Alternatives to lead and other components

[ebb]

It looks as if the only thing even remotely close to a low enough melting temperature to cast bullets other than lead, would be zinc or aluminum. Am i missing another material that could work? I have seen some indication that some here have tried zinc, but no one screaming the benefits. I would be worried about removing zinc or aluminum form a fouled barrel. Swaging seems like an option but seems way to time consuming and expensive to get set up in. It looks to me like we will all need to be making primers, bullets and powder before too long if we are going to continue to shoot. I think that we need to as a group fund a coop to start making primers soon. If a corporation was formed and everybody from several of the shooting websites got together and chipped in 2 or 3 hundred $ each and started our own primer plant and we only bought primers from ourselves, we would be funding our sport instead of corporate wall street thieves. I am sorry about rambling but it looks like we are being pushed out of existence. Many are upset that a foreign firm is buying most of the ammo and component production in the USA, it remains to be seen if it will be good or bad.

[Dusty Bannister]

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?434393-Casting-Bismuth-Alloy&highlight=bismuth+cast+bullets

[ACC]

It looks as if the only thing even remotely close to a low enough melting temperature to cast bullets other than lead, would be zinc or aluminum. Am i missing another material that could work? I have seen some indication that some here have tried zinc, but no one screaming the benefits. I would be worried about removing zinc or aluminum form a fouled barrel. Swaging seems like an option but seems way to time consuming and expensive to get set up in. It looks to me like we will all need to be making primers, bullets and powder before too long if we are going to continue to shoot. I think that we need to as a group fund a coop to start making primers soon. If a corporation was formed and everybody from several of the shooting websites got together and chipped in 2 or 3 hundred $ each and started our own primer plant and we only bought primers from ourselves, we would be funding our sport instead of corporate wall street thieves. I am sorry about rambling but it looks like we are being pushed out of existence. Many are upset that a foreign firm is buying most of the ammo and component production in the USA, it remains to be seen if it will be good or bad.

If you use any metal besides a lead alloy and you are using a Lee product to do it, it voids the warranty. Found out the hard way.
ACC

[fredj338]

Babbit maybe. Zinc requires quite a high temp to pour well. Lead based alloys are where its at. Pretty easy to find lead based alloy, berms at an outdoor range.

[405grain]

A much easier method: Become one of the Wall Street Thieves and then you'll be able to afford reloading components at the expense of the peasants. But, remember not to light your cigars at the loading bench with $100 bills because of the fire danger. Sarcasm aside, the best time proven method to avoid supply shortages is, when components are available, buy cheap and stack deep. Shortages go in cycles; the foreign conflicts where the US is supplying the munitions won't last forever, and bumbling executive branches of the Federal Govt. don't last either. When the supply returns stock up, because there will always be another shortage later.

[Winger Ed.]

A lot of folks have already switched over to Zinc.
There's a few youtube videos of guys doing it, and telling how.

The plus of Zinc is that although it only weighs about 60% of Lead from the same mold,
you can push them on up to jacketed speeds, and they might not need lube or powder coat.

[THE_ANTIDOTE]

I cast my bullets with Babbitt although it only takes a small amount so still require lead. Babbitt mix though is tricky to make flow consistently through a bottom pour pot.

[deces]

Hold on to those zinc wheel weights.


https://youtu.be/vyPXMW0dMPY

[dondiego]

There is so much lead out there.........why?

[THE_ANTIDOTE]

I casted with zinc and it was okay, but the babbitt is slick as snot...just keep it hot and pour it fast.

[deces]

There is so much lead out there.........why?

Very high ballistic coefficient to weight ratio.

[mnewcomb59]

Well the BC on a cast zinc bullet is much worse than if it was cast out of lead. The zinc bullet is cutting the same size hole through the air and it only weighs 60% what the lead bullet does. Then factor in that you are probably shooting it faster than the lead because it is lighter, and know that BC decreases with velocity. So unless you have some hard numbers from a lab radar I would assume a .25 BC bullet in lead would only have about a .15 BC or less in zinc.

A 200 grain bullet mold would make about a 120 grain bullet in zinc. A 120 grain lead bullet would have a better BC than a 120 grain zinc bullet if they had the same ogive because the lead bullet has much less surface area and length.

