how difficult to learn to use cnc lathe?

[farmbif]

looking for some guidance, when I went to metal fab school back in early 70's I learned on manual machines.
and imm really wanting a bigger lather than the south bend 9. there are several 2006 model year HAAS CNC lathes that look to be very nice for little money being auctioned off not too far away. will I need to go back to school to learn how to use a cnc how difficult is it to learn to use this modern stuff?

[country gent]

The big thing you will need to learn is to read g code. Its what the cncs run on and use. You can write the program on a computer but you need to be able to read and edit it. The other is the cad cam programs for drawing writing the programs can get very expensive. I would also talk to an electrician as Im not sure the cncs will run on a rotary or inverters 3 phase power. A couple courses will get you going but the power thing may be a stumbling block.

[HWooldridge]

CNC is same as a manual machine except you are driving the controls with a keypad rather than a dials. Feeds and speeds are generally the same, except you can usually go a bit faster because the encoders are making everything work. You will have to learn "how to drive" using whatever language the machine uses. Haas probably uses G code.

[M-Tecs]

What HAAS CNC lathes are you looking at? If they are TL-1's or TL-2's in reasonable shape jump on them. They can be ran manually or CNC mode issuing straight code or in canned cycles. The only difference in manual mode is you don't have any feel since the movement is electronically controlled.

In my shop I had a TL-1 and a TL-2. It was easy to train manual machinists on them. I also had a VR-4 machining center that was a serious challenge for any non-CNC machinist.

[jdsingleshot]

I learned on manual machines and that's all I've owned. Nearly all my jobs are one-offs and no one has convinced me that they can program a project, set it up, and make it faster than I can just do it manually. Obviously, for long runs, CNC wins hands down. But I never do long runs, and I suspect few other gun tinkerers do either.

[farmbif]

there are a couple TM-1's and a couple TL-1's
here is one of the machines

https://www.govdeals.com/asset/29747/685

[M-Tecs]

If I was close, I would be bidding on the TL-1. With the Gov auctions the item may/like have some issues. Due to the age the item manager may have allowed it to be scrapped/auctioned verse put back into the system? Or it could have issues? Not sure if civilians can locate who turned it in to inquire about any known issues.

[farmbif]

I was thinking even if they get bid up to $5k that leaves a lot of room for repair money with the same used machines from dealers going for about $20k and a new 2024 unit from HAAS $31,695 plus good ole Gov Lee's TN 10% sales tax

[country gent]

A good older manual 14" lathe with 40" bed and readout will go for between 3000-5000. I recently saw a monarch 14" with 60 inch bed readout and some tooling 3 jaw 4 jaw follower and steady rests. asking was 4500. I believe it had dro on it also. It wasa also a D1-6 spindle

Also remember on thing with the bigger machines is moving them it can get expensive. Most machine auctions also now not only charge a buyers premium but a loading fee. If the movers can set in place with the fork truck its not as bad but if they have to get the skates and toe jacks out hold on.

[farmbif]

I've been thinking same thing I know how to use a good ole manual lathe. new computerized stuff, not at all. if I were younger or had a child or employees that would work in metal fab it would be different story. as far a moving machines like that I would go to sunbelt and rent a pair of roll-a-lifts. together with a winch on trailer or a rental truck with lift gate moving heavy machines becomes much easier.

[jdsingleshot]

Why would a gunsmith EVER need a CNC lathe or one that can't be hauled in a pickup? We're not making artillery.

[M-Tecs]

I've been thinking same thing I know how to use a good ole manual lathe. new computerized stuff, not at all. if I were younger or had a child or employees that would work in metal fab it would be different story. as far a moving machines like that I would go to sunbelt and rent a pair of roll-a-lifts. together with a winch on trailer or a rental truck with lift gate moving heavy machines becomes much easier.

