What's Your Setup for Shooting Groups?

[fourarmed]

I'm trying to find a load that shoots well in my new SA-35 Hi Power, and I'm not having much luck. It will shoot an acceptable (<3" at 25 yards) group occasionally, but more often one or two rounds won't even hit paper. I'm nearing 80, and not the shooter I was 20 years ago, so I got out some other 9mms and a .45 I always shot well to see if it could be some physical infirmity on my part. None of them shot as well as I remembered, but the worst fliers opened groups to around 5 or 6 inches, where many of the SA groups exceed 10.

I have tried using two-handed holds resting on sandbags, one-handed hold with the weak hand squeezing a bag under the butt and the barrel rested on other bags or some sort of padded commercial bench rest. The latter works fine with scoped silhouette guns, but short open sight pistols are a whole other deal.

I have good shooting glasses, and can see the sights clearly. A Ransom rest would be ideal but I don't have one. What do you guys find to be second-best?

[FergusonTO35]

What kind of ammo are you using? With standard factory FMJ it shouldn't have any rounds that don't hit the paper at all. Try some regular 115 grain FMJ, and if you still have fliers that are way off then something is wrong and the pistol needs to go back to SA. I know some of the Brownings had oversize bores and needed fat boolits. My 2016 model eats anything and is as accurate as any of my other side-irons.

[dverna]

Following with interest. I can scope some of my pistols but not the carry guns. I don't know how some folks can shoot 2" groups at 50 yards using iron sights.

[HWooldridge]

I always shoot for test groups using Elmer Keith's position of leaning back against a truck tire and resting both hands over my knees. I've shot handguns and even some rifles like that for over 40 years. Maybe it's just because the position is comfortable for my body type but my best targets have been shot from a sitting position.

Obviously, this doesn't work in a gunfight so some practice is still required but it's very stable for testing purposes.

It's also worth noting that I don't frequent shooting ranges and always shoot on private property - either mine or someone else's.

[pettypace]

From Hatcher's Textbook of Pistols and Revolvers, pp. 174-5:

"At Springfield Armory the thousands of automatic pistols specially selected for use at the National Matches are targeted by the use of an improvised rest made by taking a step ladder of the right height to support the forearm of the targeter, and fastening to the top of it a board with a V-shaped notch cut in it. This piece of board is adjustable up and down by means of a thumb-screw. This notched board is adjusted so that when the targeter's forearm rests on top of the step-ladder, the V-shaped notch will support the pistol by the receiver just forward of the trigger guard. This "receiver and forearm rest" is perhaps the most satisfactory method of testing heavy caliber revolvers for accuracy."

[wilecoyote]

Following with interest. I can scope some of my pistols but not the carry guns. I don't know how some folks can shoot 2" groups at 50 yards using iron sights.

...in my case, I would say " I can't see :-| how some folks etc. "...

[stubshaft]

The pistol range I shoot at doesn't have a bench to rest off of. I had a friend of mine put this together to be able to shoot accurately.

https://i.imgur.com/fzE54sam.jpg

[dtknowles]

When I shoot groups with a revolver or semi-auto pistol I rest the butt on a sandbag and use a two hand hold. Even with my sad eyes I can still hold 1" at 25 yards if the gun can but not many can. 3" is more typical. If the group is much bigger than that (counting flyers) something is seriously wrong.

Tim

[Forrest r]

I used to use a cardboard box and a rolled up towel to shoot test loads with. My eyes started to go in 2017/2018, this was the last group I shot with iron sights in 2017 testing loads for a 45acp/1911 10-shot group @ 50ft. Was testing for the 50ft indoor winter league. Cleaned house of the +/- 10 1911's/conversion kits and bought a cheap springfield armory range officer & was testing loads for it.
https://i.imgur.com/lxO5I66.jpg

Older now and the eyes went, wrist is done so I sold most of my molds/reloading dies & brass/target firearms. Still have the 1911's and use this pistol rest when I want to test loads.
https://www.amazon.com/HYSKORE-1003626-Parallax-Pistol-Sighting/dp/B0007LOX8C/ref=sr_1_6?crid=32MLLJPGX4SGU&keywords=pistol+rest&qid=1706785938&sprefix=pistol+rest%2Caps%2C99&sr=8-6

I cut the back portion (grip holding u with side screws) off and use sand bags instead. Put reddots on the target pistols & revolvers now. Helps the eyes but the wrists a still done.

A good example of wrists needing work. This is a test target shot with a 45acp/1911 @ 50ft using the rest pictured above. Same 4.3gr load of clays and 3 different bullet. All 3 test loads shot 1" or less 5-shot groups. The upper right target was 5-shot rapid fire (1 handed). As you can see I had 2 fliers.
https://i.imgur.com/N17hNIE.jpg

Your choice of targets will have a lot to do with your groups. The top target was shot with iron sights and used squares. It has a larger black and a smaller white square. Use which square line up the best for the yardage your testing/shooting at. The reddot targets are round. Put the round dot in the center of the round circle on the target.

[Barry54]

Thanks for the tip about using square targets with iron sights and round with red dots!

