the handle can fall of it's own weight to seat a boolit, so how can you pull it down with a scale?
By holding the spring rod I have complete control of the handle and when the bullet is almost all the way in and the force needed to push in the boolit eases off, I am still in control so the handle does not fall. Remember that the press reaches maximum force as it goes over center at the bottom of the stroke. The rubber washer is still in place showing the highest seating pressure.
I have tried to explain to you that after all the other load work is done and you have the very best load worked out, that inconsistant case tension can blow all the hard work.
I am beginning to see what a teacher goes through. Have the class read a chapter and every single student will have a different interpretation and idea of what the book is all about. I can see that many of you do not read and understand, keep repeating stuff and I have to keep repeating.
And you have not read the response I received from Redding!!!! I will not repeat it, go back and read it.

[carpetman]

Gosh 44 man some dont understand? BTW what is consistancy? You keep using that word and I cant find it in my speller.

[44man]

Thanks for the laugh

[MTWeatherman]

Good explanation .44Man. I'll freely admit that I misunderstood the system...but do now. Thanks for explaining.

Actually, I had already read your response from Redding (as well as all the previous 88 posts on this thread) before posting. I used Redding as the example, not because of your experience with them, but because many consider them to be the premier reloading equipment...just a general statement aimed at nobody in particular. Sorry it came out that way...my choice of the word "you" was unfortunate.

[sundog]

Well, while y'all were pissing around with primers expanding cases, throwing away onceit farred cases, and hanging hose clamps on presses, I was out in the barn casting over 500 of the world's finest .22 boolits! sundog

[felix]

Amen, Sundog! Ye Ol weather was perfect for that today! Nice rain, about 1.5 inches. ... felix

[Buckshot]

..............AH, NOW I understand! All this time I thought you wanted us to:

44Man, "I want all of you to put on your thinking caps and tell me what the most important factor is in the loading process to get consistant accuracy. Yes, Joe, you are welcome!"

It appears I was in good company since it seems that what most the other posters assumed also. I will admit that I DID NOT read your post #34. I Figured I'd toss my supposition in amongst all the others, to wit:

Buckshot, "Yet for ultimate 'consistant accuracy' I will have to admit that a good consistant bullet pull is a major player. It becomes more apparent with the slower powders."

So post #34 had the answer to what we thought the question was......................:

"OK, some very good stuff, but none of you have touched on the most important item. CASE TENSION!"

"Now I am not talking about how tight the bullet is held, I am talking about each and every bullet being held with the exact same tension."

And then a further request, which I also missed, not having read # 34 ................:

"Is there an easy way to measure the seating pressure? Do we need electronic presses that measure the seating pressure? Yes we do but it is expensive and maybe too far in the future for us. Maybe someone can come up with strain gauges to work, I can't because I am limited in electronics, only spent years repairing TV's as a sideline."

"I have worked out a method to measure my seating pressure. Will I tell you? Not yet! I have taken pictures to post but I first want to turn this over to our resident genius. "

"Mr. Starmetal, are you listening? Will you solve the problem or are you just going to dispute everything I have said? Gee, this is fun!"

And then a bit of hand slapping .............................:

"I am beginning to see what a teacher goes through. Have the class read a chapter and every single student will have a different interpretation and idea of what the book is all about. "

Yes I can understand someone's frustration with that, as I have had it happen to me. I'm guilty of it here. Yet I'm hugging tightly to my chest the warm snuggly feeling that I at least hinted at the correct answer to the original question in post #1 :-)

I have to say your way of checking pressure is elegantly simple. A play on the 'bent arm' torque wrench pointer and scale. It's acting on one of the 2 places where the effort required may be recorded. The other place is not moveable since it is the bullet seating stem.

If we were to take a Lee type seater and place a piezio electric cell on the underside of the stop cap, we could read pressure as a value of current flow, or resistance. A very crude representaion would be the old carbon pile voltage regulators. The harder you press the discs, the more current would flow, and vice versa.

