How Good is Good Enough?

[TXTad]

Even though I've been casting for a long time on the calendar, I actually haven't done all that much of it. I'm still learning how to get good results from my various molds, aluminum, brass, and iron. So far I've only ever cast with wheelweights. I think I get pretty good results, though I still have room for improvement.

One thing I keep forgetting to ask here, and this is me finally remembering to do so, is how critical is it for the tops of the lube grooves to be perfect? Some times I reject half of my bullets because one edge is just a little bit rounded. The bases are good, and there are no wrinkles, but sometimes I just can't get everything to come together perfectly and there is a slight but noticeable roundness, usually only on the front band, and usually only on one side of the mold. I simply reject any like this but always wonder if I'm being a bit too picky.

I'm not talking about big problems like bad bases, wrinkles, or hardly formed grooves, just a very slight problem on a small portion.

[jsizemore]

If you add 1-2% tin that will probably go away.

[TXTad]

If you add 1-2% tin that will probably go away.

That is next on my things to try. I hope @Springfield still has pewter to sell when I get back into things again before too long.

[charlie b]

Depends on how accurate you want to be.

If you are chasing sub-MOA at longer ranges you are probably on the right track. Or if you want bench rest competition size groups at 100yd.

The longer the range and higher the vel the more difference it will make.

But, for plinking at 100yd or so you can stand to have some small defects. I used to keep the 'rejects' just for that reason. Especially .30 cal subsonic loads. I could still get less than 2" groups with them. Then cost of primers went up so I don't do much 'plinking'.

[Winger Ed.]

Clip on wheel weights usually do great. Even mixing them 1/2 & with pure Lead.

For better fill out & all, I crank the heat up until the boolits start to show a little frosting.
Then back off the heat until it just or almost stops.

[Minerat]

I don't shoot a pistol well enough to tell the difference with my rounded edges and minor flaws in the lube groove areas or boolit noses. If they will hit a 6" plate at 25 yards I'm happy.

On rifles I'm a little more picky but on both I want sharp bases, unless using a gas check. I use cast for rifle practice and the accuracy is only of passing interest. I only hunt elk with the rifles or long range vermin so j words are used for hunting loads and sighting in. The exception to this rule is for my BPTR SS .45-90. Then I'm really particular and will cull most unless I want some for case forming then I'll accept some wrinkles or rounded drive bands but not bases.

[Recycled bullet]

Hey get your mold hotter and recheck for improved casting fill out. And as mentioned above, adding tin will help lots too.

[Mk42gunner]

Paper targets do not lie. Not even if they like you.

Try some of your best results against some of your rejects. If there is no difference in group size, no need to be as picky.

Robert

[ascast]

I think you need to ask yourself what is good enough? Are you shooting pistol/rifle plinking with the grandkids? 25 feet or 1,000 yards? Are they shooting OK or are you missing the mark and wondering why? Above solutions are correct. Adding tin has a limit governed by your wallet. The more tin, the better they cast, but at $20-30 a pound... Some bullets cast harder ( difficult) than others. ie the Lyman 457121PH is a 45-70 Loverin style that is about all driving bands. It needs to be hot IMO. The 439186 for 43 Spanish is about impossible to cast poorly. IMO try a little more heat

[35 Rem]

I keep meaning to set aside my rejects such as you described with slightly rounded bands on a place or two to shoot groups against the perfect bullets. I've yet to get around to actually doing it though. :) It's so easy to just throw them back in the pot and remelt. I doubt it will make any measurable difference for handgun shooting. At least with my meager handgun ability it won't. For a lever action rifle to deer hunt it's bound to make a difference but probably would still give you good enough accuracy to kill deer out beyond 100 yards.

[Bass Ackward]

One thing I keep forgetting to ask here, and this is me finally remembering to do so, is how critical is it for the tops of the lube grooves to be perfect?

Load one chamber with a heavy jacket bullet, the next with a wadcutter, throw in a powder coat, then a light lead slug with no lube, and then a midrange load, you will find that you can still shoot a one whole group if the target is close enough. The further out you want to shoot well, the more things you (and the gun) have to do “correctly”. Experimentation stops when satisfaction sets in. So in the end, it only matters if it does to you.

[Baltimoreed]

Smoke your moulds really good too. I don’t worry too much about how mine look as most of my shooting is minute of sass marshal but if you're not happy with a boolit put it back in the pot. Or use culls for close speed shooting practice and the pretty ones for the match shooting.

