Electrically fired rifles

[Nobade]

OK, it's been done before by CVA with their Electra. What I don't know is why it was discontinued. Did it not work, or was it just a case of nobody bought one? Maybe someone here knows. Anyhow, it looks like the time may be right for some enterprising person with good electronics knowledge to come up with another battery powered rifle. Got any ideas?

[M-Tecs]

The Remington's Model 700 EtronX failed because few purchased them and those that did discovered lock time was not as claimed. The primer was basically a glow plug.

[LAGS]

I use to fire a cannon with model rocket electric igniters.
I don't think it will work well for rifles.
There is all kinds of delays every time you fire it.
But I do know that the military did have an electric fired 20 mm aircraft machine gun back in the '60s or '70s.
I also did try firing the cannon with an igniter made from an electric capacitor.
That did not work well at all.

[cwtebay]

Exactly what I was thinking about. I purchased one from Armslist several years ago with several hundred rounds of ammunition and a brick of the primers. I was too much of a coward to reload these but they definitely made the resale price higher.
It's actually faster. MUCH faster It probably would have made me a better rifleman had I kept it.
I have a Model 7 in 243 to compare it to - but that 700 was incredibly accurate and I had no problems with it. Someone offered me more than I thought it was worth and it left my hands. I kept a couple pieces of loaded ammunition and a box for my collector mind and let it go.
As far as my experience went, it was the best Remington that I have ever owned in regards to accuracy. The key thing was definitely wonky though.

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk

[Gtrubicon]

That Remington etronx was something I didn’t want to touch with a 10’ pole. My local LGS couldn’t give the only one he had away after a couple years. He even tried donating it for a raffle, no go. 18 years later I bet it’s still in a box in the back of the shop!

[M-Tecs]

That Remington etronx was something I didn’t want to touch with a 10’ pole. My local LGS couldn’t give the only one he had away after a couple years. He even tried donating it for a raffle, no go. 18 years later I bet it’s still in a box in the back of the shop!

They are easily convertible to use standard bolts/trigger. The two friends of mine than had them converted years ago.

[Gtrubicon]

Glad they got outa that mess, but at what cost to them? Bolts and triggers aren’t cheap.

[Nobade]

Yes, the Etronix was a different animal since it needed those special primers. I don't think the CVA needed anything except a battery. But I've never gotten any real info on how they actually worked. Or if they did at all.

[M-Tecs]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UvxHBUNXBA0

[charlie b]

That would be tempting these days with primers in short supply.

PS fired a lot of rounds from an electric ignition. But it was a 105mm tank cannon :) Interesting point. The electronic ignition lights a black powder primer to set off the main charge. Backup power to the primer was a blasting cap machine (fast twist to ignite).

[Sandro_ventania]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UvxHBUNXBA0

wow... This has always been on my mind! Very cool to see that it works. I think I'm going to build one for myself! buying a 9v battery is easier than caps

[freakonaleash]

It's stupid.

[Bmi48219]

It's stupid.

Maybe to a purist black powder muzzle loading enthusiast, but from a practical standpoint I think it’s a great innovation. Faster positive ignition time is a big plus. Same for eliminating the step of handling caps / primers.

Caps and 209 primers availability is not immune to market demand OR legislative restriction. When primers became unavailable a few years back I started a thread regarding the practicality of electronic ignition as an alternative for center fire primers. I still think it can be a viable option. The ignition module of the CVA Electra would be a good place to start. Incorporating an Electra-type spark plug into a bolt shouldn’t be too difficult. Replacing a standard primer with a pill of extruded black powder or other combustible material and a durable, moisture-proof, flammable seal would take some tinkering but isn’t impossible.
Biggest problems I see for this ignition system in a breech loader would be getting a tight gas seal around the ‘primer’ pocket, and for repeaters, the time it takes to recharge the capacitor(s).

[popper]

CD discharge spark plug. Fouled plugs like on cars. And no hot aluminum/lead to ignite powder. Think I'll stick with primers.