In my home shop I personally avoid CNC due to electronic repair costs. Before I retired I had two CNC's with electronic issued. One was bad at about $4,600 for the repair. The other was over 12K. That being said if I ever find a clean serviceable TL-1 or TL-2 for under 15K it will be mine. If I do that I would start doing some custom machine to justify the cost. For simple gunsmithing manual would be my recommendation is manual. Both the TL and TM are very easy to learn and operate without knowing G-code.

[Froogal]

I learned on manual machines and that's all I've owned. Nearly all my jobs are one-offs and no one has convinced me that they can program a project, set it up, and make it faster than I can just do it manually. Obviously, for long runs, CNC wins hands down. But I never do long runs, and I suspect few other gun tinkerers do either.

Correct!! A CNC lathe is a PRODUCTION machine, for making many, many identical parts in a short period of time. It will do exactly what you program it to do, and if you made a mistake in that programming, well, that could be a very costly mistake. For making just one or two occasional parts, a manual engine lathe is still the best.

[elmacgyver0]

If I were to have a CNC machine, it would be a mill, not a lathe.

[M-Tecs]

Why would a gunsmith EVER need a CNC lathe or one that can't be hauled in a pickup? We're not making artillery.

For the gunsmiths that do a lot of threading muzzles or product produces for volume sales they are the cats meow.

General gunsmiths tend not to be very good machinists. Most are serviced well by light duty machines. If they specialize in accuracy-based rifles not so much.

[M-Tecs]

Correct!! A CNC lathe is a PRODUCTION machine, for making many, many identical parts in a short period of time. It will do exactly what you program it to do, and if you made a mistake in that programming, well, that could be a very costly mistake. For making just one or two occasional parts, a manual engine lathe is still the best.

The Haas TL and TM machines are designed for toolrooms, one offs and limited run production. The older TL's that still have the manual operation feature outclass manual machines in the same size class. The only reason I don't own one is possible eletronic repair cost. I can do the mechanical side of machine repair. Electronics I have to hire.

[challenger_i]

I learned on manual machines and that's all I've owned. Nearly all my jobs are one-offs and no one has convinced me that they can program a project, set it up, and make it faster than I can just do it manually. Obviously, for long runs, CNC wins hands down. But I never do long runs, and I suspect few other gun tinkerers do either.

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[M-Tecs]

The OP did state he was looking at a HAAS TL-1. How many people commenting have owned, operated or even know that capabilities of a HAAS TL-1?

[kenton]

I do prototype machining with access to conversational CNC and manual machines. Almost any milling project I will default to our conversational bed mills with a Bridgeport style head. They are a nice blend of CNC and manual. I can program them in full 3 axis, even doing 3D profiling using CAM software or I can run them in 2 axis to position the machine for drilling and use the same program to spot, drill, countersink, tap, ream, and/or bore. The only time I use the Bridgeport is for second operations while the CNC machine is running or when all the CNC's are in use.

We have one mill with a 10K rpm spindle, flood coolant, and an 8 tool, tool changer. It is by far the fastest on parts using small tooling or that can be programmed with the 5 tools that live in the machine with the addition of a few drills.

With lathe work I use the manual lathes for simple smaller parts or parts too big to fit in our CNC lathe. Once you add in tapers, radii, or a bunch of material removal it usually goes straight to the conversational CNC lathe. Interestingly threading is so easy on our Hardinge knockoffs that I will usually cut them manually unless it is already going into the CNC. If I had a dozen more toolholders for our CNC lathe, so I could keep more tools set up, I would probably use the CNC almost exclusively. Having all your offsets preset makes CNC far more efficient.

[M-Tecs]

I do prototype machining with access to conversational CNC and manual machines. Almost any milling project I will default to our conversational bed mills with a Bridgeport style head. They are a nice blend of CNC and manual. I can program them in full 3 axis, even doing 3D profiling using CAM software or I can run them in 2 axis to position the machine for drilling and use the same program to spot, drill, countersink, tap, ream, and/or bore. The only time I use the Bridgeport is for second operations while the CNC machine is running or when all the CNC's are in use.

We have one mill with a 10K rpm spindle, flood coolant, and an 8 tool, tool changer. It is by far the fastest on parts using small tooling or that can be programmed with the 5 tools that live in the machine with the addition of a few drills.

