not sizing before seating cast boolits

[castmiester]

I see that I can seat an over sized cast in a fired case as long as the case chambers freely. I pin gauges a fired case on a 44, and it's .430. I plan on casting a .432 boolit, and my groove is .431. The throats are a tad bit over .432.

IF I decide to load per say a .431 cast, and will a light crimp to rid the bell be enough with .001 tension not cause the boolits to back out of the case with recoil ? Or just give it a decent crimp and I'll be fine. I ask this because I'm sure a crimp effects neck tension of course, but how much ? Is a Lee factory a better way to go ?

[stubshaft]

I assume you're loading some kind of 44. I don't think that .001 tension is enough to retail bullets unless you are shooting a real light CAS load like 3 grs of Trail Boss. I've loaded fired and belled cases but utilize a standard crimp. I've found that crimp tension itself is not as critical as using an "M" type die to expand the neck slightly.

[wilecoyote]

I see that I can seat an over sized cast in a fired case as long as the case chambers freely. I pin gauges a fired case on a 44, and it's .430. I plan on casting a .432 boolit, and my groove is .431. The throats are a tad bit over .432.

IF I decide to load per say a .431 cast, and will a light crimp to rid the bell be enough with .001 tension not cause the boolits to back out of the case with recoil ? Or just give it a decent crimp and I'll be fine. I ask this because I'm sure a crimp effects neck tension of course, but how much ? Is a Lee factory a better way to go ?

a LEE FC Carbide will undo what you're trying to do, unless you remove the fixed carbide insert, bashing it out from above, and retaining only the crimp function, served by the upper movable insert_
the crimp is however just the cherry on the cake, the final kiss (thank, Rob!)_ if the necks do not have enough homogeneous tension between them, obtainable with a partial sizing, next a light swaging & flaring, the crimp alone is not ok, at what I learned_

[waksupi]

Size about 1/3 of the neck.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

First a crimp does not effect neck tension.
.
Regarding, "boolits to back out of the case with recoil"
this is something you are gonna have to investigate by trial and error, since measuring the amount of neck tension and recoil can't really be measured by the hobbiest's equipment that most of us have...and the effect of the lube you use.

[castmiester]

recoil can and will drive a bullet past the face of the cylinder. And l’m sure l don’t need to tell you what the result of that is. A guy from a range l used to belong to couldn’t release his cylinder. The bullet landed past the forcing cone.

[Martin Luber]

Not just groove diameter, what’s the cylinder throat? Too many Smith 29s were too big, wonder why?

[castmiester]

I don’t have a bigger pin gauge but the .432 one is a tad too small. Thinkin it’s .4325. I just made some oversized slugs l have to run through shorty. Don’t think a .432 lube sizer is available. Guess l could have one honed to .432.

[castmiester]

Size about 1/3 of the neck.

Eventually that won’t work when they don’t chamber.

[wilecoyote]

if you need a mild but full full sizing, a LFCcarbide die can help you, thank to the lower carbide insert, once you've removed his upper crimp bushing_
this won't spare from the mandatory 1/3 of the neck real sizing, as advised by Waksupi_
this because, even if the bullets can seem tight fit without the 1/3 real sizing, often once crimped they can be turned by fingers (!) as I have discovered in one of my miserable tests_

[castmiester]

Lee Factory Crimp carbide die... it's a full length and a crimp die. The instructions say it sizes even after you crimp the case mouth on it's way out. I guess I can gather it's not completely sizing at the mouth, but is at the head. I can't how just sizng 1/3 of the neck helps anything. A taper crimp would work but how much is the question.

I don't agree that a crimp doesn't increase neck tension.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

recoil can and will drive a bullet past the face of the cylinder. And l’m sure l don’t need to tell you what the result of that is. A guy from a range l used to belong to couldn’t release his cylinder. The bullet landed past the forcing cone.

I agree.
I was trying to explain why the question you asked, can't be answered by anyone, except by you, by trial and error.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Lee Factory Crimp carbide die... it's a full length and a crimp die. The instructions say it sizes even after you crimp the case mouth on it's way out.
>>>SNIP
It sizes, but what size?
...and the big problem when sizing a case with a boolit seated, is they spring back at different rates...you actually lose neck tension.



SNIP>>>
A taper crimp would work but how much is the question.
I don't agree that a crimp doesn't increase neck tension.
the crimp (if not into a crimp groove) will not increase neck tension. If your crimp is on a band (barrel surface contact band) it 'can' lessen neck tension due to the spring back at different rates, the case mouth will spring back more than the lead under the case mouth. You will still have the original neck tension in the remaining part of the neck, but less area of grip, hence less neck tension, probably.

Again, do a trial and error test with your tools, your load, and your gun.
Good Luck.

