Poor man's "Express" gun

[daleraby]

I had a thought this morning on the way home from church. I've always hoped I could one day have a SXS "Express" rifle in something like 600 or 700 Nitro Express, but such guns are kinda out of my price range and I don't honestly have any way to justify the purchase even if I did decide to do it anyway. Also, at $100.00/shot, even if I could afford the gun, I could never afford to shoot it very much.

Now, I have been half-heartedly experimenting with a store-brand break-action 16 gauge single shot. I got it fitted with a recoil pad to spare my shoulder. I've got some MagTech 16 gauge brass shells and have loaded some patched Rush Creek .626 round balls atop a light charge of Alliant Green Dot. I had to improvise some of the components I wanted to use, but even so, I was able to hit a gallon milk jug at fifty yards using just the bead. No idea what kind of pressures or performance I was dealing with, but the recoil was fairly light and there were no obvious signs of excessive pressure.

Sooooo.... I thought "why not do this with a double?" The gun I would probably sacrifice.... ummm... utilize... for the project would potentially be a Savage/Stevens 311 series shotgun in either 16 gauge or 12 gauge. The butchery...ummm... modifications... would potentially include:

1. cutting the barrels a bit shorter to remove the chokes
2. installing a rear express sight with two to four leaves
3. installing a small gold bead front sight
4. installing a recoil pad

Most likely, the barrels would not be very well regulated, so my solution would be to use one or more leaves for the "close range" barrel and the other(s) for the "long range" barrel.

I had considered cut rifling of one or both barrels. It would potentially be very shallow slow-twist (1:66?) rifling. After thinking about it for another mile or two, I decided that this was not necessary immediately. I had gotten acceptable accuracy with my single shot through a full choke without any real load development, so rifling might not even be necessary. Besides, I could always do it later if I wanted to.

My intended purpose would be as a deer gun for close cover. In Wisconsin, most deer are killed at ranges right around thirty yards. That close, I could probably use the bead sight the gun came with. Initially, I might just try it with the original bead for reference, but I would still want the express sight just for appearances sake.

Any thoughts?

[HWooldridge]

You can hone out the chokes and save yourself some work there.

I might also leave the front bead alone for now and just install a rear sight then try it (although elevation might not be right).

The so-called “smooth” muzzleloader rifles were reportedly pretty accurate out to 150 yds with a properly fit and patched ball so rifling the barrels might not be necessary, especially at the ranges you are considering.

[elmacgyver0]

There have been a lot of deer killed with smooth bore shotguns with deer slugs.

[RustyReel]

You gotta go with the double if you really want an "express gun experience". Single barrel is simply a slug gun, lots available, rifled or not, scope or open sights.

You may also want to consider the 12 ga version of the 311 and picking up a couple of 45/70 chamber adapters. Unless you think express means 60 cal or above.

[country gent]

I have been thinking a similar project through for a couple years now. I am thinking a 311 stevens savage in 410 or 28 gauge. cut barrels to 22 inches or so. then sleeve to 22 caliber and chamber to 22 rim fire. Sights would need to be made and installed maybe a claw type scope mount at some point. The new extractor wouldnt be to rough to make. But regulating the liners is going to be tricky. Im currently thinking a eccentric bushing at the muzzle. Ive also considered going up to 32 S&W long if i find a 28 gauge. It will also probably require new firing pins and bushings.
Then restock with a nice piece of walnut fore end and butt stock matching to get the true Holland and Holland look. The big thing no is the regulating the barrels to one set of sights. I would probably regulate it a 50 yds.

[schutzen-jager]

one of the older Gun Digest there was an article about making a double into a smooth bore express gun - only problem was he could never get both barrels regulated to a close point of aim - finally gave up + used single projectile that shot to point of aim + loaded other barrel with buckshot -

[Green Frog]

“There is nothing new under the sun!” There was a cottage industry back in the 1970s where they took cheap but relatively strong (Stevens 311 type) doubles and fitting either 444 or 45-70 barrels and regulating them… they called them “Poor Man’s Doubles” and the conversion back then was pretty affordable if you provided the gun. I don’t know whether a .4XX” bore is big enough for you(?)
If I were going to do what you describe, I’d probably take a 12 ga gun and sleeve it to 64 cal to get the extra thickness of steel. I bought 2 boxes of MagTech 16 ga brass to make 64 cal ammo for my Maynard… it’s pretty good stuff”!
Please keep us up to date on your progress!
Froggie

[Der Gebirgsjager]

You might get some ideas by reading Texas by God's thread on making a stub barrel gun. He has successfully sleeved the barrels of single shot shotguns with rifle barrels, notably a .44-40. There's no reason I can see why this couldn't be done to a side-by-side double barreled shotgun of adequate strength. Probably actually less involved, and maybe cheaper than trying to rifle a shotgun barrel. I certainly wouldn't recommend any of the African safari calibers/cartridges, but if having something like a twin 30-30 wouldn't be enough bore size to make you happy you could still go with a huge bore and round balls or custom loaded ammo. Black powder is another option.

