38 special and 38+p powder selection and velocity

[Magnum0710]

I'm working on some load development and was wondering if anyone here could give me an idea of what I'm working with. I've worked up a few 38 loads but they were all used in a 4 inch 357 magnum. I recently added a 38 snubby to my collection so I decided to rework my loads and I've worked them up to where they are suitable in both my guns.
When I was using them in a 357 I still worked up but the 357 handled max 38+p loads like nothing. The 38 snub has been a different story. I've gotten just under max but the max loads felt like they would be too much for the gun with extensive use. I'm using 158 grain cast SWCs from Missouri Bullets and worked up with Win 231 and HS6. Here is where I topped out.

4.2 grains Win 231 max standard pressure
4.5 grains 231 max +p
6.2 grains HS6 max standard pressure
6.5 grains HS6 max +p

The book max for +p is 4.7 grains 231 and 6.7 grains HS6. Lyman goes higher with 231 but 4.7 was the max with other sources. Both felt like they'd be too much over time. The HS6 seemed more forgiving than 231, I really don't feel I should go past 4.2 grains 231 period. I could probably go to the 6.7 max on HS6 but it would be for limited use.
It looks like 6.5 grains HS6 is going to be the winner when it comes to serious use.
Unfortunately I don't have a chronograph yet but I was hoping someone here could give me an idea of what velocities I can expect from these loads out of a snub nose?
I highly doubt 4.2 grains of 231 will hit even 800 fps from a 2 inch barrel. I do think 6.5 grains HS6 should get me above 800 fps. It is a +p load but just barely.
While every gun is different I found a thread where a guy was getting an average of 938 fps with 6.5 HS6 under a 158 swc from a 4 inch 686. Just guesstimating from those numbers I should hit over 800 easily from a 2 inch but maybe I'm wrong?
I guess the lesson here is that I really need to get a chronograph!

[Wayne Smith]

You must specify which snubby. I have a Colt Agent (aluminum frame) and a S&W Model 19 2" - and they do NOT get all the same ammo!

[Magnum0710]

I have a Rock Island m206, it's basically a knock off Detective Special. It handles factory +p like a champ. I ran some Federal Punch 120 grain +p and it was pleasant to shoot. It handled the max +p loads just fine but I just want to try and reduce wear and tear. I emailed Armscor and they told me it is rated for +p but they don't recommend a steady diet, which is usually what all companies say about +p ammo. Popular belief is that it's not rated for +p because it only says 38 special.
I think the best solution is to go into +p territory but stay under max loads. I think 6.5 grains HS6 is probably my best bet but if I can safely get over 800 fps with 231 I'd be really happy. I'd rather save my HS6 for 357 magnum but if I have to use it for 38 I will. I'm not looking to get 950-1000 fps out of a snub, just trying to get to an adequate load. I see alot of factory 158s only getting 750 fps or so out of 2 inch barrels.
I've heard of magnum primers working better with HS6, perhaps I should rework the HS6 loads with magnum primers?

[Winger Ed.]

It can be a bit of a hassle, and you'd need to take certain precautions, but I'd keep 'em separate for the two guns.

Depending on which one you have,, some .38s gave up some strength to save weight.
If you have one of those, they really aren't made to be fired a whole lot before they sort of wear out.
Hot loads are the best way to get there with one.
Sort of like your car-- it may be able to do 120mph, but it'll last longer if ya keep it under 85.

I've heard of various Police Depts. where undercover officers and detectives carry a small .38, but will
do their annual qualification with a regular issue 'range gun'.
The duty load may be a +P, but they try to keep the 'mileage' off of them.

However; the mild loads the .38 will do well and live a long time with will be rather disappointing to fire in the .357.

A simple solution might be to load the ammo for the .38 with HBWC or DEWCs.
And loads for the .357 with something bigger like a Keith style SWC.

[Outpost75]

You also want to measure barrel-cylinder gap. If gap is at max 0.008" +P ammo will give no more velocity than standard-pressure ammo in a gun with gap at minimum 0.004".

You really want to take feeler gates to the store with you and if gap is over 0.008" don't buy the gun. I have seen NIB revolvers these days with gaps as large as 0.010".

[Magnum0710]

I have a Rock Island 206, it's all steel so definitely not a lightweight alloy frame or anything. It is cheap but surprisingly it's decent quality. It's not as good as my Security Six but it's not bad for what it is. It is rated for +p but they don't recommend a steady diet which is what all companies say about +p ammo. I got it for a truck gun and occasional carry when I'm in the mood for a snubby. Luckily I picked it up when I did, my current edc has been giving me issues so I've been carrying it until I get things worked out.

[Magnum0710]

I guess the issue I have isn't so much with standard pressure but low velocity. Looking at tests of the factory FBI loads which are +p, even when they don't expand they still don't get the penetration I'd like to see going less than 800 from a snubby. I can't say forsure but I'm guessing a normal SWC wouldn't go much deeper at low velocity. Unless I'm wrong and a hard cast swc would go deeper than a swaged bullet?

[Kosh75287]

There's a load using RedDot and 158 gr. LSWCs that will give 1000 f/s from a 2" vented revolver barrel. I won't repeat it here, but it made me appreciate Alliant RedDot (or PROMO) for use in .38 Special. Alliant Unique is also a stellar propellant for 38 Spl., as well as about 95% of all other pistol/revolver rounds in common use, today.
Red Dot is slightly slower burning than Bullseye, which is the gold-standard for reduced velocity .38 Spl. loads. Red Dot will do anything that Bullseye will do, plus a few things that BE will not. For higher-performance loads in .38 Spl., Unique is an excellent propellant.

[P Flados]

I used QL to estimate. I reduced results by 50 fps for cylinder gap. I set barrel length at 3.7" (QL uses breech to muzzle). Seating depth was 0.360".

I do not expect the below to be very "accurate", but the differences between loads should be reasonable.

HS-6 will give good velocity (slightly better than Unique), but expect it to be dirty. Not that dirty matters for a snubby SD load if that is what you are thinking.

The 4.5 of 231 and 6.5 of HS6 did show as +P and the other 2 showed as high in the band for "regulars".

4.2 grains Win 231 est 734
4.5 grains 231 est 774
6.2 grains HS6 est 792
6.5 grains HS6 est 828

[dverna]

I am a KISS person. IMO some people overthink this kind of stuff.

50 fps one way or the other is not going to "make or break" a load. I would rather have one load that works in everything.

If these are SD loads, you may find the cast bullets form Missouri Bullets too hard. My suggestion is buy some XTP's, or other good commercial jacketed bullet, for "serious work" and practice with cast.

