Need Advice with loading 44-40

[hwilliam01]

I recently bought a 44-40 SA pistol and some time later, a lever gun, both in 44-40. I bought some cartridges with some used brass and started loading it as if I had been loading 44 Special/44 Magnum (and a lot of other pistol cartridges. I new the 44-40 has a thin wall, so I have been careful not to crush the brass. After tumbling, I deprimed and sized the brass. I hen checked it in a "Cowboy Chamber Checker" and they all fell in and out nicely. I ordered some 200 grain cast bullets from Meister (which specifically says they were made for the 44-40). They are sized at 0.429, which is what my Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook says the bullets were sized at for the test loads.

Once I loaded the cartridges with powder and placed the bullet on top and seated to the crimp grove on the bullet, they looked great...just like I expected them to do. I am uing a Lee Turret press and brought the adjustment all the way up and applied the roll crimp to remove the belling for seating the Bullets. I then went to the range and a number of them would not fit either the revolver or the lever action. I checked them in the Cowboy Chamber Checker and they would not go in all the way. They would stop about 1/8 to 1/4 of from going all the way down.

I then checked the 100 or so that I had loaded and found that only 1/3 of them passed and the remainder failed the chamber check. Ok...so my thoughts were that the sizing die must not have been adjusted all the way down. I disassembeled them and resized them. They now all pass the chamber check with no bullet attached. So I started to reload the resized brass. Primed, put in powder, very lite flair, bullet in top and seated them to the grove line. Tried one with the seater removed to apply a roll crimp. I also tried a Lee factory crimp die, and one with no crimp and neither of the 3 passed the chamber check. What am I doing wrong? My thoughts are that the brass neck is the right size before putting the bullet in, but the bullet expands the case so that it can't go down enough. Thoughts? I need help from the brain trust here....Thanks in advance.

[35 Rem]

My 1st thought would be that you are crimping too much a causing the case to buckle just enough to not fit the chamber. But then I read your comment that a round with no crimp at all also fails to chamber and not sure what to say. I doubt a .429 bullet would be large enough to cause this although i usually hear 44-40 shooters using .427 in jacketed. Doesn't seem likely that .002 would cause interference.

[Bent Ramrod]

Relatively tiny differences in length in all the short hyphenated rifle-pistol calibers will cause a slight bulge to form in the case just below the crimp, if a roll crimp is attempted on a longer shell. The rest of them will crimp without problems. This with standard loading dies; the issue doesn’t come up when I use a tong tool like the Winchester.

I found that rather than endlessly monitoring and trimming cases, it was easier to get a Lee Factory Crimp die for these calibers. It crimps by squeezing the case mouth in at the crimp, rather than by pushing it down while rolling it over, like a roll crimp die does. Haven’t had a problem with chambering since I started using them.

In the meantime, another fix would be to make up the ammunition as usual, then take the decapping arrangement out of the FLS die (if there is one), screw the die incrementally into your press and partially re-resize one of the loaded rounds until it drops fully into your gauge. Then run the rest of the loaded rounds through at that setting. Generally it doesn’t need to be anywhere close to a full resize, just a minor bump 1/2 to 2/3rds of the way screwed in, and no sizing lube is needed. Of course, check all the rounds in your gauge so you’re sure they all will fit. An extra step and a nuisance, but it works.

[mehavey]

Check#1: Will a bullet pass through the cylinder and out the front w/o too much effort ? (pencil/eraser push)

[Tall]

When I buy 44 WCF bullets they are .427" OD. I had problems like you are having when I tried using the same bullets as I had used with 44 Special.

https://www.acmebullet.com/Bullets/44-40/44-40-200RNFP-S427

[gunther]

Once reloaded for a Ruger 38 40 Buckeye Special. Had the same problem. Turned out the commercial bullets wouldn't go easily through the throats. See post #4. After adjusting the seating depth a little deeper, they worked fine. In spite of undersized throats that thing shot like a rifle.