DG

[lar45]

I bought a book some years ago about building double rifles on shotgun actions. I think it was by W Ellis Brown??
things to look for in a donor action is double under lugs and a greener cross bolt. These will make the action much more resistant to abuse.
The German made Saur guns are built fairly heavily.
I started with a Belgian upland 12 ga. It turned out to be a little on the light side. Maybe a Heavy waterfowl 12ga would have been better?
The Spanish Zabala guns are really nice, but I think the steel is abit soft. I bought 2 10 ga doubles, gave one to a friend who ran some warm round ball loads in it and it came off face pretty quickly.

Not to side track your thread, but here are some pics of my 470NE project.
http://www.lsstuff.com/howdah/pics/470ne/470gun-01.jpg

http://www.lsstuff.com/howdah/pics/470ne/470ne-01.jpg

http://www.lsstuff.com/howdah/pics/470ne/470ne-02.jpg

http://www.lsstuff.com/howdah/pics/470ne/470ne-03.jpg

http://www.lsstuff.com/howdah/pics/470ne/blg12ga002.jpg

http://www.lsstuff.com/howdah/pics/470ne/blg12ga003.jpg


I cut the barrels to 24", then I made 12ga barrel liners, then shimmed the ends to regulate to the sights and silver soldered them in place.
I shot mostly 500gn cast at 2150fps.
The gun shot really well and was abit lively at 8#, so I put 2# of lead in the butt.
The stock started to crack after about 100 rounds, so I epoxied it, reinforced it and machined a steel recoil block and bedded it into the stock. All better.
After about 300 full power loads, the action has started to come off face a little bit, so it's retired except for when someone really wants to shoot a 470NE.

[lar45]

http://www.lsstuff.com/howdah/pics/470ne/sights02.jpg
Here's a pic of the NECG Express sights mounted to the rib.

[longbow]

Not only has this been done many times but there are variations from using liners in the barrels to actually cutting off the shotgun barrels then coring the chambers and turning rifle barrels to fit then silver soldering in plkace and from there treating as a double rifle by wwedgine and regulating barrels.

https://www.docsmachine.com/projects/gun/double1.html

Here is a good read:

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?40952-Double-rifle-conversion

These guys make rifled inserts an a variety of calibers:

https://chaszel.com/product/45-70-shotgun-adapters/

Barrel inserts would be an easy option, just buy tow rifled inserts then go shoot.

Another "easy" option is to buy something like Stoeger shotgun or coach gun with screw in chokes then buy two rifled choke tubes.

As you note though regulation is likely going to be an issue.

My thought has been to buy a side by, cut the barrels down to about 24" and install rifle sights then use slugs to determine regulation. If I lucked out and it was reasonably well regulated then just use it but if not then either have two sets of sights as some of the cheaper muzzleloader double rifles had or consider it a "cape gun" with one barrel sighted and one approximate. The "cape gun" idea would work for smoothbore or double rifle inserts or rifled choke tubes or one rifled insert and one shotgun barrel.

From what I've read some people have been quite happy with a basic conversion as reguulation has been good enough and some not so happy because regulation was not good enough. For shotguns regulation does not need to be as precise as for a rifle so it is a bit of a crap shoot as to what you get. But certainly doable in a variety of ways. I am still planning to try it myself.

Baikal used to offer a side by with .45-70 inserts and eccentri collars to regulate the inserts.

https://www.mikebeliveau.com/magazine-archive/workingmansdoublerifle

https://www.shootinguk.co.uk/reviews/baikal-double-rifle-mp-221-45-70/

However you do it the project should be fun!

Longbow

[ascast]

I like what I see here..

[Jedman]

I built a SXS double rifle in 45-70 from a 12 ga. double back in the 1980’s. I basically cut the shotgun barrels off at the front of the receiver leaving a stub about 3” long with the underlug and cross bolt lug in one piece. I set up the stub in a mill vice standing up vertically and bored both chambers out parallel to each other.
I turned the barrel blanks to fit the stub and made a muzzle block with the same center to center spacing as the stub. I then built 2 jigs to hold the breech and the muzzle of the barrels aligned and had it clamped to the mill table. I made a rib that would join into the face of the stub and was hand fit to the barrels and silver soldered everything together at the same time.
It came out quite well, I have fixed sights that I made that are sighted to 70 yards and both barrels will shoot within 1 1/2” of each other at that distance. I have killed deer, a bear and pigs with it.
It was a lot of filing and fitting to get it all looking good and I would not do that again at my age now.

If I would do another double rifle now I would probably measure the difference center to center between the muzzle and the breech ends of a good SXS donor gun and turn two barrel liners eccentric.
I believe you could fit everything close before epoxying them in and shoot the gun and get the impacts as close as possible and make witness marks between the liners and the breech face then glue them in.

I met a guy at a gun show last month that made a double rifle from a 20 ga. SXS and installed 38-55 liners. He used set screws at the muzzle to adjust each barrel separately then soldered the barrels at the muzzle and cut off the end with the set screws and finished it nicely. He was in his lare 70’s and was just trying to sell off some of his guns he no longer shot. If I would have been in the market for such a gun I would have bought it as he did really nice work.

I will add a pic of my double rifle tomorrow, it’s to dark now to take pics with this iPad and I have to go round it up.

Jedman323410323410 I had 5 pics but iPad would only allow me the first one ?