[gwpercle]

For handguns ... mix those clip on wheel weights 50-50 with soft scrap lead and to 9 lbs of 50-50 alloy add 1 lb of Lineotype , printers type or any high tin solder or pewter . A little extra tin helps them fill out nicely .
Wheel weights are a bit on the hard size for handgun boolits .
For years all I used was free unlimited COWW but my man retired and I had to stretch my WW supply ... the addition of lead and Tin makes for a better casting and more accurate boolit .
Gary

[dverna]

I have not cast as much as others. I also do not use cast bullets for serious work.

I tried cast rifle bullets and cannot achieve performance that is acceptable to my standards. A handful of guys can do it but for me it is not worth the effort.

I can cast .38 caliber pistol bullets that will group 3” at 50 yards without culling. That is good enough for me.

Your expectations are what matter.

If I am not getting good fill out, I raise the melt temperature, but I do not use any cheap crap I can get for alloy. There is no reason to accept poor fill out. If raising the temperature does not get there, add tin.

Commercial cast bullets are produced by the 10’s of millions. You should be casting bullets as good or better.

[Recycled bullet]

I have not cast as much as others. I also do not use cast bullets for serious work.

I tried cast rifle bullets and cannot achieve performance that is acceptable to my standards. A handful of guys can do it but for me it is not worth the effort.

I can cast .38 caliber pistol bullets that will group 3” at 50 yards without culling. That is good enough for me.

Your expectations are what matter.

If I am not getting good fill out, I raise the melt temperature, but I do not use any cheap crap I can get for alloy. There is no reason to accept poor fill out. If raising the temperature does not get there, add tin.

Commercial cast bullets are produced by the 10’s of millions. You should be casting bullets as good or better.3" at 50 yards is very very very good! Please, can you tell what molds, gun and technique you are using?

My point of view is showing a 6-in group at 50 yards and it has taken me years to get to this point.

[Willie T]

Even though I've been casting for a long time on the calendar, I actually haven't done all that much of it. I'm still learning how to get good results from my various molds, aluminum, brass, and iron. So far I've only ever cast with wheelweights. I think I get pretty good results, though I still have room for improvement.

One thing I keep forgetting to ask here, and this is me finally remembering to do so, is how critical is it for the tops of the lube grooves to be perfect? Some times I reject half of my bullets because one edge is just a little bit rounded. The bases are good, and there are no wrinkles, but sometimes I just can't get everything to come together perfectly and there is a slight but noticeable roundness, usually only on the front band, and usually only on one side of the mold. I simply reject any like this but always wonder if I'm being a bit too picky.

I'm not talking about big problems like bad bases, wrinkles, or hardly formed grooves, just a very slight problem on a small portion.

It depends on where you set the bar. Casters are their own quality control. I started casting to shoot for less money while putting a son through college. I didn’t cull many of the bullets I cast. I was tickled to death to be making my own bullets for less $. One day I was casting some .45 bullets out of wheel weights when I stumbled right into the middle of the sweet spot and stayed there till I emptied a 20 pound bottom pour pot. That took some of the shine off the bullets I had previously cast. I spent some time and re-melted a good many bullets trying to figure out how to find and work from that sweet spot.
As others have already posted: More heat (turn up your pot or quicken your casting tempo) or a little tin (1.5%-2% added to your wheel weights) will give you better fill out at lower temperature. Good luck and enjoy the hobby.

Willie

[Bazoo]

I will let slightly rounded edges go most of the time. But I am not into longer ranges with a handgun or rifle. I can still get 1.5” at 75 yards with my 30-30 and do about 1.5 at 25 yards with a handgun, benched of course. I can’t normally shoot better so ky works for me.

[Bigslug]

Well, it technically IS an out-of-round / out-of-balance bullet, but if you're just rolling empty soup cans inside of 50 yards, it probably won't matter much.

I'm assuming we're talking handguns? If so, segregate your borderline duds from your good ones, load them otherwise equally, and see how they do. For good measure, throw in some factory FMJ for comparison. There's a spot on the graph for quality of ammo and another for ability of shooter. If you find that you can't exploit any difference, there's little sense in sweating the difference.

But your answer probably lies in some combination of more tin or more heat. Improving the casting technique eliminates - or at least drastically reduces - the need for the question.

[TXTad]

Hey get your mold hotter and recheck for improved casting fill out. And as mentioned above, adding tin will help lots too.

This is why I think I should add the hotplate.

[Recycled bullet]

This is why I think I should add the hotplate. Get it and let us know how it works! I've been thinking about getting one.

What are you using to melt and pour the molten lead? I ladle cast out of a 1 quart saucepan placed over a turkey fryer. I literally put my mold into the flames to heat soak the mold blocks prior to and periodically during casting bullets.

[TXTad]

Depends on how accurate you want to be.

