Primer Cup Foray

[elmacgyver0]

I thought I had better post my own thread instead of hi-jacking Mustangs.
Anyway, I have been collecting all the odds and ends to make my own primers or quite a while now.
I purchased the 22 Reloader primer cup makers from a special at Powder Valley.
I had a 1/2-ton arbor press, so I thought I would try that, instead of buying a new 1-ton unit.
I found out my galvanized steel I had left over from building an aluminum melting foundry was too thin, don't know for sure, but it is .010 not .017 as called for.
I did have a bunch of copper that measures .017, not .019 as I erroneously posted in Mustang's thread.
The copper seems to make nice cups and works better when lubricated with a bit of Ballistol.
I was going to synthesize some Lead Hypophosphite this morning but found that my stirrer-hot plate is only good for one vessel at a time.
I will resume the quest into chemicals when I receive my second stirrer-hot plate unit.
Anyone interested in one of these units check out Vevor, after you register the SH-2 unit is only $49.00, I saw them as much as $233.00 at Lab Equipment websites.
I have always enjoyed chemistry and look forward to making the primer compound.
Back to the primer cups.
I have no idea how the copper cups will work, but they are easy to make.
I did not have to buy the copper as I already had a lot left over from a still project, I did years ago.
Here are some pictures of my setup.322471322472322473

[firefly1957]

Thank you I am doing some work just for percussion caps now .

[MUSTANG]

Is the copper pure copper or a Gilding Metal Mixture (Copper and Zink). I believe somewhere I ran across a reference that some primer cups are made from a 70/30 Gilding Metal Mixture.

If your cups are pure copper; it will be interesting to see where (or if) the pressure level occurs that begins to flatten the Primer Cups.

[frkelly74]

I wonder if you can re use the cups from fired brass.

[MUSTANG]

I wonder if you can re use the cups from fired brass.

Yes. That is what is being done by numerous members on this site. The primer is removed, the primer anvil removed and saved, the firing pin dimple hammered or pressed out, most will resize the cup, new primer chemical placed, ad the anvil placed and pressed over the primer mixture.

elmacgyver0 is making new primer cups. This requires reuse of a Primer Anvil; but avoids the firing pin dimple and potentially other issues with metal fatigue of the cup some express concern over. With a newly formed primer cup there is no confusion downstream on a round with a dimple impression where a visual inspection would cause a question in ones mind if the primer was reloaded and is OK - or the round is one where the primer failed to fire because of a legacy slight dimple remaining on remanufacturing primers with previously fired primers.

[elmacgyver0]

I will be most likely using these in low pressure loads.
It is what I have at present, everything else I have I believe is too thin.
I hope they work ok, they sure are pretty.
I will also be using reclaimed primer cups as I also bought the NOE dies.
I also removed the dimples with a punch and hammer, have not tried the dies yet.
It will be some time before all this gets tested out as I am waiting for my second hot plate stirrer.
I believe it is pure copper, but it is kind of springy, not like soft copper tubing or electrical wire.

[elmacgyver0]

I tried some of my "too thin .010" galvanized steel to make cups, it worked very well, made nice cups, whether suitable or not for primers, I do not know.
All I have tried so far is for large primers.

[elmacgyver0]

I dug out some brass sheet I had left over from a 500 watt 432 MHz linear amplifier I built years ago for fast scan ATV, it measured a perfect .017.
I cut a strip and lubricated it with a little Ballistol and ran it thru the die, made nice little primer cups, but I could see a bit of stress at the fold over point.
I believe the punch inside the die (wasp waisted part) is too sharp on the edges and would benefit from slightly rounding the edge.

[Idz]

Annealing the brass may cure the stress fractures. I know annealing technique and material is the key to making cartridge cases.

[elmacgyver0]

Annealing the brass may cure the stress fractures. I know annealing technique and material is the key to making cartridge cases.

I will most likely try that; I annealed some hard copper tubing once to make experimental cartridge cases for a couple old Gahendra rifles I have.
I have also thought about cutting up some scrap brass to make the cups, might not be thick enough though.

[elmacgyver0]

It does help to anneal the brass, but I still hope the copper works because I have a good supply of it.