[MostlyLeverGuns]

I believe there is a new edition of the W Ellis Brown book on " Building Double Rifles on Shotgun Actions ". I think it is self-published and available from the author. Saw an ad in Handloader, Rifle or home Shop Machinist magazine.

[Kosh75287]

I have pondered a project like this for the last few years. When I mentioned it on another website, the more experienced shotgunners who (evidently) tried it reported disappointing results. I was not thinking in terms of barrel inserts (DANDY idea, though), nor trying to regulate the barrels to a common point of impact. I was thinking, instead, of creating a front and rear sight for EACH barrel, which may be adjusted, a la rifle sights.
MY thought was to devise a quick-mount assembly for front sights (one over EACH barrel) in which sights of different heights may be installed, to govern elevation. A quick-mount assembly for windage-adjustable rear sights (one per barrel, also) could be mounted over or forward of the chambers.
Unfortunately, I am nowhere near being a machinist, and I am not even enough of a "tinkerer" (?) to get past drawings of what I have in mind, with the sights.
My original thought was to use a saboted slug, along the lines of the Remington Accutips available in 12 or 20 gauge. The 12 gauge version launches a 385 gr. expanding slug at ~1900 f/s, which is probably enough "OOMPH" to reliably drop anything in the western hemisphere. I am unsure if better performance (certainly not velocity, but maybe projectile weight) could be obtained with conventional Foster-style slugs, but I have never tried.

I just thought that it would be far easier to attach and then adjust sights on each barrel, rather than to try regulating both barrels together.

[HWooldridge]

One thing to consider is the desired purpose. A heavy double rifle that prints each barrel within 4" at 50 yards would be quite useful on large, dangerous game - but it's not a varmint gun.

[schutzen-jager]

One thing to consider is the desired purpose. A heavy double rifle that prints each barrel within 4" at 50 yards would be quite useful on large, dangerous game - but it's not a varmint gun.

jmho - 4" forward, back, up. or down from point of aim would also make it's use on deer, hogs, + other similar or smaller sized game - would likely result in miss, gut shot, or long suffering wounded animal - 4" deviation at under 50yds. could result in 3 or more times that as distance increases -

[Kosh75287]

Reviews of the ammunition I mentioned report 3" groups at 100 yards, which would be more like it. I should point out that nobody reported such groups with a SxS shotgun, but I don't know why it would not be possible, if a single barrel was tested.

[HWooldridge]

jmho - 4" forward, back, up. or down from point of aim would also make it's use on deer, hogs, + other similar or smaller sized game - would likely result in miss, gut shot, or long suffering wounded animal - 4" deviation at under 50yds. could result in 3 or more times that as distance increases -

That's why I mentioned "large, dangerous game" - and 50 yards could be a functional user limit with a single set of express sights; e.g. 500 NE or larger on grizzly or moose, etc. It would be relatively easy to check alignment on a double (or an over under) using slugs with the original barrel setup.

Here is the ML version, still pretty pricey: https://www.davide-pedersoli.com/en/products/kodiak-express

[John Taylor]

Several years back I made a Winchester model 21 into a 416-500 for a customer. Started with making a new mono block and threaded the barrels to it. Customer wanted 24" barrel which I was not happy with but that's what the customer ordered. Luckily the barrel regulated easy. I used a lead sled and had hearing protection but the muzzle blast was still bad.

[schutzen-jager]

That's why I mentioned "large, dangerous game" - and 50 yards could be a functional user limit with a single set of express sights; e.g. 500 NE or larger on grizzly or moose, etc. It would be relatively easy to check alignment on a double (or an over under) using slugs with the original barrel setup.

Here is the ML version, still pretty pricey: https://www.davide-pedersoli.com/en/products/kodiak-express

totally agree that it is very easy to check barrel alignment, regulation on a double, but almost impossible for a user or machinist
to correct w/o vast investment in time + money -

[HWooldridge]

I'm sitting here blowing smoke rings into the air but one way might be to utilize a plug at the end of the shotgun barrels with a slightly offset bore that could be turned to regulate the rifle barrel inserts. Something similar to an internally threaded choke in concept, where a bit of rotation would pull on the rifle barrel and allow some adjustment. The "chokes" could be pinned or otherwise locked into place after shot regulation.

Just a thought - I have some years of machining experience but am not a gunsmith in any shape or form.

[schutzen-jager]

jmho - that would depend on the double barrel + rib construction - anything pulling or moving barrels could be a costly mistake - most all are very thin walled near muzzle - some are soft soldered, some silver soldered, some brazed, + some mono bloc with floating ribs - extremely easy to separate barrels + ribs if not careful + knowledgeable - it was a common happening for barrels to come apart when some smiths inadvertently tried to hot blue the barrels in hot caustic solutions - like i stated they can be regulated but it will be very time consuming, expensive, or both -

[longbow]

The Baikal .45-70's were made with eccentric collars inside the shotgun muzzle so they could be turned to slightly move the insert for regulation. It appears from the pics of them that they uded two different systems. One is somewhat external and the other looks to be enitriely internal though hard to tell from the few pics I've seen. But either an eccentric collar or turning the inserts to be slightly eccentric should work as long as they can be adjusted to regulate then locked in position.

