Problems with a weird wildcat: .338 Razorback

[Fist]

Hey folks,

First time here and pretty new to casting. I’ve been trying to get a cast load worked up for my favorite rifle. It’s an AR pattern in .338 Razorback from Ron Williams of RMWXtreme out of Florida. Parent case is 10mm auto necked down to accept .338 rifle projectiles. Works great with 300gr SMK on 8 grains of Lil’ Gun. Problem is, those bullets cost. So I got a 315gr flat point NOE mould and tried to make it work. Not good. the flat points smash into the star chamber and at best damage the boolit but usually just fail to feed. I’ll post a pic of what that looks like, the drawing of the mould and the other mould I’m considering. Its a 273 round nose that should feed easier I think, but there remains an issue. Even though I sized down to .339 and then .338, the widest point of the bullet engages the lands and doesnt want to seat fully, and then sticks when you try and eject a loaded round. Any thoughts on how to alleviate this?

Thanks guys ✊🏻322482322483322484

[Dusty Bannister]

If the sides of the nose of the bullet is contacting the lands in the barrel and preventing fully chambering the round. You need a smaller nose. It appears you are powder coating the bullet that does not work (Flat nose). If you are powder coating the second bullet (RN) you should consider trying it with either a few light coats of the tumble lube bullets or use a soft wax bullet lube. Adding a couple of thousandths of diameter powder coating to a correctly cast bullet is likely the problem.

[DDriller]

Just like in the .338 spectre you will either have to seat them deep enough to not hit the lands or find a more pointed bullet

[Texas by God]

Are you using a 6.8 magazine or a 5.56 magazine?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Fist]

Are you using a 6.8 magazine or a 5.56 magazine?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I’ve only ran 6.8 SPC mags with the gun. 100% reliable with factory projectiles

[Fist]

Okay, sounds like I’ll have to find the sweet spot. Most of the OAL is projectile so I can’t seat too deep or I’ll have a big gap between the nose of the bullet and the front wall of the magazine. Not to mention the jump after the round strips might not help reliability. 322527

[Fist]

If the sides of the nose of the bullet is contacting the lands in the barrel and preventing fully chambering the round. You need a smaller nose. It appears you are powder coating the bullet that does not work (Flat nose). If you are powder coating the second bullet (RN) you should consider trying it with either a few light coats of the tumble lube bullets or use a soft wax bullet lube. Adding a couple of thousandths of diameter powder coating to a correctly cast bullet is likely the problem.

Even if I size after coating? And I probably wouldn’t bother coating, but I hear uncoated boolits are a no go for suppressors. Is this true?

[DDriller]

You can load to 2.05" COL and be fine. There won't be much jump because the bullet will be close to the lands anyway. Measure the length of the bullet that is swaged down and shorten your length that much. Will also have to reduce your powder charge due to seating deeper.
I have been running mine for about 10 years with the short length and do not have any issues.

[Fist]

You can load to 2.05" COL and be fine. There won't be much jump because the bullet will be close to the lands anyway. Measure the length of the bullet that is swaged down and shorten your length that much. Will also have to reduce your powder charge due to seating deeper.
I have been running mine for about 10 years with the short length and do not have any issues.

The drawing for the round nose I’m considering has the length from the shoulder to the tip at .707, beer math gives me a COAL of about 1.60. That’s obviously short, so I should have that shoulder exposed, but thats where I ran into the jamming issue on the flat nose. You can see that damage just fore of the case mouth in my picture in OP. Still can’t figure that part out, as seating depth doesnt seem to matter with factory pills. Have you had success with cast loads in this round? Do you have a mold you recommend?

[405grain]

Even if I size after coating?
When you size a bullet you're only sizing the driving bands, not the bullet's nose. Powder coating can make a bullets nose too fat, and that can effect chambering. Two things that have been tried to fix this have been either making a nose sizing die, or just powder coat the driving bands and leave the nose bare. Cans aren't allowed where I live, but I take it that the problem with lubed bullets is that lube and powder residue build up inside the suppressor and require frequent cleaning. Before you go off on extremes I suggest that you send a PM to Smoke4320 and ask him what powder would give you the thinnest coating, and what process would also help you get a thin but effective coating. My recommendation is that you size the bullets both before and after powder coating so that if you are applying a thin coat it won't get overworked by trying to size the bullet down too much all at once.

[Wayne Smith]

Even if you size after coating because it is the olgive of the boolit that is making contact, not the full size diameter, which sizing addresses. NOE does make a nose sizer die if you want to check that out.