[Larry Gibson]

In my 44-40 revolver [Ruger Vaquero, old model] it has very tight throats. R-P, Winchester and older makes of cases with a .429 bullet seated will chamber perfectly. Starline and a couple other makes are very tight fit giving the same problem you have. Those cases simply have thicker necks. I use the thicker necked cases with a soft bullet cast of 40-1 alloy sized .428 and they then chamber fine. They bump up to fit the .429 throats.

You have 3 probable solutions;

Get thinner necked cases

Have the chambers reamed to a larger neck size

Use a smaller diameter bullet

[georgerkahn]

While I agree with all suggestions, I will add that I make it a habit of checking case length and trimming (needed quite often!) new brass so all is both to the SAAMI length and the same -- especially for revolver cartridge loading, where the round is crimped. Amazingly (to me) is the disparity in new brass case lengths I've noted.
geo

[Mr Peabody]

I've had 3 handguns in that chambering and they all needed to have the necks opened up for the use of .429 or .430 boolits. I'm surprised Mike Harvey didn't give the Italians a heads up on the issue.

[mehavey]

See https://thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6900428&postcount=14
No (bullet-size) issues at all w/ a "Taylor-Tuned" Uberti 44-40 revolver.

AGAIN for the OP: Can a .429 bullet pass through the cyllinder, or stop short?
If it stops short, how far short (from the cylinder face) ?

[BoBSavage]

I recently bought a 44-40 SA pistol and some time later, a lever gun, both in 44-40. I bought some cartridges with some used brass and started loading it as if I had been loading 44 Special/44 Magnum (and a lot of other pistol cartridges. I new the 44-40 has a thin wall, so I have been careful not to crush the brass. After tumbling, I deprimed and sized the brass. I hen checked it in a "Cowboy Chamber Checker" and they all fell in and out nicely. I ordered some 200 grain cast bullets from Meister (which specifically says they were made for the 44-40). They are sized at 0.429, which is what my Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook says the bullets were sized at for the test loads.

Once I loaded the cartridges with powder and placed the bullet on top and seated to the crimp grove on the bullet, they looked great...just like I expected them to do. I am uing a Lee Turret press and brought the adjustment all the way up and applied the roll crimp to remove the belling for seating the Bullets. I then went to the range and a number of them would not fit either the revolver or the lever action. I checked them in the Cowboy Chamber Checker and they would not go in all the way. They would stop about 1/8 to 1/4 of from going all the way down.

I then checked the 100 or so that I had loaded and found that only 1/3 of them passed and the remainder failed the chamber check. Ok...so my thoughts were that the sizing die must not have been adjusted all the way down. I disassembeled them and resized them. They now all pass the chamber check with no bullet attached. So I started to reload the resized brass. Primed, put in powder, very lite flair, bullet in top and seated them to the grove line. Tried one with the seater removed to apply a roll crimp. I also tried a Lee factory crimp die, and one with no crimp and neither of the 3 passed the chamber check. What am I doing wrong? My thoughts are that the brass neck is the right size before putting the bullet in, but the bullet expands the case so that it can't go down enough. Thoughts? I need help from the brain trust here....Thanks in advance.

PM sent

[Outpost75]

Redding Profile Crimp die worked better for me than the Lee FCD. Also check chamber neck diameter. Many newer guns have tight chamber necks which are .445-.446 and larger barrel groove diameters of .429-.430. You want .447-.448 chamber neck for adequate clearance with a .429-.430 bullet.

[mehavey]

AGAIN for the OP: Can a .429 bullet pass through the cylinder, or stop short?
If it stops short, how far short (from the cylinder face) ?

(before anything else)

[Hick]

I resize my 44-40 rounds with the sizing die (without the stem) after I seat the bullet. This sizes down the shank of the bullet but leaves the portion ahead of the case at 0.429. It turns them into something that is essentially a heeled bullet like the old 38's. Using this method you can even use 0.429 bullets in 44 Magnum cases (which have thicker brass in the neck region).

