The Book of Life

[dverna]

I do not understand why there is a Book of Life.

The Book of Life is a record written by God before the creation of the world, listing who will live forever in the kingdom of heaven. God knew before the world was created who would be saved and who would suffer eternal damnation.

It seems He knew who would accept Jesus and who would not.

What about "free will"? Has our decision to accept Christ been pre-ordained or pre-destined? Did God know what we would choose before we made a choice? But that is another rabbit hole for another thread.

More interesting is why God would need a book. He knows everything. Why does he need to look this up in a book when Judgement Day happens?

[ebb]

I read in the Bible in different places that there are thigs that He says and does that we are not going to understand. This may be one of those things. Maybe the book is for us maybe for unbelievers, maybe for satan. If this was important to you or my salvation HE would make it clear. Now that I have typed this spell check wants me to capitalize satan's name. NOT GOING TO DO IT, NOT EVER

[elmacgyver0]

So, this is in God's own handwriting written on some kind of indestructible material?
I don't understand.

[AnthonyB]

Very timely discussion because my wife asked me this morning when a persons name was written in the Book of Life. I didn't know the answer, but she asks me these questions because I used to be a believer and very religious. Odd that this one should show up today from two different places!
Tony

[Der Gebirgsjager]

I generally try to steer clear of these conversations, because my beliefs are different from many and I feel no need to justify them.
However, there is truly a Book of Life. If it doesn't exist, why is it mentioned? All of the dead, great and small, will stand before the Lord for judgment. On the Judgment Day the Book is opened and those who's names are found there-in are covered by salvation. There is an unforgiveable sin, blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, and therefore if one is once saved, but blasphemes, their name can be crossed out. Yes, it is true that "I knew thee from before the womb" and that God the Father and Jesus Christ can know what is to come (our destiny), but it is also true that we are free agents, given a will of our own, subject to the influences of the world and Satan, and that we may accept or reject salvation. Once saved, a person's name is entered into the book. Those who's names are not found in the Book will be dragged kicking and screaming to the edge of the pit by two large and burly angels and tossed in. The Good News is that those not found in the Book will be given a second chance to believe, and it's hard to imagine that very many will not do so under the circumstances, with the Christ visible before them on his throne. My beliefs, maybe not yours, but soundly based in The Revelation to St. John.

DG

[Hogtamer]

When I have these questions I defer to Paul, 1st Corinthians 13, verse 12. At best my insight into Spiritual matters is cloudy. One day when I meet Christ face to face I will “know as I am known.” On that day I will be a cosmic know-it-all!

[.429&H110]

Many people are making Revelation what they want it to be.
Looks like a nuclear war, to me...

I am a Christian based in Gospel
To be Saved:
What did Jesus say?
Do it.

Really is that simple. The world wants to make it complicated.
"none are righteous, no not one", said Paul. But we can try.
And accept Christ for who He Is.

[Alabama358]

I do not understand why there is a Book of Life.

The Book of Life is a record written by God before the creation of the world, listing who will live forever in the kingdom of heaven. God knew before the world was created who would be saved and who would suffer eternal damnation.

It seems He knew who would accept Jesus and who would not.

What about "free will"? Has our decision to accept Christ been pre-ordained or pre-destined? Did God know what we would choose before we made a choice? But that is another rabbit hole for another thread.

More interesting is why God would need a book. He knows everything. Why does he need to look this up in a book when Judgement Day happens?


Below are my thoughts on this subject from a post earlier this year...
EVERYONE is written in from the foundation of the world. I don't see any scripture (please correct me if I am wrong) that says do this that or the other and you get written in to the Book of Life



This is what I think and why I think it is important?

I have heard it preached that one needs to get Saved so that they can have their name written in The Lambs Book. This has always bothered me because I don’t really see any scripture to support this doctrine.

Indeed, people who are saved have their names in the book… but, when was it written in? The only time line that is referenced in scripture is “From the foundation of the world”
On the contrary there is plenty of scripture written with regards to either being blotted out or not being blotted out and remaining in. but nothing saying do this, that or the other and get written in.