Here is data on bullets shot from 2 and 4" barrels in .38:
https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/revolver-ballistics-test/#38spl

Here it is for .357:
https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/revolver-ballistics-test/#357mag

300 jacketed bullets will last a lifetime and cost $100. Cheap insurance for something that may save your life.

[Magnum0710]

I used QL to estimate. I reduced results by 50 fps for cylinder gap. I set barrel length at 3.7" (QL uses breech to muzzle). Seating depth was 0.360".

I do not expect the below to be very "accurate", but the differences between loads should be reasonable.

HS-6 will give good velocity (slightly better than Unique), but expect it to be dirty. Not that dirty matters for a snubby SD load if that is what you are thinking.

The 4.5 of 231 and 6.5 of HS6 did show as +P and the other 2 showed as high in the band for "regulars".

4.2 grains Win 231 est 734
4.5 grains 231 est 774
6.2 grains HS6 est 792
6.5 grains HS6 est 828

Thank you for that! I just figured out I'm supposed to reply with quote I didn't realize that was there.
HS6 is a little dirty but it's not as bad as using it for target loads. I'm actually going to rework my HS6 loads using magnum primers, it's supposed to help alot. Even still I definitely don't mind it with standard primers. It is a self defense load, mostly a woods load if I'm unable to carry my 4 inch 357 but it will also be in my SHTF stockpile. Kind of an all around use type of deal.
My theory seems to be correct that HS6 is the way to go. Your QL estimates are close to my own estimates. I got mine for seeing what others chronographed so you're definitely not too far off. In any case it seems like HS6 is the way to go. The standard pressure HS6 load gets more speed than the +p 231 load. The standard pressure HS6 load gets me very close so I may even go that route. I want to get a chronograph soon but for now I think I'm going to keep on with HS6. I mostly use 231 for range loads anyway, even in other calibers it never gets me where I want to be. Thank you again!

[Magnum0710]

I am a KISS person. IMO some people overthink this kind of stuff.

50 fps one way or the other is not going to "make or break" a load. I would rather have one load that works in everything.

If these are SD loads, you may find the cast bullets form Missouri Bullets too hard. My suggestion is buy some XTP's, or other good commercial jacketed bullet, for "serious work" and practice with cast.

Here is data on bullets shot from 2 and 4" barrels in .38:
https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/revolver-ballistics-test/#38spl

Here it is for .357:
https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/revolver-ballistics-test/#357mag

300 jacketed bullets will last a lifetime and cost $100. Cheap insurance for something that may save your life.

I do overthink things a little, I guess I just want to get the most out of the little 38. The loads do work in both my guns, it's just that I can push the 38 a little harder in my 357 magnum. My target loads work great in both guns, 3.2 grains 231 under a 158 and 3.6 grains 231 under a 105.
I am very familiar with the Lucky Gunner tests and you're right, normally 50 fps won't make or break a load. The Lucky gunner tests are also what convinced me I need to push the SWCs a little faster. I'm trying to build a woods load but would probably use it for SHTF stock as well. Looking at the LG tests none of the factory FBI loads make it past 18 inches even when they don't expand. Maybe it's because they're swaged and not hard cast but I'd just feel better having my loads go a little faster than 750 or so.
It looks like my +p HS6 load will get me in the range I want to be in. It's barely a +p load anyway, max is 6.7 but max standard pressure is 6.3 grains.

[jdgabbard]

Been thinking about buying one of the M206s for a while, but just didn't care for the whole parkerizing on a revolver idea...

That said, I think the biggest issue you're going to have is getting the velocity you want from a short barrel. I've moved to 125gr bullets in the snub, using the MP357-125-HP over 5gr of Unique. It's been an accurate load in all my guns, and isn't too bad in a Taurus 85 UltraLight either. However, there is a LOT of muzzle and cylinder flash to that load. It also bakes on the carbon really well - Hoppes 9 has to soak for a while to begin breaking it down... I've been considering moving over to Power Pistol, which has a max load of 6.5gr for a 125gr Jacketed Bullet at +P velocities. But even then, the velocity in a 4" barrel is only stated to be 1000fps.

This brings me back to looking at old data, in the Lyman 45th there is a load with Unique and a 120gr bullet that states it will go 1132fps. Knowing that, I'm fairly certain that modern revolvers were not made to the same strengths as our older examples. All of the light weight pocket revolvers are built to weight and price points. Which is why I continue to carry my pocket tank, a Ruger SP101 in 38spl. That gun would likely handle 38-44 loads just fine if I wanted it to.

For your application, unless you're just wanting to keep the 158gr, I would consider lighter boolits if you're wanting to get more velocity.

[Magnum0710]

Been thinking about buying one of the M206s for a while, but just didn't care for the whole parkerizing on a revolver idea...

That said, I think the biggest issue you're going to have is getting the velocity you want from a short barrel. I've moved to 125gr bullets in the snub, using the MP357-125-HP over 5gr of Unique. It's been an accurate load in all my guns, and isn't too bad in a Taurus 85 UltraLight either. However, there is a LOT of muzzle and cylinder flash to that load. It also bakes on the carbon really well - Hoppes 9 has to soak for a while to begin breaking it down... I've been considering moving over to Power Pistol, which has a max load of 6.5gr for a 125gr Jacketed Bullet at +P velocities. But even then, the velocity in a 4" barrel is only stated to be 1000fps.

This brings me back to looking at old data, in the Lyman 45th there is a load with Unique and a 120gr bullet that states it will go 1132fps. Knowing that, I'm fairly certain that modern revolvers were not made to the same strengths as our older examples. All of the light weight pocket revolvers are built to weight and price points. Which is why I continue to carry my pocket tank, a Ruger SP101 in 38spl. That gun would likely handle 38-44 loads just fine if I wanted it to.