[dtknowles]

Well the BC on a cast zinc bullet is much worse than if it was cast out of lead. The zinc bullet is cutting the same size hole through the air and it only weighs 60% what the lead bullet does. Then factor in that you are probably shooting it faster than the lead because it is lighter, and know that BC decreases with velocity. So unless you have some hard numbers from a lab radar I would assume a .25 BC bullet in lead would only have about a .15 BC or less in zinc.

A 200 grain bullet mold would make about a 120 grain bullet in zinc. A 120 grain lead bullet would have a better BC than a 120 grain zinc bullet if they had the same ogive because the lead bullet has much less surface area and length.

Some of this is not quite right but the sense of it is correct. Check you aerodynamics texts regarding length over diameter for lowest drag. Optimum L/D is 3 for subsonic and goes up with mach number. No, a 125 gr. lead bullet will not have a higher BC than a 125 gr. zinc bullet. Your assumption that greater surface area means greater drag is flawed. Until you exceed an L/D of three, longer is better drag wise.

Of course we have twist rate and powder volume drawbacks of longer bullets.

We have monolithic copper alloy bullets and you don't hear people complaining about low BC for those bullets.

People who love big meplats or giant hollow points don't worry about BC either.

Terminal ballistics for zinc bullets needs more exploration if they are going to be used for hunting or self-defense.

Tim

[dtknowles]

Do people alloy their zinc for casting bullets? What might make it fill out better?

[Winger Ed.]

Do people alloy their zinc for casting bullets? What might make it fill out better?

I've been led to believe it's used as pure as what the modern generation wheel weights are made from.

Nobody has mentioned fill out problems from what I've found.
It may be pretty 'thin' and have a good flow/fill out just as it is when melted.
However, you will need certain type pots and heat sources to get the heat on up and handle it properly.
(Propane burners, Iron, Stainless Steel)

Depending on where ya are, as Lead dries up, it is the future of casting.
If you get off into it, I'd sure encourage doing a fair amount of research,
and go to a few classes given by Professor youtube.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Do people alloy their zinc for casting bullets? What might make it fill out better?

I haven't seen anyone use pure zinc for casting bullets, they use the alloy that WW's are diecast from, typically ZAMAK 3. Which contains about 3% aluminum and a fraction of a percent of Copper. Tin and Zinc get along well together in a alloy. So those would be the first things I'd use to try and modify a ZAMAK 3 or other Zinc Alloy with.

https://www.dynacast.com/en/knowledge-center/material-information/zinc-casting-metals/zamak-3

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

SNIP>>>

Am i missing another material that could work? .
I would use the Lead-free alloy that Rotometals sell.

https://www.artfulbullet.com/index.php?threads/casting-with-rotometals-lead-free-alloy.5627/

[mnewcomb59]

We have monolithic copper alloy bullets and you don't hear people complaining about low BC for those bullets.



Tim

Tim you are misunderstanding me. You have one bullet mold. Two metals. The lower density metal will make lower BC bullets than the higher density metal.


Now we have two different molds that cast the same weight bullet in different metals. If they had the same ogive, like I said above, the denser bullet will always have a better BC. The additional length of bearing surface on low density bullets will always cause more drag than a denser, shorter bullet with the same ogive.

For light-for-caliber bullets, if you lengthen the ogive on the less dense bullet and add a boat tail it can be more aerodynamic than the flat base lead core bullet, which is obvious. However, I am talking about keeping the same ogive and base, but lengthening the bearing surface to make the low density bullet have equal weight to the high density bullet. In this situation, with equal weight, equal ogive, equal base bullets, the longer bullet will have a lower BC.

Lube grooves and pressure reducing grooves like old barnes had dramatically lowers BC. A longer bullet mold to cast a 150 grain zinc bullet will likely have more lube grooves than a shorter bullet mold that casts a 150 grain lead bullet. Even if they were smooth sided, the bearing surface of spitzer bullets causes aerodynamic drag because the air rides in a laminar flow along the whole ogive and bearing surface. The turbulent flow around a flat point causes the air to not interact as much with the bearing surface and lube grooves but even still if you increase bearing surface without increasing weight the BC goes down.