So, with that in mind, my personal doctrine is that every human spirit (which is created in GOD’s image) is written in the Lamb’s book “From the Foundation of the world” even to include a child in the mother’s womb. A person has to reject the LORD in order to be blotted out.

Reject The LORD – Will be Blotted Out
Believe on The LORD – Will NOT be Blotted out (not written in just sealed until the day of redemption, see Ephesians 4:30)

Why is it important? Major doctrines hinge on this very issue… for Example
Salvation. If it takes you being born again (Saved) to have your name written in the Book, then that would mean that your Salvation would not be secure.
Stated differently, you could lose your salvation and be blotted out of the Book of Life

I submit that ALL names are written in The Lambs Book of Life from the beginning and when a person gets born again that ink is sealed until the day of redemption and cannot be blotted out.


(Scripture that references either those who have been blotted out or will not blot out)

Revelation 3:5 - He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Exodus 32:33 - And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

Psalms 69:28 - Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.

Exodus 32:33 - And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.


Revelation 13:8 - And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Revelation 21:27 - And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Revelation 20:15 - And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Luke 10:20 - Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

Revelation 17:8 - The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

[Ickisrulz]

The Bible uses human terms and ideas to help us relate to God. These ideas are not intended to be taken literally.

God does not actually keep records in a book (or scroll) the way people do. God does not sit on a throne like an earthly king. Along the same lines, God does not have wings and feathers as he has been described in the Bible.

The ideas intended by the examples above are that God keeps track of human activities and knows those who are his. He is the sovereign ruler of the universe. He cares for his people like the best examples of motherhood on earth.

[Alabama358]

The Bible uses human terms and ideas to help us relate to God. These ideas are not intended to be taken literally.

God does not actually keep records in a book (or scroll) the way people do. God does not sit on a throne like an earthly king. Along the same lines, God does not have wings and feathers as he has been described in the Bible.

The ideas intended by the examples above are that God keeps track of human activities and knows those who are his. He is the sovereign ruler of the universe. He cares for his people like the best examples of motherhood on earth.

Those are very definitive and Bold Statements as if they were facts...

Was this a personal revelation from the Lord himself to you or just your opinion on the matter?

Saying that the Bible "was not intended to be taken literally" seems a bit thin without any explanation.

[Ickisrulz]

Those are very definitive and Bold Statements as if they were facts...

Was this a personal revelation from the Lord himself to you or just your opinion on the matter?

Saying that the Bible "was not intended to be taken literally" seems a bit thin without any explanation.

Some parts of the Bible are intended to be taken literally. Other parts are not. It is important to learn how to interpret Scripture so we don't get the wrong idea about things.

The original audiences/readers of the sacred writings would never have believed God was actually writing everything down to keep track of things or that he was sitting in a physical chair. Thrones and bookkeeping are human inventions. I don't think the idea that God does not have feathers and wings needs to be explained.

No, this information was not a direct revelation from God to me. It is not only my educated opinion, but the opinion of countless biblical scholars and Christians who understand the various methods used by the writers of the Bible to get truth across to those that need to hear it.

[1hole]

There is a lot of honest confusion about the coming "Judgement Day" because it has been so poorly taught. Fact is, our eternal destination will be immediately established at the moment of death to our mortal bodies (John 3:16-17); our sins have been atoned for by Lord Jesus so no further judgement about our salvation is required.

Fact is, the Judgement Seat of Christ (the Bema Seat) will only be held to dispense awards for works done in this life.

Then, the final Judgement Day of the Great White Throne will only be for sentencing the lost, i.e., how hot a seat in hell they will get for evil works in this life.

Beyond that, I feel that the Book of Life itself is likely a very real document but seeking to learn unknowable details about how-when-why our names get into and removed from that Book is, at best, mildly interesting trivia. :)

[ioon44]

There is a lot of honest confusion about the coming "Judgement Day" because it has been so poorly taught. Fact is, our eternal destination will be immediately established at the moment of death to our mortal bodies (John 3:16-17); our sins have been atoned for by Lord Jesus so no further judgement about our salvation is required.