For your application, unless you're just wanting to keep the 158gr, I would consider lighter boolits if you're wanting to get more velocity.
The only reason I'm looking for speed is to increase penetration, my carry loads are 120 grain +p and they get about 900 fps from most snubs. I think what I really need to do is find a place to shoot outdoors and see what my loads can really do.
I don't know if the hollow point slows them down or if it's cause they're swaged and not cast, but looking at tests of factory +p FBI loads they just don't get the penetration I'd want for a woods load.
As for the 206 I like it a lot! I'm surprised at how well it carries. If only they made it in 357 magnum! The parkerizing isn't horrible although they do have a nickel plated model. It was hard to find for a while but they've been popping up online recently. I got the parkerized model with spurless hammer. I mostly shoot double action anyway so it made sense for me. I used to have the EAA Windicator 357 but traded it towards my Security Six. Overall I like the 206 better but since the EAA is a 357 it's kind of a toss up. The 206 is easy to work on if you need to. Also, it carries surprisingly well. It's not a pocket gun but it carries really well on a belt. I've been carrying it since my EDC has been acting up but I got it to carry when I might have to leave it in the car and for knock around use. I'll probably load it with half snake shot and half hardcast when I'm doing yard work this summer. It's heavy but it's lighter than the EAA was. I'm probably going to pick up some Pachmayr Compaq grips for the Detective Special and put em on the 206. The wood grips aren't bad and they conceal nicely but anything less than a textbook grip and they beat your hand up. The plastic grips are too big, I could probably pull it off but the wood grips carry better. The Pachmayr grips should be about perfect, easier to shoot than wood and easier to hide than the big plastic grips.
If I find the right deal on an old Speed Six or SP101 it will probably get traded in towards it but for right now it fits my needs. I could've got a Taurus 605 for a little more but I'd rather have 6 shots over 5 and I've never had a Taurus revolver. I have a G3C that's been great but at the time I didn't have a lot to spend so the 206 fit the bill.

[20:1]

I have a Rock Island m206, it's basically a knock off Detective Special. It handles factory +p like a champ. I ran some Federal Punch 120 grain +p and it was pleasant to shoot. It handled the max +p loads just fine but I just want to try and reduce wear and tear. I emailed Armscor and they told me it is rated for +p but they don't recommend a steady diet, which is usually what all companies say about +p ammo. Popular belief is that it's not rated for +p because it only says 38 special.
I think the best solution is to go into +p territory but stay under max loads. I think 6.5 grains HS6 is probably my best bet but if I can safely get over 800 fps with 231 I'd be really happy. I'd rather save my HS6 for 357 magnum but if I have to use it for 38 I will. I'm not looking to get 950-1000 fps out of a snub, just trying to get to an adequate load. I see alot of factory 158s only getting 750 fps or so out of 2 inch barrels.
I've heard of magnum primers working better with HS6, perhaps I should rework the HS6 loads with magnum primers?

Since the manufacturer doesn't recommend a steady diet of +P, and intentionally didn't mark the gun "+P", I'd stay out of it myself. I'd suggest std pressure wadcutters for the snubby. Please notice that I said "std pressure", and not "target" loads. Most 2 inch 38 Special +P loads don't generate enough velocity to facilitate bullet expansion, some 4 inchers don't either. Even factory loads. Personally, I'm a bit leery of subjecting imported guns to pressures they're obviously not designed to withstand anyway. This is where the lowly wadcutter shines, since it is not designed to expand anyway. It is designed to cut a clean hole in its target for the full length of its travel. Many LEOs carry wadcutters in their backup revolvers. Skip the +P stuff entirely and load the 357 as a 357, and the 38 as a standard pressure 38 Spl. Here's a bit of reading material for you to ponder. Yes, I am aware that they are using clear ballistics blocks, which aren't the same as the FBI organic gelatin but everything here is done consistently the same way with the same materials for the sake of comparison.

Ed Harris: https://www.hensleygibbs.com/edharris/articles/Revisiting%20The%20Double-End%20Wadcutter%20and%20the%20FBI%20Load.htm

Lucky Gunner gel tests. Note how hamstrung the 38 Spl is with a two inch barrel. Lots of pics!: https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/revolver-ballistics-test/

[jdgabbard]

The only reason I'm looking for speed is to increase penetration, my carry loads are 120 grain +p and they get about 900 fps from most snubs. I think what I really need to do is find a place to shoot outdoors and see what my loads can really do.
I don't know if the hollow point slows them down or if it's cause they're swaged and not cast, but looking at tests of factory +p FBI loads they just don't get the penetration I'd want for a woods load.
As for the 206 I like it a lot! I'm surprised at how well it carries. If only they made it in 357 magnum! The parkerizing isn't horrible although they do have a nickel plated model. It was hard to find for a while but they've been popping up online recently. I got the parkerized model with spurless hammer. I mostly shoot double action anyway so it made sense for me. I used to have the EAA Windicator 357 but traded it towards my Security Six. Overall I like the 206 better but since the EAA is a 357 it's kind of a toss up. The 206 is easy to work on if you need to. Also, it carries surprisingly well. It's not a pocket gun but it carries really well on a belt. I've been carrying it since my EDC has been acting up but I got it to carry when I might have to leave it in the car and for knock around use. I'll probably load it with half snake shot and half hardcast when I'm doing yard work this summer. It's heavy but it's lighter than the EAA was. I'm probably going to pick up some Pachmayr Compaq grips for the Detective Special and put em on the 206. The wood grips aren't bad and they conceal nicely but anything less than a textbook grip and they beat your hand up. The plastic grips are too big, I could probably pull it off but the wood grips carry better. The Pachmayr grips should be about perfect, easier to shoot than wood and easier to hide than the big plastic grips.
If I find the right deal on an old Speed Six or SP101 it will probably get traded in towards it but for right now it fits my needs. I could've got a Taurus 605 for a little more but I'd rather have 6 shots over 5 and I've never had a Taurus revolver. I have a G3C that's been great but at the time I didn't have a lot to spend so the 206 fit the bill.

If you're looking for a "woods" load, there are options. But if you're concerned about the wear and tear on the M206, you probably just want to shoot standard loads for practice, and the heavy loads for actually "work". There are factory loads that exceed the FBI test very well. Here is my favorite. (https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=288) That load reportedly achieves 1050fps out of a 2" barrel with a 158gr SWC. You won't get much expansion. But you will get penetration. The whole idea behind using SWC as service loads was that the 38spl just didn't have enough energy back in the day to be able to reliably expand and penetrate. That is not the case today, with some of the newer loadings. But a SWC with effectively cut a full diameter hole through whatever you shoot it at. Hornady also has a pretty hot 125gr XTP loading at 1050fps out of a 4" barrel. But you're still not going to get the velocity or penetration you'll get with the previous load I linked to. Though, this is a store bought option. That might not be something you're interested in, but it will take the work out of the equation for you.

If you decide to go that route, I would suggest practice loads consisting of the tried and true 158gr SWC and 5.0gr of Unique. That is a great load no matter what gun you shoot it in, at least in my experience. If you want to use 231 instead, 4.0grs of 231 should give you similar results. I don't use store bought cast, so I can't say how this will perform for you, but assuming you've got quality bullets that are appropriately size it should not be an issue. Ultimately, I think you should probably have a "practice load" regardless of if you decide to work up a woods load, or buy one. A steady diet of heavy loads can shake any revolver apart...

