Cimmaron 1873 Indian Territory carbine on order.......throat size guess/expectations?

[Lance Boyle]

I have a carbine coming in on order. I have been wanting a .357 Miroku Winchester 1892 for three years but never could get a model I liked in my price range so I bought this because it’s already got a short LOP and a ladder sight. It going to be a range toy with mild loads for me. No wild bear hunting.

So anyone have any idea how these run for throat and groove width? It’s made by Uberti in case you didn’t know. The only Uberti I have is. .38-55 high wall with a rather large throat.

It’d be nice if one of my molds would work. I even have a 9mm 124 mold that I think is a truncated cone. I never used it, just bought in a bundle buy here iirc. I read that style of bullet is fairly common with the CAS folks.

I have all manner of SWC molds but they likely will cause hiccups and frustration.

Anyways, here’s to new guns and hot molds!

Ha! I can edit the title inside but not the outside viewable title apparently, I guess this thread will die a quick ignoble death.

[Lance Boyle]

I was rooting around my molds and think I got two candidates.

Two from NOE

360-160 WFN plain base and a 358-135 FN also a plain base.

[Lance Boyle]

I got the rifle yesterday. Love the sights, Ladder rear, no dumb buck horns and a nice solid thick front post. The rear notch is fairly generous too.

I have a bedding job to finish on another gun so anymore playing with this will wait.

Blue black bluing is quite nice, wood is very well fitted. Trigger is smooth but a little heavy. Eventually I will likely change a couple springs and polish things up. The lever safety spring isn’t as heavy as I expected so I may not change that.

[HWooldridge]

Best of luck and have fun!

[MrWolf]

Good luck with her. Let us know if the moulds work.

[35 Whelen]

I love that model of rifle and really want one in .44 Special.

Let us know how yours shoots.

35W

[Lance Boyle]

Will do!

I made 5 .38 special action proving dummies with NOE 358-135 flat nose at about 1.46” and some ..357 cases at 1.56” cases. I cast them of wheel weights and they dropped at .360 and I sized them to .359” and lubed with White Label 2500+

Both ran through the action fine. The .357 were looking long in the lifter.

Looking at clays for some mild cowboy loads.

I have Clays, Zip, WST, True Blue, International Clays, BE86, but all out of BE, Unique and only a dribble of W231 left.

Edit.

Oh I forgot I had two cans of Trailboss.
That lloading gate spring is quite firm. Loading is a bit of a nuisance as I bashed my thumbnail weeks ago and its thin from delaminating where it was damaged and not growing right. New growth is slowly fixing things. I am tempted to narrow the strap on the loading gate.

[Lance Boyle]

Dumb question.....Do you think a single lube groove is enough lube for an 18.5” barrel at a relatively sedate cowboy speed?

[35 Whelen]

Dumb question.....Do you think a single lube groove is enough lube for an 18.5” barrel at a relatively sedate cowboy speed?

A good size single lube groove is plenty.

35W

[Lance Boyle]

Thank you! All my .357 has been through six guns. This is a new to me mold and a new rifle. BTW that NOE mold once up to temp cast and dropped nicely! a hot mold and 720F lead temp and she was singing.

[mnewcomb59]

You want a deep lube groove for low pressure loads. By deep I really actually mean weak. A deep lube groove on a .358 bullet might have a .26" wide shank that is getting squished by the base driving band and the skinny shank will rivet out to .3-.33", causing the lube groove to shrink and pump some lube. A shallow, strong lube groove might already be .3" wide and is much stronger and harder to deform than the .26" wide shank on the deep lube groove. The end result is that the shallower lube groove won't start deforming and shrinking and pumping lube until a higher pressure.

Likewise if you shoot high pressure with a weak deep lube groove, even with hard lead, the weak lube groove will collapse, pump its lube violently and the lube gasket around the bullet will act like a sizing die. Once the bullet is sized down and the pressure drops enough to where the lube groove stops pumping, the residual pressure will blow the lube forward of the bullet, leaving a naked undersized bullet. This is why people see leading at the muzzle as they incrementally increase the load - they are using too weak of a lube groove design for the pressure that they want to shoot. Leading at the muzzle does NOT mean lack of lube, it means your lube groove is too weak/deep for that alloy and pressure combo.

