Why neck sizing was popular

[Wolfdog91]

First five minutes pretty dang interesting from a historical perspective, next two hours should be good . Always wonder why neck sizing was the " accurate thing to do" because the usual explanations never seems to sit right to me, would usually be something about " that's what this competition guys do! Stuff like that never feels like an answer to me, because then it's " ok well why do they do it exactly?
Anyhow


https://youtu.be/ycBrD50AL7Y?si=RgcPZhnXaA4fdqBJ

[Tripplebeards]

I just watch a video from Eric Cortina that says to stop neck sizing. I’m sure it had its place with competition single shot shooters at one point a time. I’m a hunter and not a long range bench competition shooter so I never went down that rabbit hole. The farthest I got was a handheld Forrester neck turning tool. I see no difference in accuracy whether I use it or not. The biggest thing I was worried about was taking brass off my case neck and weakening it.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Neck sizing has it's place in reloading for cartridges fired in chambers with out-of-spec headspace. Most commonly encountered, .303 British and .30-40 Krag, but applies to any out-of-spec chamber where the cartridge brass stretches when fired. If full length resized back to factory specs the brass will stretch again on the next firing, and eventually (sooner than later with some cases) you'll experience cracks around the base of the cartridge and eventually complete head separation. Neck sizing only squeezes the neck back to specs where it will firmly hold the new bullet, but leaves the rest of the case below the neck in its fired dimensions and a perfect fit for the poor headspace situation, thus extending the life of the brass. It's kind of a tailor made situation for individual rifles, as often neck sized only reloads won't fit in another chamber made for that cartridge.

DG

[cwtebay]

This is an interesting post to me. I watched Eric C's post and began the head scratching.

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[castmiester]

camming over FL then just necking there after.... some guys don't load and shoot as much as others. Some just to hunt, others for accuracy. Now days price of brass makes me shoulder bump.

[Hannibal]

It's a solution to a mismatch between a sizing die and a chamber to put it simply. Which will eventually create another problem.

If you understand how to set a sizing die to match your chamber then it's not going to help.

If you don't, then you need to research the subject.

[Fitz]

Hannibal you hit it on the head , once you learn to adjust your die for the firearm being loaded for neck sizing or fl sizing is not a concern for me , reloading for many wildcats will teach you how to just bump the shoulder for reliable and accurate shooting ammo. The video was geared toward competition shooters with unlimited fund building rifles for one purpose , a game i do not have the funds to enter but for shooting the rifle that has become our new property NECk sizing or shoulder bumping stilll plays a large part in accuracy and how long your brass will last.

James

[Wolfdog91]

Anyone happen to watch the first five min of the video I posted...I'm just curious

[Wolfdog91]

I gotta say shoulder bumping isn't hard at all. Just getting tone of those Hornady head space comparators and anvils. I always just fire form. Some brass , take that measurement subtract 3 thousands and keep adjusting my die down till I hit my mark. Usually take less then 5 min and maybe three pieces of brass tops

[BK7saum]

It's a solution to a mismatch between a sizing die and a chamber to put it simply. Which will eventually create another problem.

If you understand how to set a sizing die to match your chamber then it's not going to help.



If you don't, then you need to research the subject.

I guess I don't understand this statement.

[castmiester]

It's a solution to a mismatch between a sizing die and a chamber to put it simply. Which will eventually create another problem.

If you understand how to set a sizing die to match your chamber then it's not going to help.

If you don't, then you need to research the subject.

If you have a custom chamber without custom dies is a problem but fire forming and shoulder bump will solve this.

[Wolfdog91]

I guess I don't understand this statement.

Say your brass fire forms to you chamber and measures say 1.758" base to shoulder. And you, just setting. Your die per manufacturer instructions are res sizing it to 1.749" . You've pushed your should back what , 10 thousand? In reality all you need it's 1-3 thousands from the fire form for function. By pushing it back all your doing is over working or brass adding more space which some will argue makes more problems dealing with bullet jump gasses ect.