Having said that, if it was easy and worked well then the high end double rifle makers would be using that system but they are not! For us peasants that can't afford a high end double rifle we have to make do and eccentric collars or eccentri liners should work reasonably well.

A reason I mention the idea of a cape gun was simply because it should be fairly easy to get one barrel sited and grouping reasonably well then the other barrel could be used for buckshot, two ball ot Tri-Ball loads or even slugs. I haven't shot one of the guns with two rear sights but I have to think that it wouldn't be hard to pick the wrong sight at the wrong time when hunting or defending against dangerous game (bears?). Buckshot or multi ball loads don't require precision sighting to be effective.

Longbow

[Rusty Goose]

Those barrel liners chambered in .45-70 are really intriguing! I wonder if an old Belgian double with exposed hammers and damascus barrels would hold up with some BP rounds... asking for a friend.

[HWooldridge]

The Baikal .45-70's were made with eccentric collars inside the shotgun muzzle so they could be turned to slightly move the insert for regulation. It appears from the pics of them that they uded two different systems. One is somewhat external and the other looks to be enitriely internal though hard to tell from the few pics I've seen. But either an eccentric collar or turning the inserts to be slightly eccentric should work as long as they can be adjusted to regulate then locked in position.

Having said that, if it was easy and worked well then the high end double rifle makers would be using that system but they are not! For us peasants that can't afford a high end double rifle we have to make do and eccentric collars or eccentri liners should work reasonably well.

A reason I mention the idea of a cape gun was simply because it should be fairly easy to get one barrel sited and grouping reasonably well then the other barrel could be used for buckshot, two ball ot Tri-Ball loads or even slugs. I haven't shot one of the guns with two rear sights but I have to think that it wouldn't be hard to pick the wrong sight at the wrong time when hunting or defending against dangerous game (bears?). Buckshot or multi ball loads don't require precision sighting to be effective.

Longbow

That's what I get for trying to have an original thought - oh well, another patent idea out the window...always a bridesmaid and never a bride...:-P

[wwmartin]

There's a Baikal/ Remington 45-70 listed on Gone Broker (listing #1035060200). Picture #7 shows the regulating device under the barrel. There nothing at the muzzle to regulate that I can detect on the one I have, just the normal band to attach the barrels to each other. I'm glad I bought mine when they were selling for around $750 about 15 years ago.
I took it to the range once along with a IAB Sharps and some 535gr cast loaded for the Sharp's . Weighing in at 6#10oz I will wake you up.
My other double rifle is a Sabatti in 9.3×74r that one I haven't fired. I built a rolling block in that chambering about a year before I found the Sabatti.
My thoughts on the Baikal are not to abuse it with heavy loads but it's been fired so will not become a safe queen. I don't hunt so at 75 I'm not interested in beating myself up wit heavy loads. I haven't spent enough time with either rifle to check regulation.

Bill

[longbow]

I have only seen pictures of the Baikals but it appears that there are different arrangments at the muzzles:

https://i.postimg.cc/qBCY5xQc/Double-Rifle-01.jpg (https://postimg.cc/MXqdcRCX)

https://i.postimg.cc/SKT5wZwd/DSC-2672-vi.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

I read of an adjuster under the barrels for the right hand barrel to regulate so I am guessing that would be the arrangement in the first pic above.

It appears that the liners are adjustable at the muzzle in the second pic.

Maybe someone that has one or has knowledge will clarify?

I'm kinda thinking of looking for a used one but I will guess that they are pretty rare here. The Chaszel inserts would be another option but a guy would have to make his own adjuster if regulation wasn't good with the shotgun.

Longbow

[jaguarxk120]

You can try looking for a Lanber O/U 12 Bore gun.
It was made years ago, 21 inch barrels and a total weight of 6 pounds, very nasty to shoot.
But the bottom barrel was on at 50 yards and the top barrel was spot on at 100 yards.
That is using the Lyman 525 grain sabot slug and a load of Blue Dot driving it.
I think they imported by Cherry's Gun shop and closed out by CDNN.

[HWooldridge]

https://www.shootinguk.co.uk/reviews/secondhand-gun-review-lanber-sporter/

Never heard of this brand but seems to be of good quality.

[elmacgyver0]

I would have to have side hammers to trip my trigger.
The Chinese make cheap side by side coach guns with mule ears that would be a cheap starting point for one of these.

[swamp]

I have one of the Baikals. I am quite pleased with it. It has the under barrel regulator. Ha a low power scope on it. Shoots well and alot of fun. Haven't run any heavy stuff thru it, that is what the No. 1 is for. It really likes the collar button boolits.
swamp

[elmacgyver0]

I went and ordered a pair of the 24 inch inserts in .45-70.
Got to quit reading this stuff, it's getting expensive.