[El Bibliotecario]

I've no idea if this will be of any use but I've found 173 grain Keith SWCs penetrate relatively deeper in dirt than 158 grain SWCs cast from similar or harder metal.

[MT Gianni]

The only reason I'm looking for speed is to increase penetration, my carry loads are 120 grain +p and they get about 900 fps from most snubs. I think what I really need to do is find a place to shoot outdoors and see what my loads can really do.
I don't know if the hollow point slows them down or if it's cause they're swaged and not cast, but looking at tests of factory +p FBI loads they just don't get the penetration I'd want for a woods load.


Look again, in all the results I have seen a 158 gr beats a 130 gr on penetration every time. If you want a standard pressure velocity winner use 5.6 gr Ramshot Silhuette and a 158 gr cast swc for 1050 fps and 16000 psi.

[P Flados]

If you want a standard pressure velocity winner use 5.6 gr Ramshot Silhuette and a 158 gr cast swc for 1050 fps and 16000 psi.

Darn that pesky little "goofy load manual barrel length" thing pops back up.

I found the 5.6 gr Silhouette and 158 SWC load in a Western data book. The 1050 fps is the tested speed from a "7.75" barrel", and I did not see any indication as to this being an actual gun, a vented test barrel or an unvented test barrel. None of these make much sense for a 38 Sp load, but it does make for some impressive looking results.

Running QL for the above came in very close to the test results with parameters for a 7.75 "unvented" barrel. Running the load as a revolver, adds ~1.7" for cylinder and then subtracts 50 fps for cylinder gap. Again the results matched reasonably well.

Changing parameters for a 2" revolver gives an estimated 800 fps for the load. This is real close to the 792 fps prediction from 5.2 gr HS-6 reported earlier in this thread. When set up for a snubby and SAAMI max normal pressure of 17,000 psi, QL say HS-6 wins by a whopping 6 fps (i.e. not enough to spit at).

[dverna]

Darn that pesky little "goofy load manual barrel length" thing pops back up.

I found the 5.6 gr Silhouette and 158 SWC load in a Western data book. The 1050 fps is the tested speed from a "7.75" barrel", and I did not see any indication as to this being an actual gun, a vented test barrel or an unvented test barrel. None of these make much sense for a 38 Sp load, but it does make for some impressive looking results.

Running QL for the above came in very close to the test results with parameters for a 7.75 "unvented" barrel. Running the load as a revolver, adds ~1.7" for cylinder and then subtracts 50 fps for cylinder gap. Again the results matched reasonably well.

Changing parameters for a 2" revolver gives an estimated 800 fps for the load. This is real close to the 792 fps prediction from 5.2 gr HS-6 reported earlier in this thread. When set up for a snubby and identical pressures, QL say HS-6 wins by a whopping 8 fps (i.e. not enough to spit at).

Good post

[R-71]

I'm using a MP mold 158 grain HP Keith bullet with a +p charge of HS 6, I get 985 FPS out of a 4" model 15.

[mnewcomb59]

The only reason I'm looking for speed is to increase penetration

With expanding bullets, as you increase velocity the penetration goes down. This is because the extra velocity makes the bullet mushroom wider. There are some controlled expansion JHP designs that allow you to keep the same penetration as you increase velocity (usually because the jacket supports most of the mushroom, but allows the edges of the mushroom to break off as the mushroom gets too wide) but there are no HP bullets that I have seen were more velocity gets you more penetration. Hell, even non-expanding solids go down in penetration after 1600 fps.

I have seen HP failures where added velocity causes the mushroom to completely break off, leaving a half weight wadcutter. But if you mushroom is staying together then more speed means less penetration.

[Magnum0710]

Since the manufacturer doesn't recommend a steady diet of +P, and intentionally didn't mark the gun "+P", I'd stay out of it myself. I'd suggest std pressure wadcutters for the snubby. Please notice that I said "std pressure", and not "target" loads. Most 2 inch 38 Special +P loads don't generate enough velocity to facilitate bullet expansion, some 4 inchers don't either. Even factory loads. Personally, I'm a bit leery of subjecting imported guns to pressures they're obviously not designed to withstand anyway. This is where the lowly wadcutter shines, since it is not designed to expand anyway. It is designed to cut a clean hole in its target for the full length of its travel. Many LEOs carry wadcutters in their backup revolvers. Skip the +P stuff entirely and load the 357 as a 357, and the 38 as a standard pressure 38 Spl. Here's a bit of reading material for you to ponder. Yes, I am aware that they are using clear ballistics blocks, which aren't the same as the FBI organic gelatin but everything here is done consistently the same way with the same materials for the sake of comparison.

Ed Harris: https://www.hensleygibbs.com/edharris/articles/Revisiting%20The%20Double-End%20Wadcutter%20and%20the%20FBI%20Load.htm

Lucky Gunner gel tests. Note how hamstrung the 38 Spl is with a two inch barrel. Lots of pics!: https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/revolver-ballistics-test/

The loads I've worked up are +p according to Speer for their swaged bullets but according to the Lyman cast book they're all standard pressure loads. I am using cast, not sure if it makes a difference or not. From my experience loading 357 mag the Lyman book seems to be about right I usually top out a couple tenths below their max. For 357 I started off using their 158 data, the 158s in the Lyman book are actually RNFP not SWCs, the swc data are the 155 grain. The 158 rnfp data for 357 goes to 10.2 grains HS6, I never made it past 9.8 but the 155 grain SWC max is 9.7 HS6, once I realized this it made sense why I topped out where I did. My 357 load is now 9.5 grains HS6. With that being said my 38 loads aren't smoking hot, especially using HS6. If I am in the +p range I'm barely there but according to Lyman it's a standard pressure load.
I'm very familiar with the Lucky Gunner tests and I refer to them often when I need to pick out defense ammo, I read the Ed Harris article and while he makes some great points I guess I'm just not a fan of the full wadcutter. I can get the same or better results with a SWC and I can use them in 38 and 357.
I get what you're saying about the 206 but S&W, Taurus, pretty much anyone making a 38+p stamped revolver says the same exact thing. They're more durable than one would think, we're not talking about some pot metal Rohm. I don't plan to put some 38/44 Keith loads through it I just want to maximize performance. I plan to do some testing of my loads soon, if 6.2 grains gets the performance I'm looking for I'll probably stick with it.but if I see better results with 6.5 I don't think it's going to hurt anything. Here's a couple videos on the durability of the 206.
https://youtu.be/oEgA32A_NAk?si=zu-6jlfC_L_O07l1
https://youtu.be/q7YUbDpdJNQ?si=NyQ4T-x3vAZFzsls