[Lance Boyle]

That’s some deep understanding of what is going on!

[Lance Boyle]

Well so far All loads that I tried are hitting well above the sights. I called Cimmaron to see what the options are as this model has the front sight machined as part of the front barrel band. I need a taller front sight.

I tried:
UMC 38 spl 130 FMJ, high and left
Federal 158 LRN high at 25,50 and 100
Federal .357 158 JSP were much higher and hitting the top edge of the paper but most were above the paper altogether.

Maybe some Lee cast 125s run slow might get to the aiming point.

It’s a shame as I like the sights but holding that low isn’t going to be conducive to hitting targets. These sights are about the only option that aren’t buck horns which I don’t care for. If it was a dovetailed front sight I’d buy a Marbles of the right height and drive on but it’s not.

[mnewcomb59]

Lance I have seen in my 357 rifles that point of impact changes dramatically when you change the load. I typically see with my 2 loads a 12-14 inch point of impact difference at 50 yards when switching between 158 at 2000 fps and 125 at 1300 fps. Lead hardness differences make the bullet move left or right. If the bullets are roughly the same hardness then they will have the same windage.

One time I did manage to have a mild magnum shoot sort of near my 38 special load, within a few inches at 50 yards. I was shooting a 158 at 1400 fps with Power Pistol and it hit reasonably close to the 125 at 1300 fps.

In your situation though, you didn't have a single load hit close to POA yet so you would definitely need a taller sight. You could get some thin steel shim from a hacksaw blade and silver solder it to the top f your front sight to gain height. Brass would be easier to work with if you don't mind the brass color and glare in bright light. Solder a chunk of brass on there and file it to shape, shoot some, and if you are now shooting low you can file some brass off the top.

There is a formula to figure out how much sight height you need on the skinner sights website. You need the length of your sight radius, height the bullets are hitting over POA, and yardage. Plug it in and it will tell you how much taller of a sight you need.

Before you file your sight down, make sure to take ammo that shoots the highest and ammo that shoots the lowest and make sure that you can zero for both loads. It would be a bummer to go through all the effort and now you can zero 38s but 357s are too high, or now you can zero 357s but 38s are too low.

[Lance Boyle]

Thank you for those thoughts.

I do want to test out some 125 grain bullets. Maybe they’ll be what it takes without mods.

+1 on hardness affecting windage. I have seen that before with revolvers switching between lead and jacketed.

The Federal .38 158 LRN load is about as slow as they come, about 750-770 iirc in their pistol mv.

I thought about having a welder friend Tig metal to the top of the front sight and I could dress it down and probably paint it due to heat. Not sure if they have a stick that would take bluing so paint or epoxy painting the tip would likely be the ticket.

Hopefully Cimarron just put the wrong part on my gun. Greg, the fellow I spoke with at Cimarron said the different calibers definitely have different front sight heights. He had to do some research on the integral front sight bands before getting back to me. Hopefully it’s just a parts swap. I have no idea if the barrel diameters are the same from caliber to caliber, if so swapping in one of the taller ones like from the .45 colt or a .44 may fix me up. Or like I said I had the wrong part version from the factory. I gave him my front sight height above the barrel surface for reference.

I’d rather have the right part supplied than modifying a part when it’s this new. If I had to file some off the original I’d be silent on the issue.

I did play with Brownell’s, Marble’s and Dawson’s calculators and charts yesterday. Depending on which one I need to replace my o.390” front sight height with something about 0.460-0.490”.

Edit, I remember back in my school days using Trigonometry to calculate a sight adjustment on my Ithaca slug gun. Ammo was expensive when you’re still in school. I was pretty darned close with my calculation.

Or should I call that gun math Triggernometry?

Second edit. Thinking about what you said about hardness......I had some .32 S&W Long loads hitting left at 15 yards with a fixed sight S&W model 31-1. IIRC I used 40-1. I should revisit that mold and try another alloy. Thanks for the mental nudge.