[schutzen-jager]

like i stated in previous posts it will be expensive -
back in mid sixties when i started whitetail hunting, 12 ga buck shot was the only legal weapon - did some experimentation + found # 1 buck was most accurate + effective at 50 yards in my Savage 311 - a decade or so later the state authorized slug usage -tried different foster + Brenneke, could not get any to shoot both barrels to point of aim, so 2/3 of my kills were with buck shot - after LEE came out with their slug molds - tried every conceivable load in many doubles Baker Batavia, Ithaca Flues, J. Manton, Fox BST, Stevens 511, + Savage 311 - they were all made accurate with slug in one barrel only + never in both - finally gave up + my last 1/3 deer were killed with Ithaca DSPS smooth bore with the Lee slugs - -

[elmacgyver0]

Actually, I was being a little bit sarcastic.
$314.00 delivered to my door, I don't feel all that expensive for two .45-70 barrels.
The reason I still work part time is so I can afford to buy a few toys.
I work a little bit; my wife works a little bit; we both like to spend a bit of money from time to time.
We are both on Social Security and with our part time work have not so far had to dip into our retirement funds, knock on wood.
Just living the dream.

[longbow]

elmacgyver0 please post your results with those .45-70 barrels! I have been thinking about this for quite some time but not taken the plunge due to limited toy budget (I am retired) but I am planning to give it a go if it works reasonably well. You have taken the plunge!

I will be looking forward to a range report!

Even if only one barrel at a time is reasonably accurate I would consider an insert in one barrel and shot in the other barrel like a cape gun. Of course these inserts are easily removeable too so the original shotgun is not permaenetly altered other than barrel length.

I will be watching!

Longbow

[country gent]

Im getting closer to starting this project my self.
Im thinking a step at the muzzle and eccentric bushings.
Blanks will be turned to a snug fit in chambers and rims. barrels will be .010-.015 clearance in bores. or 6-48 holes taped every 60* around muzzles these will allow Zeroing to the sights. I can then solder the blanks in place when set. starting with 24" barrels once soldered they end can be cut off at 20" and finished then crowned. The backs of the barrels will need to be cut out for the new extractor and that made. My concern with the bushings are when you turn them you will not only adjust side to side but elevation as well
Im going to use a 20 gauge for this so will have roughly .615 liners the inserts will be loctited into the chambers

Im being conservative but this conversion is going to be 32 S&W long. But have considered 32-20. I want a lighter caliber for around the place and maybe squirrel hunting. Plus in the lighter calibers I can get away with making the iron sights and epoxying them on. Im leaning more to a low power scope in the 2-2 1/2X range with no objective bell for the traditional look.
The donor gun has double triggers, Im afraid the recoil of the 32 Long wont be enough to reset a single trigger.
I may inlett a couple plates in the wrist action area of the butt stock to give the appearance of the Holland and Holland royal.

[challenger_i]

There may be method in your madness: Cessna used a similar idea for adjusting the wing incidence of their Century series aircraft.


I'm sitting here blowing smoke rings into the air but one way might be to utilize a plug at the end of the shotgun barrels with a slightly offset bore that could be turned to regulate the rifle barrel inserts. Something similar to an internally threaded choke in concept, where a bit of rotation would pull on the rifle barrel and allow some adjustment. The "chokes" could be pinned or otherwise locked into place after shot regulation.

Just a thought - I have some years of machining experience but am not a gunsmith in any shape or form.

[elmacgyver0]

I have two possible guns that would work.
I pretty much ruled out my old Damascus double with the rabbit ear hammers.
I have a cheap Chinese Zhongzhou Machine Works double coach gun with rabbit ear hammers and 20-inch barrels that is itching to be a double express rifle.
I think I only paid a little over $250 bucks for it.
I ordered the 24-inch inserts, I will see how crazy it looks with them sticking proud of the barrels.
I can always cut them down, but prefer to keep the length, we will see. Lots of options.

[longbow]

Before you order or at least receive those inserts you might want to check the locations of their O-rings. That is if they are the Chaszel inserts. Those inserts use O-rings around the insert to center them in the shotgun bore so if the muzzle end O-ring is within 6" of the muzzle you will be cutting it off or it will be sticking out of the bore.

Okay then I just looked and yes, the O-ring grooves are near the muzzle so you might want to cancel and re-order 18" inserts or be prepared to have new O-Ring groove(s) machined or use a sleeve of some sort.

https://i.postimg.cc/HnFFZzXp/12ga-4570-18-inch-Overall.webp (https://postimg.cc/m1NdhQmq)

Longbow

[Milky Duck]

depending on the shotgun..the Oring may be surplus to requirements.... the one I got made up sits snugly in all my shotguns now except will now be loose in the astra cyclope in USED to live in and its too fat for top barrel in the U/O bakail....If I wanted to use in the astra again one or two layers of insulation tape would center it nicely.it was so snug in astra before if I oiled it..wouldnt fit in!!! turned it down just a smidgen.

[elmacgyver0]

Before you order or at least receive those inserts you might want to check the locations of their O-rings. That is if they are the Chaszel inserts. Those inserts use O-rings around the insert to center them in the shotgun bore so if the muzzle end O-ring is within 6" of the muzzle you will be cutting it off or it will be sticking out of the bore.