[elmacgyver0]

Not for everyone, but what is wrong with more options?
Electronically fired munitions is nothing new, for the military anyway.
The ATF would have a cow if someone did it in an autoloader.

[country gent]

It is very interesting tech to see and could be practical. The 9 volt battery is probably cheaper than 200 caps. A fast lock time and set up with useable features all around

I believe if Remington had done a little more work,advertising and promotion maybe a few different style as to action type and such the electronic would have been better received.

I also believe both these rifles are taking us closer to caseless ammo. The technology is now there to no longer need primers. So one of the hurdles is gone.

[charlie b]

The problem with smokeless is you need something like a booster that is ignited by the system. Fine black powder might work, or maybe a duplex type load with a very fast powder ignited by the system and that ignites the main charge.

Black powder would probably ignite easily on it's own. As shown in the CVA video.

And, yes, I can see the need to clean the spark system on a regular basis. Seems ideal for inline muzzle loaders.

FWIW, there were at least a couple of prototype rifle systems done for the US military that were caseless and used an electronic ignition system. I remember at least one failed simply due to the fragile nature of the caseless cartridges. As with many ideas, they were passed over simply due to funding. Traditionalists rule the procurement systems. No funding means no working out the 'kinks'.

[Bmi48219]

Case-less cartridges would probably be the end of reloading as we know it.

[FergusonTO35]

If a spark plug can ignite an air/fuel mixture in a thousandth of a second I see no reason it wouldn't work in a firearm. 209's are vaporware around here. Strangely, caps are pretty easy to find but of course that could change instantly.

[freakonaleash]

What's the point? Just buy a cartridge gun and move on.

[Nobade]

What's the point? Just buy a cartridge gun and move on.

Because it would be primarily an interesting engineering exercise. And if you happen to be in a situation where no ammunition was available it might save your neck. But mainly because it's fun to do things others aren't doing. There are a lot of us here making caps and powder because of that. Sure I could go buy a brick of 22's and be done with it but where is the fun in that?

[dondiego]

Because it would be primarily an interesting engineering exercise. And if you happen to be in a situation where no ammunition was available it might save your neck. But mainly because it's fun to do things others aren't doing. There are a lot of us here making caps and powder because of that. Sure I could go buy a brick of 22's and be done with it but where is the fun in that?

The Wright brothers were told to just go buy a horse too. People said that if men were supposed to fly, they would have wings! Technology moves forward.

[firefly1957]

I have had the same thought over the years did a little work with the electric part of a cigarette lighter it would throw black powder but not light it even confined .
A lighter has a small piece of clear quarts that is hit with a striker to produce a electric charge . I would think a higher amperage battery powered unit may work if you made the proper arc points in the gun chamber . If you try that route it might be worth looking at starting the front of the charge to see if you get good results .

[Bmi48219]

What's the point? Just buy a cartridge gun and move on.

When primers hit $150 or $200 a thousand, the point of an alternate ignition system will become obvious.

[M-Tecs]

Not sure how cost effective the current systems would be for smokeless powder? All of the actual military rounds I have actual experience with used an electronic fired primer in a large system that had a significant power source.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_firing

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrothermal-chemical_technology

https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/electric-cartridge-primers-gone-but-not-lamented/

[freakonaleash]

When primers hit $150 or $200 a thousand, the point of an alternate ignition system will become obvious.
Yep, maybe a flint lock.....
I laid in 20K primers many years ago so I won't be paying those prices. But whatever, have fun with your electric muzzleloader.

[Sandro_ventania]

When primers hit $150 or $200 a thousand, the point of an alternate ignition system will become obvious.

In Brazil we have already paid $300 since the end of the pandemic. I think they are trying to end recharging all over the world.

[Nobade]

That does indeed look like the plan, or possibly military contracts are so lucrative that it's not worth making them for civilian use.

[Bmi48219]

That does indeed look like the plan, or possibly military contracts are so lucrative that it's not worth making them for civilian use.