A tungsten bullet in the size and shape of a 308 110 VMAX would weigh about 187 grains. Keep that same VMAX ogive and base, now make a 187 grain zinc bullet. The zinc would be 1.75 inches long in a mold that would make a 315 grain 308 bullet in lead. The tungsten bullet will be far more aerodynamic.

Barnes TTSX bullets can only approach lead core bullets in BC when the bullet weights are low for caliber and the extra length goes into a boat tail and longer ogive. Once you have enough lead in a given caliber to get a long ogive and efficient boat tail, copper can't keep up. Sure a 125 copper 308 can be a more aerodynamic shape than a 125 flat base stubby ogive lead bullet. In any equal weight bullets with identical ogives and boat tails, the BC is worse in copper.

[20:1]

Babbit maybe. Zinc requires quite a high temp to pour well. Lead based alloys are where its at. Pretty easy to find lead based alloy, berms at an outdoor range.

I tried babbit several years ago. The bullet noses broke off at the taper crimp line when feeding from the magazine.

[dtknowles]

Tim you are misunderstanding me. You have one bullet mold. Two metals. The lower density metal will make lower BC bullets than the higher density metal.


Now we have two different molds that cast the same weight bullet in different metals. If they had the same ogive, like I said above, the denser bullet will always have a better BC. The additional length of bearing surface on low density bullets will always cause more drag than a denser, shorter bullet with the same ogive.

For light-for-caliber bullets, if you lengthen the ogive on the less dense bullet and add a boat tail it can be more aerodynamic than the flat base lead core bullet, which is obvious. However, I am talking about keeping the same ogive and base, but lengthening the bearing surface to make the low density bullet have equal weight to the high density bullet. In this situation, with equal weight, equal ogive, equal base bullets, the longer bullet will have a lower BC.

Lube grooves and pressure reducing grooves like old barnes had dramatically lowers BC. A longer bullet mold to cast a 150 grain zinc bullet will likely have more lube grooves than a shorter bullet mold that casts a 150 grain lead bullet. Even if they were smooth sided, the bearing surface of spitzer bullets causes aerodynamic drag because the air rides in a laminar flow along the whole ogive and bearing surface. The turbulent flow around a flat point causes the air to not interact as much with the bearing surface and lube grooves but even still if you increase bearing surface without increasing weight the BC goes down.

A tungsten bullet in the size and shape of a 308 110 VMAX would weigh about 187 grains. Keep that same VMAX ogive and base, now make a 187 grain zinc bullet. The zinc would be 1.75 inches long in a mold that would make a 315 grain 308 bullet in lead. The tungsten bullet will be far more aerodynamic.

Barnes TTSX bullets can only approach lead core bullets in BC when the bullet weights are low for caliber and the extra length goes into a boat tail and longer ogive. Once you have enough lead in a given caliber to get a long ogive and efficient boat tail, copper can't keep up. Sure a 125 copper 308 can be a more aerodynamic shape than a 125 flat base stubby ogive lead bullet. In any equal weight bullets with identical ogives and boat tails, the BC is worse in copper.

Agreed, if you have one bullet mold. Two metals. The lower density metal will make lower BC bullets than the higher density metal.

This is will not always be true - "different molds that cast the same weight bullet in different metals. If they had the same ogive, like I said above, the denser bullet will always have a better BC. The additional length of bearing surface on low density bullets will always cause more drag than a denser, shorter bullet with the same ogive." I have run models in a wind tunnel and lengthening the projectile reduced the drag up until the L/D exceeded 3. What you claim only is valid if the denser bullet is not short also if you are going to have a longer bullet why not choose a more optimal shape instead of just using the short bullet's blunt ogive and why not add a boattail.

Why would "A longer bullet mold to cast a 150 grain zinc bullet will likely have more lube grooves than a shorter bullet mold that casts a 150 grain lead bullet." The zinc bullet mould does not even need lube grooves, zinc bullets don't need lube. I expect that you are speaking of using traditional moulds designed for lead and not moulds that don't have grooves like some use with powder coat or paper patch. I also would be easy to modify lube groove molds to eliminate or make the grooves shallower. Could use a design like the Lee Tumble Lube bullets.