[M-Tecs]

Say your brass fire forms to you chamber and measures say 1.758" base to shoulder. And you, just setting. Your die per manufacturer instructions are res sizing it to 1.749" . You've pushed your should back what , 10 thousand? In reality all you need it's 1-3 thousands from the fire form for function. By pushing it back all your doing is over working or brass adding more space which some will argue makes more problems dealing with bullet jump gasses ect.

That's simply because a lot of reloaders knowledge of setting dies ends with the basic recommendations from the die manufacturer. Reality is that these basic methods are meant to produce ammo that fits in all SAAMI spec or larger chambers. Others opt to use methods that gives more optimum results.

To date I've taught 60 or 70 people to reload or how to resolve issues they are having. My first question is what their reloading knowledge is. Second question is how they set the FL die. If they say screw it down till it hits the shell holder we start of ground zero because they are one step above clueless.

[BK7saum]

If you have a custom chamber without custom dies is a problem but fire forming and shoulder bump will solve this.

I totally understand sizing, neck sizing, shoulder bump and bump shoulders for bolt gun brass 0
001-0.002" upon sizing.

The statement in bold seems like it should have been "don't" understand instead of how it was written. Read the bold statement, just doesn't make sense to me as written.

[BK7saum]

Say your brass fire forms to you chamber and measures say 1.758" base to shoulder. And you, just setting. Your die per manufacturer instructions are res sizing it to 1.749" . You've pushed your should back what , 10 thousand? In reality all you need it's 1-3 thousands from the fire form for function. By pushing it back all your doing is over working or brass adding more space which some will argue makes more problems dealing with bullet jump gasses ect.

I have 35+ years reloading and FL size my brass using a comparator to establish a 0.001-0.002" shoulder bump.

The exact statement that I bolded doesn't make sense to me as written, that is all I was referring to.

[BK7saum]

There subject being implied is what was confusing, talking about neck sizing not helping, I guess. I was reading it from the perspective of FL sizing with minimal shoulder bump. It just seemed backward to me.

[Hannibal]

So I'm going to have to disagree with some of the posts above. If you understand how to use a comparator such as the model Hornady sells currently, and if you set your sizing die to set the case datum line to case head measurement to read .001" less than the measurement of a fired case then you will never have an issue with chambering a resized case in THIS PARTICULAR RIFLE. If you try to chamber a resized case using this method in another rifle it may or may not work.

This method is used to extend the life span/number of reloadings you can get from brass used in THIS rifle chamber. Neck sizing only is a completely different situation. I personally do not like Neck sizing only because eventually you will run into interference issues.

There are plenty of good articles all over the internet that explain it. Likewise, there are plenty of postings by misinformed individuals that will confuse the snot out of you. Education is vital and can not be overemphasized. Educate yourself and understand EXACTLY what is occurring if you choose to engage in minimal resizing or neck sizing.

[M-Tecs]

Educate yourself and understand EXACTLY what is occurring if you choose to engage in minimal resizing or neck sizing.

That is true of all step and levels of reloading. Life becomes much simpler when you understand the "why" you do it that way. As stated by other posters shoulder bump is only one component of the advantages and disadvantage of neck sizing only.

[jsizemore]

By using a FL die to shoulder bump you still reduce the size of the case body.

When Eric Cortina says he full length resizes he's actually using a shoulder bump die and a bushing to size his brass, there is no resizing of the case body.

If your real careful with using a FL sizer to shoulder bump, just before you get to the point that the die shoulder contacts the case shoulder, you'll find that your headspace has grown because when the case body gets squeezed the brass has to go somewhere and that's up.

[castmiester]

you really don't need a comparator once you have the shoulder where you need it for YOUR rifle and brand lot brass. If you anneal correctly, size enough... which .001 isn't enough, I personally do .004, and let a stripped bolt fall on it's own. Yes neck sizing only will cause interference eventually which requires a shoulder bump.