[Outpost75]

I resize my 44-40 rounds with the sizing die (without the stem) after I seat the bullet. This sizes down the shank of the bullet but leaves the portion ahead of the case at 0.429. It turns them into something that is essentially a heeled bullet like the old 38's. Using this method you can even use 0.429 bullets in 44 Magnum cases (which have thicker brass in the neck region).

Accurate 43-200QL is a heeled bullet for .44-40 rifles or revolvers having tight chamber necks, but large barrel groove diameter. Also large lube groove adequate for black powder use.

322163

[Hick]

Accurate 43-200QL is a heeled bullet for .44-40 rifles or revolvers having tight chamber necks, but large barrel groove diameter. Also large lube groove adequate for black powder use.

Neat-- I hadn't heard of that bullet

[Outpost75]

Neat-- I hadn't heard of that bullet

Tom also has a 150-grain .358/.375 version loading 3 grains of Bullseye to reduce jump of .38 Long Colt or 3.5 grains in .38 Special firing in .357 chambers and a 260- grain .454/.476 for .455 MkII brass loading 3.5 grains of Bullseye to reduce jump when fired in longer .455 MkI and .455 Colt/Eley chambers. Also for using .45 Schofield brass in .45 Colt chambers with 4.5 grains of Bullseye.

322164322165

[Texas by God]

I wish that I had known any of this back when I had a 44-40 Vaquero!
I had to size my bullets down to .427” to fit in the cylinder and they shot horribly.
So I sold it…..


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Outpost75]

I wish that I had known any of this back when I had a 44-40 Vaquero!
I had to size my bullets down to .427” to fit in the cylinder and they shot horribly.
So I sold it…..
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I had John Taylor rechamber my Vaquero cylinder, producing .447" chamber necks and .4305 cylinder throats which is wonderfully accurate with .429 bullets.

[Kai]

Your issue has already been addressed. Some cases, the longer one, are getting over crimped. Instead of spending money on a bandaid (lee crimp die) trim all your cases to the same length. Good reloading practices go a long way.

[mehavey]

Some cases, the longer one, are getting over crimped.Unfortunately, we don't know that yet.

The OP has not yet been able to tell us whether the bare bullet itself
is short-stopping in the cylinder mouth, and if so, by how much.

[Tall]

The problem is many folks try to load 44 Special bullets that are sized .430".

https://www.mattsbullets.com/240-Grain-Semi-Wadcutter-430_p_175.html

[mehavey]

.430 bullets will (may) be OK
https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?464230-Need-Advice-with-loading-44-40&p=5672545&viewfull=1#post5672545

But we don't yet know where the OP's problem actually lies...
1. Bullet diameter itself ?
2. Bullet + Case (uncrimped) ?
3. Bullet + Case crimped too early in seating?

Until we know #1 - #3 (in order) we have too many variables

[BoBSavage]

Cartridge dimensions vs Chamber dimensions....kind of like trying to install a Chevy big block in a little Honda 50 motorcycle....ain't really gonna work.

Cartridge Dimensions vs Case dimensions
1. More than likely the case neck/mouth area measurement of the case is exceeding the case neck/mouth area measurements of the chamber cut. (the bullet diameter, plus the case neck thickness), or any deformation of the case from crimping, has exceeded the chamber dimensions due to the over sized brass combined with the oversized bullets.
2. The go, no-go gauge may have different measurements than the firearm chamber.
3. The original 44-40 chamber is cut to accept .4255" JSP and .427" lead bullets with very thin necked Winchester brass. Loading with larger diameter bullets and thicker brass will cause issues pending the chamber cut dimensions.
4. The thin brass was not designed to be roll crimped, and doing so can create a slight "bulge" just below the crimp when used with deep groove lead bullets. This bulge will exceed chamber dimensions. Same when used in rifles, but the extra leverage when cycling with the lever...most do not realize they just forced the bullet (swaged) into the chamber. This is why the factory used/uses a bullet cannular just below the base of the bullet. It aids in keeping the bullet seated do to the lack of a good crimp and or neck retention. The Lee Factory Crimp Die may or may not create a bulge, pending the amount of crimp forced into the crimp groove.