Now if we are talking about BC we must be thinking about bullets for longer range shooting. Shooting targets at ranges less than 100 yards the BC almost does not matter.

Zinc pistol bullets I think the biggest issue is going to be powder volume. Some pistol cases have very limited case volume so you will not be able to use slower powders and have factory type velocities.

Clearly lead is better but in some cases the difference will not matter, zinc bullets will work fine and should be cheaper. Not sure why the manufactures don't use them is some ammo.

Tim

[dtknowles]

I would use the Lead-free alloy that Rotometals sell.

https://www.artfulbullet.com/index.php?threads/casting-with-rotometals-lead-free-alloy.5627/

Did you read the link, they suggest you wait at least 20 seconds and up to as much as 3 minutes between casting and cutting the sprue. You are going to need multiple moulds to get any reasonable production rate.

Tim

[mnewcomb59]

Agreed, if you have one bullet mold. Two metals. The lower density metal will make lower BC bullets than the higher density metal.

This is will not always be true - "different molds that cast the same weight bullet in different metals. If they had the same ogive, like I said above, the denser bullet will always have a better BC. The additional length of bearing surface on low density bullets will always cause more drag than a denser, shorter bullet with the same ogive." I have run models in a wind tunnel and lengthening the projectile reduced the drag up until the L/D exceeded 3. What you claim only is valid if the denser bullet is not short also if you are going to have a longer bullet why not choose a more optimal shape instead of just using the short bullet's blunt ogive and why not add a boattail.

Why would "A longer bullet mold to cast a 150 grain zinc bullet will likely have more lube grooves than a shorter bullet mold that casts a 150 grain lead bullet." The zinc bullet mould does not even need lube grooves, zinc bullets don't need lube. I expect that you are speaking of using traditional moulds designed for lead and not moulds that don't have grooves like some use with powder coat or paper patch. I also would be easy to modify lube groove molds to eliminate or make the grooves shallower. Could use a design like the Lee Tumble Lube bullets.

Now if we are talking about BC we must be thinking about bullets for longer range shooting. Shooting targets at ranges less than 100 yards the BC almost does not matter.

Zinc pistol bullets I think the biggest issue is going to be powder volume. Some pistol cases have very limited case volume so you will not be able to use slower powders and have factory type velocities.

Clearly lead is better but in some cases the difference will not matter, zinc bullets will work fine and should be cheaper. Not sure why the manufactures don't use them is some ammo.

Tim

Tim try this thought experiment. Design your most aerodynamic bullet possible with your 3:1 ratio, efficient ogive and efficient boat tail in your densest metal. Once you have enough metal for the efficient shape at the desired diameter, then start changing bearing length so your zinc bullet is the same weight but keep the good ogive and boat tail. Remeber there are magazine length restrictions and action length restrictions, so you can't just indefinitely increase the COAL.

You will find that YES, a zinc bullet can be more aerodynamic than a lead round ball of equal weight, but once your lead bullet is heavy-enough-for-caliber to make an efficient shape, no other metal with lower density can match the BC.

[dtknowles]

Tim try this thought experiment. Design your most aerodynamic bullet possible with your 3:1 ratio, efficient ogive and efficient boat tail in your densest metal. Once you have enough metal for the efficient shape at the desired diameter, then start changing bearing length so your zinc bullet is the same weight but keep the good ogive and boat tail. Remeber there are magazine length restrictions and action length restrictions, so you can't just indefinitely increase the COAL.

You will find that YES, a zinc bullet can be more aerodynamic than a lead round ball of equal weight, but once your lead bullet is heavy-enough-for-caliber to make an efficient shape, no other metal with lower density can match the BC.

So, there you go, you answered the question. The low density of zinc or copper start being a penalty on BC when your bullet gets to the "heavy-enough-for-caliber" limit.

Best to stick with lead core copper jacketed bullets if you are that concerned about BC. Clearly heavy for caliber zinc bullets would be too long causing a number of problems. Twist rate comes to mind along with COAL and bullets taking up too much powder volume. Monolithic copper bullets already have some of these problems along with cost. Copper is more expensive than lead or zinc.