[Shopdog]

OK,competitive shooters at the levels presented in this video,shoot how many factory barrels?

So give up neck sizing to hold the case firmly against the bolt face,historically,in an age where cases were so cheap we'd run them till they got tight then go get more..... to where competitive shooters now,overwhelmingly utilize bullet jam,basically accomplishing the same thing?

Another kinda misconception; which wears out first? A sizing die or a gilt edge competition barrel? Which then begs the question...which should come first,the die or the barrel's chamber?

Next,consider as industry standards(not one off,I know a guy stuff).... which process,die making or barrel chambering utilizes the more sophisticated equipment?

How many cast rifle bullets does EC shoot in a week? Year? (The notion of reduced loads vs full power loads effect on case equilibrium)

To the OP,should I go on?

[MostlyLeverGuns]

Adjusting/using the full length sizing die to get that .001-.002 shoulder setback is the key. You can simply take fired brass and start with the sizing die backed off and slowly turn in until the case shoulder is bumped and cases chamber easily. I use Redding Competitive shell holders, +.002-+.010 and size using them. I have several rifles in .308, .243, and .300 Savage, I keep the brass separate for each rifle with a note which plus shell holder to use, +.006 is common but one does +.008, another +.004. At one time I did have a sizing die adjusted to each rifle. I have measured shoulder lengths but Redding Competition shell holders simplify things and work for rimmed, rimless, and belted cases. For mild loads, neck sizing works for a while but then full length sizing may be needed.

[Larry Gibson]

Anyone happen to watch the first five min of the video I posted...I'm just curious

Yes, I watched considerably more than that. I found it quite interesting.

Whether or not neck sizing is better than full length or even shoulder bumping is one of those topics that has no set rule or answer for every rifle. Note in the first 5 minutes Mr. Borden explains how he modified commercial bolts to fit precisely in their actions (Borden Bumps) explaining how that helped accuracy. He then went on to manufacture his own bolts and actions with that level of precision built in. Also consider the tight tolerances of BR rifle chambers and the custom sizers made specifically for them compared to the +/- SAAMI and milspec spec chambers, the bolts made to fit any action they were made for. A lot of difference there and what applies to the one doesn't necessarily apply to the other.

As Der Gebirgsjager pointed out, there are numerous reasons to neck size with many of the rifles we use. This is especially the case with most of the cast bullet loads we use. The pressures developed by many, if not most of the cast bullet loads we use are such that the expansion of the case is so minimal it will take many firings before the case begins to bind the bolt/action/barrel when the bolt is closed.

Even with higher pressure loaded cartridges used in most commercial/milsurp actions neck sizing most often gives better accuracy. That is because the fire formed case tends to align the bolt with the concentricity of the chamber bore. A full length sized or factory case in standard factory chambers, especially with bolts having a plunger ejector, will not lay concentric to the axis of the chamber/bore. Also, many rifles and ammunition combinations simply do not have the accuracy capability to really tell the difference between NS'd or FL sized cartridges.

However, many rifles can tell the difference. If you seek the best accuracy and/or long case life then you might want to try, at least, FL sizing with the die properly adjusted as has been mentioned, or with fire formed neck sized. If you spent many dollars for a BR actioned custom rifle then you may want to pay close attention to what Mr. Borden said. If not, then find out what works best in your own rifle.

I only neck sized my cast bullet match loads for my M70 target 308W rifle, My M39 Finn 7.62x57R used for CBA matches and my HV 30-60 XCB. I also just neck sized all of my cast bullet loads for every other rifle/cartridges that i shoot. Full length sizing provides no advantage to accuracy and often shortens case life. Now, if I had a super expensive, super slick BR rifle I would probably use a custom bump die.

