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View Full Version : Found a package deal- Buckshot



Bret4207
01-24-2006, 06:59 PM
Talked to an old guy today, like 86 years old. He offered me a 13x40 Frejolt or Frejold lathe with a mess of tooling, a Cincinatti horizontal mill with a mess of tooling and an Wells Index verticle mill with, you guessed it, a mess of tooling. All for $2500.00. I can't find anything on the Frejolt, he says it's German. Heck of a thing to have to consider. I'm gonna have to go back and see more about it I guess.

kenjuudo
01-24-2006, 07:35 PM
Assuming you have three phase and space, jump on it. The Index mill is a very capable machine if in good shape. And any lathe is better than no lathe. There are alot of these old tools out there that have alot of good years left in them.

jim

versifier
01-25-2006, 12:46 AM
Bret,
If you have experience with lathes, it is probably unnecessary for me to tell you this, but the easiest way I know to tell if a lathe has been used really hard or abused is to examine the ways (the bearing surfaces that the tool holder and tailstock move back and forth on). Look below the chuck on the headstock for dents, dings, chunks missing, etc., from work pieces escaping and causing damage. Run the carriage back and forth and see if it moves smoothly. Turn it on and see if the lead screw (the square-threaded rod that the apron can engage for cutting threads) is true and is not warped.
If they are in decent shape, any one of them is worth at least as much (with the tooling) as he wants for all three. Sale of the horizontal mill (the least versatile of the three machines), to a machine shop that needed one, could repay your whole investment and still leave you with the two machines you'd need to do most anything you'd ever want to on a gun, or for your reloading and boolit casting setups. Gunsmith's heaven. [smilie=p: [smilie=p: [smilie=p:
The lathe is the most versatile machine in the shop, and with the proper tooling and attachments can do just about any job in the conceivable. :shock:
Though they can be done on the lathe, the vertical mill is much easier to set up for jobs like cutting dovetails, cutting extractor grooves, drilling and tapping. With a complete set of collets and a selection of end mills, taps, and various reamers and cutters you can do all kinds of amazing things. Depending on the table length, you can perform facing operations on longer pieces that would be impossible to do on the lathe, too. :smile:
Horizontal mills are more suited to production operations (I have run one at the barrel factory that faced eight octagonal barrel at once for different sized drop-ins), and they also are great for running expandable reamers to finish size things like lubrisizer inserts and push through boolit sizers. (They have machines that run only the reamers, and they are technically horiz mills, too, but without the moving work surface.) They can also be set up with slitting saws, planeing cutters, slotting cutters, abrasive wheels for surface grinding, and more. ;-)
If you have the room to put them, I wouldn't hesitate to snap them up.
Maybe you can pay him for a few days of teaching you the ins and outs of their particulars and how to do the various tooling setups. Learning how to grind lathe cutters from someone who really knows sure beats trying to puzzle it out from a book. The knowledge in that old man's head is worth many many times more than the machines. :idea: Take LOTS of pictures as you are learning and write up what he tells you about the various setups before CRS (yours and his) wipes them from memory at the most inconvenient times! :razz:

Buckshot
01-25-2006, 01:58 AM
...............Brett, you're right close to the rust belt, I figured stuff like this would be sitting out on the curb 8), HA!

Go to: http://www.lathes.co.uk/index.html For info on the lathe. I think their lathes are marked "ACRA". They're very capable machines. Hopefully the PO took care of it. As Kenjuudo said, the Wells Index VM is very highly regarded, and is every bit as good as a Bridgeport.

I'd like to have room for a nice horizontal mill. I haven't done anything to date to require one, but if I had one I could probably come up with something! Cincinnati is a good name and they built quality heavy machines. I've seen horizontal mills on E-Bay for giveaway prices but they're all back east.

Horizontal milling cutters can be found dirt cheap on E-Bay. I bought 23 brand new ones in the last few minutes of an auction for $75 which was the starting bid! Shipping to me was $53. Yes, you're correct in that you heard me right in that I'd mentioned above, I had NO horizontal milling machine!!!!!

Why did I buy them? It's a serious illness I have. It's name is "Tool Aquisition Syndrome". I'f it's sharp and shiney, I'm very attracted. Anyway they were brand new. They were beautifull pieces of machinework. I got to handle them and look at them. and then realized what a putz I was for buying them. I listed them on the Practical Machinist's "For Sale" forum and doubled my money.