[Lance Boyle]

It’s a model 73, not a gun I really want to shoot magnum power loads in despite its chambering. I truly bought this for a fun centerfire plinker.

[35 Whelen]

If you REALLY love the gun (and I would!!), you have a couple of options.

Send the band/sight to a gunsmith and he can either cut the front sight off and mill a dovetail in its place so you can install a dovetail front sight, or he can mill the front sight almost off and cut a groove in its place so you can use a pinned front sight, like you find on custom revolvers. This would be my choice.

I have my wife's grandfathers ancient (circa 1915) '94 Winchester 30-30 that shoots a full 16" high at 100 with any reasonable load. This rifle has the rear ladder but the front sight is pinned. So I got a piece of 14 ga. steel stock, thinned it until it fit in the front sight base then shot, filed, repeated until I had the POI I wanted.

On a side note, I have two '92 Rossi's, .357 and .44, and in both, the heavier the bullet, the higher they shoot. Just something to think about.

35W

[Lance Boyle]

I hadn’t even thought about that to mill in a dovetail for a marbles or other sight. I’d probably use something different than a Marbles, I like the thick square post on it now, I am sure there are dovetailed sights in that configuration too. Just not as famous.

Cutting a slot and pinning is just as good an idea.

That’s a good idea if Cimarron doesn’t come through.

I should order a couple boxes of 105 and 125 grain bullets to try them too. I would prefer the 125 I think as long as the gun does. There’s so little recoil with the .38 special 158 LRN that there is no need to game it down. I doubt I’d ever enter a cowboy competition although they hold them only about 45 minutes away in Saratoga.

[square butte]

My chief complaint with Cimarron/Uberti Saddle Ring Carbines & Trappers is the style of front sights which are incorperated into the front barrel bad. They have chosen to produce a front sight style which is not true to the originals - Which had a post that is integral to the barrel ( I think actually forged in to the barrel shape ) with a slot cut into the rectangular post which retains a blade that is pinned in. Multiple blade heights and styles could be used to accommodate caliber and point of impact, as well as shooters preference. I suspect the manufacturer made this choice to reduce manufacturing cost. I would pay extra to have the original style front sight feature. Just one guys beef

[Lance Boyle]

I reached out again to the folks at Cimarron, they’re still trying to get it figured out to resolve it.

[Bazoo]

No pictures? Congratulations though. It sounds nice.

If I was going to have any custom work done on my sights, I'd start by calling Fermin Garza (he's nice to talk to on the phone). https://fermincgarza.com/ He could make you about any sight you want.

[Lance Boyle]

Still on hold due to the short front sight.

Hopefully Cimarron has a good resolution and has a taller front sight band.

As a complete aside I ordered a taller front sight for my LRB 18” short barrel M14. It had a standard height NM post on it for years that was a few clicks away from happiness. I already installed it yesterday. Took less than 48 hours from order to install.


EDIT FOR QUESTION.

DOES ANYONE ELSE HAVE ONE OF THESE CIMARRON US MARTIAL Indian Territory rifles? Or any Uberti 18” .357 or any other cal for that matter with the front barrel band that is also the front sight?

I am really curious on the sight heights from above the top surface of the barrel to the tip of the sight. Mine should likely be about a tenth of an inch higher. I wonder if they accidentally installed one for a .45 colt or .44 cal. The .357 shares the same mag tube diameter size so I imagine the parts can be installed across the models even when they shouldn’t be.

[Lance Boyle]

Sent rifle back to Cimarron for evaluation. I couldn’t get the sights near point of impact as there is no lower adjustment with ladder sight, folded down is fixed, erected the lowest setting isn’t lower than the fixed.

They kindly footed the bill and my FFL was kind enough to pack and get it shipped. I was hoping they could just swap out the front sight/ integral barrel band. Apparently no such luck. They were up front, 5-8 weeks for an evaluation and hopeful fix with on hand parts or up to three additional months if they have to order parts from Italy, ie if they want to change barrels.

I was almost going to suggest swapping to a no front sight band and dovetailing the barrel like the other models,....presuming there is enough barrel wall to do so.