[elmacgyver0]

I just got done reconditioning some large rifle primer cups.
Now I need to make up some primer compound.
I have the lead hypophosphite ready, synthesized up a batch last weekend.
The lab work is interesting and kind of fun, but it does require patience.

[elmacgyver0]

I tested putting an anvil in my copper cups, seems too tight and the steel ones I made were too loose, so I have Papa Bear and Baby Bear, seems the missing Bear is Mama.
So, my tests will be with reconditioned cups.
I mixed up a small batch of EPH 26 and loaded some into three reconditioned cup and covered the compound with a paper disc, then seated an anvil.
They look real pretty, I activated with an alcohol/water mix and when dry will load into .45-70 cases and test fire in a trapdoor.

[P Flados]

You do not need the paper disc in any of the EPH-2x mixes.

I did EPH-25 for a while, but now do an EPH-20 style mix.

If you are inserting dry EPH-2x primers into your brass, wear hearing protection. I insert my EPH-20 primers into my brass before drying. I had too many surprise detonations when I was letting them dry first.

Good luck with your 45-70s.

[MUSTANG]

I tested putting an anvil in my copper cups, seems too tight and the steel ones I made were too loose, so I have Papa Bear and Baby Bear, seems the missing Bear is Mama.
So, my tests will be with reconditioned cups.
I mixed up a small batch of EPH 26 and loaded some into three reconditioned cup and covered the compound with a paper disc, then seated an anvil.
They look real pretty, I activated with an alcohol/water mix and when dry will load into .45-70 cases and test fire in a trapdoor.

elmacgyver0 :


While depriving; are you sorting your remanufactured Primer cups by color (Brass and Chrome Plated) and source (i.e. Brass Head stamps)? I sort into individual pill bottles by color, and by primer type (SP/LP/SR/LR) while depriving. I have found that there are different sized anvils in some salvaged spent primers, additionally - more differences between USofA produced and imported head stamped brass. Good improvement by simply sorting into the 8 different pill bottles; and I am now sidelining foreign made primers identified by Headstamp on brass for further sorting if needed in future.

Anyone notice the "OLD STYLE" anvils coming out with some of the spent Foreign Primers? By that I mean all the USofA I have found use the 3 legged anvil; while some of the foreign primers are using the 2 legged primer anvils of the WW-II and older era. These older style primer anvils do not sit well in the USofA primer cups that use a 3 legged anvil style.

323020

pics of 2 legged and 3 legged anvils and primer cups.

[Bmi48219]

Every time I read a primer-reloading thread I am inspired.
I generally view cartridge reloading as a statement of independence in the face of government overreach. Primer reloading is at another level and about as patriotically independent as a man can get.
John Paul Jones would be proud.

[Martin Luber]

ELEY hand primes their 22 shells in little craters in case one of the huts goes up.

As the Swiss manuals say, “ Careful handling serves to avoid anger”

[elmacgyver0]

I am new to this as I had plenty of commercial primers, but see my LR primers drying up, so I thought I would try my hand at reloading them.
I have been collecting the materials and equipment for years in anticipation of eventually doing this.
I recently started keeping the different sized primers separate and see I need to go further down this road as far as manufacturer.
As far as making primer cups, I have ruled out the copper, they are easy to make, but just too soft as I am sure aluminum is as well.
I just need to experiment to get the best thickness.
I primed three .45-70 Hornady cases with the three primers I reloaded last night, no mishaps.
I did put a folded-up shop rap over the case mouths and wore earmuffs, just in case.
They are now in my dehydrator for a couple hours just in case they need a little more drying.
I only did three because I have never made the compound before, and I want to make sure it is viable before wasting a bunch of time making dud primers.

[elmacgyver0]

I just tested a primer loaded into a Hornady .45-70 case made with a reconditioned primer.
I reconditioned the primer with the NOE sizing tool with a Lee App press.
I used a primer recipe from Aardvark reloading called EPH 26, a modification of the EPH 20 formula.
I did the test in a Trapdoor with about a 23-inch barrel.
I did this in my garage with the lights off.
The primer fired fine with about a six-inch flame with sparks from the end of the barrel.
I only did the one as it seemed pretty loud, and I didn't want to get in dutch with the wife who was sleeping in the other end of the house.
I quickly sprinted back to the basement with my carbine and planned to disavow any knowledge of the deed in case she asked.