If you are chasing sub-MOA at longer ranges you are probably on the right track. Or if you want bench rest competition size groups at 100yd.

The longer the range and higher the vel the more difference it will make.

But, for plinking at 100yd or so you can stand to have some small defects. I used to keep the 'rejects' just for that reason. Especially .30 cal subsonic loads. I could still get less than 2" groups with them. Then cost of primers went up so I don't do much 'plinking'.

I think 50 yards will be what I consider extreme range for my handgun loads, with maybe 80 to 100 yards for .357 and .44 through my lever actions. As per another suggestion here, I just need to compare results with "good" bullets and "rejects".

When I start loading for my .303 Uberti Stalking Rifle, I may be a little more picky, but I'll be looking for casual target shooting and deer accuracy out to an extreme of 200 yards.

[TXTad]

Get it and let us know how it works! I've been thinking about getting one.

What are you using to melt and pour the molten lead? I ladle cast out of a 1 quart saucepan placed over a turkey fryer. I literally put my mold into the flames to heat soak the mold blocks prior to and periodically during casting bullets.

I have a Lee production pot and a thermometer that I bought from Rotometals. I can keep the lead within a 20 degree range without much work, and about 10 degrees with just a bit of effort.

[dverna]

3" at 50 yards is very very very good! Please, can you tell what molds, gun and technique you are using?

My point of view is showing a 6-in group at 50 yards and it has taken me years to get to this point.

I “cheated”. First, a 10 cavity H&G #50 wadcutter…the best mold I ever owned. Second, a Clark target gun. Third, a Ransom rest…I cannot shoot iron sights that well. The load was the age old 2.7 gr of Bullseye. Lube was 50/50. Bullets sized and lubed in a Star at .358. And another “cheat”…Linotype alloy…nothing makes a better bullet than Linotype.

BTW, that was a 50 shot group. There were many 10 shot groups smaller than 3”.

To put things in perspective, the 10 ring at 50 yards is just under 3.4” IIRC. And that is shooting one handed. The 2023 winner of the Precision Pistol slow fire match scored 193x200. He did not miss that ten ring much.

[Bazoo]

I “cheated”. First, a 10 cavity H&G #50 wadcutter…the best mold I ever owned. Second, a Clark target gun. Third, a Ransom rest…I cannot shoot iron sights that well. The load was the age old 2.7 gr of Bullseye. Lube was 50/50. Bullets sized and lubed in a Star at .358. And another “cheat”…Linotype alloy…nothing makes a better bullet than Linotype.

BTW, that was a 50 shot group. There were many 10 shot groups smaller than 3”.

To put things in perspective, the 10 ring at 50 yards is just under 3.4” IIRC. And that is shooting one handed. The 2023 winner of the Precision Pistol slow fire match scored 193x200. He did not miss that ten ring much.

Pretty impressive, thank you for sharing.

[Bigslug]

This is why I think I should add the hotplate.

Yes. Absolutely. But the other answer here if the mold is still not quite "there" is to dunk the far corner of your mold into your pot for roughly a 5-count.

One of my indicators of happy mold temperature is the time it takes for the sprue to freeze. It varies mold to mold - I most commonly run brass molds. If the freeze time is somewhere around ten seconds, I'm usually getting decent bullets. If it takes much north of 15, the mold has gotten too hot.

Rate of pour is another "Goldilocks" issue. Too fast is easy - you can't control the overflow and are spilling everywhere. Too slow and your metal is starting to freeze before the cavity is full. You want the weight of your sprue pushing down into the cavity before the alloy starts to firm up

[Land Owner]

Pre-heat mold on a hot plate. Set mold bottom in liquid alloy - maybe 20 +/- seconds. Turn it over. Set the spru plate in liquid alloy. Then cast.

I use a bottom pour pot. Wrinkled boolits create rotational instability so I reject and recast mine thinking the spru plate, as a heat sink, is cooling the melt prior to mold line fill out. I found this in the Fryxell book, Chapter 8 - Idle Musings of a Greybeard Bullet Caster under the heading "Heating the Sprue Plate". This is not the heat of the melt, which might need to be a little hotter too.

[TXTad]

Pre-heat mold on a hot plate. Set mold bottom in liquid alloy - maybe 20 +/- seconds. Turn it over. Set the spru plate in liquid alloy. Then cast.

I use a bottom pour pot. Wrinkled boolits create rotational instability so I reject and recast mine thinking the spru plate, as a heat sink, is cooling the melt prior to mold line fill out. I found this in the Fryxell book, Chapter 8 - Idle Musings of a Greybeard Bullet Caster under the heading "Heating the Sprue Plate". This is not the heat of the melt, which might need to be a little hotter too.

