.44 swage dies

[firefly1957]

I decided I want to carry my old Charter arms .44 Bulldog more and had it Ceracoated . One issue with the gun is so few good bullets for the 3" barrel velocities I decided I wanted to make my own in a full wadcutter design with a hollow point .
I use a Lee .309 170 grain mold as a core the first stage turns it into a wad cutter with a center dimple then a second pass with a T-40 bit in the punch puts in a deep 6 pointed hole . So far I am just loading the 177 grain finished bullets with 5.5 grains Red Dot and the bullets expand and often fragment in water . Firing one into a 55 gallon burn barrel that repels a 9mm pistol (all rounds so far) it passes through and goes 4" into sod/sand!

These dies are set up like the old Pacific dies for half jacket bullets . Sorry about focus I wish it was better the lead bullet shows the opening in the bullet front that core was not coated before swaging . The coating is Enamel Spray paint baked on and can be done either before or after swaging . This is my first try and the bullets are a bit over size at .435" so I size them to .430 separately . Later dies should be correct size I just goofed a bit on these . 322265

[Tatume]

My reason for swaging 44 Mag bullets was to get the most accuracy possible. Worked too! They were very effective on game.

Good luck on your continuing efforts.

[wilecoyote]

Firefly 57, about your .44 swage dies...
so far I use .40 cores stuffed inside .40SW spent cases, etc.,so sorry for my naivety: I'm a rookie and I would like to understand more regarding your progression from .309 lead onwards_
(I own a lathe, just in case :lol: ...)
next: can I use any enamel paint can, spray and then bake,
or I've misunderstood ?
thanks!

[firefly1957]

WILECOYOTE
My dies are based on the Pacific Swage-O-Matic design here is a link to .PDF :
https://www.castpics.net/subsite/Manuals/Swage-O-Matic.pdf

I have made a shorter ram and use a Lyman Orange crusher press rather then pacific "C" press. I turn the dies on a Harbor Freight mini lathe for my own use tolerances are hard to keep and there is some loss of materiel .
I am using a .309 cast bullet that is coated no jacket in this case the bullet is swaged to .435" (until I cut new die to get .430") this bullet has a centered dimple to help align the T-40 in the next step to form the hollow to aid expansion/fragmentation. The second step is a die that was drilled 1/4" then the T-40 bit was pressed in the 1/4" hole in a Large vise .
I have been coating bullets for a few years and am mostly using spray paint now I will post my notes below:

I have been using paint starting with powder coat for sometime now these are my notes on bullet coating so far i really like the process.
First method was to wet the powder with acetone and shake and roll bullets in it it until it stuck as solvent evaporated.
Next i used the electrostatic sprayer.
Last i used spray paint Kylon in my case.
All bullets should be degreased no matter how you do the coating some like dry tumbling i have not tried that.
When you bake a batch ALWAYS smash one bullet to make sure the coating does not flake off if it does bake longer and maybe hotter.
You will see a difference in the paint when it is "Cured" it becomes a thin plastic jacket around the bullet.
Some people have had great luck with liquid enamel paint they degreased the bullets and add them to a container with a bit of paint and roll and shake until coated.
NEVER bake in a oven food will be cooked in .
I like spray paint as i can paint them and then handle them , i usually use three coats while they stand on there bases.
Wet application requires handling and can be messy while electrostatic spraying needs to be done on the pan or jig you are baking them in as the powder will fall off if touched.
Do not let bullets touch while baking they will stick together.
Of the methods i use the three coats of spray paint is the thinnest and works best on rifle bullets with long noses. The other two methods are thick enough to engage the rifling of my 30-30 making chambering hard. I shoot the lee 309170 cast soft at 178 grains to an average speed of 2040 fps with good results . I have also shot cast and swaged .38 bullets in the 1700 fps range fromA a ten inch contender with good results. Most of my loads are common 38& 45 acp velocities no loads that have been properly "CURED" have leaded my bores.
I have also started loading higher levels for the 45-70 shooting powder painted or powder coated bullets to of 405 grains (417 as cast) at 1900 f/s and the Lee 330 grain mold cast soft (354 grains as cast) @ 2168 f/s both these loads shoot under 2" at 100 yards

IF You use the powder coat paint wet, I use acetone but other solvents that evaporate will work . I put about a teaspoon of powder in a can or jar add a bit of acetone to make the paint wet (runny wet) then wash the boolits in acetone or alcohol dump the liquid and add them to the can/jar with paint shake and roll until they are coated then remove the lid and roll until the paint sticks well. At that point i dump them out stand them on a baking tray on non stick aluminum foil or wax paper and bake them near or at 400 degrees for an hour . They are sized after they cool. Do not bake in oven that will be used for food again the foil or wax paper is used to keep paint from tray if temperatures go above 400 wax paper can darken and get brittle. I now use a silicone baking sheet some paint does stick to it but it works well for me the bullets are stood on points or bases not touching to bake .
Paint has very little mass bumps and blotches seem not to adversely affect accuracy i should test this further but have not yet as i get all the accuracy i need for now .
I have since swaged some coated .185 lead wire and made .224 bullets they did not lead the barrel at about 3000 f/s my dies burr the bullet base and accuracy was awful . I used the cup from a large rifle primer and swaged the core into it as a gas check to get rid of burr accuracy improved quite a bit.