[Bigslug]

If you can set up something that allows you to support the frame's dust cover while using your normal grip and standing shooting position, including whatever you do for a head-tilt due to bifocals or progressives, that's probably your best bet. Maybe set up a rest atop a tall camera tripod.

Personally, I've come to a method that tries to identify and dial out this "broken human" as much as possible:

1. Tweak the load for low velocity spread and SD numbers over the chronograph. If you can make the gun cycle the same way every time, it should lock up and print the same, and any erratic results will theoretically be you. To that end, ensure consistent lockup by making sure your first round gets chambered with a full-speed, no-hands-riding slamming forward of the slide.

2. Several large test sample groups fired and compared. A five shot group with two flyers will have you questioning the ammo. A ten shot group with two or three flyers will give you more opportunity to say, "yeah, those were me". Several ten shot groups will clear that up further. Major repetition of severe flyers show when it's time to doubt the equipment and ammo.

Going from there depends on what you're after. At the point I've figured out how well I can shoot with a handgun, my goal is more about making ammo that can shoot a little better than me, rather than chase the gun's maximum potential - which it's doubtful I'll ever realize with wobbly arms and blurry eyes.

[fourarmed]

Thanks for all the excellent advice guys. Yesterday I took my old Hi Standard Citation with 5" barrel to the range to see what a known good shooter preferred.

At 25 yards, I shot two 5-shot groups holding it two-handed, sitting at a bench and resting my hands on bags. I was a little sloppy with the first one, it was 2.75". I did better onthe second, it was 2" even. Then I got out a plastic rest I picked up at a yard sale. It has a padded vee barrel support. I put the barrel in that with the butt on a bag held in one hand and pinching the bag with the other. Both groups went in 0.75".

I don't expect a 9mm with a 4.5 pound trigger to do what a match grade H-S will do, but this definitely tells me that the barrel rest is the way to go for me.

[hc18flyer]

I built a rectangular box about 30" long, with a u-shaped rest on top of one end. I can put the pistol in the u,(just forward of the trigger guard) and rest my elbows on the box. I can put a spacer under the butt of the grip, if needed. The box sits on top of our homemade portable shooting bench. hc18flyer

[fourarmed]

Today I made a wood V-notch to go in my steel pistol rest. I shot the SA-35 with the ammo it seems to like best in the plastic rest, and two groups were between 2 and 3 inches, which has not happened before. I shot a reload, and both groups were around 4", which is unprecedented. Then I tried the wood v-block in the steel rest, and the preferred load yielded two groups that were about 4" high, but less than 2" wide. I brought the V-block back to the shop and padded it.

Every group shot today was an improvement, and I'm hoping for more.

[Abert Rim]

Watching. An experienced friend and "Shootist" likes the discontinued Outers Pistol Perch design.

[murf205]

Following with interest. I can scope some of my pistols but not the carry guns. I don't know how some folks can shoot 2" groups at 50 yards using iron sights.

It's easy Don. Just use 20 yr old eyes!

[G W Wade]

Been designing a pistol rest in my head for quite a while. The V notch seems like the way to go but thinking of a wedge for the rear support. My thought was to allow the firearm to be held solid but recoil away from the rest and not slid across or bump in recoil GW

[steve urquell]

One thing I have found is that most targets are too danged busy. I started cutting my own target dots out of duct tape bought from the craft dept at Wal-Mart and am much happier with the results. Easy to see and not distracting.
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[Abert Rim]

Steve, another great idea of yours. :drinks:

[steve urquell]

Steve, another great idea of yours. :drinks:
Thanks Albert. Here's the full target. One centerfire, one rimfire. You can also aim at the points of the squares if you need a more precise aiming point.
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[FergusonTO35]

On a good day with a handgun I'm very familiar with (Glock 19/26/42, BHP, S&W 10-5, Ruger single action) I can usually do something like a 2-3 " group pretty consistently at 20 yards slow fire unsupported. I will have some fliers that are totally my fault but I don't sweat 'em. Fired the Glock 19 and 26 this afternoon and made neat clusters at this distance with a few flyers from shaky hands.

[fourarmed]

A friend who does the stats at our gun club bullseye league saves the used .22 targets for me, and I recycle them for bigbore use. Thinking of making some stencils to spray paint various sized squares on the backs of them. The front sight of my SA-35 subtends 4.5" at 25 yards, so that will be my first one.

[steve urquell]

A friend who does the stats at our gun club bullseye league saves the used .22 targets for me, and I recycle them for bigbore use. Thinking of making some stencils to spray paint various sized squares on the backs of them. The front sight of my SA-35 subtends 4.5" at 25 yards, so that will be my first one.

I hole sawed some stencils to dot my steel swinging targets and they work great. I tried it on paper targets and didn't like it too much. I like the tape better.
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[gnoahhh]

I use a Ransom Rest for load/accuracy testing. After finding the best load I put the ransom Rest away and get on with the shooting.

[fourarmed]

I am thinking about Ransom adaptors for this SA-35. None of the benching techniques I've tried so far seem to do much better than I can do standing isoceles. Yesterday I had 15 rounds of a handload left, so I shot two groups over my V-notch rest and one standing. The standing group came in second.