[elmacgyver0]

It seems these formulas always have very exact down to the half grain or so quantities.
The scale I used measures to the grain but that's it.
I have more accurate scales but decided to dedicate this one to my "chemistry set".
The EPH 26 formula I used goes as follows.
11.6 grains LH (lead hypophosphite)
11.6 grains LN (lead nitrate)
7.5 grains NC (nitrocellulose)
2.5 grains Glass
1.7 grains aluminum

Well, I just rounded everything up to an even number.
This formula is non-corrosive, very energetic, throws lots of sparks and flame, at this point, unless some unforeseen circumstance occurs, this will be what I stick with.
Lots of other formulas out there that are probably just as good, but why argue with success.

[P Flados]

It seems these formulas always have very exact down to the half grain or so quantities.
The scale I used measures to the grain but that's it.
I have more accurate scales but decided to dedicate this one to my "chemistry set".
The EPH 26 formula I used goes as follows.
11.6 grains LH (lead hypophosphite)
11.6 grains LN (lead nitrate)
7.5 grains NC (nitrocellulose)
2.5 grains Glass
1.7 grains aluminum

Well, I just rounded everything up to an even number.
This formula is non-corrosive, very energetic, throws lots of sparks and flame, at this point, unless some unforeseen circumstance occurs, this will be what I stick with.
Lots of other formulas out there that are probably just as good, but why argue with success.


The exact quantities of the components were established based on making 100 SPP/SRP per batch. The concept was make just enough dry mix for one batch and use it all up at once.

I note you are using the "hot" version of EPH-26 with more NC and less Ground Glass (GG) than the original.

Early on, I just mixed up a little more than I needed and saved the left over dry mix in a white plastic pill bottle. For all of the EPH-2x mixes, they a real close to 1/3 LN, 1/3 LH and then 1/3 of "everything else". Having LN and LH the same is important. People have experimented with different blends of the 1/3 of the "other stuff" - GG, NC & AL. I eventually settled on a very simple EPH-20 type mix where I started with 10 LN, 10 LH, 5 NC, 5 GG. I then made it even easier on myself and pre-mixed a bottle of 50% NC, 50% GG. Now when I get ready to assemble some final mix, all three items are just kept to equal weights. For an EPH-26 type mix you could "pre-mix" say 75 gr NC, 25 gr GG and 17 gr AL and then do your final mix with the same approach.

For 100 LPP, I have information that it will take 55 gr total. Lets say LRP takes 60 gr per hundred. Mixing up 60 gr (enough for 100) would just be 20 LN, 20 LH and 20 of the pre-mix "other stuff".

And by the way, your test fire sequence sounds very familiar. Even the planned "I know nothing, I know nothing at all" part.

On another note, one of the least "nailed down" aspects of EPH-2x is your NC powder. I am curious as to what powder and process are you using.

[2TM101]

I'm waiting for someone to make and sell the empty primers and anvils. They are just little pieces of copper that could be made and sent anywhere without restriction. Having to salvage anvils out of used primers is what is keeping me from getting into this, I've been making percussion caps for years now that are very bit as good as the commercial product at this point. But the anvil part is still keeping me from trying to do this.

If only there was a good way to reload berdan primed cases. Those are basically just percussion caps as the anvil is part of the case. But there is no good way to deprime them that I know of. Come up with that and Berdan primed cases will go from the ones nobody wants to the ones everybody asks for.

[elmacgyver0]

I'm waiting for someone to make and sell the empty primers and anvils. They are just little pieces of copper that could be made and sent anywhere without restriction. Having to salvage anvils out of used primers is what is keeping me from getting into this, I've been making percussion caps for years now that are very bit as good as the commercial product at this point. But the anvil part is still keeping me from trying to do this.

If only there was a good way to reload berdan primed cases. Those are basically just percussion caps as the anvil is part of the case. But there is no good way to deprime them that I know of. Come up with that and Berdan primed cases will go from the ones nobody wants to the ones everybody asks for.