Just the Tip Of The Iceberg
"44-40 bullets" are not 44-40 bullets just because "they work"....or may work, at least part of the time. The true 44-40 bullet is made up of three points;
1. Diameter - Officially .4255" JSP (Winchester) with a .4125" crimp groove and .427" Lead (Winchester) with no crimp groove.
2. Profile - a constant "curve" (O'give) from the crimp to the meplat. No exposed foreword driving band.
3. Length - JSP (.05925ish), Lead (.06105ish)

Over the years, manufactures deviated from, but not limited to, measurements and it has been chaos ever since.

[Tall]

The Lee Factory Crimp Die may or may not create a bulge, pending the amount of crimp forced into the crimp groove.


This has never been the case for me - perhaps the Lee directions are not being read? The Lee FCD is a very different thing from the Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die. Only the FCD is available for the 44 WCF round.

This image shows the Lee 38 WCF FCD being used to make a crimp. The way this one works is identical to the 44 WCF FCD. No way to make a bulge in the case.

[Kai]

Unfortunately, we don't know that yet.

The OP has not yet been able to tell us whether the bare bullet itself
is short-stopping in the cylinder mouth, and if so, by how much.

True we don't know details about the bullet but, if the bullet was the issue then all loaded rounds would be a problem to load. The OP stated only a portion of the rounds fail to chamber. Then again a lot of times the guy posting says he did this or checked that but really has no clue so who really knows. But hey, I got my ceiling painted and the wife's happy!

[Kai]

AGAIN for the OP: Can a .429 bullet pass through the cylinder, or stop short?
If it stops short, how far short (from the cylinder face) ?

(before anything else)

If bullet diameter was an issue don't you think all rounds, not just 1/3, would fail to chamber or to not fit in the gage?

[mehavey]

Depends on the minor variances, literally on the tangent angle, of the ogive curve.

Sure would like to rule it out though... and even if short :sad: it would give us info for
max OAL and/or where to look down the list of other causes.

[BoBSavage]

This has never been the case for me - perhaps the Lee directions are not being read? The Lee FCD is a very different thing from the Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die. Only the FCD is available for the 44 WCF round.

This image shows the Lee 38 WCF FCD being used to make a crimp. The way this one works is identical to the 44 WCF FCD. No way to make a bulge in the case.

Are you saying that the Lee 44-40 bullet seating die does not roll crimp?

[Texas by God]

My standard Lee 44-40 seating die roll crimps if set to.
I barely crimp my 44-40 rounds because my gun is a single shot rifle.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Tall]

I barely crimp my 44-40 rounds because my gun is a single shot rifle.


I use the Lee FCD with every caliber I reload for. It allows the bullet seating die to be used only to adjust COAL. The FCD is used only to effect the crimp. Unlike the Carbide Factory Crimp Die which is entirely different.

[BoBSavage]

I use the Lee FCD with every caliber I reload for. It allows the bullet seating die to be used only to adjust COAL. The FCD is used only to effect the crimp. Unlike the Carbide Factory Crimp Die which is entirely different.

Tall, you are confusing me.....

1. Lee does not offer a Carbide die for the 44-40...am I wrong? I think it has to do with the slight bottle neck.
2. Lee offers a normal steel seating die for the 44-40 that tapers (first setting) and roll crimps (second setting)...I believe that is in the "Instructions" you keep referring too. I am beginning to think that folks do read instructions, but they may not can interpret or understand them correctly....I raise my hand in guilt!
3. Lee offers the "LFC" for the 44-40 to be used on both bullets with or without a crimp groove.

