38- 148 and 150 SWC Lee results / +crimp

[BJung]

What results have you achieved shooting your cast 148wc Lee and 150swc Lee through a 38 special load at 21 yards? Do you light crimp or Lee FCD them and did you discover that it made a difference?

Initially I had a 1" group at a 21yd outdoor range using a light crimp to remove the flare. Then tonight I tested the same load but at an indoor range (sure looked farther) and shot 2" group with a light crimp that removed the flare. A FCD or heavy crimp did not improve the group size between the three.

The 38-150swc grouped at 2" also but the best group used a FCD.

My loads were with 2.8gr BE for the 148/152wc and 3.6BE for the 150/152. The second number is the actual weight. All case lengths were the same.

[waco]

I try to rely on neck tension to hold the bullet. I use just enough crimp to remove the flare.

[Bazoo]

Lighting conditions are much poorer indoors than outdoors, which affects your sighting.

[ABJ]

We are "bullseye" shooters and have tested crimps on Lee BNWC and Magma DEWC flush. The Lee BNWC crimped in the crimp groove gave us the best groups at 25 yds. We decided the FCD was better than a taper crimp. Our adjustments are as follows,
remove flare, then a 1/4 turn from that position and test each crimp. With our alloy the second 1/4 turn was usually the best.
I repeat, the crimp is alloy and powder charge specific. The best we got on a 5 shot group, handheld off bags was a .6 inch, center to center. Best Powder was red dot and unique and hp-38 in that order. Sorry bullseye fans. But to be fair, Bullseye powder did best in the DEWC seated flush but not crimped in the crimp groove.
20:1 alloy in our test was the absolute best alloy hands down.
Tony

[Bazoo]

We are "bullseye" shooters and have tested crimps on Lee BNWC and Magma DEWC flush. The Lee BNWC crimped in the crimp groove gave us the best groups at 25 yds. We decided the FCD was better than a taper crimp. Our adjustments are as follows,
remove flare, then a 1/4 turn from that position and test each crimp. With our alloy the second 1/4 turn was usually the best.
I repeat, the crimp is alloy and powder charge specific. The best we got on a 5 shot group, handheld off bags was a .6 inch, center to center. Best Powder was red dot and unique and hp-38 in that order. Sorry bullseye fans. But to be fair, Bullseye powder did best in the DEWC seated flush but not crimped in the crimp groove.
20:1 alloy in our test was the absolute best alloy hands down.
Tony

Thats interesting as heck, thanks for sharing. I don't suppose you have a link to a thread with some of the discussions or testing?

[jdgabbard]

I use a standard crimp on my boolits. I don't use the FCD for cast. That said, I typically average about 3-4" at 25yds today. But before my eyesight started getting worse I was doing much much better. The group below, if you remove the flyer, is a .79" group if my memory serves me. It was the Lee TL358-158-SWC over 4.0grs of Unique, and tumble lubed in LLA. This was shot in a 4" S&W 65.

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=50815&d=1256978945

[Bazoo]

Nice shooting JD. About the best I can do is around an inch rested, on a good day. It sure is fun trying.

[ABJ]

Bazoo, I do not have a link to the testing but am glad to share any info you want. I have responded to several threads over the years where I had factual information to share.
We quit shooting the BNWC in favor of the lee 105 swc for competition. Just as accurate maybe more but I can shoot a higher score with the 105. The Recoil with 4.0 of hp-38 is way less than the 148 and helps pick up points on the rapid fire stage as well as the 50yd. stage.
Our best groups was shot with a model 14, 6 inch and model 15, 4 inch both with ultra dot scopes. Our rest was bottom of triggerguard on bag and tight grip trying to hold the muzzle down during recoil as much as possible. We always tested 5 shot strings to mimic what we would be shooting in a match.
The 105 mold did not benefit from using 20:1 so we used our std.alloy of 2 tin and 4% antimony. My mold on the 105 produces the sharpest shoulder of any mold I own. Cuts clean holes on tight paper. Crimp matters on it as well as the wc.
We have to use Federal primers and used std federal cases on the 105 and federal wc cases on the bnwc. That is about all the highlights I can think of but glad to continue the discussion or answer any questions.
Tony

[ABJ]

Bazoo, One more interesting note on the 105 vs the 148 using factory barrels. The 148 zeroed at 25 is way low at 50 and a sight or scope adjustment is mandatory.
The 105, zeroed at 25 is on at 50 with our ultradots, no adjustments.
We also tested a PPC gun with a 10 twist douglas barrel, iron sights, WOW what a gun with wc's. Probably deserves it's own thread.
Tony

[jdgabbard]

Nice shooting JD. About the best I can do is around an inch rested, on a good day. It sure is fun trying.

Bazoo, I was much younger then. My eyes didn't see fuzzy dots where the bullseye was. And I didn't get as much fatigue in my hands. I'm not really that old, will be 41 in April. But I've had a lot of wear and tear throughout the years.

You younger guys take note, take care of yourselves, less you end up like me... 40 with enough arthritis to sell in bulk...

[Bazoo]

ABJ, thank you for that detailed response. It's certainly something to consider. I've not shot the Lee 105 SWC, but I've had experience with he 358-140-SWC and I thought it was excellent.