Cast lead bullets with boattails and long ogives are not often seen, cast lead bullets are most often used at lower velocities again where BC is not much thought about. In a lot of applications cast zinc bullets could be substituted for cast lead bullets with a savings if the zinc bullets were available.

In some cartridges we could see a performance improvement where you approach velocities that are too much for lead bullets but the zinc bullets can tolerate. Other cases where we would be inclined to use a gas checked bullet we could get away with a plain base bullet if it was cast from zinc.

Yes, many times a lead bullet will be best and blasphamy but Jacketed bullets would be even better.

Tim

[mike_kaleigh]

Don't forget about bismuth alloy (cant use pure). Close to the same temp as lead. But you better have deep pockets.

I believe lead will dry up someday, or at least be banded from shooting. even though I have literal tons of lead, I have started collecting zinc, have maybe 40 lbs of ingots. lucky for me I can get it from work (I also get a lot of lead from work, remodeling xray rooms), I am an electrician and a lot if parts are die cast and I keep all the demo and stuff they are going to throw away.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Did you read the link, they suggest you wait at least 20 seconds and up to as much as 3 minutes between casting and cutting the sprue. You are going to need multiple moulds to get any reasonable production rate.

Tim
I have read through it, more than once, I may have even participated in the discussion. If a situation arises where myself and others need to go this route, no doubt we'll come up with tips, hints, and tricks to make it easier than this first experiment...and maybe some alloy that's even better?

[ebb]

I didn't want to start a storm. Lead is already banned in California, and if the Biden group ever figures it out they will ban lead, and get us casters and jacketed bullets with one bill. The guy that owns Wilson combat is making bullets and has decided that he is going to avoid the rush and makes only solid copper. The reason i started this was not to jump on lead, it was to find ways to shoot when everything we use to reload with is banned, or priced out of reason. Rest assured they will never get all the guns too many orphans with no paper trail. but they will regulate every aspect of it till we can't shoot. Just looking for a way to avoid the shortages.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

SNIP>>>

I didn't want to start a storm. Lead is already banned in California
Not a storm. I follow State of Minnesota politics pretty close...Land of Liberals, much like CA and NY.
The politicians here have talked about lead bans for hunting ammo. They may have Federal Cartridge talked into it, Federal is "kind of" a Minnesota company. It probably won't be long before it happens.

[Magnum0710]

There's a company called Rotometals that makes a casting substitute out of Bismuth. I think it's like $25 an ingot and you can get it on Amazon. I have no experience with it but found it interesting. Not sure what else is in it or if it requires anything to be added during the casting process but might come in handy. I believe they developed it for people in states that ban lead bullets for hunting.

[Winger Ed.]

There's a company called Rotometals that makes a casting substitute out of Bismuth. I think it's like $25 an ingot and you can get it on Amazon.

They are a sponsor for the site.
Their ad & link is at the top of the page.

[Kestrel4k]

My hat is off to the folks who are blazing the trail for zinc bullets; the knowledge base they are creating will end up serving the rest of us well.
Just like gas & oil (of which there is plenty of), lead is on it's way out politically - despite ample domestic reserves.

Good arguments have been made re: case capacities; I can imagine dwindling supplies of "our" lead being used for say, 9mm; while Zinc should be an excellent candidate for 38Spl & 44Mag, that sort of thing.

Being a metallurgist, I do appreciate these discussions & find them interesting.

[ebb]

I was thinking zinc might be good for higher velocity rifles???

[dtknowles]

If I had zinc boolits I would shoot them. I am thinking of making some, just thinking because I have to cast many lead ones first, my supply of cast bullets is getting low. I have been slacking. I went to load some 32 S&W today and I only had a little more than 100 bullets and they were not sized or lubed. I got to work and have those couple boxes of ammo but now no bullets.
Tim

[Texas by God]

New Year’s Resolution:
Get (buy,barter) a bunch of lead.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ebb]

^^^^^^^ that statement is the beginning of a very deep rabbit hole. Then when you smelt it you will say "Oh one ingot mold slows me down too much, I'll get 2 or 3 more so i don't have to wait." What am I going to do with all this lead, I should buy or make some boxes so it isn't all over the shop floor." Now that I have all this lead i need a bunch of other metals to make alloys. Now that I have all this lead I should buy some more molds and cast for other calibers. Wait if I do that I need a bigger furnace. wait if I make all these bullets tumble lube won't do I need to powder coat or maybe a lube sizer. Wait back to the smelting I need a bigger smelting pot with a bottom pour. Wait I need?????? IT WILL NEVER END, some sanity will return and maybe slow it down, but not by much. You will be assimilated! sorry that is wrong. You HAVE been assimilated!!!

