powder-through dies that are like Lyman 'M' die

[jmac2112]

Happy New Year! May it be even better than 2023....

I'm currently loading 9mm on a Dillon XL650 with a Mr. Bullet Feeder attachment. The powder funnel that comes with the bullet feeder is better than the Dillon funnel in that it creates a "ledge" for the bullet to sit on, just like a Lyman 'M' die or an NOE die. My only complaint is that I wish the expander part of the die was longer. Sometimes I load 147 grain bullets, and it's hard to avoid swaging the base without a good expander die. I used to use one, but now that I have the Mr. Bullet Feeder, there aren't enough stations on my press.

Anyway, does anyone know of a powder funnel/powder-through die that would fit the bill? Or has anyone tried modifying an existing funnel? Seems like it wouldn't be too hard with a lathe.

Thanks!

John

[G W Wade]

I bought one from Photo Escape. Available in .357 or .358 Uniqetex alsome sells a similar unit Happy New Year GW

[G W Wade]

Sorry! UniqueTek, Inc GW

[jmac2112]

Thanks! Looks like the one offered by UniqueTek for .357 or .358 is manufactured by Photo Escape also. There's also one offered by UniqueTek called "Custom Powder Funnel" that seems to be the same thing, only maybe it's for .355/.356 bullets (I'm just guessing since it doesn't say). In any case, thanks for the reply!

[jmac2112]

One more question. Looking at the picture of the UniqueTek/Photo Escape die, it looks to me like the expander part of the die is pretty short, and it's the larger diameter part that is much longer than usual (the part that creates the "ledge" for the bullet to sit on). I'm I interpreting that correctly? If so, that seems completely backwards.

Here is a link to this die on the Photo Escape site (much better picture):

https://www.photoescapeinc.com/products/9htc-ptu.html

[G W Wade]

No sure just how your looking at the picture, BUT the larger part you mentioned is the expander. The bell is at the start of the tapered section. GW

[jmac2112]

Maybe I have my terminology wrong. What I think of as the "expander" part of the die is the part that first enters the case and is a smaller diameter than the bullet (usually something like .353"). The second section that enters the case has a larger diameter than the bullet (around .357-.358) and forms a "ledge" that the bullet sits on before it is seated. Some dies of this type (Lyman 'M' die, for example) have a long "expander" section followed by a short second section. The Unique Tek die seems to do the opposite. Maybe I am misunderstanding its function, and it's not supposed to act like a 'M' die, but in that case I don't know why there are two visibly different sections.

I ran across another die that looks interesting and is configured the way I described above:

https://lousgunwork.com/M-Neck-Expander-Powder-Dies.html

[gloob]

https://www.photoescapeinc.com/products/powder-funnel-wadcutter38.html
Maybe one of these would work... after it is shortened to the length for your bullets with an angle grinder.

[jmac2112]

Interesting, thanks for the idea! Or maybe this will be my excuse for getting a lathe....

[jetinteriorguy]

On my 550 I use a Lee Pro Auto Disc in conjunction with NOE powder through expanders. For pistol loading it’s so easy and reliable, I just ream a cavity to drop the powder to the same amount of loads I’ve previously established. I use the same setup on my Lee turret press as well. I only load 9mm on the Dillon and .38sp, .357mag, and .41mag on the turret. I mark the custom sized discs and keep the appropriate disc in the bins of loaded ammo to keep them straight, but I always double check the disc with a scale every time I start to make sure I haven’t mixed them up.

[jmac2112]

I thought NOE stopped making the powder through expanders. I doubt that I could make those work with the current setup on my 650, but it's good to know they exist. Thanks!

[jetinteriorguy]

I thought NOE stopped making the powder through expanders. I doubt that I could make those work with the current setup on my 650, but it's good to know they exist. Thanks!
Apparently initially they had some issues to work out but now they have fixed whatever that was and are making them again. One issue I ran into was some of my older Lee powder through dies would not fit the NOE expanders, so I wound up ordering some die bodies from NOE. I’m assuming this may have been part of the initial problems. My recommendation to keep things simple is to just order the complete setup with the die from NOE, this will avoid any frustration and the money I would have saved on paying shipping on multiple orders would almost have paid the additional cost of the dies anyway.

[jmac2112]

By the way, I contacted Alex, the guy who makes the Photo Escape powder through expander, and got some clarification on how it is meant to be used. It's basically like the NOE powder through expander EXCEPT that the "second stage" (the larger diameter section) is really long. In other words, the bullet is going to sit way down in that expanded part of the case prior to seating, and when you seat the bullet you're only pushing it in about 1/32" (according to Alex). To me that seems backwards, but I've seen a number of positive reviews, so I went ahead and ordered one. I won't be able to bring myself to use it exactly as intended, however. 1/32" doesn't seem like enough to provide a reliable grip on the bullet, so I'll shoot for at least 1/16."

[pull the trigger]

Thanks for posting the photos escape link, just bought one as the Dillon unit sticks down a lot too. One of the reviews said it helped a lot. Can't wait to try it. Thanks again

[jmac2112]

No problem! Mine just arrived today, so I haven't tried it out. It seems to be the perfect length for typical 125 grain bullets. For longer bullets I would ideally like something that went further down.

[GWS]

These RCBS versions that fit in Uniflows and Hornady powder measures are what I use......work pretty dang well.

https://i.postimg.cc/J4TPfSmJ/Inked152982-LI.jpg

I believe the purpose is to stick 'em straight temporarily until the next progressive station to the seater, and the 1/16" has been plenty even for the long rifle bullets, I've used regular "M" dies for. (not powder-thru) RCBS include such regular dies in their tube rifle bullet feeders in .223 and .308 and they work super as well. Picture of the rifle tool below:

https://i.postimg.cc/3JNwHrkq/IMG-2811.jpg

You can see the "M" step on the expander (part on the far left)

[jmac2112]

Good to know, thanks!

[oley55]

No problem! Mine just arrived today, so I haven't tried it out. It seems to be the perfect length for typical 125 grain bullets. For longer bullets I would ideally like something that went further down.

Almost a month now do you have any feedback reports for us? Did you get the HTC version for cast n coated bullets? I am hoping these will work with my PC'd boolits.

[jmac2112]

Yep, I got the HTC version, and so far I am pleased with the results. As a bit of background, I was getting lousy accuracy with my 125 grain TC Blue Bullets (special order .356 diameter), with groups in the 4-4.5" range at 25 yards (benched). I was using the Mr. Bullet Feeder powder funnel on my Dillon powder measure. Using the Photo Escape die in the Dillon powder measure, I got groups averaging 2.5".

I've also been experimenting with using a .359 x .355 NOE expander plug (solid type), and the results have been exactly the same in terms of group size. The downside is that I have to expand as a separate step unless I want to get the new NOE powder-through plugs and use them with my Lee Auto Drum powder measure. The only real advantage there would be that the NOE plugs go deeper, so they would probably work better with longer bullets like 147 grain.

I still find it weird on the Photo Escape die that the first "stage" of the expander is about half as long as the second "stage." The first stage enters the case first and is the part that allows for tension to hold the bullet in place. It works all right for 125 grain bullets, but with anything shorter than that you'd have to be very careful not to insert the expander too deep for fear of ending up with no tension at all. I must be missing something, but I really think the length of the two stages should be reversed.

[oley55]

I've also been experimenting with using a .359 x .355 NOE expander plug (solid type), and the results have been exactly the same in terms of group size. The downside is that I have to expand as a separate step...

I have been using the .359x.355 NOE expanders as well but was hoping the Photo Escape .358" powder thru would eliminate the extra step/s.

[Leadmad]

https://lousgunwork.com/M-Neck-Expander-Powder-Dies.html

Im using these in my square deal B , both 357 and 45 auto

Cheers

[jmac2112]

Someone (maybe you) brought those to my attention a few weeks ago. That's the kind of thing I'm looking for, but I don't think he has any sizes that would work for .356.

[jmac2112]

oley55: For .356 diameter bullets, the Photo Escape die works only if you run it down far enough to flare the case slightly. This is tricky since I don't think the die is really made with flaring in mind, but it can be done. As you have probably discovered, you really need the "stage 2" diameter to be .359 to be able to seat .356 bullets without shaving (unless you flare).

I now have a toolhead set up with a Lee Auto Drum and the NOE (solid) expander die that I will use for small runs of bunny-fart ammo, just so I don't have to mess with my Dillon powder measure. I haven't decided yet whether to use the Photo Escape die with the Dillon powder measure or just keep using the Mr. Bullet Feeder die. The difference in accuracy is not a huge deal to me since I load jacketed bullets for my match ammo. By the way, the most accurate bullet I've found is the Precision Delta 124 gr. JHP (V1). I get an average group size of 1.6" at 25 yards (benched) with those bullets. I doubt that coated bullets can ever match that kind of accuracy, especially if they have beveled bases.

[jmac2112]

CORRECTION: It is easy to flare the case with the Photo Escape die. I was thinking of the NOE dies when I wrote that.

[gloob]

Lous 357 expander is 356x360. That's exactly perfect for 356 bullets, IMO. No need to go 1 thous smaller.

I use NOE 358x362 for my 358 bullets. NOE 452x456 for my 452 bullets. Custom 401x404 for my 401 bullets. Any smaller doesn't increase neck tension. Any bigger starts to decrease neck tension, but it's not significant until you get more than 1 thous over. I have loaded jacketed bullets that are 1 thous smaller than my expander plug without any issue. 2 thous over, and you have no tension at all.

The only reason I've experienced poor neck tension is from brass that is so thin at the mouth that the sizing die doesn't size it enough. And no matter how small your expander plug is (or if you don't expand at all), you still get the same poor neck tension. Unless some of your boolits randomly come out undersize, I don't see any safety issue of using an expander same size as the bullet, plus or minus half a thous.

[jmac2112]

Interesting! I have never tried to find the limit in order to preserve neck tension, but apparently there's more wiggle room than I thought.

Here's a question for you. In terms of doing a press-check to test for setback, have you ever noticed a difference if you wait a while before checking? I recently did a test run of about ten rounds using Blazer brass, which I've always found to be very soft/malleable. I press-checked a few rounds immediately afterwards and found that I could easily cause setback by pressing them into the bench with my thumb. I came back the next day and tried again, wondering if maybe I had just used too much force the first time. What I found was that I couldn't cause setback on ANY of the rounds, including the ones I had checked the day before, even when I put as much pressure as I could with my thumb. Surely the brass didn't continue to shrink around the bullets, right? Maybe some sort of chemical bond formed overnight. Weird. I use Hornady One Shot on my brass, in case that's significant.

[gloob]

Hadn't noticed that. I suppose that's one reason to seat bullets a little deeper before you try to pull them. I did my setback testing right away.

I also lightly lube brass on the inside if it's brand new or super clean. I have loaded 180 grain cast bullets into a brand new 10mm case expanded with my 401/404 expander, and it would not come back out with a kinetic puller. 10mm and 40SW have a lot of seating area on heavy bullets, to produce neck tension. I've had a tough time trying to pull 55 grain 223 bullets, but these relatively heavy bullets would simply not budge, at all.

Seating deeper didn't help. Couldn't pull them with a collet, either. I ended up drilling a hole in the nose of the bullets and inserting a wood screw, then pulled them in the press.

[hc18flyer]

I am looking at the Photo Escape .358 PTE die and spacer for my Dillon SDB press. I am mostly loading .358 rnfp(no lube groove) and swc in .38 Special. I also load some button nose wad cutters, not flush, but to the crimp groove. Deciding which expander to get? Thanks, hc18flyer

[djgoings]

I've been using a lousgunwork die for 357mag for a couple of years on my 650. I was curious as to the material used and finish. His reply was "12L14 steel then hard chromed". Took a little to get adjusted correctly, but very happy since then.

[jmac2112]

gloob: Just to follow up on what I said earlier, I tried another experiment. I have an NOE expander that is .360 x .356 (same dimensions as the Lou's funnel you recommended), and I tried loading up some dummy rounds using .356 diameter coated bullets and Blazer brass. As I said above, Blazer seems to be the softest brass out there, so it was ideal for my experiment. I was easily able to seat the bullets by pushing into my bench the way I would do a press check. I seated them to different lengths, though, ranging from about 1.080 to about 1.120. I feel confident that I could have pushed every single one of them much deeper without any problem. Anyway, I left them on my bench overnight, and when I came back this morning and did press checks, I couldn't get them to budge even a little bit using my thumb. Even when I pushed with the thumb and forefinger of my left hand in addition to my right thumb, there was no movement. I still don't know how to explain this, but it's definitely a fact. The upshot is that I will probably buy one of those funnels from Lou's. Thanks for the tip!

[oley55]

well I ordered some photoescape powder thru dies and expect them in the next few days. Looking forward to seeing how they will work for me.

jmac2112, reference Blazer Brass, I don't know whether they are softer or not. They do however have consistently thinner walls than most anything else out there. In fact last month Everglades was selling sorted 9mm and it was Blazer so I bought 4k. I see today their sorted 9mm is now Winchester.

[gloob]

gloob: Just to follow up on what I said earlier, I tried another experiment. I have an NOE expander that is .360 x .356 (same dimensions as the Lou's funnel you recommended), and I tried loading up some dummy rounds using .356 diameter coated bullets and Blazer brass. As I said above, Blazer seems to be the softest brass out there, so it was ideal for my experiment. I was easily able to seat the bullets by pushing into my bench the way I would do a press check. I seated them to different lengths, though, ranging from about 1.080 to about 1.120. I feel confident that I could have pushed every single one of them much deeper without any problem. Anyway, I left them on my bench overnight, and when I came back this morning and did press checks, I couldn't get them to budge even a little bit using my thumb. Even when I pushed with the thumb and forefinger of my left hand in addition to my right thumb, there was no movement. I still don't know how to explain this, but it's definitely a fact. The upshot is that I will probably buy one of those funnels from Lou's. Thanks for the tip!

Interesting. I wonder if you loaded cast or jacketed? The easier seating is expected. The case doesn't undergo any permanent deformation, because it's already the right size. So you don't need that extra force to seat. But the "bonding over time" is a little weird.

If there's bullet lube between the bullet and the case, there could be a little bit that is left between some parts of the bullet and the case. But after sitting for awhile, that micro amount of lube migrates out (out the front of the case mouth, out the back into the case, or into low spots like the air pockets in the lube grooves or into crimp groove). Kinda like when you epoxy two large and flat surfaces together and stick a weight on top. It might take several minutes or hours before the excess finishes oozing out the edges.

This gives me something to experiment with in the future. I would guess a TL'd bullet in a hard drying LLA might be the most dramatic in the way.

Maybe next time you have time to waste at the bench, you will try seating a bullet that is 1 thous smaller than your plug. I've done that in two calibers, and I was perfectly satisfied with the neck tension. I wouldn't load a large amount like this, simply because I like doing things right and can make or buy a new expander, but most of the change in neck tension seems to occur right at the end, where it drops off a cliff, between 1.5 and 2 thous.

[jmac2112]

oley55: I think you are right about the thinness of the brass. It's probably not any softer than most, but definitely thinner.

gloob: I did try the experiment you suggested, again using Blazer brass (because I know if it works with Blazer it will work with anything). I was able to seat the bullets using my thumb and index finger, and I let them sit overnight. I tested them today and they had no more tension than before. As a matter of fact, when I was checking their OAL with calipers prior to doing a press check, I found that I could press the bullets deeper just with the pressure from the calipers. So, with Blazer brass at least, I will need an expander no larger than the bullet size. Now I've got some Turkish brass (Turan) that would almost certainly work just fine using an expander .001 oversize! That's some tough stuff. Works great with jacketed bullets, but I don't usually use it much for lead. I'll have to do that experiment with some "regular" brass and see what happens (headstamps like Winchester, Federal, PMC, Speer all seem to be about the same).

[hc18flyer]

Today I ordered the Photo Escape .358 HTC powder thru expander for my Dillon SDB. I have been loading a NOE .358 no lube groove rnfp bullet in .38 Special. I noticed that it took more pressure to seat and considerable effort to remove the bullet with my kinetic puller, and I wasn't using much crimp. I did find out my inexpensive vernier caliper really isn't accurate enough for measuring bullets. I borrowed a micrometer to verify my Lee push-thru sizing. Caliper read .361, micrometer, just under .358! I will be acquiring a micrometer in the near future. Thanks to this thread, I think I have a better understanding of what is going on with neck tension on my SDB. hc18flyer

[jmac2112]

I bought this micrometer for $25 and have been pleased with it:

https://www.amazon.com/Anytime-Tools-MICROMETER-Precision-Machinist/dp/B0045VKF5K/ref=sr_1_2?crid=R9L6PIFRYHVP&keywords=anytime%2Btools%2Bmicrometer&qid=1707909750&sprefix=anytime%2Btools%2Caps%2C323&sr=8-2&th=1

Anytime Tools is supposedly an American company, for what that's worth. I was surprised to see that, especially since "Anytime Tools" sounds like a typical Chinese name for a company (sort of like "Whatever Tools").