Read the result off a meter at eye level. I can operate a toaster, turn most lights on and off and understand the + & - on a battery, but beyond that my knowledge of current electronics is nil. When I got out of the Navy and went back to college, I bought a Cannon 'Pocket' calculator that cost $48, took 8 AA batteries and provided 4 functions plus percentages. Now they extract cube roots, and do engineering calculations and cost $2.98.

My point being is that if someone were interested and persued electronics, they might know of a source for such pressure sensitive devices (crystals matrix?) and where you could buy them for a few bucks a pound?

.................Buckshot

[StarMetal]

Spock Buckshot

Very logical post. I'll start on it straight away.

Number One Joe

[44man]

I agree, very good thoughts. Now we need some of the smarter guys then me to come up with something that would be cheap. Fixed income makes me cringe when the powder supply gets low! Need something in the $25 to $30 range. (Or less.)
I know there are some of you out there because I consider that the dedicated gun nut is 1000% smarter then the general public.

[44man]

Hey Joe, go back to the informal contest post and see the group I shot at 100 yd's with my old Ruger .44.

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

are you buying eliminating variables...? As in consistent pouring motion, pot temp, and cooling sequence. That has been the key for me in casting 32 calibre Schuetzen boolits for my 32 Miller Short that will breechseat 10-shot groups that shoot .75" moa at 200 yards on a regular basis. Ditto for my Pope-barrelled HW, and everything I cast for.

Rich

[44man]

I have measured a pile of my boolits to see if this was some problem but it wasn't. In fact, I found the problem shooting jacketed bullets for silhouette. It is only the variance in the brass structure and hardness that causes it. Breech seating a boolit completely does away with the problem and may be why they shoot so good. For BPCR, I don't size any more then needed to push boolits in by hand. I was not sizing at all for a while but found it was better to get a closer fit by jacking up the size die with a thick washer so it just barely sizes. ( I didn't adjust the die because I full length my revolver cases with the same die by removing the washer, which is almost 9/16" thick.) I don't have to expand the cases at all but it helps to put a little flare on them. I don't remove the flare because it helps center the front of the case. I guess that is as close to Schuetzen as can be had.

[StarMetal]

Hey Joe, go back to the informal contest post and see the group I shot at 100 yd's with my old Ruger .44.

44man,

Ok, I went back and looked at, so what??? You said you put 4 shots into, what was it, 1 3/4 in? I put three into a hair over 1 inch. :razz:

Joe

[lovedogs]

You've posed an impossible question. As some have stated consistency plays a big role. Without that, it's all for naught. If I have to champion just one factor I'd say a good barrel. Of course, a good barrel won't shoot junk well. And a poor shooter can't turn in good marks. But without a good barrel it's not possible to shoot well. I'd say that's the foundation, where it has to begin. How am I doing?

[lovedogs]

Scuse me! I just reread your question. Now I feel like an idiot. You asked about the loading process. I got to reading all the other guys comments and forgot the question. Oh well, I guess that's what comes with old age. In the loading process? Mechanical process or choice of materials? Hmmm. Guess I'll have to go back to the basics again. The most basic is the bullet. We are talking about cast bullets in this forum so I'd have to say the bullet. It's not reloading per se, but I look at making my own bullets as part of my reloading process so I think it's fair to state that. If you make a poor bullet nothing else in the reloading procedure will make it shoot accurately. Now how am I doing? Getting closer to what you want to hear? Hey, I'm trying!

[44man]

Joe, that was 4 in 1-1/4". Years ago I had groups as tight with open sights but now I would have to ask "What sights, you mean there are sights on this thing?" Then you have to remember that the red dot covers 5" at 100 yd's, pretty hard to hold it in the same place.

[StarMetal]

Think how much iron sights cover at distance.

Joe

[44man]

Yeah, but back then I could see. A six o'clock hold on a bull was very good. Much better then blocking out the whole bullseye.

[mike in co]

Consistency in accuracy requires consistency in reloading. That consistency is required in all the steps involved...resizing, bullets, alloys, primers, powders, powder measuring, etc.