Such is life. Of course my Lee 125 grain mold was delayed in shipping so I never got to test that. Might have gotten me closer to the sights.

[Rattlesnake Charlie]

Don't immediately discount SWC's. My buddy has a Rossi 92 in .357, and it handles SWC's without a hitch.

[Wayne Smith]

I have an older Uberti short rifle (20" barrel) in 44-40 and the front sight is dovetailed into the barrel. It was shipped from Italy like that. For what it's worth.

[Lance Boyle]

charlie, I did try them, while not as smooth as they likely were banging and deforming the sharp edge, they did cycle and shoot a pretty good group, albeit 12-14” high.

[Thin Man]

I have an older Rossi '92 (so old it is branded Interarms) in .357 Magnum with the short 16" Trapper length barrel. The front sight post is a permanent part of the front barrel band. The top of the front sight post is 0.400" tall over the barrel. The original rear sight has been removed (with slot insert installed) and a Lyman #66A receiver sight installed on the left side of the receiver. It could be that a former owner (I bought this rifle as an estate consignment) had the same issue as you now have (sight regulation) and this was his fix to overcome it. This receiver sight regulates nicely and is a much simpler correction than having to fight against a permanently placed front sight. Hope this helps your consideration.

[Lance Boyle]

One could go with a tang mount sight. I like your receiver sights much better but I don’t think that was an option on the ‘73.

Here’s to hoping I get a gun that shoots close to the sights when I get it back.

[Wheelgun]

What range are you shooting? How high at different yardage??

I’ve had several Uberti 1866 & 1873s. All the Carbines & saddle ring carbines had the sight on the band. The Rifle and Short Rifles all had dovetail front sites.

I happed to right down about a couple of them…

The 357 I had was a short rifle (20’ octagon) so it was dovetailed and shot to POA at 50yds with 158gr on shorted/lowest notch…

The SRC was 44/40 was on the barrel band and shot POA @ 40yds with 200gr on the flipped down ladder sight…

My Rifle (24” octagon) was dovetailed and shot POA @ 50yrd on the bottom setting with 250gr.

Also it’s a straight feed from the carrier block so it should feed swc fine, mine fed everything like butter…

[Lance Boyle]

Wheel gun, I am sorry I didn’t see your post for all this time.

I was shooting at 25, 50 and even a 100 yards with mostly the Federal .38 special 158 LRN factory stuff.

At 25 yards. 4.5” high
At 50 yards 10” high
At 100 yards 10-11” high depending on how I count a high round in the 5 shot group.

At 50 a 130 MC rem load was 5” high

The wadcutter loads I didn’t save as they were well above the 14” tall target paper at 50” I am trying to recall the other loads, I am not sure where I put or if I saved those targets.

I did get the gun back from Cimarron. There was zero note of their findings or work done. All I have is a test target of what appears to be three three shot groups on the same paper, no distance or load mentioned.

One 1” group in the x, one 3/4” group on the left 9 ring numeral, and an inch+ group on the right 9 ring numeral.

Based on the group size I theorize they shot the gun at ten yards. Just a guess though.

I will run to the range today if the rain holds off and check. I am pretty sure my front sight is the same height, so that didn’t appear changed out.

I in the mean time cast some Lee 358-125s that weigh about 130 before size and lube. I should load up a light batch and test those too.

By the way the Lee mold is my first of theirs. What a nice casting mold. I have used Lyman, Ideal, RCBS, MP, Accurate and NOE molds and found that the Lee mold really does a fine job, drops at .3595 to .360.

[Lance Boyle]

Well I got to the range to test fire the Cimarron after they sent it back. It’s not better, it’s worse!

Since all I got was a test target with no description of work performed and no data of what ammo, distance the firing was conducted at I can only speculate. Three three shot groups. If I had to guess they shot the groups at ten yards based on the group size.