[wilecoyote]

partially (1/3) sizing with any proper sizing die should allow adequate neck tension to be given while keeping the remaining 2/3 of the unsized brass as centered as possible into cylinder chambers_

if you work with an unmodified LFCcarbide die and following the factory/leaflet instructions,
but starting with an oversize .432 bullet,
you will obtain anyway a resized bullet well under you desired .432_
this because the carbide insert at the mouth of the die will resize per factory specs brass&bullet on the same stroke_ this twice: first time upstroke=entering,
(next the loaded ammo, pushed up, will be roll crimped),
and again when the roll crimped loaded ammo will exit=downstroke from the LFCcarbide die_
plainly said, if you have started with a .432 bullet, easy that you will end with a .429 loaded ammo
(if the brass won't collapse and be crushed on the upstroke)_

my posts #3 and #10 here concern two different custom modifications to the LFCcarbide die_
the factory instructions not recommend nor have nothing to do with them, o.c._

[Forrest r]

You should be looking at the different sized expanders for your 44cal's.

With only 1/1000th's neck tension you'll be playing with fire.

Most mfg's use +/- 4/1000th's neck tension for cast bullets. A link to the N. E. O. website, for a .431" bullet they make a .427" expander plug.
https://noebulletmolds.com/site/shop/bullet-casting-reloading/expanders/expander-plug-pistol/431-x-427-p-exp-plug/

Most of my bullet casting is done with a soft 8/9bhn alloy. I've made several different custom expanders for oversized bullets. I've never gone under .0025" expander (.431" bullet/ .4285" expander) or bad things happened. And even at that the low neck tension wasn't worth the shotgun patterns I was rewarded with on the targets.

I use 3/1000th's neck tension on all of the custom expanders I make. Makes a huge difference in consistency/accuracy.

[danmat]

Lee collet crimp die ?

[castmiester]

You should be looking at the different sized expanders for your 44cal's.

With only 1/1000th's neck tension you'll be playing with fire.

Most mfg's use +/- 4/1000th's neck tension for cast bullets. A link to the N. E. O. website, for a .431" bullet they make a .427" expander plug.
https://noebulletmolds.com/site/shop/bullet-casting-reloading/expanders/expander-plug-pistol/431-x-427-p-exp-plug/

Most of my bullet casting is done with a soft 8/9bhn alloy. I've made several different custom expanders for oversized bullets. I've never gone under .0025" expander (.431" bullet/ .4285" expander) or bad things happened. And even at that the low neck tension wasn't worth the shotgun patterns I was rewarded with on the targets.

I use 3/1000th's neck tension on all of the custom expanders I make. Makes a huge difference in consistency/accuracy.

Wondered about that.... even with casts and soft ones at that. Yeah.

Don't you mean .003 not .0003 ?

I have a cowboy expander .428 mic'd and marked .430. A 50 year rep from RCBS told me it's .002 neck tension. My .357 CB expander is .356 and "should" be .355 springback. Loading .359 .004 neck tension....

Fired case ID is .358, seated bullet.. .359. Weird... OD .380, after a seated .359, OD hasn't changed. I always wondered if .004 was too much tension. Guess I need a custom neck expander.

[wilecoyote]

Lee collet crimp die ?

on my previous posts I was referring to .44magnum Lee Factory Crimp Carbide DIE_

.44magnum Lee Collet Style Crimp Die it's another matter_

before starting some confusion/misunderstanding, here the att.mts about the LEE COLLET STYLE CRIMP DIE...

[wilecoyote]

...and here the leaflet about the .44 magnum LFC CARBIDE DIE I was referring to in my previous posts

[castmiester]

And..... ?

the carbide sizes and crimps in one die. Can't justify having this die. Don't see any reason of having to resize the case. There is no reason to....

[wilecoyote]

...your choice_

[castmiester]

mild but full full sizing

Full full sizing..... how much more can you get than FL sizing ? I never had an issue chambering, ever , using a RCBS FL die. What's up with Lee ?

[wilecoyote]

if you need a mild but full full sizing, a LFCcarbide die can help you, thank to the lower carbide insert, once you've removed his upper crimp bushing_
if the cylinder chambers allow it, the carbide insert can mildly full size an empty brass= therefore less work hardening the case = in a less restrictive way than any other true sizer die_
in my trials this is not enough to ensure everytime a proper neck tension, anyway, because not everytime the thickness or the elasticity of the brass of the necks are the same_
therefore I've found advisable the task of at least 1/3 sizing with a real (RCBS,Lee,Redding,whatever) sizing die_
_

[wilecoyote]

Lee collet crimp die ?
the Collet Style Crimp Die worked ok for me with .429 jacketed,
but has driven me crazy on .444marlin + oversize casts.
when I asked for help to the Boys-in-the-know, they got me out of trouble with dedication and xtreme patience :coffeecom _
Here I have attempted to return what was passed on to me, or at least I tried, assuming and not granting that I understood what they told me_

[castmiester]

there is no reason to size the body of the case, again. after FL sizing unless you have a bad die, and that is quite possible.