I thought you had a lathe?

If you bring that VM out here I'll buy it from ya!

...................Buckshot

Frank46
01-25-2006, 04:50 AM
Brett, be warned though. You will be addicted to getting even more tooling. Catalogs like enco, travers tools, manhattan supply corp will become your bibles and you will walk around stoop shouldered and wanting the stuff you ordered overnighted. But iffen I was you, go for it. Before I moved to loosiana, a cousin who worked for a printing press company offered me a 10" logan and a vertical mill for $3000. Had no place to put them and was in the process of boxing up what I did have. Still kick myself for not buying them. Frank

Bret4207
01-25-2006, 06:27 PM
Thanks guys- It's a Frejoth lathe, not Frejold, thus the reason I couldn't find anything on it on the web. For those that don't know, I have a 6" Atlas and 7"Atlas shaper and have some maching experience. I NEED a bigger lathe as I'm just plain abusing the little Atlas trying to do farm work on it that is too big. The mills would be great and would work into my retirement plans of returning to logging/forestry/farm equipment sales and repair, (some gunnysmithing too). Room however is a factor, as is the $$$. We'll have to see what happens.

Bret4207
01-25-2006, 07:56 PM
Well boys the Frejoth appears to be a Tiawanese (sp) jobby. Can't find anything like an opinion of how they stood up or if they had any problems. The old guy converted the 2 mills to 220 I think. He's got a huge old block building filled with machine tools. Not too many visitors since the time "THE LORD" came to visit him. Yup- THE Lord. Sat down and talked with him. At first I figured he was nuts. Then I figured since I'm not privy to Gods plans and where he might appear, much less knowing whom He might choose to speak to that I'd play it safe and just accept his story as told. Hey, they said Joan of Arc was nuts too. Who am I to say different? At any rate I'm going to stop back and talk some more with him. He lives in a little apartment in the back of the building. Kind of reminds me of photos of Harry Pope when he was old. Sad to see what old age does to folks.

The Cincinnatti is something I'd have to learn to use. The Index verticle would be real handy. It sits next to a Bridgeport. The old timer says he'd just as soon use the Index fwiw. Well see what works out.

Buckshot
01-25-2006, 09:17 PM
.............Frejoth is a Taiwanese. Like I said, check ACRA as that is possibly how the lathe is badged.

How often do you suppose deals like this will come around? Do you or do you not need it. Have you been a good boy, and deserve it 8). Easier to buy it now while you're still working, rather then on retirement income.

FWIW I paid $1500 for my 11" Logan. I got a good deal, and no 2 ways about it, but the $2500 for the 3 machines is a steal.

220, 3 PH is the way to go. Smoother and more torque. No big to set up.

...............Buckshot

versifier
01-26-2006, 02:46 AM
Soooo.....don't keep us in suspense.....whatcha gonna do? You got 3phase power available? (Are there 3 lines at the top of the poles?) If not, phase converters are easy enough to scare up.

Frank46
01-26-2006, 03:57 AM
Tpr Brett, since you have a crying need for these machine tools, and maybe you can get the money together then buy them. Cause if you don't it'll be like the one that got away. Besides, if the old gentleman passes away then either his relatives will sell them or scrap them. And that would be a shame. Besides you could make some money back with them on your time off and have a well equipped shop for your own use. Works out both ways. Frank

Bret4207
01-28-2006, 08:30 AM
No 3 phase available, but I think the motors have been changed to 220 single phase IIRC. After thinking it over I'm going to have to let the Cincinnatti pass. Too big floor space-wise. Just isn't enough room. I'm going to try for the other 2. The horizontal would be great for production type work on heavy stuff, but the vert will do fine for the "one off " type of thing I do. A DRO would be a nice addition, but plain old dials will work fine till I get the hang of things. Been many years isnce I played with a mill. Most stuff has of the milling type has been done in the Atlas lathe with a Palmgren attachment. I've done stuff thats just WAY too big to be done in that little lathe, and stressed it plenty. We'll see if I can change that.

Buckshot
02-01-2006, 03:57 AM
.......................Fer crissakes! Didja buy'em or not? This is killing me, and it's not even ME!

..................Buckshot

Bret4207
02-02-2006, 09:00 AM
Hey man- Give me a little time! This ain't exactly Ft Knox around here. I going to try and get by next week and talk to him. We'll see if I can cut a deal.

wills
02-02-2006, 09:11 AM
Better hurry up and grab ‘em. It’s the things you didn’t do you’ll regret forever!