[Magnum0710]

If you're looking for a "woods" load, there are options. But if you're concerned about the wear and tear on the M206, you probably just want to shoot standard loads for practice, and the heavy loads for actually "work". There are factory loads that exceed the FBI test very well. Here is my favorite. (https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=288) That load reportedly achieves 1050fps out of a 2" barrel with a 158gr SWC. You won't get much expansion. But you will get penetration. The whole idea behind using SWC as service loads was that the 38spl just didn't have enough energy back in the day to be able to reliably expand and penetrate. That is not the case today, with some of the newer loadings. But a SWC with effectively cut a full diameter hole through whatever you shoot it at. Hornady also has a pretty hot 125gr XTP loading at 1050fps out of a 4" barrel. But you're still not going to get the velocity or penetration you'll get with the previous load I linked to. Though, this is a store bought option. That might not be something you're interested in, but it will take the work out of the equation for you.

If you decide to go that route, I would suggest practice loads consisting of the tried and true 158gr SWC and 5.0gr of Unique. That is a great load no matter what gun you shoot it in, at least in my experience. If you want to use 231 instead, 4.0grs of 231 should give you similar results. I don't use store bought cast, so I can't say how this will perform for you, but assuming you've got quality bullets that are appropriately size it should not be an issue. Ultimately, I think you should probably have a "practice load" regardless of if you decide to work up a woods load, or buy one. A steady diet of heavy loads can shake any revolver apart...

I'm a big fan of the Buffalo Bore load, the Underwood version is good too but they're basically 38/44 loads. A member here on CB did some pressure testing and both Underwood and Buffalo Bore "38+p" tested at 28,000 PSI!!! They're not 357 pressure but that's like 38 special proof loads. I'd use em if I had to but I think those are better saved for 357 revolvers.
I have a few practice loads, 3.2 grains 231 under a 158 and 3.6 under a 105 are my mouse loads. I use the 4 grain 231 as a normal practice load. I don't plan to shoot a ton of my HS6 loads but I usually blow off any ammo I carry around every 6 months.

[Magnum0710]

I've no idea if this will be of any use but I've found 173 grain Keith SWCs penetrate relatively deeper in dirt than 158 grain SWCs cast from similar or harder metal.

I was going to try the 173s a while back but they're expensive! Rim rock is the only supplier I know of that sells them, I get my 158s much cheaper. I'd love to start casting my own but I barely have room for reloading right now.

[Magnum0710]

Darn that pesky little "goofy load manual barrel length" thing pops back up.

I found the 5.6 gr Silhouette and 158 SWC load in a Western data book. The 1050 fps is the tested speed from a "7.75" barrel", and I did not see any indication as to this being an actual gun, a vented test barrel or an unvented test barrel. None of these make much sense for a 38 Sp load, but it does make for some impressive looking results.

Running QL for the above came in very close to the test results with parameters for a 7.75 "unvented" barrel. Running the load as a revolver, adds ~1.7" for cylinder and then subtracts 50 fps for cylinder gap. Again the results matched reasonably well.

Changing parameters for a 2" revolver gives an estimated 800 fps for the load. This is real close to the 792 fps prediction from 5.2 gr HS-6 reported earlier in this thread. When set up for a snubby and SAAMI max normal pressure of 17,000 psi, QL say HS-6 wins by a whopping 6 fps (i.e. not enough to spit at).

That's exactly why I asked what others have gotten with these powders! Hodgdon and their 7 and 10 inch test barrels really skew the results. I probably should have stated this in my original post but according to Lyman all of my loads are standard pressure. Not sure if it has to do cast vs swaged bullets, bullet profile or seating depth or what. I'm using a PC'd swc which has no lube groove so it does take up less space inside the case. Perhaps that's why I always top out just below the Lyman max for their SWC data?

[Magnum0710]

I'm using a MP mold 158 grain HP Keith bullet with a +p charge of HS 6, I get 985 FPS out of a 4" model 15.

HS6 is great, alot of people build FBI replica loads with it. I think I may have saw one of your posts about it befote.

[Magnum0710]

With expanding bullets, as you increase velocity the penetration goes down. This is because the extra velocity makes the bullet mushroom wider. There are some controlled expansion JHP designs that allow you to keep the same penetration as you increase velocity (usually because the jacket supports most of the mushroom, but allows the edges of the mushroom to break off as the mushroom gets too wide) but there are no HP bullets that I have seen were more velocity gets you more penetration. Hell, even non-expanding solids go down in penetration after 1600 fps.

I have seen HP failures where added velocity causes the mushroom to completely break off, leaving a half weight wadcutter. But if you mushroom is staying together then more speed means less penetration.

I'm not using a hollowpoint, I'm using a full SWC. I was only stating that in my opinion the factory FBI loads don't get the penetration I'd like to see even when they don't expand probably because they're going too slow from a 2 inch barrel. If they don't expand they're basically a normal SWC, this had me thinking I needed to get my loads running faster to get more penetration.

[Silvercreek Farmer]

There's a load using RedDot and 158 gr. LSWCs that will give 1000 f/s from a 2" vented revolver barrel. I won't repeat it here, but it made me appreciate Alliant RedDot (or PROMO) for use in .38 Special. Alliant Unique is also a stellar propellant for 38 Spl., as well as about 95% of all other pistol/revolver rounds in common use, today.
Red Dot is slightly slower burning than Bullseye, which is the gold-standard for reduced velocity .38 Spl. loads. Red Dot will do anything that Bullseye will do, plus a few things that BE will not. For higher-performance loads in .38 Spl., Unique is an excellent propellant.

1000fps out of a 2” 38 with 158g and Red Dot is going to be way over 38+p pressures. I wouldn’t be surprised if it was a 30,000 psi load. Maybe P Flados would be willing to run it through Quick Load.

[jdgabbard]

I'm a big fan of the Buffalo Bore load, the Underwood version is good too but they're basically 38/44 loads. A member here on CB did some pressure testing and both Underwood and Buffalo Bore "38+p" tested at 28,000 PSI!!! They're not 357 pressure but that's like 38 special proof loads. I'd use em if I had to but I think those are better saved for 357 revolvers.
I have a few practice loads, 3.2 grains 231 under a 158 and 3.6 under a 105 are my mouse loads. I use the 4 grain 231 as a normal practice load. I don't plan to shoot a ton of my HS6 loads but I usually blow off any ammo I carry around every 6 months.

