38/200 S&W Webley Molds and Sizer Dies

[DonMountain]

I have been purchasing prefab projectiles for my Webley pistols in 38/200 from Matt's Bullets that shoot real well in my WWII English top-break Webley's. But now its coming down to the point where I would like to cast for them myself as I do for most of my other pistols and rifles. I use an RCBS Sizer/Lubricator and would need an appropriate sizing die and nose punch for that, plus the 200 grain mold that will cast at 0.361 or so. Anybody have source information?

[rintinglen]

NOE is your friend here. Go to the website and search for the mold you need. He will sell you the appropriate nose punch. You will have to order a .360 sizer from Lyman and polish it out or join the hunt on ebay for the older discontinued sizers.

[Tatume]

Try https://accuratemolds.com/

[Outpost75]

You will need larger than .360", better .362-.363". Mold is NOE .363-204RN. In the Brit top-breaks 2.1 grains of Bullseye or 2.5 of HP38 or 231 matches the service velocity.

I had DougGuy hone a Lee push-through sizer for me to .363"

[Bigslug]

The NOE 363-204-RN-W1 is the authentic .38/200 MK1 projectile, and they currently seem to have a bunch in stock. As I recall, I'm sizing mine to .362" but the memory is fuzzy.

If it was an oddball size, most likely I had Buffalo Arms knock out the sizing die for me.

[schutzen-jager]

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?462457-38-S-amp-W-Victory-Model-loads-(160-SWC-Hollow-Points)


https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?458323-38S-amp-W-boolits-sized361-362-for-the-38-S-amp-W

older threads on subject - picture of 1920s vintage U.S. cartridge co. showing bullet diameter used then for .38 S&W -

[Larry Gibson]

In a test sometime back of 38 S&W pressures I pulled apart some R-P and Winchester and found "The R-P factory bullets measured .362 in front of the crimp and .354 on the seated bullet diameter. The W-W factory bullets were .350 - .352 on the seated portion. It is no wonder, as you will see, accuracy was less than stellar out of my H&R with its .362” cylinder throats, .351 bore and .360 groove diameter. "

[schutzen-jager]

interesting specs -

[DonMountain]

NOE is your friend here. Go to the website and search for the mold you need. He will sell you the appropriate nose punch. You will have to order a .360 sizer from Lyman and polish it out or join the hunt on ebay for the older discontinued sizers.

Thank you for the NOE suggestion. I found the mold that evidently Matt's Bullets uses for their 200 grain 0.361 bullets. The next question is, how would I "polish it out" to maybe 0.362"? And how would I add to the bullet ram to match the 0.362" polished out sizing die?

[DonMountain]

The NOE 363-204-RN-W1 is the authentic .38/200 MK1 projectile, and they currently seem to have a bunch in stock. As I recall, I'm sizing mine to .362" but the memory is fuzzy.

If it was an oddball size, most likely I had Buffalo Arms knock out the sizing die for me.

Thank you Bigslug. I believe this is the info I am looking for. Everybody here seems to be talking about US made Smith and Wesson revolvers in 38 S&W American cartridge of the 1920's. But that is a different animal than the English Top Break Webley revolvers and the projectiles they are designed to shoot. I know during WW I American industry built rifles in 30 caliber, and England also built rifles in 30 caliber. Has anybody tried shooting an American 30 caliber (usually measuring 0.308") in an English rifle? I find my English rifles shoot far better with 0.314" bullets? It seems like their revolver's of the same cartridge built in the United States has the same problem of requiring oversize 38 caliber bullets. 0.357" USA = 0.362" England. Of course I know that everybody here knows about the English bullet size conundrum.

[DonMountain]

Several years ago I purchased a box of Remington 38 S&W cartridges with lead bullets from Walmart, and shot them at targets out of my two Webley top break revolvers. I can bench rest my Ruger Redhawk in 44 mag and keep all of them in a 6" circle at 100 yards. The 2 Webleys I couldn't keep on an 8-1/2" x 11" piece of paper at 10 yards with these purchased 38 S&W Remington cartridges. That's when I found out about the proper bullets for the 38/200 cartridge that Matt's Bullets sells. At 10 yards at point of aim I can put them all in an inch. Loading 0.357" bullets produced the same effective scattering as the Remington cartridges.