Fact is, the Judgement Seat of Christ (the Bema Seat) will only be held to dispense awards for works done in this life.

Then, the final Judgement Day of the Great White Throne will only be for sentencing the lost, i.e., how hot a seat in hell they will get for evil works in this life.

Beyond that, I feel that the Book of Life itself is likely a very real document but seeking to learn unknowable details about how-when-why our names get into and removed from that Book is, at best, mildly interesting trivia. :)

The Book of life is in both New Testament and Old Testament, I agree with your post.

We all need to draw closer to Jesus, He is the only way we make the Book of Life.

John 14:6
New King James Version
6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

[fixit]

One thing to note is that the Bible is largely a legal document, a testament, of God's promises to humanity, and how He will deal with humanity and it's actions, both good and bad. As such, there is a need for documentation concerning the reasoning for the sentencing, or lack thereof. It is warned that there will no one with excuse at the final judgement, as all our actions are known. If we do not stand with our Savior, we will have no standing at all!

[phantom22]

What about "free will"? Has our decision to accept Christ been pre-ordained or pre-destined? Did God know what we would choose before we made a choice? But that is another rabbit hole for another thread.



I always get a laugh out of the "Free Will" idea. You are free to choose, but if you don't choose me then I will condemn you to eternal suffering. Sounds more like an abusive relationship to me. It's the kind of thing a narcissist would say to manipulate someone in a relationship. Maybe even the kind of thing people in power would invent to manipulate the populace via hearts and minds.

[phantom22]

Some parts of the Bible are intended to be taken literally. Other parts are not. It is important to learn how to interpret Scripture so we don't get the wrong idea about things.

The original audiences/readers of the sacred writings would never have believed God was actually writing everything down to keep track of things or that he was sitting in a physical chair. Thrones and bookkeeping are human inventions. I don't think the idea that God does not have feathers and wings needs to be explained.

No, this information was not a direct revelation from God to me. It is not only my educated opinion, but the opinion of countless biblical scholars and Christians who understand the various methods used by the writers of the Bible to get truth across to those that need to hear it.

Religion has a unique ability to shape shift to suit the needs of those who need it to control others. What's rule today is metaphor tomorrow. What was degenerate yesterday is now rainbow flag waving acceptable today. When all else fails, it's "mysterious ways".

[.429&H110]

You know the story of the Prodigal Son.
Needs to be studied, has a lot of moving pieces.
Deep story on three levels, but at the end the father welcomes back his son with a feast.
Would we do any differently if our boy repented and returned? The kid spent half his dad's money...
The Prodigal Son could have chosen to live with the pigs, but he chose to go home.
You have the same choice.

"Religion has a unique ability to shape shift..." is how you can tell it's a man made religion.
God does not change. Truth does not change. Satan's best lie is: "Did God really say...?"
What you want, and I have found, is a relationship.

[phantom22]

I do not want an abusive relationship. When the story of Noah is considered a great divine plan, I heed the red flags. I do realize this is subjective, as the identities of the perpetrators of genocide make a difference in how much outrage is demonstrated.

[dverna]

phantom22, I know what you mean. I came to Jesus late in life. In my younger days, I saw the "inconsistencies" in the bible and decided it was all BS.

The way I have dealt with it is to believe the bible is not 100% the divine inspired word of God. The bible was written by men and there is no assurance all of them were "inspired by God". Then throw in the "errors" in translation and it gets even muddier.

There is much in the bible that is useful in our walk with Christ and to guide our lives. I decided it was foolish to "throw the baby out with the wash water". IMO the "Book of Life" is one of those inconsistencies. Not much about it makes sense...but in the big scheme of things it does not matter.

We are taught God is a loving, vengeful, fair, and to be feared. Lots of mixes messages. It is easy to find scripture that demonstrates that is not always true.