Okay then I just looked and yes, the O-ring grooves are near the muzzle so you might want to cancel and re-order 18" inserts or be prepared to have new O-Ring groove(s) machined or use a sleeve of some sort.

https://i.postimg.cc/HnFFZzXp/12ga-4570-18-inch-Overall.webp (https://postimg.cc/m1NdhQmq)

Longbow

I am well aware of that, if for some reason I want to use the O-rings I will just cut new grooves in the inserts.
What I don't want is the inserts to end 4 inches back from the muzzles.
Once I have the inserts in hand, I will decide how to deal with them.
I assume these inserts have no method of regulation unless I come up with it, of which I do have some ideas but can only stay as ideas until I get my grubby little hands on them.
Then there is the question of extractors, it appears you are to use a fingernail for that, I may not be satisfied with that, we'll see.

[ulav8r]

If you use screws to adjust the muzzle, keep them as close to the cut point as possible. The further the cut is from the screws the more possibility there will be a change in impact point after the cut.

[elmacgyver0]

I have some ideas but won't know the feasibility of them until I have the inserts.
I am not planning on using any kind of set screw, but I will not rule anything out at this point.
I just as soon not drill any holes in the barrels.

[longbow]

I'll definitely be interested in your solution for regulation!

In the meantime I will have to see if the Chaszel inserts are available in Canada. I hope so!

Longbow

[elmacgyver0]

I'll definitely be interested in your solution for regulation!

In the meantime I will have to see if the Chaszel inserts are available in Canada. I hope so!

Longbow

IF, I come up with a solution.
I will certainly try.
I never thought I would ever be able to build a .50 BMG rifle, but I did, it is an ungainly monster, but it works, at least it did for the ten times I fired it.
I hope the inserts are available for you.

[elmacgyver0]

I have a pair of 20 gauge 410/45LC inserts I bought cheap years ago with the idea of building a Hooda pistol.
If I live long enough, I still may get around to it.
The inserts are only 7 inches long, so I haven't been too inclined to use them in a shotgun.

[jaguarxk120]

You might want to pattern that coach gun first.
Many of those guns have barrels regulated 3-4 ft. appart
or high and low to each other.

[longbow]

As it turns out the inserts are available through at least one outfit in Ontario. Same place I found TJ liners that have become difficult to get in Canada. I have an 1881 Marlin with a large and somewhat rough bore. Rifling is still pretty decent and it isn't nearly as bad as I had thought. In any case I looked for TJ's liners and they have become very difficult to get here but a place in Ontasrio imports those and the Chaszel inserts. The Chaszel inserts run $260 CDN each for 24" and $225 CDN for 18".

I am back looking for a side by to experiment with. I haven't decided yet which way to go. If I buy a cheap 12 ga. to chop off I am thinking the barrel regulation won't be as good as a better qaulity gun. Maybe yes, maybe no. Who knows? Side by's of any grade likely won't be regulated anywhere near as good as a dedicated double rifle.

I have also toyed with buying a Stoeger Supreme coach gun as they are threaded for choke tubes so two rifled choke tubes could be installed for a "poor man's Paradox gun". Same issue with regulation though. If it is acceptable then great but if not the inserted would have to be regulated by some form of adjustment. Also, I'd prefer 22" or 24" barrels to 20" barrels of a coach gun.

If I can find a decent Sauer, Merckle, Husky or BRNO side by inexpensively one of those or equivalent might be a good choice. I suppose if it doesn't work out and I want to sell the shotgun after it would be useable as a coach gun or handy double slug gun for bear defense so likely not much if any money lost. Also, for me the idea of a cape gun works too so one liner sighted and one barrel left as is for birdshot, buckshot or slugs.

Time and budget will tell the tale! I am retired so limited toy budget. If two inserts cost me $520 + another $400 to $700 approx for a used "nice" side by or new Stoeger that's about $1000 to $1200 total.

I will certrainly be interested in your results.

Longbow

[elmacgyver0]

I already have the shotgun so the cost is minimal, or I would not consider it.

[elmacgyver0]

You might want to pattern that coach gun first.
Many of those guns have barrels regulated 3-4 ft. appart
or high and low to each other.

I don't care where it throws shot.
Once it has the inserts, then comes the fun.
If I can get it to hit a paper plate at 100 yards, I will be delighted, but at this point that may be wishful thinking.

[jaguarxk120]

You may want to try Brenneke slug's at 25 or 50 yards.
That will really tell you how the barrels will shoot.

[elmacgyver0]

Well, I guess my project will have to wait a bit.
I got the inserts, only they are the wrong ones.
What I got is two .410 inserts 16 inches long for 9mm.
Chaszel Is sending me the correct ones and a return label for the wrong ones.
...it happens.

[elmacgyver0]

I just got a notice from UPS that says the inserts are arriving tomorrow, that usually means if I'm lucky I might get them Saturday.

[longbow]

I am waiting anxiously! I am living vicariously through your project currently!

Just as some encouragement I found this link to results from a Baikal with inserts (factory rifle but inserts in a shotgun):

http://www.outdoorsmenforum.ca/showthread.php?t=267162

Not sure if he can do that on demand or what group size would be if he shot 3 from each barrel, even cooling down between shots, but it shows potential for what can be done and in reality if both barrels will group withing 4" or so at 100 yards that would be pretty decent.

I am back to looking for suitable/affordable shotguns!

Longbow

[elmacgyver0]

I would imagine that an old Savage 311 would be ideal if you don't mind not having external hammers.
They used to be cheap but don't know what they go for these days.