I'm guessing it was probably Larry who did the pressure testing... I haven't seen that thread, but I'd be interested in reading through it. As for the pressure, in reality, most decently built revolvers should be capable of hanlding 28,000psi, that's really not that much pressure. Heck, 9mm Luger is 36k PSI. Granted there are older guns that probably can't handle this. But I suspect that most can. Especially my SP-101 in 38spl. That gun is offered in 357mag with no changes but a slightly larger cylinder and cylinder cutout in the frame. I completely trust it with 38-44 loads, though I do not shoot them through it. A bit heavier of a gun than, for example, my Taurus 85. That gun would at best be very painful to shoot those loads with. I guess like everything else, it all comes down to how much you're willing to push the envelope....

[P Flados]

1000fps out of a 2” 38 with 158g and Red Dot is going to be way over 38+p pressures. I wouldn’t be surprised if it was a 30,000 psi load. Maybe P Flados would be willing to run it through Quick Load.

1000 fps with Red Dot under a 158 in a snubby is getting into 357 magnum proof pressures, see below. Remember to subtract 50 fps for cylinder gap.



Cartridge : .38 Special (SAAMI)
Bullet : .358, 158, LEE TL358-158-SWC
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 1.450 inch = 36.83 mm
Barrel Length : 3.7 inch = 94.0 mm
Powder : Alliant RED DOT

CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum recommended loads !

Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms

-40.0 47 3.00 710 177 13448 3694 100.0 0.709
-36.0 50 3.20 741 192 15018 3910 100.0 0.669 ! Near Maximum !
-32.0 53 3.40 770 208 16668 4127 100.0 0.633 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-28.0 56 3.60 799 224 18395 4342 100.0 0.602 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-24.0 59 3.80 826 240 20200 4558 100.0 0.574 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-20.0 62 4.00 853 255 22082 4772 100.0 0.548 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-16.0 65 4.20 879 271 24042 4986 100.0 0.525 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-12.0 69 4.40 905 287 26080 5200 100.0 0.504 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-08.0 72 4.60 930 303 28195 5412 100.0 0.485 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-04.0 75 4.80 954 320 30389 5624 100.0 0.468 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+00.0 78 5.00 978 336 32662 5835 100.0 0.452 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.0 81 5.20 1002 352 35016 6046 100.0 0.437 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+08.0 84 5.40 1025 369 37451 6255 100.0 0.423 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+12.0 87 5.60 1048 385 39968 6464 100.0 0.410 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

[P Flados]

I'm a big fan of the Buffalo Bore load, the Underwood version is good too but they're basically 38/44 loads. A member here on CB did some pressure testing and both Underwood and Buffalo Bore "38+p" tested at 28,000 PSI!!! They're not 357 pressure but that's like 38 special proof loads. I'd use em if I had to but I think those are better saved for 357 revolvers.

The 1000 fps from a 2" revolver makes more sense at 28,000 psi than it does at normal +P.

And just in case someone has any doubts, DO NOT USE THESE LOADS. They are being posted only to show why not to use them. Note also that I removed the slowest burning powders (such as H110) from the list.



Cartridge : .38 Special (SAAMI)
Bullet : .358, 158, LEE TL358-158-SWC
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 1.450 inch = 36.83 mm
Barrel Length : 3.7 inch = 94.0 mm

C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !

Powder type Filling/Loading Ratio Charge Charge Vel. Prop.Burnt P max P muzz B_Time
% Grains Gramm fps % psi psi ms
--------------------------------- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Alliant 2400 92.2 11.3 0.73 1078 71.1 28000 10385 0.470 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Accurate No.7 72.6 10.1 0.65 1077 81.4 28000 10187 0.470 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Shooters World Major Pistol 72.6 10.1 0.65 1077 81.4 28000 10187 0.470 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Alliant POWER PISTOL 74.7 7.6 0.50 1071 91.1 28000 9738 0.467 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Accurate 4100 95.9 12.8 0.83 1068 66.9 28000 9986 0.464 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Alliant BLUE DOT 93.2 9.8 0.63 1066 80.3 28000 9865 0.470 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Shooters World Heavy Pistol 80.1 11.1 0.72 1066 74.6 28000 9870 0.467 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Accurate No.9 80.9 11.1 0.72 1066 74.6 28000 9870 0.467 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Accurate TCM 80.6 10.7 0.70 1064 76.3 28000 9768 0.467 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

[P Flados]

Ok, sorry for the tangent, but this thread reminds me of the reasons why I like my Ruger 3" LCRx 38 SP +P so much.

I get ~75 fps from that extra inch.

I do not carry, but if I did, it would work. The gun is only 15.7 ounces (the RI M206 is 25.4 ounces). The LCRx is only 5 shots, but this helps make for a "slim" package.

The adjustable sights and the extra inch also make target shooting and/or plinking "more fun" IMO. I love the DA trigger pull. I like the SA option.

The gun price was very attractive when I bought it. I have fired bucket loads of ammo from it and it looks about like it did after the first 100. I have never needed to disassemble it for cleaning.

[rbuck351]

I think the simple solution would be to sell the 38 snubby and get a 2" 357 and shoot +p+ rounds through both of your 357s.

[Silvercreek Farmer]

1000 fps with Red Dot under a 158 in a snubby is getting into 357 magnum proof pressures, see below. Remember to subtract 50 fps for cylinder gap.



Cartridge : .38 Special (SAAMI)
Bullet : .358, 158, LEE TL358-158-SWC
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 1.450 inch = 36.83 mm
Barrel Length : 3.7 inch = 94.0 mm
Powder : Alliant RED DOT

CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum recommended loads !

Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms

-40.0 47 3.00 710 177 13448 3694 100.0 0.709
-36.0 50 3.20 741 192 15018 3910 100.0 0.669 ! Near Maximum !
-32.0 53 3.40 770 208 16668 4127 100.0 0.633 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-28.0 56 3.60 799 224 18395 4342 100.0 0.602 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-24.0 59 3.80 826 240 20200 4558 100.0 0.574 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-20.0 62 4.00 853 255 22082 4772 100.0 0.548 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-16.0 65 4.20 879 271 24042 4986 100.0 0.525 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-12.0 69 4.40 905 287 26080 5200 100.0 0.504 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-08.0 72 4.60 930 303 28195 5412 100.0 0.485 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-04.0 75 4.80 954 320 30389 5624 100.0 0.468 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+00.0 78 5.00 978 336 32662 5835 100.0 0.452 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.0 81 5.20 1002 352 35016 6046 100.0 0.437 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+08.0 84 5.40 1025 369 37451 6255 100.0 0.423 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+12.0 87 5.60 1048 385 39968 6464 100.0 0.410 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!