You can make the cups yourself with tools you can buy. The anvils at this point not so much. There are tools available to recondition the used primer cups.
Most of the anvils come out in the cleaning process and it is pretty easy to separate the rest, I do a lot of this while watching TV, of course you need your full attention when working with the chemicals.
It is not for everybody, you need to judge that for yourself.

Powder:
I used Bullseye and ground it with powdered glass in a ceramic mortar and pestle.
I bought the powdered glass online, didn't want to mess with grinding up lightbulbs.
I think the real secret is to get all the components ground as fine as possible.
I do the lead stuff in a glass mortar like dish I got at a yard sale.
I used a plastic swizzle stick for the pestle, although I have a glass pestle coming from Ebay.
I do the final mixing in the glass mortar and when I'm satisfied with that, I add the German Dark Aluminum powder and mix well.
A lot like cooking, just follow the recipe.

[WRideout]

I'm waiting for someone to make and sell the empty primers and anvils. They are just little pieces of copper that could be made and sent anywhere without restriction. Having to salvage anvils out of used primers is what is keeping me from getting into this, I've been making percussion caps for years now that are very bit as good as the commercial product at this point. But the anvil part is still keeping me from trying to do this.

If only there was a good way to reload berdan primed cases. Those are basically just percussion caps as the anvil is part of the case. But there is no good way to deprime them that I know of. Come up with that and Berdan primed cases will go from the ones nobody wants to the ones everybody asks for.

When I was fooling around with trying to convert 7.5 Swiss cases to Boxer primed, I decapped a quantity just using a case filled with water, and a tight-fitting steel punch through the case mouth. Works fine. There are hook-type primer removal tools around, but I have not used one.

Wayne

[elmacgyver0]

When I was fooling around with trying to convert 7.5 Swiss cases to Boxer primed, I decapped a quantity just using a case filled with water, and a tight-fitting steel punch through the case mouth. Works fine. There are hook-type primer removal tools around, but I have not used one.

Wayne

I've only been able to spray water all over the place and never budge the primer.

[MUSTANG]

Most of the Berdan that I have seen have heavy Primer Crimping or multiple Stab Crimps on primer pocket area. This has resulted in me not being able to use the Hydro Primer Removal (Water in case and tight fitting punch) successfully. I have probably 1200 to 1500 burden primed .308 I have picked up at ranges over the years. Would love to be able to extract the Berdan Primers and remanufacture the Berdan Primers - but No Bueno so far. I am successful in remanufacturing Boxer Primers (SP/SR/LP/LR) and having success with a couple of primer formulas.

Making new Boxer Primer cups from 0.017" galvanized steel available from Home Depot is good to go. Some day when I get that Round Tu-It; will explore having someone make me small and large anvil punches to make Primer anvils.

[elmacgyver0]

I took my sheet metal/wire gauge with me to Menards and picked up a 28-gauge galvanized panel that is perfect for making the cups.
I ordered a parallel jaw plier on Ebay to seat the anvils, so far for me using a plier works best for anvil seating. It seems everything I bought for making primers came with no instructions, I have a setup that was 3D printed I got on Etsy, but have not got it to work yet, perhaps the instructions are buried on MeWe somewhere.
I will be exploring getting those Berdan primers out (intact) in the near future.

[Bmi48219]

….Some day when I get that Round Tu-It; will explore having someone make me small and large anvil punches to make Primer anvils.

In the late sixties dad bought a 7.5 Swiss rifle. Back then you could buy berdan primers. He had limited success using hydraulic pressure to deprime the cases. A machinist made him a couple dual pin depriming punches that worked ok. I recall him loading 7.5 Swiss ammo that was every bit as brutal to fire as the surplus stuff we found at gun shows.

[elmacgyver0]

The primer cups I have been making seem soft although the thickness seems right as they hold the anvils securely.
I may try to temper them by putting them in a metal cup, heating and then quenching in water, don't know what it will do to the galvanizing.