No doubt loaded ammo on the retail market generates more a higher profit margin per dollar invested than primers alone. I’m seeing various primer brands around $80 per thousand at some online retailers. As rare as primers are I don’t imagine they’re priced at cost as a loss leader. I’m guessing they are buying them for $50 or $60 tops.

Sounds like in Brazil they want you to use your last primer on yourself.

[Bmi48219]

Yep, maybe a flint lock.....
I laid in 20K primers many years ago so I won't be paying those prices. But whatever, have fun with your electric muzzleloader.

If 20K primers have kept you well supplied for both ‘many years’ and the foreseeable future, I guess you don’t have any worries.

[cwtebay]

Yep, maybe a flint lock.....
I laid in 20K primers many years ago so I won't be paying those prices. But whatever, have fun with your electric muzzleloader.I see that your profession has been a "full time muzzleloader gun maker" since 1996. How can you discount that there could be an alternate ignition source? I don't understand why anyone would discount methods and methodology that are nuanced.
A new lever action? A (new to you apparently) ignition system is reprehensive to you?
I just don't understand why you won't let someone enjoy the new? I have owned more 19th century Winchester's than I can count, and enjoy them to the Nth degree!! But new thoughts on that? I am good with that. Like I said in an earlier post - Teddy Roosevelt had a more advanced rifle than Smith and Wesson has come out with. I would also imagine that an alternate ignition source would have been embraced by the Lewis and Clark expedition (Oh wait....they did).

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk

[Garyshome]

Electrically fired rifles/pistols.....good for testing questionable firearms and loads!

[freakonaleash]

I see that your profession has been a "full time muzzleloader gun maker" since 1996. How can you discount that there could be an alternate ignition source? I don't understand why anyone would discount methods and methodology that are nuanced.
A new lever action? A (new to you apparently) ignition system is reprehensive to you?
I just don't understand why you won't let someone enjoy the new? I have owned more 19th century Winchester's than I can count, and enjoy them to the Nth degree!! But new thoughts on that? I am good with that. Like I said in an earlier post - Teddy Roosevelt had a more advanced rifle than Smith and Wesson has come out with. I would also imagine that an alternate ignition source would have been embraced by the Lewis and Clark expedition (Oh wait....they did).

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk

I made only high end custom flintlocks. My customers had no interest in electronic guns. If they did I wouldn't make them anyway.

[LAGS]

Electronic fired BP rifles is something that the guys that are into in lines might like.
But I too agree that standard BP guns should stay along Traditional levels to maintain the history of that style guns.
The traditional style rifles don't have to be totally exact to the original guns.
But some improvements in their designs is very good for making them more reliable at times.
Like different rifling or maybe sights.

[charlie b]

Guns and gun powder evolved over time. No one in the 1700's dreamed of shooting a 10" plate at over 1000yd with cartridges ammunition.

Some folks like the older stuff, some like modern stuff, some like a bit of everything.

ML has been 'hijacked' due to hunting regulations and seasons. I would bet that if there were no ML only seasons, then inlines would go away. Same with synthetic stocks and stainless barrels on flintlocks. Electronic ignition is just another of those things. These days it has the added benefit of not needing hard to find caps/primers.

Me? I'm an engineer. I always try to 'fix' things that don't need to be fixed. :) And, yes, I do think caseless ammo will become standard over time. Or other methods of propelling a projectile. And, yes, small guided projectiles. Pretty soon, our current 'modern' arms will be obsolete as well.

[wilecoyote]

300$ primers here it's a steal,
but tesla guns...they're not exactly what I dreamed of :-)

[dtknowles]

The problem that electronic ignition systems cure is not a big enough problem to overcome the resistance to change.

We have many current systems in place that work fine and have be in use for a long time and have products in the distribution channels. Anything new has to overcome resistance to change. If 209's and caps go 10x in price maybe things would change.

Kind of the same deal for caseless ammo. If brass prices go 100x caseless ammo would look a lot more attractive. The original Sharps breach loading rifle was caseless. Imagine that rifle with an electronic ignition. Might be cool.