Everyplace you lose consistency, odds are you will be losing some accuracy.
consistancy....data collection, consistancy, repeatability, consistancy, an open mind...

[mike in co]

I want all of you to put on your thinking caps and tell me what the most important factor is in the loading process to get consistant accuracy. Yes, Joe, you are welcome!

there is no ONE thing....
its a process with lots of steps.....
mess up anyone step and you are lost....
so....the magic answer DOES NOT exist.

[44man]

I don't know, maybe I phrased the question wrong. What I was really asking was that after going through all of the accuracy work, finding the right boolit, the right powder, primer, charge and doing all the consistant things that you need to do, what single thing can screw up all that work? Maybe I should apologize for not being able to make myself more clear. You have all given great answers but I was expecting all that work to be done and you have already found the best loads, etc.
I still say a wide variation in case tension will negate all of your work. Why else do some shooting sessions result in good groups and the next time they are terrible with no change in what you have done? And what about those flyers that are way out? A lot of people say that flyers show the gun doesn't like that boolit! Why then, did most go in a tiny group? Could you maybe think that it was the way the boolit was held in the brass?
Anyway, I really got a lot of discussion going and all of the answers and thoughts were very good. All of us did a lot of thinking. I just hope some of you try my way of seating and see if it helps. Don't quit on me, test and post!

[StarMetal]

Yeah, but back then I could see. A six o'clock hold on a bull was very good. Much better then blocking out the whole bullseye.

44man,

I had RK surgery a long time ago when they were still using the knife, not this new laser stuff. It worked out so so, but my eyesight is really screwed up. I think shoot better then good with my bad eyes. Let me tell you too that I have a vision problem even when using a scope. So you fellows that have good eyes, or eyes that are corrected by glasses or contacts...you're lucky. My night vision has gone to hell and if I'm driving and it's bright out and I look at the intrument panel, I can't see because I get like a snow blindness from the bright light and it takes alot longer then normal to adjust back.

Joe

[45 2.1]

I still say a wide variation in case tension will negate all of your work.

Good point in revolvers. You've said that when you sort the like tension handgun rounds into lots and shoot the same tension ones that they shoot good groups. That is great for revolvers, but that has some big problems with bottleneck rifle rounds. In those, if your useing a less than chamber size neck diameter and annealed case necks, you can very well end up with poor groups while if you use cases that the necks are as hard as the proverbial brass tack, they probably will shoot into a much smaller group.

[44man]

45, not so! doesn't matter if they are a little loose or very tight. As long as all are the same. Some guns AND LOADS might like them all a certain way and maybe real tight boolit pull works better in some guns. You just do not want one boolit very loose and the next very tight when you are shooting for tight groups. All guns are not the same and if you find what case tension is best, then you still have to make sure all of your loads are the same for that gun. Even rifles can benefit from getting all of them the same. After all, what harm can it to to get them sorted into even lots for shooting groups?
Most of the time when you anneal rifle brass it makes the cases even, but can you really be sure? This does lessen the tension and if the powder or primer you are using does not like this situation, accuracy can go south. Once you have the perfect load in a rifle, annealing the brass can have a drastic change with the burn rate. Yes, there is a whole lot more to this case tension problem then any of us can predict. If you are getting good accuracy from your rifle with hard brass and then anneal them to find the groups suck, isn't it proof that case tension is important? But again, that is not the basic problem I was discussing. If your gun and load likes hard brass, I want you to sort by boolit seating pressure to see if even tension will give you tighter groups. Don't jump from annealed brass to hard brass and expect good results.
Remember that I said all loading procedures and accuracy problems should have already been worked out. You then should be able to tighten groups by sorting the case tension. In a revolver it can be drastic, as much as a foot, but in a rifle it might be only 1/4" or less. Is it worth the trouble for you to experiment? That is up to you and how happy you are with what you are shooting.