[Fist]

Even if you size after coating because it is the olgive of the boolit that is making contact, not the full size diameter, which sizing addresses. NOE does make a nose sizer die if you want to check that out.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but the contact seems to be happening to the rear of the ogive. You can see where the boolit jammed against the lands where the coating is damaged near the mouth of the case in my picture.

[Wayne Smith]

It would take a considerable amount of sizing to reach that point, I think. Hard to tell with the small picture.

[405grain]

Looking at the diagrams for both of the NOE bullets, then comparing them to the photograph of your damaged cartridge, it looks like you're trying to force the bullet's driving band into the barrel throat and lands. You could try seating the bullet deeper into the case, but doing so will decrease the powder capacity and WILL increase the cartridges pressure.

[Fist]

Looking at the diagrams for both of the NOE bullets, then comparing them to the photograph of your damaged cartridge, it looks like you're trying to force the bullet's driving band into the barrel throat and lands. You could try seating the bullet deeper into the case, but doing so will decrease the powder capacity and WILL increase the cartridges pressure.

That’s what I had feared. I think the extra seating depth will will put me under an acceptable COAL anyway. Any speculation why I dont run into this issue with factory projectiles? In the picture in one of my replies you can see just how far out I have these things seated, that particular one is a 285gr Maker Expanding but the 300gr SMK have a similar COAL and I do not run into the projectile interfering with the throat/lands. It may very well be neither of these mold designs are compatible with the concept but I struggle to understand why the thickest point on both factory and cast bullets does not exceed .338 and only the cast run into this issue.

[475AR]

I have worked with Ron from RMW XTREME for years and I have had a couple of molds cut specifically for the 338 Razorback, when I get home I will pull the molds and post them here for you. The .338 Razor back is a very neat cartridge and is extremely quiet when suppressed. I have see several hogs taken with the 250gr kacleted bullets that were DRT after the shot.

[Fist]

I have worked with Ron from RMW XTREME for years and I have had a couple of molds cut specifically for the 338 Razorback, when I get home I will pull the molds and post them here for you. The .338 Razor back is a very neat cartridge and is extremely quiet when suppressed. I have see several hogs taken with the 250gr kacleted bullets that were DRT after the shot.

That’d be great! It seems like I’ll have to go the custom mold route at this point so I’m certainly grateful for a starting point.

[Recycled bullet]

Okay, sounds like I’ll have to find the sweet spot. Most of the OAL is projectile so I can’t seat too deep or I’ll have a big gap between the nose of the bullet and the front wall of the magazine. Not to mention the jump after the round strips might not help reliability. 322527That is the most interesting looking cartridge! It looks like a 357 Sig cartridge with a 35 Remington bullet sitting in it :-)

[Recycled bullet]

I had a similar issue with 300 blackout. My solution is seat slightly deeper and use less powder when I tumble coated powder paint onto the bullets then baked. The slightly thinner coating does not seem to have negatively affected accuracy or ability to withstand pressure because after continuous shooting of hundreds of rounds the barrel is not leaded yet. The biggest Improvement is chambering is now perfect and feeding from magazine into chamber is better. I used a Ford light blue powder coat powder paint from Powder by the pound.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240125/6fa033ab75bb03acc8abc3b2829c447c.jpg

[Fist]

I had a similar issue with 300 blackout. My solution is seat slightly deeper and use less powder when I tumble coated powder paint onto the bullets then baked. The slightly thinner coating does not seem to have negatively affected accuracy or ability to withstand pressure because after continuous shooting of hundreds of rounds the barrel is not leaded yet. The biggest Improvement is chambering is now perfect and feeding from magazine into chamber is better. I used a Ford light blue powder coat powder paint from Powder by the pound.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240125/6fa033ab75bb03acc8abc3b2829c447c.jpg

Thanks for the tip. I hadn’t considered going “au naturale” with the boolits but I’ll try testing a couple seated deeper and with less/no coating.

[Recycled bullet]

Thanks for the tip. I hadn’t considered going “au naturale” with the boolits but I’ll try testing a couple seated deeper and with less/no coating.This is the thinner powder coat layer. Coverage is still very good. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240125/dcae98fd5e69bd30356c8a20f9af9bd1.jpg

[475AR]

I ended up working late, but I will do it tonight.

[Fist]

I ended up working late, but I will do it tonight.

No rush brother. I appreciate it!

[jdgabbard]

Something else that you might consider...