Thank you, sir!

[35 Rem]

I've recently started loading the Lee TL358-148WC with 3.6 grains Red Dot in 38 Special and crimping in the 1st groove - i.e. leaving only one driving band exposed. Firing it in my Uberti Stallion single action with 5' barrel, I get 880 ft/sec. I'm thinking more and more that it's probably one of the best defensive loads in the 38 Special since that flat nose gives predictable performance whereas a Hollow Point at those velocities may or may not expand. Would probably be under 800 in a snub nose but you still get the benefit of that meplate.

[racepres]

I'm guessing it was probably Larry who did the pressure testing... I haven't seen that thread, but I'd be interested in reading through it. As for the pressure, in reality, most decently built revolvers should be capable of hanlding 28,000psi, that's really not that much pressure. Heck, 9mm Luger is 36k PSI. Granted there are older guns that probably can't handle this. But I suspect that most can. Especially my SP-101 in 38spl. That gun is offered in 357mag with no changes but a slightly larger cylinder and cylinder cutout in the frame. I completely trust it with 38-44 loads, though I do not shoot them through it. A bit heavier of a gun than, for example, my Taurus 85. That gun would at best be very painful to shoot those loads with. I guess like everything else, it all comes down to how much you're willing to push the envelope....

My Youngest claims that my Taurus Model 85, 3" ported, is "Mean". He feels attacked every time he shoots it... Depending on the load...Exceptions are, the typical 2.8 gr Bullseye under a Wadcutter, 3.0gr Red Dot under 158SWC, and the lightest of all..3.4gr Nitro100NF, under a 125 RN, or RF... Mildest of all!!!!

[BJung]

I'm not using a hollowpoint, I'm using a full SWC. I was only stating that in my opinion the factory FBI loads don't get the penetration I'd like to see even when they don't expand probably because they're going too slow from a 2 inch barrel. If they don't expand they're basically a normal SWC, this had me thinking I needed to get my loads running faster to get more penetration.

Someone needs to market a pencil sharpener type tool to shave off the base of cast bullet so it'll take a gas check.

[BJung]

I've read good reports about HS6 but use AA5 for my .38SP loads instead and have decent accuracy using it. I've reloaded an accurate .38 special load with 135gr Gold Dot and shot it through my 6" S&W Mod 66. It expanded well through 2- 1 gallon jugs of water. I cast, so my future bullet test will be cast 125 and 150gr LHP bullets into a drum of water. Reverse 38-148 HBWC test bullets shattered. Maybe a plastic bag with wet newspaper or magazines suspended in the drum of water and shot through would be a good medium to compare bullet performance to a Buffalo Bore, Gold Dot, or whatever you want to compare your load to..

[P Flados]

My Youngest claims that my Taurus Model 85, 3" ported, is "Mean". He feels attacked every time he shoots it... Depending on the load...Exceptions are, the typical 2.8 gr Bullseye under a Wadcutter, 3.0gr Red Dot under 158SWC, and the lightest of all..3.4gr Nitro100NF, under a 125 RN, or RF... Mildest of all!!!!

That LCRx I mentioned previously has one downside. The light weight (less than a pound empty) does make for painful recoil at lower performance than for a typical small steel 38.

It was purchased to be available for my wife to shoot. Turns out she is more sensitive to recoil than I expected. As such, recoil even with normal mild 120 gr target ammo was too much for her.

After scrounging around my stuff I came up with a 102 gr Lee RN mold (108 gr as cast). I made up a bunch and "worked down" with both Titegroup and Promo (bulk version of Red Dot). For Promo, 2.8 gr was "low enough" to not bother her. Chrono out of a 3" gun was pretty close to 600 fps (more when "tipped back", less when "tipped forward" just prior to firing). I found that I enjoy shooting this gun with either these or the 120 gr target load.

A full power 158 crosses into "no fun" territory for the LCRx. I have some and would use them for SD, but shooting them at the range gets old fast.

[P Flados]

I've read good reports about HS6 but use AA5 for my .38SP loads instead and have decent accuracy using it. I've reloaded an accurate .38 special load with 135gr Gold Dot and shot it through my 6" S&W Mod 66. It expanded well through 2- 1 gallon jugs of water. I cast, so my future bullet test will be cast 125 and 150gr LHP bullets into a drum of water. Reverse 38-148 HBWC test bullets shattered. Maybe a plastic bag with wet newspaper or magazines suspended in the drum of water and shot through would be a good medium to compare bullet performance to a Buffalo Bore, Gold Dot, or whatever you want to compare your load to..

AA-5 is one of the powders that is "as good as or better than HS-6" for full power 38s. There are a few others.

See below for my "picks" with a 133 cast. Note that the slowest 3 listed use a lot more powder for just a few fps gain.



Cartridge : .38 Special +P (SAAMI)
Bullet : .357, 133, LYM LSWC 358480
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 1.444 inch = 36.68 mm
Barrel Length : 3.7 inch

C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !

Powder type Filling/Loading Ratio Charge Charge Vel. Prop.Burnt P max P muzz B_Time
% Grains Gramm fps % psi psi ms
--------------------------------- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Shooters World Major Pistol 60.8 9.8 0.64 973 67.6 17500 8545 0.547 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate No.7 60.8 9.8 0.64 973 67.6 17500 8545 0.547 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant 2400 77.9 11.1 0.72 971 57.7 17500 8572 0.547 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant POWER PISTOL 60.4 7.2 0.46 967 78.4 17500 8165 0.543 ! Near Maximum !
Shooters World Auto Pistol 45.7 7.1 0.46 951 82.6 17500 7591 0.541 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate No.5 45.6 7.1 0.46 951 82.6 17500 7590 0.541 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon Longshot 47.4 7.1 0.46 948 87.7 17500 7425 0.545 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon HS-6 49.8 7.4 0.48 947 85.4 17500 7442 0.544 ! Near Maximum !

[P Flados]

Someone needs to market a pencil sharpener type tool to shave off the base of cast bullet so it'll take a gas check.

They do make "plain base" checks. However, with powder coat and good bullet fit, I can run a regular plain base to 357 Max full power. Why would I want to waste the expense / effort for a check on a 38?