[Outpost75]

The problem is many folks try to load 44 Special bullets that are sized .430".

https://www.mattsbullets.com/240-Grain-Semi-Wadcutter-430_p_175.html

Some modern .44-40s, to include the Ruger revolvers and Marlin rifles are assembled with barrels having the same. bore and groove diameters as their .44 Magnum barrels and require . 429-.430 bullets to shoot accurately. The Pietta and Uberti revolvers and Rossi rifles vary depending upon their date of manufacture.

It is necessary to slug your barrel, pin gage cylinder throats and cast and measure chamber neck diameter to determine correct bullet size.

Cylinder throat diameters of my 1908 Colt Single Action and 1920 New Service are both .430" with barrel groove diameters of .427. Factory jacketed softpoint ammo with .425" bullets shoots poorly. Hornady .430" diameter 200 XTPs with 18.5 grains of 4227 cut cloverleafs at 25 yards.

[Tall]

Tall, you are confusing me.....

1. Lee does not offer a Carbide die for the 44-40...am I wrong? I think it has to do with the slight bottle neck.
2. Lee offers a normal steel seating die for the 44-40 that tapers (first setting) and roll crimps (second setting)...I believe that is in the "Instructions" you keep referring too. I am beginning to think that folks do read instructions, but they may not can interpret or understand them correctly....I raise my hand in guilt!
3. Lee offers the "LFC" for the 44-40 to be used on both bullets with or without a crimp groove.

Pretty sure I said Lee does not make a 44 WCF Carbide Factory Crimp Die. Lee does sell a Factory Crimp Die in 44 WCF. Not sure what you mean by "LFC".

[hwilliam01]

Guys...thank you very much for ll the comments...took me a while to digest all of them and then cogitate on what to try and what made sense. i apologize for being MIA for a few days...got a lot going on here. Son who is 30 and severely handicapped a non verbal quadraplegic, and I have been on Daddy duty while Mama takes a respite for some fo her hobbies (quilting - which to me is like beong pecked to death by a duck, but she feels the same about mine). Moms 87 and in a nursing home with dimensia and having imaginary (but real to her) crisis. Called me the other day crying her eyes out very upset..told her I could help, she said not with this one. I told her to give me a shot....she says "I'm pregnant". I know I'm supposed to treat htem as if they are real, but that one made me chuckle. We got through it. It's a terrible desease. So..yeah, I been busy and haven;t been able to work this problem.

So, back to our troubled reloader. Here is some things I have tried and what I have found out. My suspicion was that I was crimping the bullets. That was partially true. I reseated all the dies in turret per the instructions. I did find that the seating die was too low and was engaging the roll crim even when I thought it wasnl;t set for that. Aftr fixong this, the pprobalenm still existed. I had two "factory" cartridges. I say factory as one was a little bent and could have been someone elses reload (very slight oil can wrinkle), so I disassembled it since I planned on reloading the brass and using the bullet as well (throw the powder). I mike-ed (I don't have a micrometer, so I used my calipers) the factory bullet (copper jacketed soft point) and it was at 0.425/0.426. Interesting and when I used it for a dummy load, it fit in the Cowboy chamber checker just fine...fell in and out with no problem. Interesting,,,,

I then mike-ed the cast bullets that I was using and they were at 0.431 and many mike-ed at 0.433. The bullets came from Meister and are clearly marked as 0.429 and specifically for the 44-40. So much for Meisters Quality Control. My sus[icions are that some. maybe none were sized aft casting and the mod casts at 0.431 or greater and they never resized them after casting. They are "as cast" bullets. I can still use them and they will probably shoot nicely in my 44 Mag and 44 Specials. Some loaded shells would fit the chamber checker because they were a smaller cast bullets, I think smae may have been sized and some not.

I als tried Hicks suggesting and removed the decapping pin and resized a sample I had made (with no primer or powder), and it wworked fine in the Chambeer checker. GREAT IDEA!!!! Thanks Hicks!!!! They did resize a little hard but it worked. I tried this sample in the rifle, which BTW is a lever action El Tigre (Winchester 92 action type). The rifle actually has "44 Largo" on the side, which is still 44-40. The shell does go in kind of hard, but haven't tried fitting any factory in it yet either (I don't like loading live bullets in a firearm in the house...I'll take it outside tomorrow in the light). I also suspect that although the new 44-40s may be 0.429, this may be (according to google 0.427). I have ordered some 0.427 from Grafs and Son.