If the bible was as perfect as some believe, we would not need 1200 Christian sects to figure it out. My red flag goes up when anyone says differently. They are either brainwashed or not critical thinkers...but they can still be "good people".

The other conclusion I have come to is God is not perfect. In fact, there is no definitive scripture that tells us He is. I do not need God to be perfect to believe in Him. I will walk with an "imperfect" God rather than run with the devil. It is not difficult to determine Satan is pure evil.

[Good Cheer]

With Noah and his family, it being five months is a part of the plan. The ark as being representative of the ark of the last days is part of the plan. Jesus saying that at the end it would be as in the days of Noah is part of the plan. Not much there to call subjective or to be outraged about. Perhaps one could be outraged over it being our lot to cast off these meat suits and go home but hey, to decide whether to try throwing rocks at the father is the choice each individual is allowed to make.

[Alabama358]

Some parts of the Bible are intended to be taken literally. Other parts are not. It is important to learn how to interpret Scripture so we don't get the wrong idea about things. (It seems to me that folks usually get the wrong idea about things when they start trying to interpret Scripture as opposed to just believing on it)

The original audiences/readers of the sacred writings would never have believed God was actually writing everything down to keep track of things or that he was sitting in a physical chair. Thrones and bookkeeping are human inventions. I don't think the idea that God does not have feathers and wings needs to be explained.

No, this information was not a direct revelation from God to me. It is not only my educated opinion, but the opinion of countless biblical scholars and Christians who understand the various methods used by the writers of the Bible to get truth across to those that need to hear it.

With full understanding that the bible uses allegories, parables, similes and such...

I choose to take what "IT" says on face value and not so much on what countless biblical scholars (so called) say it says.

Matthew 18:2-4
2 And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,
3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

VS

Matthew 7:22-24
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:


Where do you start and stop with the "parts of the Bible are not to be taken literately stuff"
No Great White throne
No Lambs book of life
No new glorified bodies
No Book of Seven Seals
No pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb
No tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month
No Lake of Fire

and on and on and on...

On judgment day... I guess I would rather be like a child that just found out that I missed something... rather then the really smart intellectual at the gate pounding my chest about all the things that I said and did in HIS name.

It is hard for me to fathom the LORD wagging his head saying "I cant believe that you believed all that stuff I said"

Please do not get me wrong... I am not saying, that you will be one of the fellas at the gate pounding his chest but just that I don't want to be.
So I just keep it simple...
If it is there, I believe it.
If it is not there or needs to be massaged, interpreted or tortured to be there then I don't.

[HWooldridge]

Alabama358,

Your philosophy is very similar to mine - which is why I don't get wound up by the latest political firestorm or dire economic warnings. The Lord's Prayer is another example of the simplicity of the Gospel. I believe we should pray that the Lord's will be done in all things "on Earth, as it is in Heaven", because He knows what's best for everyone. God knew us before we were born and our conscious life here is just a brief blip in eternity.

With regard to predestination, there is an unfathomable difference between what we understand and what God knows (which is everything). We have no way of recognizing who is or isn't going to Heaven, nor is it our business to know - so it's up to each individual to live their lives in faith and hope of the Resurrection. Nobody on Earth, living or dead or yet to be born, will know these things until such time as the Lord wills it to happen.

People yammer on about the dinosaurs and how God destroyed them so we could prosper - but I would suggest they were simply here as part of God's holy plan. It is plain and obvious that He is a God of Life, and I imagine he thoroughly enjoyed creating all of those magnificent creatures so we could marvel at their fossils. He doesn't observe the passage of time like we do, so He can always act in accordance with His divine will.

The Earth was built for us but we are only here for a very short time and at some point, the Earth will cease to exist and all of Creation as we know it - but God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit will exist forever.

[Good Cheer]

Dinosaurs? For some reason our creator chose to make a bunch of them go away.
Really really awesome marksmanship. He casts His own you know.