[Magnum0710]

I'm guessing it was probably Larry who did the pressure testing... I haven't seen that thread, but I'd be interested in reading through it. As for the pressure, in reality, most decently built revolvers should be capable of hanlding 28,000psi, that's really not that much pressure. Heck, 9mm Luger is 36k PSI. Granted there are older guns that probably can't handle this. But I suspect that most can. Especially my SP-101 in 38spl. That gun is offered in 357mag with no changes but a slightly larger cylinder and cylinder cutout in the frame. I completely trust it with 38-44 loads, though I do not shoot them through it. A bit heavier of a gun than, for example, my Taurus 85. That gun would at best be very painful to shoot those loads with. I guess like everything else, it all comes down to how much you're willing to push the envelope....

I'm not sure about the SP101 but I know the old Six series in 38 special were exactly the same as the 357 versions. The just reamed the barrels for 38 for law enforcement contracts. Rugers are definitely tough, I absolutely love my Security Six. It's from 1974 but it locks up like new still. Got a good deal on it too. The 206 will probably get traded towards an old Speed Six or SP101 when I find the right deal.

[Magnum0710]

I think the simple solution would be to sell the 38 snubby and get a 2" 357 and shoot +p+ rounds through both of your 357s.

That is my eventual plan, I could've got a Taurus 605 for not much more but I've never had one of their revolvers before. I have their G3C and I trust it but between the 605 and the 206 I figured I'd rather deal with Rock Island customer service in the event I had any issues. I'm just waiting to find the right deal on an old Speed Six or SP101 and it will probably get traded towards it. I got a great deal on an old Security Six last year. I did have the EAA 357 but I traded it towards the Security Six thinking I wouldn't carry the snub no more. The 206 is better other than the fact it's 38 only, but the EAA was also good for what it is.

[racepres]

Someone needs to market a pencil sharpener type tool to shave off the base of cast bullet so it'll take a gas check.
15-20 years ago...I made the crudest setup you ever saw..One day...If feeling Brave, I may show it...I am sure it is around here someplace.. I was determined to shoot soft (swaged) SWC's at a velocity to make them really Expand...Yea, I was Much Younger...but...For all the Uglyness, and Labor...it worked..Someone like Richard Lee could have made the mess, a Reality...I like to Think!!!

[Magnum0710]

They do make "plain base" checks. However, with powder coat and good bullet fit, I can run a regular plain base to 357 Max full power. Why would I want to waste the expense / effort for a check on a 38?

I've ran Hornady Swaged SWCs at 357 mag velocities with no leading. I used a full charge 9.8 grains HS6, you could tell it was too hot and it probably would have leaded the barrel if I would've shot more than a cylinders worth. My practice 357 load with the Hornady swaged is 8.2 grains HS6.
Surprisingly I've never had an issue with leading wether using swaged or cast. I'm of the belief that bullet to bore fit is the most important aspect. I use 18 bhn cast for 38 and 357 loads without issue, no gas checks. Powder choice is probably important too, some powders burn hotter than others.
I switched to Powder coated but even using plain base I've never had an issue.

[jdgabbard]

My Youngest claims that my Taurus Model 85, 3" ported, is "Mean". He feels attacked every time he shoots it... Depending on the load...Exceptions are, the typical 2.8 gr Bullseye under a Wadcutter, 3.0gr Red Dot under 158SWC, and the lightest of all..3.4gr Nitro100NF, under a 125 RN, or RF... Mildest of all!!!!

It’s about a small of a pistol I’d want to use with a full power load, that’s for sure. It’s light, has barely any grip to it, and sits relatively high in the hand. With heavy loads you definitely feel it. Light loads are not too bad bad though.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[racepres]

It’s about a small of a pistol I’d want to use with a full power load, that’s for sure. It’s light, has barely any grip to it, and sits relatively high in the hand. With heavy loads you definitely feel it. Light loads are not too bad bad though.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
No... we use it a plenty!! Gotta relate. One of the CPL classes I was at (I went to Some, whenever the class needed Filled) I lent that Taurus to a Friends Wife.. After she shot some Wadcutters...she liked it...His DumbButt decided she should use Plus-P's. She was gonna quit the Class after a Couple Shots...I caught the DumbS Move.. and dumped that crap, reloading Wadcutters...and kept the Gun close to Me...She Passed!! Some peoples Children, should be Drowned when the are Born!!!!

[jdgabbard]

No... we use it a plenty!! Gotta relate. One of the CPL classes I was at (I went to Some, whenever the class needed Filled) I lent that Taurus to a Friends Wife.. After she shot some Wadcutters...she liked it...His DumbButt decided she should use Plus-P's. She was gonna quit the Class after a Couple Shots...I caught the DumbS Move.. and dumped that crap, reloading Wadcutters...and kept the Gun close to Me...She Passed!! Some peoples Children, should be Drowned when the are Born!!!!

Can't argue with that last part. Every now and then I see someone who surprises me they survived childhood...

Like I said, with light target loads it's not bad, and as fun as any pocket gun to shoot. With heavier loads you definitely know you're shooting heavier loads.

[BJung]

P Flados mentioned how good AA5 is for 38 Specials, AA7 has been mentioned. I've found Blue Dot as a good powder for .357 loads and Blue Dot is close to AA7. AA9 and 2400 is good for .357 loads. Has anyone tested Blue Dot with .38 Special Loads?

[racepres]

P Flados mentioned how good AA5 is for 38 Specials, AA7 has been mentioned. I've found Blue Dot as a good powder for .357 loads and Blue Dot is close to AA7. AA9 and 2400 is good for .357 loads. Has anyone tested Blue Dot with .38 Special Loads?
Yes..at length, It produces lower than expected Pressure, at Higher than expected Velocity...Which makes Zero Sense to my Feeble Brain.. So in 38, Im sticking to Bullseye, 231, Unique, and Now BE-86... I like #5 in the 38 also, but...I am conserving that for my .32's!!!! Probably just because I'm Old, I use slower powders in Longer Barrels...And vice a vis
Edit; I should Note: I no Longer strive for High Velocity at All... Prolly why Nitro-100NF is coming along nicely... And, My Arthritic Body is Happier!!!!

[Rifletom]

I've recently started loading the Lee TL358-148WC with 3.6 grains Red Dot in 38 Special and crimping in the 1st groove - i.e. leaving only one driving band exposed. Firing it in my Uberti Stallion single action with 5' barrel, I get 880 ft/sec. I'm thinking more and more that it's probably one of the best defensive loads in the 38 Special since that flat nose gives predictable performance whereas a Hollow Point at those velocities may or may not expand. Would probably be under 800 in a snub nose but you still get the benefit of that meplate.

^^^This right here is a good point and post.^^^