Did you test sizing vs unsized? If you desired .358, would you rather a mould that dropped right at .358 or one that dropped .359 and size to .358?

Yep, JD, I'm in about the same boat. I can still see pretty good, but I'm getting some astigmatism. I have carpal tunnel from working. On a good day, I can still hold my own though! On a bad day... well, I don't post pictures of the groups.

[StrawHat]

I have shot pallets of hbwc bullets and equal amounts of the Lee boolit. Crimp matters! Or lack of crimp. I competed in PPC. What worked for me was to size the case and flare it with only enough flare to help seat the bullet. Load powder and bullet and then size enough to remove the flare. I will have to check but I may have reduced the sizing mandrel to increase neck tension.

Now, I stopped competition 30 years ago. But, that is what I recall.

I am very interested in what Tony is reporting. Adjusting the crimp a 1/4 turn at a time is interesting. I now load a wadcutter for my ACP revolvers. Perhaps some testing is in order!

Kevin

[ABJ]

Bazoo, yes we did test different sizing. In my alloys all my molds drop 359 to 361. We tested 358 and 359. The guns were a model 14 stock barrel, model 15 with a taylor throated barrel, two 1911 38 specials and a colt trooper with a 12 twist barrel. I also have a Dr. Blackman bench top swage press we made hollow base boolits with. (358 only).

Without writing a book the highlights are: Only the Colt liked 359 more than 358. I have no idea why because it has the smallest bore/grove. A tight .355. One 1911 would shoot 359 on some loads. The Clark 1911 did not like 359 at all. Keep in mind all the 1911 test was with flush DEWC. The only swaged bullet that did better than cast was a DEWC cast in pure lead, sized and lubed in 358 with one groove lubed then swaged into a hollow base. That preserves the lube groove. I think that boolit weight was close to 155 gr. best I can remember. !!!Powder charge warning on a flush boolit that long and heavy.!!!
Most all the 1911 loads did better with a heavier spring and using HP-38 or Unique instead of the standard Bullseye and such.

If there was one gun that stood out with all loads it was the 15 4 inch with a taylor throated barrel. The 14 stock barrel was a close second. The Colt had either a load it liked a lot or not at all compared to the other two. The 1911's were like the Colt, they either liked it or they didn't no in between.

If a load showed promise, it was reloaded with adjustment to the crimp. some worked some didn't. My advise to all WC shooters is don't get hung up on the old standard 2.7 Bullseye load. In all our test it was never the best load. I am not knocking Bullseye powder as it is my go to in 45 acp, just not 38's. Unique was our best in the range of 3.5 to 3.7.

For all the members not familiar with Bullseye or precision pistol, all these guns have had trigger jobs, cylinders uniformed to .358+, forcing cones polished and squared if needed. Other than forcing cones and the one taylor throat, the barrels were stock.

For competition shooters the Lee 105 swc or the Magma 100 swc offers a lighter recoil and flatter trajectory for your centerfire legs if you are using a revolver.
For field use and most other uses I still prefer a Wadcutter.
One more note, In GENERAL the cast wadcutter will out shoot swaged WC,s in most guns provided a quality alloy and careful casting. There are exceptions, but mostly I think the lube groove and modern quality lubes play a huge roll in accuracy. We used pure lead, antimonial lead and lead,tin,antimony alloys. Alloy in general did better with some tin in them. Believe it or not the pure lead gave us the most accurate load on a clean barrel, but leaded within the third string of five shots and accuracy went way south.
Tony

[Bazoo]

Bazoo, yes we did test different sizing. In my alloys all my molds drop 359 to 361. We tested 358 and 359. The guns were a model 14 stock barrel, model 15 with a taylor throated barrel, two 1911 38 specials and a colt trooper with a 12 twist barrel. I also have a Dr. Blackman bench top swage press we made hollow base boolits with. (358 only).

Without writing a book the highlights are: Only the Colt liked 359 more than 358. I have no idea why because it has the smallest bore/grove. A tight .355. One 1911 would shoot 359 on some loads. The Clark 1911 did not like 359 at all. Keep in mind all the 1911 test was with flush DEWC. The only swaged bullet that did better than cast was a DEWC cast in pure lead, sized and lubed in 358 with one groove lubed then swaged into a hollow base. That preserves the lube groove. I think that boolit weight was close to 155 gr. best I can remember. !!!Powder charge warning on a flush boolit that long and heavy.!!!
Most all the 1911 loads did better with a heavier spring and using HP-38 or Unique instead of the standard Bullseye and such.

If there was one gun that stood out with all loads it was the 15 4 inch with a taylor throated barrel. The 14 stock barrel was a close second. The Colt had either a load it liked a lot or not at all compared to the other two. The 1911's were like the Colt, they either liked it or they didn't no in between.

If a load showed promise, it was reloaded with adjustment to the crimp. some worked some didn't. My advise to all WC shooters is don't get hung up on the old standard 2.7 Bullseye load. In all our test it was never the best load. I am not knocking Bullseye powder as it is my go to in 45 acp, just not 38's. Unique was our best in the range of 3.5 to 3.7.