[Castingcoot]

Yep got sucked back own that rabbit hole..

[dverna]

New Year’s Resolution:
Get (buy,barter) a bunch of lead.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The most useful post on this thread.

Lead is plentiful and cheap...cheap being a relative word. Now is the time to stock up. Lead does not go bad.

If you are relatively young, there is plenty of time to let others work out the alloy, molds, and processes needed to make bullets from other materials. Unless you enjoy doing stuff like that, let others make the mistakes and do the hard work.

If you are old, it is unlikely lead will be banned in your lifetime. You have even less incentive to go down a rabbit hole unless you enjoy those kinds of journeys.

I use jacketed bullets for SD and hunting. If lead bullets were banned, I would use solid copper bullets for hunting. Lead bullets are still legal for target shooting in CA; they are only banned for hunting. Think about that! Just how many critters to you kill a year that makes this a big deal?

I believe in being prepared but I weigh the risk/rewards. I cannot think of one good reason to waste time and resources preparing to use zinc, or some rather expensive alloy, to replace lead for 99% of the shooting we do...targets and steel. Even if someone needed to kill 100 critters a year, that is $100 of copper bullets.

Most of us want the cheapest bullets of decent quality we can get. Nothing beats cast lead bullets. Stay with what you know, save money and have fun.

[charlie b]

Two alternatives for me.

1) Buy a pallet or two of lead.

2) Buy a couple tons of copper rod and a small lathe to make my own copper bullets.

PS I'll never do either one. Over 70. Gov't will not do anything. They just like to make noise to gain votes. FFS, they can't even decide on pistol braces.

[P Flados]

For serious work (SD, big game hunting), existing jacketed or solid copper bullets are usually "worth the price".

On the other hand a huge volume of ammo is fired on a regular basis where the bullet could easily be a less expensive material.

When I go to my local indoor range, I see 380, 9mm, 40mm & 45 ACP being used in large quantities to make holes in paper at a distance of 10 yards or less. A good bit of the ammo used is either made by smaller outfits (all of those weird headstamps) or assembled by commercial reloaders. It is simply cost driving this. Zinc bullets would do this job just fine.

If I am selling junk metal to the scrapyard, lead will get me say 3x the price of zinc. However, if I go to Rotometals to buy ingots, the cost of zinc is higher than the cost of lead.

At a "small shop" commercial level, cast zinc bullets would only make sense if there is a real cost saving in material. For the specific application of cheap bullets for "range ammo", using a specific alloy is not really needed. Any zinc alloy that does reasonable fill out would work.

So lets say a commercial bullet caster finds a good source of scrap zinc (waste metal from a specific factory for example) and has a connection with a commercial reloader that is willing to introduce a line of "cheaper than ever" range ammo. For both of these guys, the zinc bullet stuff is just a "side stream" activity where the volume is just enough to take advantage of the cheap scrap zinc.

Making the cast zinc bullets would involve less material cost, no need for any coating / lube and be easier for handling / shipping. However, there would likely be small increase in "tooling costs" as molds probably would not last as long and there might be a small increase in cost associated with energy usage. Still there is an overall cost saving and this line of cheap zinc bullet range ammo goes into production.

The emotional side of ammo selection for the average guy is what it is. The cheap zinc bullet 9mm range ammo gets marketed to gun ranges at a lower price than anything else. Some would be willing to try it. If it works well, it would continue to sell.

And then suddenly, a California county with a big town finds out that cheap lead free range ammo is available. They get influenced by an "anti lead" advocate preaching against both lead bullets and lead based primers. So this county decides to levy and "environmental hazard tax" of $0.25 per round to fire anything that is not 100% lead free at all shooting ranges.

The above (or something similar) may never happen, but do not be surprised if it does.