Someone mentioned experimenting with a piezo electric spark ignitor. The tiny one in cigarette lighters or gas grills don't have enough power but if you increase the size of the crystal and the force of the striker the spark gets stronger. I wonder how big it would have to get to work with black powder.

Tim

[cwtebay]

Excellent post!
Caseless ammunition has a ways to go. I like the idea of electronic priming, but where is the heat sink? Try picking up the first brass fired from a rifle versus the tenth. Not sure how that's going to be mitigated, but I am looking forward to seeing thoughts and aspects on the project that started with the Volcanic about 174 years ago.

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk

[405grain]

It's electric, and when you use it flames come shooting out. So, basically it's a Tesla. :mrgreen:

[Bmi48219]

……I like the idea of electronic priming, but where is the heat sink? Try picking up the first brass fired from a rifle versus the tenth….

What would a heat sink do in the process?
The piezoelectric igniter on a gas grill etc just doesn’t produce enough spark IMO. CVA System uses a capacitor powered by a 9 volt battery. Only question I have is the time recharge the capacitor. For a muzzle loader you’re not planning on a fast follow up shot but for a repeater it would be important.

[cwtebay]

What would a heat sink do in the process?
The piezoelectric igniter on a gas grill etc just doesn’t produce enough spark IMO. CVA System uses a capacitor powered by a 9 volt battery. Only question I have is the time recharge the capacitor. For a muzzle loader you’re not planning on a fast follow up shot but for a repeater it would be important.Apologies - not a comment for a muzzleloader. Meant for the talk of caseless ammunition.

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk

[Bmi48219]

300$ primers here it's a steal,
but tesla guns...they're not exactly what I dreamed of :-)

If $300 primers are a steal, what does a box of 38 special or 9x21 mm cost?

[Richard66]

CVA Electra for sale on Gun Broker if anyone wants to own one

[Bmi48219]

….Meant for the talk of caseless ammunition…

I’m sure case-less ammo will eventually become the norm, not looking forward to it since it probably won’t be adaptable to reloaders. Electronic ignition intrigues me since it could be made to work with a standard cartridge case.

[Nobade]

In a way, the inline muzzleloader crowd already has caseless ammunition in the form of pellets and the bullets they use. Glue the two together and you're there.

[freakonaleash]

So if you're inventing electric ignition because caps are going to be too expensive in the future, wouldn't it be easier to buy a lifetimes worth of caps now and not worry about it? I have 8k percussion caps on hand that I bought in the 80s and 90s. They were $36 ,per 1000. I don't believe I'll ever run out.

[dtknowles]

What would a heat sink do in the process?
The piezoelectric igniter on a gas grill etc just doesn’t produce enough spark IMO. CVA System uses a capacitor powered by a 9 volt battery. Only question I have is the time recharge the capacitor. For a muzzle loader you’re not planning on a fast follow up shot but for a repeater it would be important.

Yeah, the muzzleloader does not need a fast cycle time, but semi or full auto would need a higher recycle time. To increase the cycle time, you need a bigger higher voltage battery with low impedance and bigger wires. I don't think it would add much weight or cost and probably should be rechargeable. You can make as big a spark as you want all the way to like arc welding sparks. Actually, with a semi or full auto you could eliminate the battery and use a magneto connected to the operating rod for all but the first shot.
Tim

[dtknowles]

So if you're inventing electric ignition because caps are going to be too expensive in the future, wouldn't it be easier to buy a lifetimes worth of caps now and not worry about it? I have 8k percussion caps on hand that I bought in the 80s and 90s. They were $36 ,per 1000. I don't believe I'll ever run out.

People who experiment and develop new things are often thinking about the future, not necessarily their own future but other people maybe even some people who are not yet born. Everything is not about us today but maybe a legacy or making things better for those who will come later. Some of us are just born experimenters and it is not the end product the interests us it is the process, the journey that stimulates us. Why are you trying to discourage experimentation? By the way that 80's or 90's dollars are worth more than twice the dollar today, so those $36/k caps actually cost more than $72/k in today's dollars plus you had to store them with the attendant risk of loss or degradation.