For all the members not familiar with Bullseye or precision pistol, all these guns have had trigger jobs, cylinders uniformed to .358+, forcing cones polished and squared if needed. Other than forcing cones and the one taylor throat, the barrels were stock.

For competition shooters the Lee 105 swc or the Magma 100 swc offers a lighter recoil and flatter trajectory for your centerfire legs if you are using a revolver.
For field use and most other uses I still prefer a Wadcutter.
One more note, In GENERAL the cast wadcutter will out shoot swaged WC,s in most guns provided a quality alloy and careful casting. There are exceptions, but mostly I think the lube groove and modern quality lubes play a huge roll in accuracy. We used pure lead, antimonial lead and lead,tin,antimony alloys. Alloy in general did better with some tin in them. Believe it or not the pure lead gave us the most accurate load on a clean barrel, but leaded within the third string of five shots and accuracy went way south.
Tony

Wow, that's awesome information, thank you for sharing.

[ABJ]

Bazoo, Another note on the testing which is the MOST important of all, We started with clean barrels, fired six shot on revolvers and 5 in 1911's into the berm, not on paper. This is to condition the barrels and forcing cones to the alloy and lube. We did not pay any attention to which five cylinders were used after the conditioning shots.
I think this is good standard practice when testing any load. Takes the clean barrel equation out of the results.
Just to prove this point, my 1911 45 custom built with a Kart barrel takes 40 rounds after cleaning to hold the x ring at 25.(yes off the bench, I'm not that good) and my wife's gun will hold the x on the first five shots after cleaning but will only shoot a 2700 match before it starts walking shots. Mine will shot several match's before cleaning is needed. Both have Kart barrels.
Tony

[StrawHat]

Going along with what Tony posted, most PPC competitors would only clean their revolvers if it became difficult to shoot! Then, after cleaning, we would fire a “practice” match to season the revolver before we would shoot a registered match.

Kevin

[Bazoo]

Awesome information, thanks ABJ and Strawhat.

[BJung]

Thanks ABJ, Strawhat, and Bazoo for adding to this post. I plan to make test loads using crimps based on turning my seating die in by 1/4 turns. I'll keep other powders in mind besides BE for future test loads. The same with buying a Lee 38-106gr SWC mold. Has anyone experimented with the Lee 356-120TC bullet in a .38 special load? i've been able to size the bullet to .357 but never tried seeing if I could size the bullet at .358 with a double coat of PC. This might be a waste of time but Waco mentioned neck tension. This might be the reason one case can assemble a more accurate load than another because of the neck case thickness. Has anyone used a mandrel to expand cases to a certain inside Diameter first? But then..(I'm thinking out loud), there is spring back. What scrap lead are you finding 3% antinomy and adding 2% tin or a final alloy close to this? Jacketed core, .22lr, pellet lead? Do you weight segregate your wadcutters? I seem to get an equal % of different weights as if each cavity was off slightly causing a weight and size difference?

[dverna]

BJung,

In your first post you said 21 yards. Are you sure it was feet and not yards?

I have been at a few ranges, and never seen a 21 Yard line.

If you are getting 1" groups at 21 yards, you have nothing to learn!!

[ABJ]

BJung, I was gifted some 1970/80's Remington wadcutter brass from a retired PPC shooter, well used and prone to splitting. So to reduce wear and tear I decided to not size them. I had an old herters decap only die and used an old rcbs steel die to lightly resize the mouth.
Almost no neck tension at all. IF I could get a crimp on them before they fell into the case they shot great. I decided it was too dangerous a way of doing it so I stopped. I never could get the proper amount of tension with the dies I had at the time.

As far as alloy goes, the easiest way to build alloy is find a scrap dealer that has sheet lead from remodeling contractors, almost pure as far boolit casters are concerned. Except plumbing and HVAC joints, these joints have a lot of Tin solder.
A good tin/antimony source is Rotometals type metals, Foundry and lino. Download the alloy calculator from this site and start plugging numbers in until you get what you want.
For antimony you can buy rotometals super hard to add antimony.
For example, 4 lbs of sheet lead to .55 lbs of foundry type gives you 95.4-1.45-3.14, a good soft alloy for low pressure loads. Or
4 lbs of sheet lead to .72 lbs of foundry type give you 94.2-1.83-3.97, this alloy is the best all purpose alloy I have ever mixed. I am using the foundry type numbers that rotometals is selling in the pre-packed boxes.
Don't get hung up on 1.8% tin vs 2% tin, but on antimony those same numbers will change the brinell slightly.
Tony

[BJung]

Hi Dverna,

I can be totally wrong and apologize for any miscommunication. The distance is a guess based on a 50 yard target on the range as well. The pistol targets seem to be half of that.

Attached is a photo of the targets in the background. I know it's more than 18" based on the length of my father's 18' boat. Would my father's 21' boat reach the targets. Not quite.

I use an Amazon shipping bag filled with the dirt and bullets from this berm, bench shoot my handgun from this, and have a folding stool to shoot from.

321916321916

[dondiego]

21 feet is 7 yards, a common police shooting distance.