Help --- How many grooves need lube?

[Snobal]

I cast up a pile of RCBS 148 Grain BBWC bullets from a mould I've had for about 30 years and always had great results with.

Today I shot the best groups I've had with my new GP100 (less than 2" at 25 yards) and was most pleased. Good groups (for me) and very little leading.

When I got home and was looking at all the "greasy smoke" on the outside of the stainless GP100, I got to wondering if I really need to fill all three grease grooves with bullet lube. From the about of crud on the outside of the gun, it appears to have more than enough lubrication.

I'm thinking that I read somewhere that for lite target loads, filling only one groove is enough.

So a question for the "experts" --- How many grooves need to be lubed?

My loads today were bullets from a 148 Grain RCBS BBWC mound that drops at 140 grains with my alloy, sized to .358, Win .357 Mag cases, standard SP primers, and Bullseye powder.

The two loads for today clocked at 781 FPS for the target load and 888 FPS for my small game load.

So do I need one, two, or all three lube grooves filled?

Duh... I guess I should mention I'm using the 'ol NRA formula bullet lube ---- Alox 2138 and beeswax. Only got a couple of sticks left. Did they quit making it????

Thanks in advance --- just trying to learn from you folks and save some trips to the range.:-D

[Heavy lead]

Based on advise I received here, I only fill one (closest to the base) lube grooves on 358495 wc, 452460 swc, and the 454190 with light to medium loads and have good results.

[Doc Highwall]

Your gun will tell you. Try it with the bottom two lube grooves and with only with the bottom one.

[454PB]

As long as the particular gun barrel doesn't run out of lube, fill only one groove. If you see groups open and/or leading at the muzzle, fill another.

50/50 Alox/beeswax is still available, our own Lar45 sells it. His link is at the bottom of this page.

[Snobal]

Thanks to all you kind folks.:-D

I made a few bullets to try with only two grooves lubed --- then remembered this forum. It sure is great to have a place to ask questions.

I was trying to save some range time.:-D

Based on what you folks said, I think I'll clean the lube from all but the one groove and see how they do.

454 PB -- thanks for the tips on what to look for and about where to get more lube.

[GP100man]

i use lars45s carnauba red & fill all the grooves on my 35891 wc & have little smoke, & shineybore . i use clays & i don`t have any build up of lead ,soot or lube just a nice star on the end of the muzzle.
carnauba red is a lube that takes heat to apply once on the boolit it there to stay , BAC is softer but i`ve not tried it though.
50/50 has always seemed goooey to me , especially in summer!!
& have`nt tried just lubing one groove either !!!
but i push a 358477&358429 with 2400 & they only have one groove , hhmmmmmm.
so much shooting , so little time !!!!

GP100man:castmine:

[Dale53]

Typically, filling one lube groove on the popular solid base wadcutters is enough. Too much lube and you can lose accuracy. I shoot lots of the H&G #50 W/C and only fill one groove. I have shot most of the popular designs of w/c's over the years and only lubed one groove because that is more accurate in my guns.

No leading, EVER!
Dale53

[Snobal]

Thanks again to all of ya!

I loaded up 40 rounds with only the first groove lubed and went to the range.

Got a "Bullseye" match on Thursday morning so I wanted to practice a little anyway.

Bottom line.......

With only the bottom lube groove filled, I got some leading on the cylinder face (first time for that!) and a little leading in the barrel by the throat. Nothing that a quick pass with a brass brush wouldn't solve.....:-D

Lube "star" at end of muzzle was faint and not uniform like on my favorite .44 Mag loads in the Redhawk.

Gun was just as "greasy" and smoke covered as ever.....

Guess I'll just lube all three grooves and be done with it.

Again, I just shot the best group with this gun since I got it back in Jan from Ruger Rehab.... (sent it in in October right after I bought it to get cylinder and barrel aligned.....)