Buckshot
02-24-2006, 04:52 AM
...........So I guess you didn't get them?

.................Buckshot

Bret4207
02-24-2006, 03:56 PM
Still up in the air, so to speak.

Bret4207
11-30-2006, 01:00 PM
The old guy got arrested for illegally selling guns, and resisting arrest, the other day. I'm torn between staying the heck away and offering him a cash deal since I figure he needs the bucks. Consience is a bear sometimes.

felix
11-30-2006, 01:10 PM
Depends on the term "illegal". Might not be in your personal terms. In that case, don't let that interfere with your dealings with him. ... felix

kywoodwrkr
11-30-2006, 02:08 PM
Tpr. Bret.
Do it.
If you need any of Ft Knox, let me know and I'll stop on the way home some night and pick up a small sample alongside the road.
:-)
Along as I don't get inside this tall fence they have, I'm okay.
Seriously, my bank would do a small loan in a heart beat for that sort of tool assortment.
Credit union as well.
I know-I'm already in hock for those good 'deals'!
DaveP kywoodwrkr

floodgate
11-30-2006, 08:51 PM
Bret:

Google up Tony-Lathes-UK, or some combination thereof. He is in England and maintains a website - and offers CDs - listing all sorts of lathes, mills, etc., with scans of ads, photos, specs, etc., etc. I can't find my copy of the CD jusdt now, but it is several years old and 'way out of date anyhow. Worth a few minutes of your time, anyhow. Keep us posted and let us know if we can help bankroll the deal (an offer you cant'a refuse!).

floodgate

Bret4207
12-11-2006, 09:11 AM
Well, he's still in the hoosegow. He used to have an FFL and it lapsed 30 years ago. He just went right on selling. I don't think he knows the difference. Or cares. I'll have to talk to his son.

toecutter
12-11-2006, 11:01 AM
If you don't want to keep the horizontal mill, I could ask around and see if I know anyone who's looking for one. If the price is right, and you're near CA I might pick it up.

Regardless of that guys legal status, I say buy the tools. Besides, he needs the money.

Buckshot
12-11-2006, 01:24 PM
If you don't want to keep the horizontal mill, I could ask around and see if I know anyone who's looking for one. If the price is right, and you're near CA I might pick it up.

Regardless of that guys legal status, I say buy the tools. Besides, he needs the money.


............Brett's in New York. If it was a nice Rockwell or Clausing benchmill it'd be worth shipping across the country, but if it's some hulking WW2 era Cincinnati ............. well you might was well ship a Sherman tank :-) Not that the Cinci would be a bad machine!

.................Buckshot

grumpy one
12-11-2006, 07:02 PM
I grew up occasionally using a Cincinatti No. 5, a toolroom sized universal mill (ie both horizontal and vertical, with the table able to be rotated relative to the horizonal cutting axis, and the dividing head able to be gear-driven from the horizontal feed screw to cut helixes). That machine spoiled me for life; never known to chatter, and if you dialed in a one-thou cut, the job got smaller by exactly one thou right along its length. The thing was made in WW II and sold new at the end of the war, never having gone into service - my uncle bought it.

The reason I mention all this is that those machines were extremely accessory-intensive compared with a Bridgeport-style mill. To do an ordinary range of things you needed a vice, a dividing head, a rotary table, a tilting table, a vertical accessory head, a slotting attachment, etc. Every one of those accessories was too heavy to lift, so you had to have a chainblock on a monorail pivoting overhead, with lots of storage space around the machine. When my uncle died, even though I really liked that machine, I got rid of it and bought a Bridgeport-style mill because I just couldn't accommodate the layout for all of the accessories at home. Of course I now have a machine that can't be compared with the Cincinatti for accuracy or capacity, but I can store, lift and carry the accessories.

It is an urban legend that when you buy any kind of mill, you need to allow an additional equal amount of money for tooling and accessories. That might be true for a Bridgeport, but it certainly isn't true for a Cincinatti. Any one of the accessories I named was worth as much as the machine, even though the machine was effectively new (it only ran maybe fifty hours in my uncle's lifetime). As it happened I didn't get a dime for any part of it - an acquaintance of my uncle's "bought" it with all its tooling and accessories but didn't put up the money right away, then died. His wife just refused to discuss it with me and sold it off. Such is life.