With lathe work I use the manual lathes for simple smaller parts or parts too big to fit in our CNC lathe. Once you add in tapers, radii, or a bunch of material removal it usually goes straight to the conversational CNC lathe. Interestingly threading is so easy on our Hardinge knockoffs that I will usually cut them manually unless it is already going into the CNC. If I had a dozen more toolholders for our CNC lathe, so I could keep more tools set up, I would probably use the CNC almost exclusively. Having all your offsets preset makes CNC far more efficient.

Until someone actually runs this type of conversational CNC machine its hard to comprehend how efficient these types of machines are for one offs. The only reason I don't have any in my home shop is possible electronic repair costs.

I do have a Hardinge HLV-H with a taper attachment and a HOLDRIDGE 3D Radius Tool Set. For mills I have two Series 1 variable speed Bridgeport. One has a cherrying head on the back and the other has the shaper/slotter head. I also have a 15" Bridgeport rotary table, 12" Advance cross slide rotary table, right angle heads and Vostro rotary head for the Bridgeport. This gives me most of the capability of a conversational CNC Bridgeport. For complex shapes I can do most of them but its way slower than if I had a conversational CNC Bridgeport.

With my current setup I can't thread mill. I miss that capability.

[M-Tecs]

I was thinking even if they get bid up to $5k that leaves a lot of room for repair money with the same used machines from dealers going for about $20k and a new 2024 unit from HAAS $31,695 plus good ole Gov Lee's TN 10% sales tax

I won't bid on this mainly because I am in a holding pattern due to a family members health issues. I may have to go out of state. If not for that I would be willing to drive from MN to SC to pick it up if it goes for under 7K. My guess shipping it up would be about $1,500 on a short load but getting it loaded would be extra. This might be a great deal but the timing is wrong for me.

[Misery-Whip]

I run a HAAS ST-30 and a TL-3.

Check out haas tip of the days. They really try to teach you with their videos. Canned cycles are the cats meow for most jobs. And you describe the part in the cycles the control does the math. Then you set up the machine and tell it where the tools are, then tell it where the part begins. Most can be learned online.

[jdsingleshot]

And while you are setting up that program, I have made the part on my Logan.

[Froogal]

and while you are setting up that program, i have made the part on my logan.

exactly!!!!!

[kootne]

If you really are interested in a CNC lathe, listen to the folks with CNC experience. Both the good and the bad. A good hand with a manual lathe and quick change tooling can probably beat a cnc on first part if there aren't tapers and radius's as was mentioned. Who does tapers and radius's? The guy who wants to make his own chamber reamers or die reamers or bore those holes for the roughing pass. If you just want one part, plan to cut 2 pieces of stock. One for setup and the second for keeps. The second one isn't going to take much time.
The old HAAS TM-1's will do a lot of work, they are a hybrid manual/cnc but there are several generations and some of them had issues with tailstock alignment being hard to maintain. I also don't think Haas supports the controls on those older machines. I ran a TL-3 for several years and would jump on a TL-1 for home use. They will run on either single phase or 3 phase. But if you are long in the tooth, don't have any background, and get a machine that you may not have factory support for and don't have the background to do it yourself, the learning curve may well be overwhelming at times.

[country gent]

The home shop is different from the tool room or machine shop in that in the shop there are others to draw on and help walk you thru mentors to guide you in the home shop they arnt normally there. I have ran fadals, easy trac and a charmae cnc edm. The easy tracs were on bridgeport mills and dpms bed mills. bridge port romi had lathes with the easy trac on them. This was programable right at the unit or from cad cam.

[jdsingleshot]

I guess I should admit that I was a machinist for 10 years in two production shops, and all my experience there was on manual machines, both hand fed and mechanically fed. And, I have had and used lathes and a mill at home for another 50 years. So, when I need a part, I just go to the garage and make it. Pretty short set up times and no programming.

I'd also guess that anybody learning to program would also have to have learned the math and principals of metal removal that one has to learn to operate a manual machine.