[firefly1957]

Tatume Most of my .44 bullets is cast boolits it is a caliber that lends itself very well to them I do have a Ruger Carbine that I only shoot jacketed in because of the gas port . Because I do not shoot it a lot I have stuck to factory bullets . I have experiment with and made some very decent bullets with .40 S&W cases even annealing the cases well did not get me good expansion in water when fired from my 8 3/8" S&W (to the left).

I could not imagine getting any expansion in the 3" Bulldog barrel and .44 sp. Some would say it is not needed , that is another discussion for another place .

[Tatume]

Actually, I failed to mention that I swage cast bullets, without jackets. First I lube and size them, then when I run them through the swage die the incompressible lube preserves the lube and crimp grooves. Whether the improvement in accuracy is real or imagined, I enjoy hitting a swinging 6" plate at 100 yards shooting standing offhand with iron sights. The gun is a 10-1/2" Ruger SBH with a Bowen target sight. Hits are nearly 100% and I usually shoot 100 full-power 44 Mags in a session. And they are really nice looking bullets too!

[wilecoyote]

FIREFLY1957, thanks for your incredibly patient and thorough answers !
:drinks::drinks::drinks:

[Kai]

Since you are set up for it have you tried half jackets with a lead core?

[wilecoyote]

Since you are set up for it have you tried half jackets with a lead core?

...who is the question addressed to?

[Kai]

...who is the question addressed to?

this question is for the OP. Firefly1957

[wilecoyote]

this question is for the OP. Firefly1957

...:popcorn:

[firefly1957]

Kai I do indeed use half half jackets in .30 , 357 , & .45 caliber I have some 44 half jackets but just made the dies and have not used them yet .

[firefly1957]

Wilecoyote Your welcome .

Tatume I have done the same I experimented with 162 grain cast .38 bullets that were both gas checked and not and lubed and squeezed them to .452" . They shot quite well in my .45 acp at 1100 f/s sometimes the lube grooves were not straight but they still shot well .
I have also swaged the same Lee .309 coated bullet to .452" and the coating stayed put not peeling of getting ruined.

[deltaenterprizes]

Firefly,
I like your idea of making dies similar to the Swage o Magic dies, they are similar to the
Herters 9 Ton dies and are fairly easy to make.
I have made a set for 32 cal bullets and use a gas check on the base if I am going to use them in my 32 H&R magnum brass. I mainly do 32 S&W Long brass since I have more of it

[firefly1957]

Firefly,
I like your idea of making dies similar to the Swage o Magic dies, they are similar to the
Herters 9 Ton dies and are fairly easy to make.
I have made a set for 32 cal bullets and use a gas check on the base if I am going to use them in my 32 H&R magnum brass. I mainly do 32 S&W Long brass since I have more of it

I have seen people making .30 caliber bullet jackets from 5.7X28 cases they may do well for your .32 also?
I have yet to find one of those 5.7X 28 cases at my club and do not shoot the round so I can not even begin to try them out.

[SSG_Reloader]

Oh yeah 5.7 cases make great 308 projectiles but I'd guess there'd be an issue on the length vs weight needs for a 32 due to the base of brass turned projectile lengthens the projectile a good bit.

I bet 50 bmg primers would be amazing 32 jackets.

[Lead pot]

I have C&H .44 and .45 Keith semi wadcutter swage dies I used for pistol bulls eye matches and they shoot very good. They are made for the loading presses, I used them with the RCBS BIG MAX. They swage the 1/2 and 3/4 jacketed bullets in good shape.
Instead using cases for the .30 calibers why not just use copper tubing ? works very good.
I pretty much quit swaging because I can cast a bullet that shoots just as well as swaged with the fine custom moulds made now days. I should get rid of all that unused equipment.
These bullets were swaged using both Dave and Richard Corbins equipment.


322485

322481
You mentioned full wadcutter HP :D they shoot well in the .44-77 too :D

322486

[firefly1957]

Lead pot I have set a couple rifles and more pistol up and just shoot cast from them getting very high performance .

[deltaenterprizes]

I bet 50 bmg primers would be amazing 32 jackets.
I was thinking the same thing!

[rolltide999]

Richard Corbin has really nice set of 44 dies in stock at the moment.

[firefly1957]

I bet he does how much are they and what nose profiles?