My trip today now had bullet striking to the right clear off the paper now. Further examination now my front sight leans way to the left. Lining up the hammer and the (centered) rear sight you can see the front sight post heeled way over. Further examination I though the mag tube was now twisted to the side. I rubber banded steel cleaning rods to the rifle, one alongside the left receiver face and another vertically across the left side of the barrel and mag tube. They aren’t parallel. Just to be thorough I moved the rod on the barrel and mag tube to the right side,...it still tilts the same way, top of the rod to the left. It’s definitely now twisted since Cimarron had it. Not sure if that was their adjustment or more likely from the negligent packing job. I shipped off the gun in its original box with a lot of bubble wrap between their box and the outer box as Davidson’s shipped it to my dealer. When Cimarron returned it they took the Cimarron gun box that only had a little cardboard blocking to hold the gun and put a second cardboard box around, tight like a second skin of cardboard, no bubble wrap or any padding whatsoever. When I got their return shipment I looked the gun over expecting damage from that craptastic pack job. No scratches, no broken wood but the interior cardboard blocking in the box was shredded from the gun moving around. I guess that fragile sticker didn’t compensate for the lack of packing.

I am no expert on this style of rifle on twisting the mag tube back around. My FFL said Davidson’s has a 100% satisfaction guarantee. I may exercise it and get a Marlin or a Winchester if I can get my hands on one.

I am about tired of pushing a Cimarron rope up a hill. Send gun that is shooting way too high and get back a gun that shoots way too high and now way too right.

I have no luck at all here.

[HWooldridge]

Call Cimarron and give them a piece of your mind. Make sure they understand the problem, get the name of whoever you talk to, and make them cover the freight. The alternative for them is a bunch of bad reviews and potential loss of reputation.

[Lance Boyle]

Call Cimarron and give them a piece of your mind. Make sure they understand the problem, get the name of whoever you talk to, and make them cover the freight. The alternative for them is a bunch of bad reviews and potential loss of reputation.


They had a form to fill out to describe the issue, I was pretty detailed on top of the emails with their head sales guy. My FFL says the distributer will take the gun back as part of their 100% satisfaction guarantee, exchange it for the same gun or give a credit toward another gun.

I was hoping that Cimarron would have called before shipping it back. If it wouldn’t zero I would have been content with having them swap the front band for a plain one and mill a dovetail for a front sight and put a marbles type of the correct height on. Nope, I got the the bullets go out the other end test. At ten yards it probably did shoot close to the sights but only SASS guys shoot that close.

I was thinking if they did nothing, I just might silver solder a piece of brass to the top of the front sight. Now the thing is twisted I am not keen. I am wondering if the barrel band screw is bent to do that. Those are supposed to be installed incredibly tight from the factory, putting a bend in it ain’t going to help in disassembly none.

[Baltimoreed]

Sorry to hear about your 1873 rifle. They are pretty neat. I bought a used Uberti Cimarron 30 inch 45 colt 1873 that had a bad barrel. Sent it to them and it took almost a year before another barrel arrived from Italy and I got the gun back. Nothing else was weird. I’ve since had it rebarreled with a 20 inch barrel and rechambered to 45acp. Happy with it now. Uberti toggle link rifles are famous for having crazy heavy springs and crazy soft screws. Ive put aftermarket springs and screws in my 3. Makes a difference but I shoot cas. Hope they can get it sorted out for you.

[HWooldridge]

They had a form to fill out to describe the issue, I was pretty detailed on top of the emails with their head sales guy. My FFL says the distributer will take the gun back as part of their 100% satisfaction guarantee, exchange it for the same gun or give a credit toward another gun.

I was hoping that Cimarron would have called before shipping it back. If it wouldn’t zero I would have been content with having them swap the front band for a plain one and mill a dovetail for a front sight and put a marbles type of the correct height on. Nope, I got the the bullets go out the other end test. At ten yards it probably did shoot close to the sights but only SASS guys shoot that close.

I was thinking if they did nothing, I just might silver solder a piece of brass to the top of the front sight. Now the thing is twisted I am not keen. I am wondering if the barrel band screw is bent to do that. Those are supposed to be installed incredibly tight from the factory, putting a bend in it ain’t going to help in disassembly none.

Nothing beats picking up the phone and calling, unless you can do it face to face. Just saying…