Tim

[dtknowles]

In a way, the inline muzzleloader crowd already has caseless ammunition in the form of pellets and the bullets they use. Glue the two together and you're there.

Yes, you could even use loose powder and a nitrated paper or linen envelope. An action like the Sharps or Hall with electronic ignition and you could have a breachloading caseless rifle that does not need a cap.

Tim

[dtknowles]

Apologies - not a comment for a muzzleloader. Meant for the talk of caseless ammunition.

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk

In guns that use a cartridge that are firing at a high rate of fire the brass case traps a lot of the heat of combustion and removes that heat when the brass is ejected keeping the gun cooler. Heat build up in the gun is an issue for rapid fire. It is also one of the reasons that a lot of fully automatic guns fire from an open bolt so that a round does not spend time in a hot barrel that could possibly cause it to "cook off".

Tim

[wilecoyote]

If $300 primers are a steal, what does a box of 38 special or 9x21 mm cost?
if I don't go wrong, I remember around one year ago 240€ asked for 1000CCI BRLR brick_ next I never verified their Wall Street LGS up or down_ and they were OldStock from before the pandemic, not freshly imported, btw_
I think 9x21 or 9x19 so-so quality today are around 15€ maybe the .38s something more, at the shooting range_

really since my first and last 65€ - 20pc.box of .444FTX, before the pandemic, I never bought store ammo, nor I will_

[rbuck351]

The point is, many states have primitive hunting seasons where cartridge guns are not legal.

[Nobade]

Heck, if you really wanted to be creative it would be possible to build a man portable firearm using compressed gas for propellant and electronic ignition. No need for gunpowder at all. Think of a more advanced spud gun.

[Bmi48219]

……Actually, with a semi or full auto you could eliminate the battery and use a magneto connected to the operating rod for all but the first shot.

IIRC, THE Remington attempt at electronic ignition used several capacitors. Not sure if they were wired in series, I don’t know that much about them.
If you remove an old style condenser from a distributor without grounding it and trick someone into picking it up, the electrical discharge is eye watering, I found that out.
The magneto idea occurred to me too. I had an old BSA that had an ET (energy transfer) ignition system. Two cylinders, with a large coil and small coil for each. Somehow when the spark went to one plug part of the current went to the smaller coil to recharge the large coil for the next spark.
My thought is to load the powder and projectile as we do now, just replace the primer with something like flash powder and seal it into the cartridge base with a primer-size adhesive foil disc. Mount the spark electrode on the breech / bolt face where the firing pin went. Maybe a replaceable tapered ceramic / brass cone around it that will fit the bottom of the primer pocket to seal the gas.
When the bolt closes the electrode punctures the foil, pulling the trigger / switch releases the stored electric charge.
Obviously all this is just whimsical musings now. Intriguing none the less. Someone a long time ago went through a similar mental exercise to invent the percussive cap.
From what I’ve read about caseless ammo, the durability, consistency and susceptibility to moisture put it way beyond my abilities. Nor do I see how a regular guy could fine tune his caseless loads like we can now. We wouldn’t be ‘reloading’ caseless ammo, there’s nothing to reload,just assembling components.

[LAGS]

Back when I played with using a Capacitor to fire a gun.
It would ignite Smokeless Powder or Flash Powder fine.
But it wouldn't always ignite Black Powder.

[Idz]

The 20mm Vulcan (Phalanx) cannon round uses an electric primer. These high firing rate guns required more precise primer ignition and reliability than a mechanical primer could provide.

[Bmi48219]

…..I think 9x21 or 9x19 so-so quality today are around 15€ maybe the .38s something more, at the shooting range……

wilecoyote,
Is that 15 eu including the VAT (or whatever they call it now)? If it includes tax that’s not too bad, 15 eu is about $16.25 US and cheap 9x19 ammo is between $12 and $14 a box (50) around here plus 6.5 % sales tax.

[charlie b]

Or closer to 10% for some of us. :)