[Dark Vaj]

It was a semi wad cutter type die and round nose, but someone has already bought it, could be made full lead, 3/4 jacketed or gas checks or 1/2 jacketed, it was 185 plus shipping

[rolltide999]

It was a semi wad cutter type die and round nose, but someone has already bought it, could be made full lead, 3/4 jacketed or gas checks or 1/2 jacketed, it was 185 plus shipping

Absolutely correct on all counts. Can also be made full jacket if you make a jacketed core (with 40SW brass and core seat punch from jacket maker die), run it through a dual diameter die (Lee sizing die custom made .009 under full diameter), then carefully adjust the lead bullet die to point form only to dual diameter mark on the jacketed core. Voila, a full jacket semi-wadcutter softpoint, or essentially a FMJ round nose semi-wadcutter. Lots of options with the addition of a few accessory dies.

$185 for 429 LB die set with SWC, RN, and HP punches
$105 for 40SW to 429 jacket maker with core seat punch
$50 for custom Lee sizing die set

But like Dark Vaj says, someone bought the 429 LB die that was in stock. You have to react fast if you see them on his site, or someone else will beat you to it.

[firefly1957]

I have made the parts to make .45 and .357 Bullets in reloading dies. I used .308 die for 45 and .223 Rem Die for .357 .

Back in the day people did complain of leading using the old Pacific half & 3/4 jacket swaged bullets I have found using coated cores cures that and the bullets do shoot well also.

[wilecoyote]

...I have made the parts to make... .357 Bullets in reloading dies.
...I used .223 Rem Die for .357 . .

... if you don’t mind perhaps could I learn something more about which/how done those parts ?
Thanks!

[firefly1957]

... if you don’t mind perhaps could I learn something more about which/how done those parts ?
Thanks!
I thought it would be easy to just find the articles on cast boolits about this but not so ? Or maybe my eyes and mind are not connected yet at 5 am!

Below is a list I copied from a post here to use this method you need a rod that fits your reloading press die and is snug in the proper size reloading die . "snugness" in die is not real critical with jacketed bullets as lead will not leak around the push rod from bullet base. then you need a ejector rod that pushed the bullet out . Depending on make of reloading die you may be using either the bullet seating or resizing die for a bottle neck cartridge your bullet will have the same taper and nose angle as a cartridge case . These are not high ballistic coefficient bullets but are pretty good pistol and close range rifle bullets . You seat the core in the bullet case or Jacket then push it into die stopping at the case neck ,then you tap the bullet out from the top after lowering reloading press ram . There is a good description in this forum if you can find it , I do not have any pictures to show or link for you .

When doing this LUBING IS A MUST! Otherwise you will never eject the bullet!

This is the list from another member:
something i think you all would find interesting. this is a project i've been working on for years, and have come to the conclusion that the information would be best served to be Shared with everyone.

reloading dies can be converted to point forming dies very easily. with this, you only have to replace the de-capping assembly with an ejection assembly then instead of using a case holder, you would use a bottom punch. here is a list of what caliber reloading dies that can be used to become bullet swage dies.

45 ACP (.451)
280 remington (.441) 17-30
270 winchester (.441) 17-30
25-06 remington (.441) 17-30
**** 243 winchester (.454) 20 sizing die.

44 mag (.430)
257 roberts (.429) 20-45 lee (.431)
244 remington (.429) 26 lee (.431)

40 SW (.400)
**** 220 swift (.402) 21 lee (.406)
224 weatherby

38 Spl & 357 (.357) lee (.356)
6x47mm (.357) 23 lee(.358)
**** 222 remington (.357) 23
223 remington (.354) 23 sizing die (.351) seat (.358)
17 remington (.356) 23 lee(.358)

9mm (.355) lee (.356)
6x47mm (.357) 23
222 remington (.357) 23b
**** ;l7 remington (.356) 23
223 remington (.354) 23

380 acp (.355) lee (.356)
6x47mm (.357) 23
222 remington (.357) 23
17 remington (.356) 23
223 remington (.354) 23

the information above should be read like this for example
to make a 45 acp swage die you could use
280 rem die, a 270 win die, 25-06 rem die or a 243 win die.
for a 44 mag you could use a 257 roberts, or a 244 rem die.
for a 40 sw you could use a 220 swift or a 224 weatherby. and so on.

In my case I used a .308 Winchester die then was given to me for .45 acp bullets . The bullets had no jacket were formed much like the .44 bullets I started this tread with , a deep imprint of a T-40 bit was used then the bullet was point formed by being pushed into the .308 die. They were pretty good in the .45 acp Being powder coated they did not need lube .

For .357 bullets I used a old .223 Hornady Pacific die these chrome plated dies always gave me trouble and I replaced them in use with Lee dies ! I did lap the dies out a bit to get the exact .357" needed . Bullets could be half jacketed , powder coated or annealed 9mm cases . In my case I could NEVER get 9mm cases to expand in .357 magnum pistol in water even with pressed shot core the jacket held without opening a bit . I did get good expansion from 357-44 B&D barrel because of higher velocity .

I found T-30 tool bit makes good hollow point for .38 caliber bullets same way it is formed in flat nosed bullet then point formed in .223 die. I have also ran these bullets into sizer to make them .351" for use in the old .351 Winchester Self Load with good results .

***** Note to use 9mm cases in .357 Magnum you must size the cases down I found it takes two steps to get it done on my RCBS rockchucker press *****

[Lead pot]

I thought Richard Corbin retired and closed his doors.

[wilecoyote]

I thought it would be easy to just find the articles on cast boolits about this but not so ? Or maybe my eyes and mind are not connected yet at 5 am!..............................*****

Firefly1957, I'm probably much more disconnected, and not just at 5am,
therefore thanks :drinks:for the huge amount of info !!!

[Dark Vaj]

I thought Richard Corbin retired and closed his doors. He in fact did, but he said retirement was boring, so he opted to do some making and selling dies out of boredom, he won't however make custom dies.

[rolltide999]

I heard Richard's his brother Dave Corbin has just retired and sold off his business, Corbin Swaging. They may or may not stay in business very long. We will see. The take home message is that if you want Corbin swaging dies of any kind (Dave or Richard) you better get them now. When those 2 are gone, there will not be a lot of options left for swaging dies. BT Sniper makes good dies, but swaging on reloading presses is awkward at best, and his prices have gone through the roof. Really nobody else left. The Corbins have really carried the industry for decades.

[Dark Vaj]

I heard Richard's his brother Dave Corbin has just retired and sold off his business, Corbin Swaging. They may or may not stay in business very long. We will see. The take home message is that if you want Corbin swaging dies of any kind (Dave or Richard) you better get them now. When those 2 are gone, there will not be a lot of options left for swaging dies. BT Sniper makes good dies, but swaging on reloading presses is awkward at best, and his prices have gone through the roof. Really nobody else left. The Corbins have really carried the industry for decades.
Not too mention they’re getting old as well…though I heard of Larry Blackmon of Bullet Swaging Supply. I haven’t personally buy any from him. But I heard he’s just as good.

[rolltide999]

Blackmon's press is much smaller, but the linkage goes all the way to the top of the press, like RCE press. This is a superior design to all others. I forgot to mention Larry. Like Dark Vaj, I have never ordered from him, but he seems to make good stuff.

Firefly1957, thanks for the great info.

Just an update, Richard Corbin at rceco.com has more 44 mag lead bullet dies (430) back in stock. Get'm while they're hot. He also has 308, 312 (32acp), 357, 361 (38 S&W), 452 (45acp), 458 (45-70), 500, and 510 lead bullet die sets in stock, along with several other sets for jacketed bullets in various calibers.

[rbuck351]

I have an old swag-o-matic and made a set of dies for my 7.62 x 25 using 50 cal primer cups as a half jacket and a Lyman 258420 as a core. They come out as an 85gr swc. They work well in my tok and a CZ52.

[rolltide999]

RCE has 44 dies back in stock. It is .430 with 4 different bullet profiles both solid and HP. it is a pretty nice set for $295. I bought the previous set but bought this new one to get the extra point profiles. I will probably just sell the old SWC, RN set at some point in time since I have 2 44 sets now.

Anyway, if you want a nice 44 set, they are in stock now (.430). He also has sets in stock for 32acp (.312), 38/357 (.357), 45acp (.452) and 500 S&W (.500) all with 4 point profiles both solid and HP, except the .452 which only has 2 point profiles (SWC and RN). These dies make bullets consistent to within 1/2 grain or less bullet to bullet (much more consistent than casting), and with powder coating they won't lead the barrel. They can all be made with gas checks, half jackets, 3/4 jackets, or with an extra step and extra sizing die - full jacket.

[Meatpuppet]

If you are swaging up lead bullets, I have had a lot of success powdercoating the projectiles first and then swaging them to final size and shape.

For instance, a 200gr - .401 mold intended for 10MM swages up nicely for 44 magnum. A 250gr - 430 mold for 44 Mag swages up to 45 Long Colt. The powdercoating is suprisingly strong and has no problem with the swaging. I can get away with using some really soft lead using powdercoat.

At first I was using traditional molds with lube grooves and they worked just fine. I am slowly replacing them with smooth cavity molds by Accurate Molds that are intended for powdercoating (Gotta order them when the wife is not looking). By using molds for smaller calibers and then bumping them up, I figure I can recoup some of the investment by selling the molds if I ever get tired of doing it.

I went down this route because my casting skills are pretty lame and I did not want to deal with lubing projectiles.