[45 2.1]

Well 44man, for straight walled cases, your method should work pretty well, but you need to rethink it for BOTTLE NECKED CASES. I really think your off track there.

[StarMetal]

What's the difference if it's a straight wall or a bottleneck...a bullet doesn't know what it's seated in? Other then straight walled cartridges are of a bigger diameter usually, so more brass to grip the bullet.

Joe

[44man]

45, why would I be off track? Joe has it right! I can't imagine that you think it is less important. Have you tried it?

[45 2.1]

45, why would I be off track? Joe has it right! I can't imagine that you think it is less important. Have you tried it?

If your convinced you and Joe are right, then thats ok and you'll never get any better results than your getting.

[StarMetal]

Bob, Bob, Bob,....whoa....I'm getting supreme results with 99.9999 percent of my firearms. Have you ever stopped to think that perhaps the one custom 260 I have may have a problem...RELATED...to the gun itself? That has been know to happen you know. Now I don't know about 44man, hell he doesn't even know rifle and pistol primers can be swapped in certain situations. Guess he hasn't experimented as much as us more experienced reload such as you and I.....so there's probably alot of other things he hasn't figured out....yet.

Tell you one thing Bob, I see why now you don't divulge some of your techniques and experience....and loads.

Joe

[trk]

I want all of you to put on your thinking caps and tell me what the most important factor is in the loading process to get consistant accuracy. ....

In one sentence:

The process must leave nothing out of being questioned, it must be repeatable - changing only ONE thing at a time and take good notes.


That is the Attitude.

[45 2.1]

Bob, Bob, Bob,....whoa....I'm getting supreme results with 99.9999 percent of my firearms. Have you ever stopped to think that perhaps the one custom 260 I have may have a problem...RELATED...to the gun itself? That has been know to happen you know. Now I don't know about 44man, hell he doesn't even know rifle and pistol primers can be swapped in certain situations. Guess he hasn't experimented as much as us more experienced reload such as you and I.....so there's probably alot of other things he hasn't figured out....yet.

Tell you one thing Bob, I see why now you don't divulge some of your techniques and experience....and loads.

Joe

Joe, you haven't got a 6.5 Swede and this is what its for. Your last sentence is partially correct, I do it slowly, when the right question is asked.

[StarMetal]

Bob,

I'm working on getting a 6.5 Swede in the future.

Joe

[Bucks Owin]

I want all of you to put on your thinking caps and tell me what the most important factor is in the loading process to get consistant accuracy. Yes, Joe, you are welcome!

"Neck pull" and consistent ignition IMHO....

Dennis

[Bucks Owin]

"Neck pull" and consistent ignition IMHO....

Dennis


Gee, after reading through this whole thread I hope I didn't reopen a worm container! :-D

Some great posts in here though....

Dennis :Fire:

[StarMetal]

Dennis,

Nah, you didn't open any worms. In fact the thread kind of fizzed out, but if you can contribute please do so. I know myself and 44man would read what you have to say with interest.

Joe

[Nrut]

Dennis,

Nah, you didn't open any worms. In fact the thread kind of fizzed out, but if you can contribute please do so. I know myself and 44man would read what you have to say with interest.

Joe

Same here Bucks....

[jhalcott]

consistent practice with bad for the gun ammo will give consistently poor results. To get good consistent accuracy you need to know WHAT to change to make the ammo better,therfore more accurate.Of course this means you have to shoot more.Which invariably makes YOU a better shot! My casting/reloading is more a therapeutic and relaxation thing than a "beat the other guy" thing. I KNOW how far away I can hit some one with a snubby,and how close I can get to a deer with out being seen .different things and different reasons!

[Bigjohn]

Well, this thread has been one real eye opener; some of it informative and some a little concerning.
I reload for my S&W .357 (the laws here prohibit me owning a larger calibre for competition, IPSC) and through my RCBS jr2 press I can feel differences in the effort required to size, neck expand and seat projectiles. Before reading this thread I have never given consideration to the effects this would have on my accuracy. At this stage this has not concerned me greatly due to the nature of the competition, the short period of time I have owned the handgun and that I am concentrating on loads for a BPCR.