[Bigslug]

Welcome to the hell of cartridge nomenclature and designation - there never has been a standardized system, and there's a fair bit of cross contamination and marketing jingle involved in spots.

The cap and ball Colt ".36" caliber revolvers loaded a .375" ball. I assume the .36 was either where it was after loading swaged it down, or that was the bore diameter.

The .38 Special is .357" groove and probably about .346" bore. We size to .358-.359"

We size the .38S&W projectile in the .362" ballpark for its groove diameter.

Only the percussion gun could have a realistic claim to being called a .38, yet here we are. Similarly, our .44's aren't .44's either.

.45-70 = .45 caliber in front of 70 grains of black powder.

.30-30 & .30-40 = same designation system, but we're using smokeless now. Huh?

.30-06 = .30 caliber, adopted in 1906. . .at least I hope so, because I don't see .06 grains of anything really serving the need. . .

.308 Winchester - Shoots .308 bullets and designated by groove diameter. .300 Win Mag - Shoots the same .308 bullets and designated by bore diameter.

So yeah. . .very frustrating because the only way to know is to be a nerd and research the specific article. Fun huh?

[schutzen-jager]

before buying a mold or sizer it would be advisable to slug your bore - there was a recent extensive thread here on the subject that was deleted by admins due to policy violation by one poster - myself + other posters found all the bores we measured to be .357 to . 359 - the .38 S&W i owned + measured were S&W m+P, S+W victory, Enfield MK.2, S&W New Departure+ 3 NOS S+W victory barrels - all were perfectly accurate using the .38 Spec bullets that i use in my .38 specials -

[Tall]

SAAMI specs for 38 S&W are very specific. I find my Enfield revolver likes 200 grain bullets sized around .361".

322684

322685

[owejia]

My Enfield WWII top break slugged at .3635. I use the 364-200 Noe bullet mould and use the Noe push thru .364 sizer. Could put 4 out of 6 in a 3" circle double action only with the heavy trigger pull, a few years ago, but 77 yr old arthritic hands don't work that well now. Also have a Colt PP 38 S&W that slugged .357, H & R Victor at .360 and a H & R top break at .361, so really need to slug your barrel to determine what size mould you need. Just went and checked my Noe Mould box 364-200 [ 38 S & W crtge]

[Outpost75]

The WW2 British Ordnance drawings have little or nothing in common with SAAMI. SAAMI dimensions are fine if you are shooting a 1960 era S&W Terrier or Regulation Police, but not prewar guns.

Both of my. WW2 S&W Victories have cylinder throats which pin out at .364" and have barrel groove diameters of .362". Likewise for my Webley & Scot Mk4.

My 1985 Ruger India Model and 1920 Colt Police Positive both have cylinder throats whiich pin .358 and barrel groove diameters of .355". Both being tighter than SAAMI minimums.

FYI the Ruger was among those assembled using leftover parts from the French 9mm order, which explains the tight barrel. The Colt was assembled using barrels cut with the same tooling then used for .38 Special. Pre-WW2 Colt .38s in both calbbers were typically .354-.355 groove diameter, being tighter than your beloved SAAMI specs.

[kenton]

SAAMI specs call for a .361 bullet and a .3595 groove diameter.

https://saami.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/SAAMI-Z299.3-2022-Centerfire-Pistol-Revolver-Approved-12-13-2022.pdf

Page #38 or 47 according the the PDF software.

[schutzen-jager]

SAAMI have always been voluntary + not binding on any manufacturers at all - most SAAMI specs are not formulated for months or years after new cartridge introduction - slugged one of my new old stock S&W victory barrels + it is .358 - many decades of shooting my numerous .38 S&W handguns + have always achieved better accuracy with .358 + .359 than with any bullet over .360 - this quote is from old American Handloader magazine =

[In a 4″ barrel my cast bullet loads using Lyman’s #358 311RN and #358477 SWC as well as the Oregon Trail 158 SWC loaded over 3.0 grains of Unique generally give muzzle velocities well over 800 fps. By dropping back to 2.5 grains you get a more reasonable 650 fps. Although the .38 S&W really uses .360″ bullets, standard .358″ diameter bullets work just fine.]