I saw a video a while back where the guy was having a similar issue. His solution was actually quite impressive. What he did is mix his PC solution in a solvent, and create a thicker liquid which he then dipped the bodies of the bullets in (sort of like the guys that used to do with Lee's Liquid Alox when they didn't want bullets with sticky noses while handling them). He then stuck them nose up on a cookie sheet to dry before placing them in the oven for curing. This made a bullet that was PC'd on the body and base, but the nose was still bare.

Depending on how much engagement you're getting this may work, but you'll have exposed lead on the nose, which may or may not build up in the bore - most noses have a certain amount of "bore riding" length to them where the boolit is slightly larger than bore diameter.

Other than that, you may have to seat deeper or use a nose sizer like mentioned before.

[Sandro_ventania]

Just curious...What is the purpose of this wild cat? He is very different.

[jdgabbard]

Just curious...What is the purpose of this wild cat? He is very different.

I would guess to throw a heavy at extremely low velocities. Probably a similar concept to the 30 Reece/30 Badger.

[Fist]

Just curious...What is the purpose of this wild cat? He is very different.

Mainly powder efficiency so far as I can tell. Cheap parent case, tiny powder charges and hopefully someday a working cast boolit means I can shoot .300 Blackout but with 50% more energy and do it on the cheap.

[475AR]

Mainly powder efficiency so far as I can tell. Cheap parent case, tiny powder charges and hopefully someday a working cast boolit means I can shoot .300 Blackout but with 50% more energy and do it on the cheap.

The main thoughts behind this round is as has been stated, cheap brass available all the time, easy to form case, small powder charges and still 1050-1080 fps, rinse in AR15 with stock carbine spring and standard buffer. As well as ability to use 300gr + bullets.
The 338 Razorback does run with cast bullets but you have to use a correctly designed mold. With that said, using a bore ride bullet is a must so you can get the nose out farther to have good case capacity. I suggest using a bore riding design and when measuring for the diameter of the bore ride section you need to account for the thickness of the coating if you powder coat. Also I would suggest NOE's nose sizing bushings be used as well.
Here are some of the bullets I have used without issue (when sized correctly in the bore ride section if they are bore ride bullets)
322631
From left to right.
Accurate Molds 34-310Z 310gr
Accurate Molds 34-300F 300gr
NOE Molds 341-245-SP-R1 250gr
Accurate Molds 34-250Z 250gr
I mainly hunt with the Sierra 250gr open tip boattail bullets, because I got a ton of them in the past and they shoot very well in my gun and smack hogs as if hit by a bolt of lightning. When I want to practice I load up the NOE 250gr bullets that I coat with BCB Coatings polymer coating.
The 300gr and the 310gr cast shot well also but I haven't shot a hog with one yet.
Also the coated bullets in the pic were coated with Hi Tec coating which I like to use as well when a super thin coating is needed (like in the bore riding section)

[Fist]

The main thoughts behind this round is as has been stated, cheap brass available all the time, easy to form case, small powder charges and still 1050-1080 fps, rinse in AR15 with stock carbine spring and standard buffer. As well as ability to use 300gr + bullets.
The 338 Razorback does run with cast bullets but you have to use a correctly designed mold. With that said, using a bore ride bullet is a must so you can get the nose out farther to have good case capacity. I suggest using a bore riding design and when measuring for the diameter of the bore ride section you need to account for the thickness of the coating if you powder coat. Also I would suggest NOE's nose sizing bushings be used as well.
Here are some of the bullets I have used without issue (when sized correctly in the bore ride section if they are bore ride bullets)
322631
From left to right.
Accurate Molds 34-310Z 310gr
Accurate Molds 34-300F 300gr
NOE Molds 341-245-SP-R1 250gr
Accurate Molds 34-250Z 250gr
I mainly hunt with the Sierra 250gr open tip boattail bullets, because I got a ton of them in the past and they shoot very well in my gun and smack hogs as if hit by a bolt of lightning. When I want to practice I load up the NOE 250gr bullets that I coat with BCB Coatings polymer coating.
The 300gr and the 310gr cast shot well also but I haven't shot a hog with one yet.
Also the coated bullets in the pic were coated with Hi Tec coating which I like to use as well when a super thin coating is needed (like in the bore riding section)

Thank you so much, this is amazing info. Have you had any issues at all with the Flat Nose design hanging up on the star chamber?

[475AR]

Thank you so much, this is amazing info. Have you had any issues at all with the Flat Nose design hanging up on the star chamber?

No, you need to get the COL correct, I have to look, I don't remember if I did any ramp work on my Razorback but I don't think I did.