Oversized casts ??? 444 ok.... so if you are having to size that portion of the case, because of a bulge, then you are sizing down that oversized cast, which defeat the purpose of sizing to the groove diameter of your barrel or more. So far I gather, groove diameter... .001 to .002 over the groove diameter but chambering can only support so much over cast.

I can't keep up with the gibberish with the Lee die.

[wilecoyote]

#21

[243winxb]

Not sizing out of round/oval bullets, with a .002" difference? Results in poor accuracy.

The difference in soft to hard alloy can have a difference in diameter of .0015"

Sizing improves accuracy, if you can shoot the difference?

[44magLeo]

On the Lee carbide crimp die, the carbide sizing ring is larger than what the carbide sizing die has. It's been awhile since I measure but I thin it was .0015 larger. It is there so that any bulges caused by bullets or over crimping get smoothed out enough to be sure that loaded rounds fits in most any chamber.
On my Marlin 1894 like most Marlins the throat is cut a bit on the generous side. This can make loading cast bullets a bit of a challenge. On my Marlin the throat is a bit over .432. I have loaded as cast out of my Lyman 429421 for a long time and get great accuracy. The boolits come out of the mold at .432. Not enough out of round to measure. Cast with straight coww's they weigh 262 grs.
I have used several sets of dies to load for this rifle. Steel dies, carbide dies and my Lyman 310 set up. The Lyman always shot just a bit better than the others, but standard dies in a regular press was faster.
I now use the Lee Carbide Die set with the Collet Crimp die. I didn't try modding the crimp die that came in the set, just replaced it with the collet crimp die.
The reason the Lyman 310 set had the edge in accuracy was the 310 dies only neck size the case and I can adjust how far down the case I size. I only size the case down to the depth the boolit seats.
The same loads that worked in the Marlin shot just fine in the revolvers I had. A Ruger SBH 7.5 barrel. and a Ruger Redhawk 5.5 barrel.
All three I liked to set up glass beverage bottles so the neck pointed at me and shoot down the neck to break out the bottom. Was fairly easy out to 25 yards or so. Might be able to do it again now that I have gotten cataracts remove from both eyes.

[wilecoyote]

On the Lee carbide crimp die, the carbide sizing ring is larger than what the carbide sizing die has. It's been awhile since I measure but I thin it was .0015 larger. ...

this is the reason why, once the crimper was removed, it became useful for me to resizing unloaded cases, avoiding the excessively squeezing, as inflicted for example with a proper Redding full sizing die.
However, it was still necessary to verify that the upper part maintained the necessary tension, which is not always achievable in this way, especially in the case of old/heavily used brass_

[gloob]

You should be looking at the different sized expanders for your 44cal's.

With only 1/1000th's neck tension you'll be playing with fire.

Most mfg's use +/- 4/1000th's neck tension for cast bullets. A link to the N. E. O. website, for a .431" bullet they make a .427" expander plug.
https://noebulletmolds.com/site/shop/bullet-casting-reloading/expanders/expander-plug-pistol/431-x-427-p-exp-plug/

Most of my bullet casting is done with a soft 8/9bhn alloy. I've made several different custom expanders for oversized bullets. I've never gone under .0025" expander (.431" bullet/ .4285" expander) or bad things happened. And even at that the low neck tension wasn't worth the shotgun patterns I was rewarded with on the targets.

I use 3/1000th's neck tension on all of the custom expanders I make. Makes a huge difference in consistency/accuracy.

Clicked the link, and it's just a link to an expander plug that happens to be 431x427. Does NOE specifically recommend this plug for 431 bullets? I don't see this suggestion, anywhere. The "431" is not the recommended bullet size. It's the size of the flare step.

NOE also makes a 434x430 plug and every size between.

Lyman suggests that the plug be 2 thous smaller than the bullet. And even this is smaller than necessary, IMO. "2 thou neck tension" rule that we have had for decades was derived from case measurements, not from an expander plug. If the OD of the case increases by at least 1.5-2 thousandths after you put the bullet in there, then you are guaranteed to have maximum neck tension. If it increases more than that, you don't have more neck tension.

You will retain maximum neck tension with a plug that is equal in size to the bullet. When you withdraw the expander, the case will shrink by exactly 1.5-2 thous (provided it was sized small enough to start with). So when you seat your bullet in the case, the OD of the case with increase by 1.5-2 thous. Just as much as guarantees max neck tension. Just don't go larger than that. Smaller shouldn't do anything but decrease your accuracy, but YMMV.

Now if you neck size with a mandrel, your mandrel should be about 4 thous smaller than your bullets. After the collet opens back and the case comes out, the case will grow by 1.5-2 thous larger. Now, after seating the bullet, your case OD will increase by 2-2.5 thous. Enough to ensure maximum neck tension.

[castmiester]

.002 is more than enough along with a good crimp