As far as tapers are concerned, computer control does not in itself make a cut faster than a taper attachement. IJS

As I said, up thread, CNC wins every race in a production setting, but a gunsmith might make the same part only ten times over the course of a career.

[Toolmaker TN]

looking for some guidance, when I went to metal fab school back in early 70's I learned on manual machines.
and imm really wanting a bigger lather than the south bend 9. there are several 2006 model year HAAS CNC lathes that look to be very nice for little money being auctioned off not too far away. will I need to go back to school to learn how to use a cnc how difficult is it to learn to use this modern stuff?

The college I taught at had a TL1 and a TM1-P. My current shop has a new TM0-P. They are excellent machines, and I would recommend them.

I would check and see if the 2006 controllers have the VPS, or equivalent. This is HAAS version of conversational programming. The mills are ok, the lathes work very well. Basically, you describe the contour of the part, fill in the blanks, and it writes the g-code for you, The TL series was designed for manual machinists to break into CNC.

If I remember correctly, the 2006 versions should be open machines, with a chip guard. In 2016 they went to enclosed. They use standard chuck mounting systems, quick change toolholders, etc.

If you have any questions, pm me and I'll help you any way I can.

[405grain]

I'm retired now, but I used to be in charge of two different University machine shops. The vast majority of the parts I made were prototyping with manual machine tools, but there are two areas where CNC really shines: When making 500 or more identical parts, and when machining surfaces with compound curves (think turbine impeller blades). As for my home shop, manual machine tools fill all my needs.

[M-Tecs]

The college I taught at had a TL1 and a TM1-P. My current shop has a new TM0-P. They are excellent machines, and I would recommend them.

I would check and see if the 2006 controllers have the VPS, or equivalent. This is HAAS version of conversational programming. The mills are ok, the lathes work very well. Basically, you describe the contour of the part, fill in the blanks, and it writes the g-code for you, The TL series was designed for manual machinists to break into CNC.

If I remember correctly, the 2006 versions should be open machines, with a chip guard. In 2016 they went to enclosed. They use standard chuck mounting systems, quick change toolholders, etc.

If you have any questions, pm me and I'll help you any way I can.

For my employer I purchased a TL-1 and a TL-2 around that time. You could get them open or enclosed. In the shop I also purchased a 13" and 15" Clausing Colchester variable speed constant surface feet lathe https://clausing-industrial.com/pub/media/wysiwyg/Clausing_Colchester_Lathes_09-2019.pdf

They were double the price of the HAAS TL-1 and TL-2. The HAAS ran circles around them for one off speed and efficiency. Even for the limited experienced machinists the HAAS was quicker for most operations. Threading on the TL's was way quicker that most manual machine other than a Hardinge HLV-V.

Both of the new Clausing leaked oil like an old Harley. They had straight tapped threaded holes that went into oil lubrication system. More of an irritant than a real problem but $60K lathes shouldn't leak oil when brand new. I had to replace the spindle bearings on one with less than 100 hours run time and several minor issues. With the HAAS' TL's I had zero issues over 10 to 12 years.

Some people are having a hard time understanding how quickly you can program this type of machine. The simplest example is a standard Series 1 Bridgeport manual mill verse the conversational CNC doing bolt circles. With the manual BP I need to trig out each hole locations. With the conversational CNC I would tell it the radius, number of holes and degree offset for the first hole. With the conversational CNC I would be complete before I finished the trig for the manual machine.

[fg-machine]

I'm retired and don't have a dog in this fight but for years I was just as stubborn as every other manual machinist in thinking you can't cnc simple single parts faster then manual what with programming and all .

Then I went to friends shop about a month after he got a milltronics tool room lathe .
Right in front of my eyes using the conversational programming he programmed two simple parts with threads a shoulder and chamfers and had both pieces finished in less time then it would have taken me to make the first part .
I quit showing my bias and ignorance about cnc right then , he proved me and 30 years of experience wrong with a months worth of experience.