[HamGunner]

I had a couple hundred good brass cased Berdan primed 7.62x54R that had the larger sized Berdan primer and they deprimed ok with my homemade hydraulic tool. I also had plenty of the smaller primed cases as well, but they were not as easy to deprime, plus most of them were copper washed steel and I just did not want to mess with them anyway.

I reprimed the large primer cups after punching out the dent with a hammer and punch. I filled and tamped down my version of the EPH-2X primer compound and just before the compound sealer has dried, I also place one Legend brand toy cap gun cap disc on top of the priming compound and tamp down again. I suppose the paper cap gun cap is not necessary, but I feel much better about the compound staying in place with some sort of paper on top, although any thin piece of paper would likely work as well. I don't think a tiny bit of Armstrong mixture will corrode things up much.

I use my Arbor Press to prime the already resized cases by placing a flat rod inside the case for the press to bare on the inside case base, since I do not have a priming tool the correct size for the large Berdan primer cups. This has worked well.

I also knock the firing pin dent out of large center-fire primed cups and use the Arbor Press to replace the anvils on my reprimed large pistol and large rifle primer cups. This also has worked out well, but I have not attempted the smaller primer cups. I am sure it would be just as easily done, but my 72 year old fingers just do not handle such small detailed work.

I had been saving up spent primers for years, but unfortunately I had just been dumping any brand and any size into the same coffee can. That requires a lot of measuring with a caliper to separate the large rifle from the large pistol cups, but it has worked out okay with just a bit more tedious time involved. I now have been segregating and saving my spent primers by size at least.

I hope this is only an experimental process and primers once again become plentiful and not so costly. One can at least hope so.

[elmacgyver0]

I had a couple hundred good brass cased Berdan primed 7.62x54R that had the larger sized Berdan primer and they deprimed ok with my homemade hydraulic tool. I also had plenty of the smaller primed cases as well, but they were not as easy to deprime, plus most of them were copper washed steel and I just did not want to mess with them anyway.

I reprimed the large primer cups after punching out the dent with a hammer and punch. I filled and tamped down my version of the EPH-2X primer compound and just before the compound sealer has dried, I also place one Legend brand toy cap gun cap disc on top of the priming compound and tamp down again. I suppose the paper cap gun cap is not necessary, but I feel much better about the compound staying in place with some sort of paper on top, although any thin piece of paper would likely work as well. I don't think a tiny bit of Armstrong mixture will corrode things up much.

I use my Arbor Press to prime the already resized cases by placing a flat rod inside the case for the press to bare on the inside case base, since I do not have a priming tool the correct size for the large Berdan primer cups. This has worked well.

I also knock the firing pin dent out of large center-fire primed cups and use the Arbor Press to replace the anvils on my reprimed large pistol and large rifle primer cups. This also has worked out well, but I have not attempted the smaller primer cups. I am sure it would be just as easily done, but my 72 year old fingers just do not handle such small detailed work.

I had been saving up spent primers for years, but unfortunately I had just been dumping any brand and any size into the same coffee can. That requires a lot of measuring with a caliper to separate the large rifle from the large pistol cups, but it has worked out okay with just a bit more tedious time involved. I now have been segregating and saving my spent primers by size at least.

I hope this is only an experimental process and primers once again become plentiful and not so costly. One can at least hope so.

I would not use the toy caps; they are pure poison to your barrel and not needed.
I think primer may be more available, but I doubt if the price will drop much.

[P Flados]

I filled and tamped down my version of the EPH-2X primer compound and just before the compound sealer has dried, I also place one Legend brand toy cap gun cap disc on top of the priming compound and tamp down again. I suppose the paper cap gun cap is not necessary, but I feel much better about the compound staying in place with some sort of paper on top, although any thin piece of paper would likely work as well. I don't think a tiny bit of Armstrong mixture will corrode things up much.

After activating, EPH-2x mixes undergo a chemical reaction and the result is a hard pellet. It is kind of like wetting cement and then letting it cure. Testing showed that paper discs on top of EPH-2x reduced performance. All regular EPH-2x users that I know of skip the disc.

Because the "cured" EPH-2x pellet is hard and brittle, I would also recommend inserting your Berdan EPH-2x primers into cases before it cures.