[rintinglen]

Yeah, but the bench rest groups were next to last.)

[Abert Rim]

Here is a rest I came up with for use with a CVA Scout pistol. I will modify the next one with a V rather than the U.
https://i.postimg.cc/sMCjwGYr/image-50416385.jpg (https://postimg.cc/sMCjwGYr)

https://i.postimg.cc/xJZYHXfB/image-50448129-1.jpg (https://postimg.cc/xJZYHXfB)

https://i.postimg.cc/RW1M8Cdn/image-67176705.jpg (https://postimg.cc/RW1M8Cdn)

[MT Gianni]

https://mtmcase-gard.com/products/pistol-handgun-rest-adjustable-all-plastic-rest

This looks too cheap and chintzy to work but I have used my Outers brand one for 30 + years.

[R-71]

I cannot shoot a decent group with a handgun from a bench, I use a braced standing position when working up loads. I start at 10 Yards and shoot one round and then shoot the rest at the bullet hole. All other practice is done off hand at varying ranges out to 50 yards. My primary handgun use is hunting and self defense.

[toxophilus]

I typically use the Caldwell Handy Shooting Rest (https://www.caldwellshooting.com/rests/shooting-rests/) along with an older pair of shooting bags that will support my forearms when I do testing of different handloads that I've developed or I'm testing out a new tool.

In the example below I was testing out a new to me .45 Blackhawk convertible using my .45 ACP handloads at 20 yards; the targets are 3" in diameter and getting harder to see at a distance :wink:

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[Abert Rim]

Nice targets, Toxophius. And welcome to the forum.

[Arthur Roy]

With iron sighted guns I have always done the Keith method. I just use a beach chair instead of a tree or other object. With a scoped handgun I use a classic sandbag type rest setup.

[white eagle]

me I use a Bog tripod that was designed for bench work works for handguns and ar's an I use it in my deer stand for sniping whitetails
back to handguns I use that with a sandbag under the rear like most of you all do
keep after it
your a inspiration

[FergusonTO35]

I practice with handguns from a standing or kneeling position since that's what I would use if I had to kill something. With my little Charter Arms Undercover or S&W 637 I can make about a 3" group pretty consistently single action at 15 yards. Double action at around 7 yards. I may try the classic gunfighter crouch sometime.

[FergusonTO35]

I typically use the Caldwell Handy Shooting Rest (https://www.caldwellshooting.com/rests/shooting-rests/) along with an older pair of shooting bags that will support my forearms when I do testing of different handloads that I've developed or I'm testing out a new tool.

In the example below I was testing out a new to me .45 Blackhawk convertible using my .45 ACP handloads at 20 yards; the targets are 3" in diameter and getting harder to see at a distance :wink:

323371


That Blackhawk is SWEET!

[fourarmed]

I appreciate all the information that I have gleaned here. I finally came to the conclusion that my pistol was one from the minus tail of the bell curve, and asked about returning it. Somewhat to my surprise, I was informed that accuracy was covered by the warranty, and I was issued a prepaid return label. It is already on its way back to Geneseo.

I had heard so many stories of people returning clunkers and getting them back with a note saying they met factory specs that I almost didn't bother asking. I hope their gunsmithing is as good as their customer service.

[Abert Rim]

Fourarmed, I hope they fix you right up. That's a nice pistol.

[Photog]

When I was running USPSA practices I settled on a "groups drill" that I think matches the "practical" aspect of handgunning. I never enjoyed sitting at a bench, so for those of you that enjoy 50yd slow fire super accurate fussyness, you can stop reading now.
At the beginning of practice, put 5 black pasters on a USPSA target (some one needs to call "BLack Tape" now).
Starting position is gun holstered, standing, unsupported firing. 3 x 10 rnd mags on your belt.
Step back 7 to 10 big steps.
Draw , load, and Fire 5 rounds at one of the black tape pasters.
Change mags.
Re-holster. Breathe.
Repeat for last 4 targets.

Repeat this drill at the end of practice.
Yep this is 50 rounds total and you have 10, 5 shot groups, fired offhand, unsupported. You also used all your mags if you rotated them, and you can see the effects of being tired from the practice. Speed on this is done at like 1 shot every 3-7 seconds. Not rapid not slow. Find your sights, call your shots.

Handgunning is a tough skill and its the interaction of you, your gun, and your ammo. How you hold the gun, how you look over the sights, and a good number of other factors change your accuracy. Its real hard to learn much by only shooting off a bench or rest.

[steve urquell]

Its real hard to learn much by only shooting off a bench or rest.
This entire thread is about mechanical accuracy, not practical accuracy. The OP wants to find a load that the gun shoots accurately. Rested slow fire is the proper way to do this, not blasting away from 7 yards offhand.

After mechanical accuracy is achieved and determining that the gun shoots to POA, practical accuracy can be tackled. Pretty basic steps in being able to hit what you are aiming at.

[FergusonTO35]

When I bail out my Super Wrangler I'm going to try resting it on shooting sticks like I do with rifles. Will be interested to see how well it does. I hope it is accurate with Aguila Interceptors, those are really fast and I would trust them for self defense.