Prior to "rehab," wadcutter bullets key-holed wildly. Now wadcutter bullets hit mostly straight. Sweet....:-D

[Dale53]

>>>Again, I just shot the best group with this gun since I got it back in Jan from Ruger Rehab..<<<

This is the key statement. Accuracy is the name of the game. You might want to reconsider your intention to lube all three grooves. What's a bit of leading when you have the best accuracy ever??

FWIW
Dale53

[GSM]

From the NRA book by Col. Harrison, the NRA 50/50 in one groove seemed to be the best in his tests for extended (like a BE 900) shooting. Too much lube was found to decrease accuracy over a short period.

I think he liked (or found better accuracy with) the H&G #50 BB over the plain base as well.

[waksupi]

Snobal, sounds like you are getting close. If you are still getting a touch of leading at the throat end of the barrel, you might try a bit softer alloy that will bump up a bit faster. Also, check the diameter of the cylinder throat and barrel, you my just need another thou or so on the bullet diameter.

[Snobal]

Snobal, sounds like you are getting close. If you are still getting a touch of leading at the throat end of the barrel, you might try a bit softer alloy that will bump up a bit faster. Also, check the diameter of the cylinder throat and barrel, you my just need another thou or so on the bullet diameter.


waksupi --

Thanks!

I was thinking about blending up some softer alloy....:-D

When I said that I had got the "best groups ever" with this gun, I was referring to this cast bullet with all three grooves lubed.

When I shot it yesterday with only one groove lubed, I just shot a 25 yard slow fire string and an NRA short course. Didn't check the group, just wanted to check the barrel for leading.

Loaded up 100 rounds today with all three grooves lubed for the match tomorrow. Will check groups and leading with only two grooves lubed next week.

Woke up this A.M. thinking that I should polish the throat some..... So I make a couple of nickle-sized patches of crocus cloth and used them in my Lewis Lead Remover to slick up the throat. WOW! It sure came out pretty. At the match tomorrow morning, I'll see it it helped with the one spot of leading at 6 O'clock on the bottom of the throat.

Thanks again for all the advice.:-D

[Snobal]

From the NRA book by Col. Harrison, the NRA 50/50 in one groove seemed to be the best in his tests for extended (like a BE 900) shooting. Too much lube was found to decrease accuracy over a short period.

I think he liked (or found better accuracy with) the H&G #50 BB over the plain base as well.

One of my old books on reloading quoted an article from a 1957 American Rifleman which discussed improved accuracy with only one groove lubed. :-D

[Snobal]

oops...

The book I was talking about is "Cast Bullets" by Col. E.H. Harrison....

I just noticed that it a "A Publication of the National Rifle Association of America."

[Harry O]

From the NRA book by Col. Harrison, the NRA 50/50 in one groove seemed to be the best in his tests for extended (like a BE 900) shooting. Too much lube was found to decrease accuracy over a short period.


That was not exactly what I remembered, but I waited until I could dig out the article and re-read it.

You are entirely correct when you are talking about the NRA 50-50 lube (Alox 2138F and filtered beeswax). Only one lube groove was enough with that lube and filling all of the grooves did degrade accuracy after extended shooting sessions.

However, he also tested the other commonly used lubes available at the time. This included various combinations of beeswax and tallow; paraffin wax, petroleum jelly, and oil; paraffin wax and cosmoline; etc. In those cases, he found that all three lube grooves in the bullet he was testing had to be filled. He said, "Leaving them out of one or 2 grooves resulted in excessive barrel and cylinder leading...."

I know that a lot of people here make their own lube and a lot of them do not use Alox. In that case, you should test how many lube grooves are needed to be filled with the lube you are using instead of taking someones word for it.

[TCLouis]

Remember when one could buy great books like that from NRA?