I'll try this. I think the top of the mold is cooler than the bottom. I've dipped the bottom of the mold into the pot, but never the top. I'll give that a try next time.

[fordwannabe]

I do recommend the hot plate for pre heating your molds. I was NOT a believer until SWMBO (she who must be obeyed) found one at a junk shop for $10 and brought it home. I eventually had to replace that one(something about a fire hazard thingie) but they are available from amazon and WM for less than $20 and it has made a believer out of me. My issue is that I get the mold too hot and start getting really frosted bullets, if they are plinkers...so what gonna PC anyway. If they are "serious bullets" I keep an old sponge on my casting table that I wet with water and rest my mold bottom on it for a second or two and that keeps the temos down.

[Willie T]

Tad, keep sinking the corner of that mold down in the melt until the amount of alloy that hardens on the corner is less and also easily releases from the mold when you lightly tap the hinge bolt between the handles. Once the mold temperature gets there it will not take many cycles to start dropping good bullets. Someone should tell you that most new casters initially struggle to get their mold up to temperature and keep it there. I mostly do my own thing casting and shooting but there are a lot of knowledgeable posters on this forum that are generous with their experience. Enjoy the ride figuring it out. Although a good ways south of you, I’m a fellow Texan.
Willie T

[35 Rem]

I think 50 yards will be what I consider extreme range for my handgun loads, with maybe 80 to 100 yards for .357 and .44 through my lever actions. As per another suggestion here, I just need to compare results with "good" bullets and "rejects".

When I start loading for my .303 Uberti Stalking Rifle, I may be a little more picky, but I'll be looking for casual target shooting and deer accuracy out to an extreme of 200 yards.

I've drooled over the pictures of that Uberti Stalking Rifle quite a few times. Would LOVE to have one. :) Congratulations of getting one. Let us know how it shoots when you start working up loads for it.

[charlie b]

I think 50 yards will be what I consider extreme range for my handgun loads, with maybe 80 to 100 yards for .357 and .44 through my lever actions. As per another suggestion here, I just need to compare results with "good" bullets and "rejects".

When I start loading for my .303 Uberti Stalking Rifle, I may be a little more picky, but I'll be looking for casual target shooting and deer accuracy out to an extreme of 200 yards.

It's all about how you go about it. Took me a few hundred rounds to find out what pot temp was best for my alloy (Lyman #2). Then more experimenting to find the right temp for my mold and the tempo for casting, ie, how hot does the mold need to be.

This was a ladder test when I first got the mold.

322478

If you want to chase accuracy....

I also did a lot of comparisons when powder coating, like putting on a gas check before or after PC. One of the biggest things for longer range is weight sorting bullets. I sort them into 0.1gn batches. The 210gn bullets are 'bore riders' so I size the nose as well as the drive bands.

I also experimented with how much a flaw in the bullet changed the POI as well as powder coating laying them down or standing.

After a lot of testing I could get this sometimes, usually it is a 10" group at that range.

322479

BUT..............

My pistol bullets I just cast and shoot. I will make sure the edges of the base are nice and square. I don't weigh them, just size and shoot. The difference is the accuracy I expect. If I can keep them in a fist size group at 25yd I am happy.

Biggest things to control. Alloy. Pot temp. Mold temp (use a hot plate, they are cheap).

Experiment with each until the bullets come out good. Spend some time just casting a bunch, put them back in the pot and cast some more, until the temperatures and cast tempo you use gets you a good batch of bullets

[TXTad]

I've drooled over the pictures of that Uberti Stalking Rifle quite a few times. Would LOVE to have one. :) Congratulations of getting one. Let us know how it shoots when you start working up loads for it.

I'll do that. I've always had an odd interest in the .303 and .358, though I've never really pursed them. I have a couple of Enfields, but nothing in .358. The Uberti is my first nice rifle in either caliber. I was dumb and passed over a Ruger #1 in .303 a long time ago.

[Recycled bullet]

I “cheated”. First, a 10 cavity H&G #50 wadcutter…the best mold I ever owned. Second, a Clark target gun. Third, a Ransom rest…I cannot shoot iron sights that well. The load was the age old 2.7 gr of Bullseye. Lube was 50/50. Bullets sized and lubed in a Star at .358. And another “cheat”…Linotype alloy…nothing makes a better bullet than Linotype.

BTW, that was a 50 shot group. There were many 10 shot groups smaller than 3”.

To put things in perspective, the 10 ring at 50 yards is just under 3.4” IIRC. And that is shooting one handed. The 2023 winner of the Precision Pistol slow fire match scored 193x200. He did not miss that ten ring much.Awesome dverna!!!