Here's a 300 yard F Class target I shot last month. There are 46 shots there, 6 sighters and 40 for record. Aggregate score was 400 with 35 Xs. Rifle was a M700 with an 8" twist Kreiger barrel [built by MBT aka goodsteel on this forum] chambered in 223 Rem. Cases were match prepped PMCs that were 3 times fired and neck sized with a Lee Target Loader. The load was 24.5 gr Varget, Federal 205 match primers and the Hornady 73 gr ELD Match bullet. The bolt still closes smoothly on the fire formed cases. When it becomes stiff to close I will partial FL resize the cases to a slight crush fit. From past experience that will be after 7 or 8 firings with the neck sized cases. Full length sized loads can give a 400 score but usually it's a 198 or 199 and the X count is never as high.

322466

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[Der Gebirgsjager]

Wowwww! Great shooting! :shock:

DG

[Tripplebeards]

Yep, I never messed with any of the stuff over the decades and just lowered my die down a quarter inch past flush went full length sizing until I started loading for the 35 Remington a few years back and had issues with fail to fires. I bought a comparator gauge and started bumping my shoulders back 2000’s of an inch. I had some primer, sitting proud, and I don’t know if that happened from the brass shifting or if I just didn’t seat them flush or a below flush. I had a few that would fire on the second try, and some that wouldn’t fire at all. So between setting my shoulders back, just barely, so there was no shifting of the case when firing and making sure my primers were seated below flush with a nice firm squeeze from my handheld primer my fail to fires went away.

[slim1836]

I just wish I could remember what Larry has forgotten. Nice shooting.

Slim

[white eagle]

I do it to keep the shoulder of the chamber on my fired brass for a better fit than complete resizing of the case back to Sami specs
makes no difference to me the supposed loss of brass that would be inconsequential and minuscule
when the cases get to hard to chamber then I resize and push the shoulder
just my way is all

[rbuck351]

I use a fl die and adjust it to leave about .020 of the neck unsized. This leaves a bit of the neck close to chamber neck size to center the front of the case and leaves the base of the case closer to chamber size. I don't know how much this helps (haven't tested this) but it makes me feel better. I don't shoot competition so my accuracy requirements are in the 1"area. Good enough for my hunting requirements.

Neck sizing helps with loose chambers. Certainly not needed with custom built BR rifles and dies.

I did watch about 10 minutes of the video but I can't afford the type of action necessary to prevent neck sizing from helping which is why many folks neck size.

[M-Tecs]

By using a FL die to shoulder bump you still reduce the size of the case body.

When Eric Cortina says he full length resizes he's actually using a shoulder bump die and a bushing to size his brass, there is no resizing of the case body.

If your real careful with using a FL sizer to shoulder bump, just before you get to the point that the die shoulder contacts the case shoulder, you'll find that your headspace has grown because when the case body gets squeezed the brass has to go somewhere and that's up.

Nope


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vYzXJGKyxt0

[tommag]

Anyone happen to watch the first five min of the video I posted...I'm just curious

At first I was only reading the replies, but you motivated me to watch it. I'm glad you did! I've understood the borden bumps for a long time, but the effect of the firing pin sloppiness is fascinating! It never would've occurred to me that the firing pin impact moving an imperceptible amount would have such a that much (or any) effect on poi.
I used to neck size in an effort to keep the cartridge centered in the chamber and bump the shoulder as needed after several loadings. I found it helped accuracy quite a bit.
I usually don't have the patience to watch videos, but I'm going to watch the whole thing as I find it fascinating. Thank you for posting it!

[Hick]

Neck sizing has it's place in reloading for cartridges fired in chambers with out-of-spec headspace. Most commonly encountered, .303 British and .30-40 Krag, but applies to any out-of-spec chamber where the cartridge brass stretches when fired. If full length resized back to factory specs the brass will stretch again on the next firing, and eventually (sooner than later with some cases) you'll experience cracks around the base of the cartridge and eventually complete head separation. Neck sizing only squeezes the neck back to specs where it will firmly hold the new bullet, but leaves the rest of the case below the neck in its fired dimensions and a perfect fit for the poor headspace situation, thus extending the life of the brass. It's kind of a tailor made situation for individual rifles, as often neck sized only reloads won't fit in another chamber made for that cartridge.