[country gent]

Im looking at the stoger uplander with 26" barrels as the donor gun 499.00 I think. but again no hammers. I have an e-mail in inquiring about the receivers manufacture, casting , billet, or forging havent heard back yet.

[elmacgyver0]

I am feeling kind of bad; I realize I am hijacking daleraby's thread, I should start my own I guess, and will do so if requested.

[longbow]

I'm actually thinking of a Stoeger Coachgun Supreme because it comes with choke tubes so offers more flexibility to try liners, rifled choke tubes or smoothbore plus it has 3" chambers which I'd like. If it worked with the inserts then it is a double rifle. If regulation wasn't good enough and eccentric collars or whatever don't work out then it could be a cape gun with one insert or back to being shotgun. Plus it would likely sell easier than a chopped down "other" used gun.

There are a number of relatively inexpensive European doubles available here... Sauer, BRNO, Husky, Merckle and other with reasonable looking guns from about $300 to $600 CDN. Almost all are 2 3/4" chambers and to get them threaded for choke tubes runs $180 per barrel so not too attractive. They'd be fine for cutting down and installing inserts but if that didn't go well enough then it is just a short shotgun that might sell to a CAS shooter but I wouldn't have a lot of use for it. The Stoeger is more expensive but offers more options and likely better resale value if it comes to that. The downside is it has 20" barrels and I'd prefer at least 22" but not a big deal and 18" inserts would fit.

We'll see when I have more toy money.

Longbow

[elmacgyver0]

I just received the inserts, they look great.
Had them in my Chinese coach gun and there is plenty of room to get them regulated.
The easiest way to regulate the barrels would be to use aluminum duct tape.
Even if you didn't want to leave it that way it would tell you what you need to do to get close with your offset (eccentric) bushings.
I may end up using my old New Baker shotgun for this.
I didn't want to modify it, but I found a set of barrels on Ebay that look like they may fit so I went ahead and bought them.
If I can't make them work, I'm only out 200 dollars. If I can, I will use the worst set for the inserts and cut them down to match.
I will find out in about a week.

[longbow]

That was fast! Chaszel may have made a mistake but it got corrected pretty quickly!

That is a good idea re aluminum duct tape! Cheap and easy though you'd have to pull the insert each time to move shims around. Still it is simple and should work and nothing to make. Great idea!

I will be watching with interest!

Longbow

[fordwannabe]

I am also following this thread with interest. Before I had seen the thread I had purchased a 16 gauge double at a local gun show for a similar idea using slugs....but at 50 yards I couldn't keep the slugs on paper. Now I am thinking about inserts but 16 inserts are hard to come up with.

[elmacgyver0]

My plan for regulating will be first using the O-rings to center the inserts if using a long barrel.
If using the short coach gun, then I will wrap inserts with whatever tape I have handy to get the inserts centered.
The next step is to use two laser bore sighters to see how close or how far off they are.
I figure the lasers will allow me to play around with the regulation before multiple range trips and burning up a bunch of ammo.
The longer inserts do not have a cutaway for the extractors, the instructions say to index them for point of impact that you prefer, then if you wish cut away or file off enough of the rim to clear the extractor.
I can't see if there is an eccentric to the insert, there may be a mild eccentric to the O-ring channels, if there is it is not much, of course it may not take much.
I can't imagine the inserts themselves having an off centered bore. (on purpose anyway)
I don't see how the point of impact would change much by rotating the inserts unless there was some kind of eccentric.
I will find out once I have the bore sighters.

[elmacgyver0]

I was just looking over the Chaszel web site to see what else they have that I might be interested in. They have a lot on their web site, but most all of it is out of stock.
The .45-70 inserts some .410s are about all they have. I think I got pretty lucky with the .45-70s, they still seem to be in stock.

[elmacgyver0]

When the rest of my stuff arrives, I will be able to decide how I want to proceed.
The verdict is still out on which shotgun I will use.
In the meantime, I have been thinking about yet another double rifle.
I have an old 16-gauge Damascus hammer gun I bought cheap and some various project barrels I have laying around I should do something with.

[nueces5]

More than 15 years ago, one afternoon I was in my range, and a man walked in, walking almost crouched, very old, with horn-rimmed glasses and green lenses. He came in with an old reusable grocery bag. We get closer. He went to the 150 meter sector, and ordered a target to be placed. He took a side-to-side double-barreled shotgun out of his bag. With a small scope between the two barrels. He took a crumpled bag with some bullets, quite large, bare lead boolits. He put one in one of the two cannons and started firing. Most of us hid behind a wall in case it exploded.
Not only did it not explode, but it placed all the shots in a 10 cm circle at 150 meters. It was a 16ga caliber shotgun, and a 44 magnum barrel had been inserted into one of the barrels. He said that he had built it to hunt wild boars.
I never saw him again.
I learned my lesson
:bigsmyl2:

[elmacgyver0]

Rotating the inserts do indeed change the point of impact per the laser bore sighters.
I found I can further change the impact point by putting shims under the O-ring at the front of the insert.

[longbow]

Good man!

How much change in POI have you gotten by rotating and shimming? I'm guessing your results are still pretty preliminary so just ballpark is what I am wondering. I will be looking at shotguns when we get to the big city next weekend.