In recent experience with shooting groups trhrough the 45/70 BPCR, I have noted that with the same load my group progresses as a set of mini groups within the main group for no currently explainable reason. Simular to somone shoot several different batches of ammunition which were mixed together. These mini groups can consist of a single elongated hole containing three shots or so while the main group spreads out to three inches square or so. As these loads are assembled one at a time (normally the previous evening) all carefully weighed etc there seems to be no other explaination other than neck tension.

If one is aiming to achieve the smallest possible grouping of shots on a target at any set distance (from 0 to infinity), then I believe that CONSISTENCY is the key word. From the casting process through the reloading process and in the shooting procedures; hence any aspect that would assist a person in achieving their goal should be tried.
I is my belief that there are too many things; more than we are discussing in this thread, that effect the accuracy an individual can achieve from any given firearm. The fun, the enjoyment, the pleasure, the knowledge, the skill etc. come from our continuing efforts by whatever means or process to achieve our aims, be it the smallest group in the world or the meat on the table at mealtime.

Reading this thread has been very interesting to so the least and it confirms the old saying "Ask a question of ten people and you will get --- answers or more."

John.

[Bass Ackward]

Yea. Case neck tension is very important. But I can't get overly excited about trying to measure it. In my case, I use flat punches that may allow a bullet to start in a little crooked which will be more difficult to seat, thus giving a false impression. Sometimes the tension is so tight that you will hear a noise when seating that sounds like the sound a submarine hull makes in the movies when they have gone below "maximum" depth. And the pitch of this sound and force changes with bullet hardness and case life span.

Many people don't realize just how much it takes to get a good burn in a straight case. Take some 300 grain Hornady XTPs I loaded yesterday for my 44 Mag I am trying to break in. I used 16.1 grains of Blue Dot and was surprised that that was only 98% burn. MAX charge! Now that is with a HEAVY, jacketed bullet. Imagine a 250 grain lead PB?

The slower you go in powder speed, the harder it is to get ignition and eventually you flat out don't get it even using all the tricks. If you don't get it, you get poor grouping that just happens to look like a flier. But if you will take the same loads and use no crimp at all, you will see that it is just part of an extremely large group that comes from bad ignition. Try it next time you load and see. Crimp is a very valuable lesson too magnified by use in a handgun.

Proper powder speed selection negates ignition problems that must be "gimiced" to perform. And brass under any method is a poor "hope" to control it on a consistent basis if you want top end accuracy. What is so hard to understand from all the "standard loading practices we are bombarded with is that the velocity advantage gained with slow for cartridge powders is often minimal unless you are stressing the limits or shooting really soft lead.

[Bucks Owin]

I'm a real stickler when it comes to case prep as I feel it's the one place where I can have some real effect on consistency. My cases get their primer pockets cleaned each time they are loaded and flash holes get a #40 drill bit spun in them. Cases get a cleaning soak in thinner to remove all gunk inside the case and are dried with compressed air. Cases are trimmed to uniform length for uniform crimps. I only size about 3/4 of the case for better fit in the chambers and I keep flare to a minimum. These steps help case life as well as accuracy. Cases are then primed with a hand tool....

It's a lot of time to spend fussing with cases but I think it's time well spent in the quest for accuracy. I realize that someone who shoots hundreds of rounds in a weekend match etc and uses a progressive loader can't go to this degree but since I'm more of a BR shooter, I don't have hundreds of cases a week to process and enjoy time spent at the bench anyway....


Dennis

FWIW, unless I'm loading "redline" type loads I don't bother with weighing each charge though. I check every fifth charge out of the measure and am able to "throw" charges to within 1/10th gr. I don't think weighing powder to the "nth degree" has as much effect on accuracy as people think. I'd rather spend time on getting consistent ignition than I would on weighing powder charges.

[44man]

Bucks, you are doing it right. The case is more important then what you put in it.