[cajun shooter]

Snobal, After your match and you are back to normal, please try using some BAC lube that is sold by a member on this forum. Your smoke will be gone!! The old 50/50 worked for years but it can be improved on. I also moved away from Bullseye which I'd shot since the 60's and started using Clays. The Difference is nice. No more smoke, smudge or dirty gun. I can go to the range and shoot, wipe down the outside of the gun and put it away if I so desired. I still prefer to clean them but the barrel and cylinder are clean. You can learn new tricks no matter the age. Ha! Ha!

[44man]

I have never been able to prove one way or the other in my revolvers. Most of my boolits do not actually get sized and are run through Lee size dies to remove excess lube and to seat checks if the boolit has them. I lapped a lot of dies so they do not size, just a faint rub on high spots.
I hand lube these with Felix and it gets everywhere, in my dies, all over the brass and on the boolit noses. Even the handles on my presses get sticky.
I wipe the brass off but never the boolits. My guns get dirty and I get a nice lube star. I shoot for months without a loss of accuracy and only clean when the cylinder gets stiff to turn. With the STP on the pin, that is a LOT of shooting.
I have never seen that "Break in with 50 shots to condition the bore to the lube" stuff either. I can take my clean gun, shoot one shot and then proceed to bust pop cans at 100 yd's or shoot tight groups and that will continue until the gun really needs cleaned.
I have good reason to believe the wrong lube will cause more trouble then how much you use. My interest is pure accuracy and my guns and brass get filthy. If all you care about is keeping your gun clean you might be missing out on what the gun can really do.
Yeah, I am famous for doing everything backwards! It works for me! :drinks:
I could barely turn my cylinder when I shot these 50 yd groups with the RD boolit smeared with Felix.

[Snobal]

Snobal, sounds like you are getting close. If you are still getting a touch of leading at the throat end of the barrel, you might try a bit softer alloy that will bump up a bit faster. Also, check the diameter of the cylinder throat and barrel, you my just need another thou or so on the bullet diameter.


Thanks for the suggestion on softer bullets.

I cast about 260 "softer" bullets today. I'll give this lot a week or so to harden up, then see how they do.:-D

[Ron B.]

:Fire:Hello,
I haven't yet read all the responses so, bare with me a little if someone else wrote what I'm about to.

For me, if the bullet design has one groove, it gets one groove filled with lube. If it has three, three. In other words, I love lubing! Lol! And, I absolutely love the smell of burning lube in the morning; the evening, any time. We all know what the #1 complaint is about cast bullets. Why risk it? Lube ain't expensive. Shoot, I even pump the Hades out of my Saeco Luber/SIzer; twisting the bullet doing so, attempting to put all the lube I can into those lube grooves!
[smilie=s:[smilie=s:

This joker ain't a joking either! :Fire::Fire:
GRB

[Snobal]

:Fire:Hello,
I haven't yet read all the responses so, bare with me a little if someone else wrote what I'm about to.

For me, if the bullet design has one groove, it gets one groove filled with lube. If it has three, three. In other words, I love lubing! Lol! And, I absolutely love the smell of burning lube in the morning; the evening, any time. We all know what the #1 complaint is about cast bullets. Why risk it? Lube ain't expensive. Shoot, I even pump the Hades out of my Saeco Luber/SIzer; twisting the bullet doing so, attempting to put all the lube I can into those lube grooves!
[smilie=s:[smilie=s:

This joker ain't a joking either! :Fire::Fire:
GRB

Thanks GoldenRoyBoy,

I have cast up anothe 300 or so RCBS 148 Grain wadcutter bullets. These come in at 141.5 Grains --- a little softer than the last batch....

I too don't care about the smoke --- I just want those suckers to go into one hole.

Thanks to this forum, I have found a place to buy more "ol time bullet lube.

:D

[Limey]

If you are going to cut down the number of lube grooves to fill on a bullet to my way of thinking the groove near the nose of the bulllet is the most important one to fill, not the one nearest the base of the bullet.

If you only fill the bottom groove near the base of the bullet there is the length of the unlubed bullet going up the barrel before some lube arrives.