Not sure if having sized the bullets like Hicks suggested, that the (0.429) bullets (that now fit the chamber checker) are safe to fire in the El Tigre? The Taylor and company is new and probably at 0.429. Given this I may need two different bullets of the same caliber...my original intention was to have a rifle and pistol of the same caliber using interchangable cartridges. When I get a chance. I may try them in both guns and see what I get for accuracy.

That's where I am....Thanks Again guys for all the help. I never expected some much response. What a great resource! Thanks Guys!

Bill

[mehavey]

Get this and simply size them down to a uniform .429 or even .430
https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/1193/2/LEE-SIZE-429

[BoBSavage]

Pretty sure I said Lee does not make a 44 WCF Carbide Factory Crimp Die. Lee does sell a Factory Crimp Die in 44 WCF. Not sure what you mean by "LFC".

Not exactly, which is what confused me. This is what you said, might not have been what you meant...or again. like directions...I failed to properly inturpret!


This has never been the case for me - perhaps the Lee directions are not being read? The Lee FCD is a very different thing from the Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die. Only the FCD is available for the 44 WCF round.

Again, I saw no previous mention of a carbide die by anyone else and couldn't figure out why you mentioned it in the first place.

And yes, I failed to add the D to the LFCD, which is Lee Factory Crimp Die

[mnewcomb59]

My best advice for the 44-40 is the lee 452-200-rf in a neck sized 45 Colt case, then squint real hard when you load them and shoot them in a 45 Colt. 100% satisfaction lol

[Outpost75]

The El Tigre is a strong rifle and typical chambers are "generous" in terms of case neck diameter, typically .448-.450". If rounds with a lead bullet will chamber, they are safe to shoot.

[mehavey]

Troops...

Methinks hwilliam01 found his problem in Post #35 (https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?464230-Need-Advice-with-loading-44-40&p=5674081&viewfull=1#post5674081),
And his solution in Post #36 (https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?464230-Need-Advice-with-loading-44-40&p=5674094&viewfull=1#post5674094).

[fredj338]

I used to shoot 44-40 in CAS. It took a bit to get dies setup correctly to give reliable ammo that fed in a rifle. The crimp is one factor. Over crimping can cause loss of neck tension & a round failing to chamber. Its a Goldie locks thing, not too little, not too much. The thin cases will stretch quite a bit & have to be checked after each firing so crimp is unifrom.

[Outpost75]

If bullet diameter was an issue don't you think all rounds, not just 1/3, would fail to chamber or to not fit in the gage?

Not necessarily. Variation in case lengths can be the cause. Older .44-40 cases are frequently up to 1.305" whereas new Starline are 1.28-1.285 like their .44 Mag brass. I trim all cases to 1.285, size bullets .429 and use the Redding Profile Crimp die. No issues in any of my .44-40 guns, old Colts, Rugers, Pietta, Uberti, Marlin, Winchester, Rossi.

[BoBSavage]

Troops...

Methinks hwilliam01 found his problem in Post #35 (https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?464230-Need-Advice-with-loading-44-40&p=5674081&viewfull=1#post5674081),
And his solution in Post #36 (https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?464230-Need-Advice-with-loading-44-40&p=5674094&viewfull=1#post5674094).

Bow to the God!

[Tall]

Get this and simply size them down to a uniform .429 or even .430
https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/1193/2/LEE-SIZE-429

I would size them down to .427" and then they would for sure work. I ran a round through my revolver and that is what I came up with for bore dimension on my Uberti SAA. The SAAMI Spec is .427" - .0030" so this ought to be spot on.

[mehavey]

I would recommend the OP size them for as large a diameter as will chamber.
(.429 min to start)