[M-Tecs]

I'm retired and don't have a dog in this fight but for years I was just as stubborn as every other manual machinist in thinking you can't cnc simple single parts faster then manual what with programming and all .

Then I went to friends shop about a month after he got a milltronics tool room lathe .
Right in front of my eyes using the conversational programming he programmed two simple parts with threads a shoulder and chamfers and had both pieces finished in less time then it would have taken me to make the first part .
I quit showing my bias and ignorance about cnc right then , he proved me and 30 years of experience wrong with a months worth of experience.

Like you I am retired. Unlike you I (for work) purchased a new conversational two axis Bridgeport Series 1 EZ Trak SX in 1995 and a EZ Trak DX in 1996 or 1997. Later I added a HAAS TL-1, TL-2 and a VF-4. The conversational controls on the TL's and the Bridgeport's are very user friendly. Trained about a dozen manual machinists to use the TL's and EZ Trak. Comparatively learning the programing for the VF-4 was a challenge for me. I rarely ran it as I had people that were good at it. Programing the VF-4 is much different than the very quick canned cycle on the TL's or the B-Port's

While I really miss thread milling and some of the CNC capabilities for my home shop I went 100% manual. The thought of having to spend $5K to $15K of electronic repairs on a 20 year old CNC is not something I want to deal with. I have all the required attachments like a standard B-Port 15" rotary table, an Advance 12" cross slide rotate tables, Volstro Rotary Head, right angle head, cherrying head and a shaper head.

Compared to the conversational CNC my current methods are slower but I am retired so being slower is a better option for me than possible electronic repair bills. I can rebuild most manual machines myself. When it comes to electronics I struggle since I am mostly color blind.

[Toolmaker TN]

For my employer I purchased a TL-1 and a TL-2 around that time. You could get them open or enclosed. In the shop I also purchased a 13" and 15" Clausing Colchester variable speed constant surface feet lathe https://clausing-industrial.com/pub/media/wysiwyg/Clausing_Colchester_Lathes_09-2019.pdf

They were double the price of the HAAS TL-1 and TL-2. The HAAS ran circles around them for one off speed and efficiency. Even for the limited experienced machinists the HAAS was quicker for most operations. Threading on the TL's was way quicker that most manual machine other than a Hardinge HLV-V.

Both of the new Clausing leaked oil like an old Harley. They had straight tapped threaded holes that went into oil lubrication system. More of an irritant than a real problem but $60K lathes shouldn't leak oil when brand new. I had to replace the spindle bearings on one with less than 100 hours run time and several minor issues. With the HAAS' TL's I had zero issues over 10 to 12 years.

Some people are having a hard time understanding how quickly you can program this type of machine. The simplest example is a standard Series 1 Bridgeport manual mill verse the conversational CNC doing bolt circles. With the manual BP I need to trig out each hole locations. With the conversational CNC I would tell it the radius, number of holes and degree offset for the first hole. With the conversational CNC I would be complete before I finished the trig for the manual machine.

A $60K machine shouldn't leak oil for a long, long time. But it happens.
I worked in a toolroom where we purchased a Kellenberger grinder. It leaked coolant all over the place from day 1. When we called the salesman back in, he couldn't understand why we were so mad about a brand new, $250K, German OD/ID grinder pumping coolant all over the floor.... Needless to say, that was the last one of those we bought.....
With the new DRO's on a Bridgeport, I can cut a bolt circle pretty fast. It calculates the X,Y positions, and tells you when you're there. But I still have to move it, and pull the handle. I've run a lot of parts on manual machines, and if I was retired that'd be the way I'd go for sure. I have manual machines in the shop, and I use them when it makes sense.
With the TM-0P I can not only program it faster, it changes tools and moves itself. Today I was running parts on the CNC lathe, CNC mill, and CNC router at the same time. While those were running, I was meeting with an engineering grad student about a project. Oh, and my 3D printer was running a batch of parts all day in my office. Running another batch overnight, be ready in the morning.
With the workload I have, and it being just me, manual machines just aren't the way to go most days.