I am leaning towards the Stoeger coach gun because it has 3" chambers and screw in choke tubes, both of which I want for slug shooting if it groups well enough. If not then I will likely order one insert to see how wel it shoots and try that in both barrels. If it looks good and I can get decent combined groups I would order a 2nd insert and follow in your footsteps. If not then I'd accept it as a cape gun with one rifled insert and one smooth barrel.

At worst if it doesn't work out it would still be useful for buckshot, two ball and Tri-Ball loads which is why I want 3" chambers.

Still watching with interest!

Longbow

[elmacgyver0]

What I have found with my old Damascus double barrel is it is cross-eyed.
Aiming across my basement the dot on the left is from the right barrel and the left barrel is the dot on the right.
The closest I was able to converge the dots was about 2 and 3/4 inch at 36 feet.
Using shims, I was able to shrink it down it down to one inch.
This is not going to translate very good at 100 yards.
The old Damascus guns have beautiful, graceful lines but are probably not suitable for this application.
The Chinese coach gun is better, I can get the dots to converge at 36 feet by spreading the barrels as much as possible.
It seems the problem with SxS shotguns is the barrels are not parallel, they are closer together at the muzzles than the breech.
This is much more pronounced with the old long barreled guns than the coach gun.
Of course, I have not tried live ammunition yet and the bore sighters leave a bit to be desired.
I think the best bet is the coach gun.
What would be perfect is absolutely parallel barrels, that is that you need to look for or as close as you can get.

[lar45]

To regulate the barrels, you need to shoot it from a standing position. The right barrel will recoil up and to the right, while the left barrel will recoil up and to the left. This will effect where the bullets actually land on the target.
I built a standing rest to regulate my 470 project. It's just 2 2x4s in an L with a 45 degree brace keeping them secure. Now C clamp this to an upright post at the range and put a sand bag on it.
Hold the rifle with your off hand fore arm resting on the sand bag, align the sights, lift up slightly to be on target and touch off.
Shoot both barrels and mark them on the target.
Shim your barrel and reshoot...

[longbow]

Yes, what lar45 said! I used to think that the barrels should be parallel but no! They have to converge some but the convergence is dependent on range, recoil and shooter. That is why double rifles and Paradox guns have to regulated well and apparently normally POI is set for 50 to 100 yards because most of the double rifles are used for dangerous game at moderate to close range. The gun will be regulated with one load for both barrels so that POI is "close" at 50 yards or 100 yards. A change of load may or may not produce reasonable groups.

Petander, who posts here, has a .470 NE he has managed to get good accuracy and close POI to 75 yards using a lightish cast bullet so it shoots factory rounds well but also his cast bullet "plinker" rounds.

H&H claims its Paradox guns will shoot combined groups inside a 5" square at 100 yards.

i'd expect that a lighter recoiling double wouldn't be as sensitive to the shooter as a heavy recoiling .577 NE, .600 NE or .700 NE as they are brutal to shoot and undoubtedly magnify the effect lar45 mentions. A 12 ga. shouldn't be in that class so likely easier to tame. .45-70 at BP levels is even tamer than that. Along with being able to shim the barrels to correct POI some you should be good I'd think. Again, that is a very good idea!

Longbow

[elmacgyver0]

Learn something every day.
I guess I won't know until I get to the range.
Perhaps my old shotgun will work anyway.
I don't feel the time was wasted with the shims and bore sighters.
I think a beter way to make the shims is with copper wire it can easily be pounded flat, and the ends tapered in case extra adjustment is needed.

[longbow]

I'd think your shims will have to be held in place pretty firmly because those inserts will likely be moving some due to barrel vibration/harmonics plus the O-rings compressing. Of course shooting is the best way to find out.

No, I agree, you want to find out all you can and you have already found that rotating the inserts does change things and that the O-rings allow shimming and moves POI so time well spent I'd say!

I am getting excited waiting for updates now!

Keep up the good work and reports!

Longbow

[elmacgyver0]

The shims were only my way of seeing if I could affect the point of impact and it works but I dislike it.
One thing I dislike about the Chaszel inserts is the rotation to affect the point of impact.
The reason I dislike it is because of the cutouts to allow the removal of the spent cases.
I want the cutouts to be horizontal and not move, that is why I was experimenting with the shims in addition of more adjustability.
My real goal is to make an eccentric bushing that is adjustable from the muzzle with a tool.
This will be accomplished preferably without lathe work.
I want to make something that can be duplicated by someone who does not have access to machine tools.

[country gent]

Im thinking 3 small screws to adjust each barrel then when regulated the can be locktited and cut off and blended to the barrels. 1 will be just above the rib then 2 more at 120* and 240*. Should allow for adjustment and once regulated epoxy could be worked in to make a solid bushing between liner and barrel. If the o ring is far enough back it would act as a seal for the epoxy.
Strips of shims would do the same thing then the epoxy around them to lock everything in place.

[elmacgyver0]

More than one way to skin a cat, set screws should work fine.
I am working on a less invasive way to regulate the barrels.
My plan is to make a new extractor to engage the .45-70 brass to make extraction easier than a fingernail or screwdriver.