If you fill the groove nearest the nose of the bullet the bore is lubed the quickest and then there is lube being deposited for the rest of the length of the unlubed bullet to run on up the barrel.

.....well, it seems to makes sense to me.......but personaly I fill all the groves up.

Only time I do not is bullets for my Sharps...I seat the bullet out so they just touch the rifling.....this leaves one whole groove unfilled so with these I paint on LLA on all the bullet bearing surfaces exposed to compensate for the unfilled lube groove.......it seems to work well for me.

Safe shooting,

Limey

[Snobal]

Thanks GoldenRoyBoy,

I have cast up another 300 or so RCBS 148 Grain wadcutter bullets. These come in at 141.5 Grains --- a little softer than the last batch....

I too don't care about the smoke --- I just want those suckers to go into one hole.

Thanks to this forum, I have found a place to buy more "ol time bullet lube.

:D

OOPS...

Make that 142.2 Grains (+ or - .3) versus 139.5 grains.....

Much softer.....:-D

I'll try them on Friday or Saturday.

Shot a pile of the 139.5 grain bullets today and had only very slight leading in the barrel forcing cone, none in the cylinder, none on the front of the cylinder, and a heavy lube "star" at the muzzle.:-D

Looks like lubing two of the three grooves may be the answer for this gun with this lube and load.:Fire:

[Snobal]

Hey waksupi...

Thanks again for the reminder that using softer bullets sometimes reduces leading. :drinks:

Shot 70 of the softer bullets yesterday (142.2 +/- .3 Gr.) and it really worked to reduce the leading.:-D

Got no leading in the bore of the 4" GP-100 and only very slight throat leading which came out with a couple of passes with a dry brass brush.:-D

Until I tried the softer alloy, I needed my Lewis Lead Remover to clean the throat area.

However, I was disappointed in the groups with this load. The wind was howling and I tried again and again and could not get a nice tight 25-yard group....:(

But after I gave up, I got to looking at the first target (the one on the bottom of the stack that caught all 29 rounds that I fired from a sandbag rest) and realized that 27 of 29 shots went into 2", c-t-c, and the total group size for the 29 shots was 2.8":)

I'd have to use a longer barrel than 4" to shoot much better than that with stock iron sights.:-D

The lube star was very heavy so I'll try a batch with only two of the three groves lubed and see if they group any better.:-D

[waksupi]

No problem, we are here to enable, er, serve!

[Snobal]

Hey waksupi...

Thanks again for the reminder that using softer bullets sometimes reduces leading. :drinks:

Shot 70 of the softer bullets yesterday (142.2 +/- .3 Gr.) and it really worked to reduce the leading.:-D

Got no leading in the bore of the 4" GP-100 and only very slight throat leading which came out with a couple of passes with a dry brass brush.:-D

Until I tried the softer alloy, I needed my Lewis Lead Remover to clean the throat area.

However, I was disappointed in the groups with this load. The wind was howling and I tried again and again and could not get a nice tight 25-yard group....:(

But after I gave up, I got to looking at the first target (the one on the bottom of the stack that caught all 29 rounds that I fired from a sandbag rest) and realized that 27 of 29 shots went into 2", c-t-c, and the total group size for the 29 shots was 2.8":)

I'd have to use a longer barrel than 4" to shoot much better than that with stock iron sights.:-D

The lube star was very heavy so I'll try a batch with only two of the three groves lubed and see if they group any better.:-D

Finally got around to trying the BBWC bullets with only two grooves lubed. Accuracy appeared to be the same as when all three grooves are lubed. The soot seemed to be exactly the same as with three grooves lubed. I did see some leading in the throat that did not come out with a quick dry brushing.

I plan to go back to lubing all three grooves because I can detect no difference in accuracy from lubing one, two, or all three grooves ---- and although the gun is really covered in "soot" after 100 rounds or so, it is easier to clean when all three grooves are lubed.

Thanks again for the help and suggestions.:drinks: