44 mag and 454 casull

[castmiester]

The Rugers use the same platform for both, or just a larger bore for the 454 or a beefier frame/barrel ?

[contender1]

If my faded memory is correct,, I think the .480 & the .454 used a different stainless alloy for them over the normal production Blackhawks.

[DougGuy]

Carpenter Steel

[castmiester]

Just wondering how much more a 454 has in ballistics, velocity and energy verses a 44 mag.. how much more pressure too.

[Butler Ford]

This is from Underwood Ammo:

This ammo is for cartridge size .44 Remington Magnum.
The bullet is made from Lead.
The diameter (caliber) of this bullet is 0.429.
This bullet weighs 305 grains.
This bullet leaves the barrel at 1325 feet per second.
The ammo case is made from Nickel Plated Brass.
This ammo is a proven round for hunting.
The bullet in this product does contain lead.
This round is designed to be supersonic and travels faster than the speed of sound.
The muzzle energy of this ammo is 1189 ft lbs.


This ammo is for cartridge size .454 Casull.
The bullet is made from Lead.
The diameter (caliber) of this bullet is 0.452.
This bullet weighs 360 grains.
This bullet leaves the barrel at 1425 feet per second.
The ammo case is made from Nickel Plated Brass.
This ammo is a proven round for hunting.
The bullet in this product does contain lead.
This round is designed to be supersonic and travels faster than the speed of sound.
The muzzle energy of this ammo is 1623 ft lbs.

This is listed as handgun ammo. I use it in a carbine and get a little more velocity.

I don't shoot enough of it to justify reloading. Good stuff.

[DougGuy]

Just wondering how much more a 454 has in ballistics, velocity and energy verses a 44 mag.. how much more pressure too.

Go to Wikipedia and look up those two calibers you will find plenty of information.

[Thumbcocker]

Just wondering how much more a 454 has in ballistics, velocity and energy verses a 44 mag.. how much more pressure too.

Ballistics tables are easily located on line.

[castmiester]

I don't see a difference, yes. I sorry !

[Iwsbull]

The biggest difference is the steel they use not really something the naked eye sees but definitely a huge deal.

[castmiester]

difference from cartridge to cartridge. 340 to 360 in bullet weight and .003 diameter, side by side cases doesn't impress me.

But Wow.. there is a difference. 454 1813 Ft lbs. 300 grain bullet verse the 44 300 bullet 1041..

great day ! gotta be the powder.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Just wondering how much more a 454 has in ballistics, velocity and energy verses a 44 mag.. how much more pressure too.

Most sources use SAAMI specs...which is fine if you plan to buy factory ammo.

I tend to look at and study the Data in 'good' reloading manuals when I embark on such a quest.

[castmiester]

going there shortly

[jreidthompson1]

Reading info re the steel

https://www.carpentertechnology.com/blog/most-powerful-revolvers-get-lift-from-aerospace-alloys

Lists pressure, tensile strength, proof load pressures.

Sent from my SM-G781V using Tapatalk

[nicholst55]

The .454 Casull is listed as having both a 60,000 and 65,000 PSI max chamber pressure, depending on source. Some say that actual real-world ammo is loaded to 55,000 PSI. The .44 Magnum has a max chamber pressure of 35,000 PSI. The .480 Ruger has a max chamber pressure of 48,000 PSI.

[dtknowles]

Were Super Blackhawks cylinders always long enough for 454 Casull?

Tim

[Tatume]

Just wondering how much more a 454 has in ballistics, velocity and energy verses a 44 mag.. how much more pressure too.

I have both and prefer the 44 Rem Mag versus the 454 Casull.

[contender1]

Were Super Blackhawks cylinders always long enough for 454 Casull?

Tim



I do believe so. I'd have to get some measurements,, but I'm pretty sure they are.

[Tatume]

The 454 Casull case is only 0.098" (1/10") longer than the 44 Rem Mag and 45 Colt cases. The Blackhawk cylinder is sufficiently long.

[dtknowles]

The 454 Casull case is only 0.098" (1/10") longer than the 44 Rem Mag and 45 Colt cases. The Blackhawk cylinder is sufficiently long.

Am I correct that the original Super Blackhawk was only chambered in .44 Mag (and maybe .45 Colt)? Why would they make the cylinder longer than necessary? Is the cylinder on a Blackhawk a smaller diameter than the cylinder on a Super Blackhawk?

Tim

[DougGuy]

Am I correct that the original Super Blackhawk was only chambered in .44 Mag (and maybe .45 Colt)? Why would they make the cylinder longer than necessary? Is the cylinder on a Blackhawk a smaller diameter than the cylinder on a Super Blackhawk?

Tim

No, the cylinders are the same diameter and length. You can sometimes drop a 454 round into a 45 Colt cylinder but you wouldn't want to actually shoot it. Unless you just want to KB the gun with you holding it.

[Tatume]

Am I correct that the original Super Blackhawk was only chambered in .44 Mag (and maybe .45 Colt)? Why would they make the cylinder longer than necessary? Is the cylinder on a Blackhawk a smaller diameter than the cylinder on a Super Blackhawk?

Tim

The cylinders and frames of the New Model Blackhawk and New Model Super Blackhawk (44 Magnum) are basically the same except for name and chambering. As to why the cylinders are as long as they are, I don't know. I do know that performance will benefit from bullet molds that put more weight forward and are close to the maximum loaded cartridge length that will not interfere with cylinder rotation. This allows for greater powder capacity. Measured from the crimp groove to the nose, the length of bullets intended for the 454 Casull Super Blackhawk must be a little shorter, but the overall length of the cartridge can be the same.

Super Redhawk cylinders are a little bit longer. Mine measure 1.75" (44 Mag and 454 Casull) versus 1.72" for the Super Blackhawk (44 Mag and 45 Colt).

[dtknowles]

Things like this just make me wonder what the designer was thinking. Not saying there is no good reason for these cylinder lengths but it just is not obvious to me. I can't imagine it was so we reloaders could make ammo with longer than factory COAL. Your point is well taken that reloaders could take advantage of the extra cylinder length. With these guns the extra weight is not a problem.

Tim

[dtknowles]

With these long cylinders you could ream the .44's a bit deeper and create a new cartridge kind of a .44 Casull using shortened .444 Marlin brass.

[Tatume]

With these long cylinders you could ream the .44's a bit deeper and create a new cartridge kind of a .44 Casull using shortened .444 Marlin brass.

The main reason for lengthening the cartridge case is to assure that the cartridge cannot be chambered and fired in a shorter, inappropriate chamber. For example, to fire a 454 Casull cartridge in a gun designed for the 45 Colt would likely be catastrophic. Likewise, firing 357 Magnum cartridges in a S&W Model 10 revolver would be exciting.

Dick Casull did his initial load development using 45 Colt cases. He blew up some guns and realized that he needed a stronger case, not necessarily a longer one. But to safely market ammunition the cases had to be not interchangeable with 45 Colt, so the new, stronger case was also made longer.

Loading the 44 Magnum with bullets that have the crimp groove moved back has the same effect on powder capacity as lengthening the case and loading with bullets having shorter noses.

[Tatume]

Elgin Gates designed a Super Magnum line of cartridges, but they required purpose-made revolvers. The Dan Wesson company built guns for the Gates cartridges, and many silhouette shooters chambered for them in single-shot pistols. The 445 Supermag cartridge was 0.325" longer than the 44 Rem Mag.

[Sandspider500]

"Dick Casull did his initial load development using 45 Colt cases. He blew up some guns and realized that he needed a stronger case, not necessarily a longer one. But to safely market ammunition the cases had to be not interchangeable with 45 Colt, so the new, stronger case was also made longer."

That's not right. He started with SAA 45 colt 6 shot and was blowing those up. Then he fitted a 5 shot cylinder to a SAA colt and he blew those up. Then he made himself a larger framed SA with a much larger 5 shot cylinder and achieved his goal using 45 colt brass. With the earlier experiments the brass did not fail, the cylinder did.

[Three44s]

I skipped over the 454 Casaul and bought a 480 SRH to go with my 44s.

The reason being that I wanted a genuinely larger metplat/heavier boolit mass. Not that the 45 bore is anything to sneeze at though.

In 480, I saw a cartridge that delivers a most convincing blow while staying with mostly cast boolits in a frame size that need not be "wheeled around" on a cannon cartridge such as the S&W X-frame series or large series BFRs.

The 454 delivers convincing numbers but to do so, jacketed bullets are likely needed. I wanted to stick with cast for economy and self-sufficiency.

You can very definitely load the 454 down but in doing so, you give up significant horsepower.

My best luck with the 480 has been about 1 gr below book max with 400-420 gr PB cast boolits. Great extraction and great economy!

Three44s

[LeonardC]

I skipped over the 454 Casaul and bought a 480 SRH to go with my 44s.

The reason being that I wanted a genuinely larger metplat/heavier boolit mass. Not that the 45 bore is anything to sneeze at though.

In 480, I saw a cartridge that delivers a most convincing blow while staying with mostly cast boolits in a frame size that need not be "wheeled around" on a cannon cartridge such as the S&W X-frame series or large series BFRs.

The 454 delivers convincing numbers but to do so, jacketed bullets are likely needed. I wanted to stick with cast for economy and self-sufficiency.

You can very definitely load the 454 down but in doing so, you give up significant horsepower.

My best luck with the 480 has been about 1 gr below book max with 400-420 gr PB cast boolits. Great extraction and great economy!

Three44s

Great post! My 480 Ruger has never had a jacketed bullet in it.

[Ed K]

I skipped over the 454 Casaul and bought a 480 SRH to go with my 44s.

The reason being that I wanted a genuinely larger metplat/heavier boolit mass. Not that the 45 bore is anything to sneeze at though.

In 480, I saw a cartridge that delivers a most convincing blow while staying with mostly cast boolits in a frame size that need not be "wheeled around" on a cannon cartridge such as the S&W X-frame series or large series BFRs.

The 454 delivers convincing numbers but to do so, jacketed bullets are likely needed. I wanted to stick with cast for economy and self-sufficiency.

You can very definitely load the 454 down but in doing so, you give up significant horsepower.

My best luck with the 480 has been about 1 gr below book max with 400-420 gr PB cast boolits. Great extraction and great economy!

Three44s

Yes, good post but may I add: your point is taken on the extreme pressure of the SAAMI 454 Casull. However as this forum is a reloader/caster's paradise it is not out of place to consider options other than SAAMI pressure. For example most are not loading their pet 480 PB cast boolits to SAAMI 48Kpsi but rather loading them down (not to be confused with "weak").

As a cast boolit shooter I enjoy the 454 Casull as a 45 cal 44 magnum. Yes, Ruger-only 45 Colt level comes close but is not considered safe at real 35-40Kpsi magnum cartridge pressures. Note this useful range is still far short of SAAMI 454 Casull pressure, great for cast boolits and less abusive to the shooter. While not 480 performance it is quite a bit more than 44 magnum performance. This post is not intended to take away from your 480 talking points but to reason the 454 Casull can represent an appealing intermediate step between 44 magnum & Ruger 480 for the reloader.

As to "wasted potential", I do shoot and enjoy 45 Colt SAAMI pressure loads in a Ruger Flattop - not a Freedom Arms 454. There is a place for that kind of 45 use. I do not consider an accurate 300gr cast boolit @ 1400fps a waste. Forum posts for years have scolded me I can't do what I'm doing with my 454...