DG

Neck sizing works equally well even if the chamber is in spec, as long as the brass is dedicated to that one firearm. Less working of the brass extends the life. I have 600 30-30 cases for my Win 94 that I only neck size and they have all been reloaded more than 20 times-- so far.

[cwtebay]

I believe that this is a "horses for courses" argument.
I have a 35/30 that I ONLY neck size for. After roughly 15 loadings I find no issues.
My 300 PRC? Issues in less than 3 firings.

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[Hick]

I believe that this is a "horses for courses" argument.
I have a 35/30 that I ONLY neck size for. After roughly 15 loadings I find no issues.
My 300 PRC? Issues in less than 3 firings.

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk

Yep. I had a friend (since died at a ripe old age) who had a bolt action 30-06 and prided himself on making the ultimate hot loads. He only loaded his cases a few times-- after that the primers fell out and the heads would not fit in the shell holder. No joke-- he gave me the brass and the cases would not fit in my shell holders either!

[Hannibal]

Yep. I had a friend (since died at a ripe old age) who had a bolt action 30-06 and prided himself on making the ultimate hot loads. He only loaded his cases a few times-- after that the primers fell out and the heads would not fit in the shell holder. No joke-- he gave me the brass and the cases would not fit in my shell holders either!

That's just someone flirting with disaster.

Case head expansion is a serious overpressure issue. I feel sorry for whoever now possesses that action because it will likely fail catastrophically in the future due to abuse.

Some people shouldn't reload but still do.

[popper]

Only comment I can add is that precision shooters don't use Lee dies. Nor cheap brass. Neck turn a few cases and see how bad neck thickness is. The first part of the vid, he stresses total alignment of bolt head, chamber and bore.

[dverna]

Taking a load from .5” to .3” takes a lot more effort than working up an effective hunting load.

1 MOA from my .223 and 1.5 MOA for the .308 is good enough for what I need to do. $5000+ rifles and .5 MOA are nice, but have no practical relevance in my world. I will not miss a deer. If I miss a ground squirrel at 250 yards, it is not the end of the world.

[rbuck351]

Well said dverna. +1

[jsizemore]

Nope


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vYzXJGKyxt0

I stand corrected. Do you figure he uses an off the shelf FL sizing die?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htvk1UYOXm8

[fg-machine]

I've observed that there's a whole lot of , if your not doing it my way your wrong type of people in the re-loading world .

I've a different view , if your doing things safely and it works for you it's right for you .

Like a lot of others here I got started casting / reloading long before the internet was a thing .
I started casting with the Lyman handbook as my sole guide , I read threw it until I understood it and following it I has success right off the bat .
Re-loading was pretty much the same thing , following the manuals things worked out to my good .
Learned a lot back then at the club by asking others what they do and why , funny thing about that was most of us did things in a similar fashion because we learned the basics the same way and any improvements we learned came about in a likewise similar fashion threw simple logic .
It wasn't till the internet that I learned every I do is wrong and I should be having all sorts of issues .

I've also never been a competitive shooter , I doubt I would enjoy it .

[dverna]

I've observed that there's a whole lot of , if your not doing it my way your wrong type of people in the re-loading world .

I've a different view , if your doing things safely and it works for you it's right for you .

Like a lot of others here I got started casting / reloading long before the internet was a thing .
I started casting with the Lyman handbook as my sole guide , I read threw it until I understood it and following it I has success right off the bat .
Re-loading was pretty much the same thing , following the manuals things worked out to my good .
Learned a lot back then at the club by asking others what they do and why , funny thing about that was most of us did things in a similar fashion because we learned the basics the same way and any improvements we learned came about in a likewise similar fashion threw simple logic .
It wasn't till the internet that I learned every I do is wrong and I should be having all sorts of issues .

I've also never been a competitive shooter , I doubt I would enjoy it .

Good enough is good enough. I used to chase sub MOA loads until I realized they had no practical benefit for my needs. It was a way to learn, a way to "prove myself", and a way to earn "bragging rights". It is what drives some reloaders and there is nothing wrong with it.

I am now in "no man's land". I do not need .5 MOA deer loads but will not accept 2 MOA. I have saved a lot of time and resources by being "realistic"...as I define it. If my goal was to consistently kill deer at over 400 yards, that would cause me to rethink things.

IMO too many new shooters are drinking the Kool-Aid and chasing what gun rags are spewing. The 6.5 CreedLess is a perfect example of this foolishness. A guy at deer camp was going to buy one for deer hunting even though he already had a .270...just stupid.

[WILCO]

I like neck sizing dedicated brass for a specific rifle.
Full length sized brass is fine for mix and match arms.
End of the day, I was never a voo doo shooter anyways. :)

[charlie b]

As dverna said, consider your application (and skill level) and adjust accordingly. If you just hunt or shoot for fun this is all overkill. Keep in mind that shooting less than MOA (jacketed) every time is also a higher skill level. Less than 1/2MOA is not easily accomplished.

Set the dies correctly, FL or neck. Keep in mind above comments. Most size dies you buy off the shelf are made to SAAMI standards. Your chamber is as well. You may have a max size chamber and/or min size die. Those instances are where neck sizing can be better.

FWIW, I only neck size my cases for cast loads.

But, if you want to go 'down the rabbit hole' then it can be frustrating.

Many competitors use custom dies matched to their rifle. It is 'relatively' inexpensive if that is your thing. Just send several fired cases to the die maker. An alternative is a FL die with neck bushings. Then you need a way to find which bushing is correct for your rifle and bullet.

Find the article on the Houston Warehouse shooting tests. Bunch of benchrest folks. The key figure did not resize his cases. Custom chamber reamer and brass fit precisely. Note that he chose the barrel length for his favorite load :)

Last thing is to consider that many of these competitors consider a barrel as a wear item, usually replacing one at least every season. Not a cheap sport to be at the top of the ladder.

[Rapier]

In my opinion, all custom builds should be to the intended use. Same goes for reloading. Extreame example as been to both ends of the spectrum, African DG rifles are not built like a BR rifle, unless you want to get stomped into a mud pie. A 0 tolerance bench rest build is fine for a range where you have tools at hand, because you will need them sooner than later. At FT Stockton, in a World Championship, had a dust devil go down the firing line, those 0 tolerance gun, shooters had a bit of a problem. :-)
The actual reloading process follows the intended use. But the brass preparation prior to loading should be the same.
My match brass has been reloaded well over 20 times and it gets minimal sizing or expansion.

[waksupi]

In my opinion, all custom builds should be to the intended use. Same goes for reloading. Extreame example as been to both ends of the spectrum, African DG rifles are not built like a BR rifle, unless you want to get stomped into a mud pie. A 0 tolerance bench rest build is fine for a range where you have tools at hand, because you will need them sooner than later. At FT Stockton, in a World Championship, had a dust devil go down the firing line, those 0 tolerance gun, shooters had a bit of a problem. :-)
The actual reloading process follows the intended use. But the brass preparation prior to loading should be the same.
My match brass has been reloaded well over 20 times and it gets minimal sizing or expansion.

Absolutely. A match chamber should NEVER be cut into a field rifle, especially for dangerous game.

[gwpercle]

If you ever owned a Military Surplus 303 British Enfield circa WWII manufacture ...
the chamber tolerances got really sloppy towards the end of production .
They were churning out rifles to fight a war and they needed them to function when wet , muddy and dirty ... lots of rifles oversized chambers were sold after WWII .
And firing a case in those oversized chambers lead to a lot of Re-Sizing and wearing out of brass in short order . Neck sizing those same cases got you some extra case life . I still have my 303 No. 4 Mk I , full length and neck sizing dies !
Add some annealing to those cases and you can get a decent case life .
Gary