[dverna]

Dinosaurs? For some reason our creator chose to make a bunch of them go away.
Really really awesome marksmanship. He casts His own you know.

Yes...another wonderful rabbit hole.

All the creatures that walk the earth were created in one day. Does God use days as we use them? Is the 'day' in Genisis a 24 hour day?

Is the new earth or old earth concept the right one?

It is a great leap of faith to believe the earth is 8000 years old. God chuckles as we try to wrap out little pea brains around the question.

"Common sense" tells me one thing, but my pastor believes something else. The bible does not have all the answers...but maybe the answers to our silly questions are not important.

[Good Cheer]

Yes...another wonderful rabbit hole.

All the creatures that walk the earth were created in one day. Does God use days as we use them? Is the 'day' in Genisis a 24 hour day?

Is the new earth or old earth concept the right one?

It is a great leap of faith to believe the earth is 8000 years old. God chuckles as we try to wrap out little pea brains around the question.

"Common sense" tells me one thing, but my pastor believes something else. The bible does not have all the answers...but maybe the answers to our silly questions are not important.

Golly, what are you calling the new earth or old earth concept?

[dverna]

Golly, what are you calling the new earth or old earth concept?

LOL...you...of all people is last one I would consider needing this explained.

Google search if you really do not know. But in a nut shell. Is the Universe 8000 years old or 14 billion years old? Was all life created on earth in two days or over millions of years?

[Jadkins87]

That is a lot to take in and a big rabbit hole that most don't want to talk about. with that said i believe God is real and is my lord and saver. i grow up with the kjv of the bible but i am have been reading on my bible app the Geneva bible that was written pre 1700 and there's a lot more in it that hasn't been reworded to today thinking.. that's just my opinion..

God Bless

JDAS

[Good Cheer]

LOL...you...of all people is last one I would consider needing this explained.

Google search if you really do not know. But in a nut shell. Is the Universe 8000 years old or 14 billion years old? Was all life created on earth in two days or over millions of years?

Hey Don, there's different versions roaming around in the churches of the land. My personal favorite and the one that seems to make the most sense with scripture is that there was a previous "Earth age" back when the rebellion against our creator happened. That because of the rebellion He wiped it and created this one. And that now we get to pass through the water and decide whether to go with Him or to go our own way, which is a very short trip indeed. There are variations to that as well, like questions on what (if anything) we were doing back during the rebellion. So any how, when somebody tosses in the fossil record and the geologic record a lot of people get all wormy feeling inside, some stuff their fingers in their ears, some kinda freeze up. As for me, I decided a long time ago that the more science catches up to what God wrote to us then the happier we'll be.

[dverna]

True words Good Cheer. I accept God on faith and hope that science "catches up". Not yet at the point I accept the Bible as 100% accurate; but He will understand when my time comes. It is not disrespect but honest questioning and searching for "truth".

I cannot sit around the campfire at night starring at all those points of light, and think it was just chance. As an atheist, it was easy to say, "Then who created God?" But I accept He was, is and will be.

Leaving the city, rat race, and corporate America opened my eyes in many ways.

[Good Cheer]

Here's some fun stuff if it's looked at as science struggling to catch up. :)
Hope someone watches it and has a good time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juyvnVL6V7g&pp=ygUJd2h5IGZpbGVz

[phantom22]

phantom22, I know what you mean. I came to Jesus late in life. In my younger days, I saw the "inconsistencies" in the bible and decided it was all BS.

The way I have dealt with it is to believe the bible is not 100% the divine inspired word of God. The bible was written by men and there is no assurance all of them were "inspired by God". Then throw in the "errors" in translation and it gets even muddier.

There is much in the bible that is useful in our walk with Christ and to guide our lives. I decided it was foolish to "throw the baby out with the wash water". IMO the "Book of Life" is one of those inconsistencies. Not much about it makes sense...but in the big scheme of things it does not matter.

We are taught God is a loving, vengeful, fair, and to be feared. Lots of mixes messages. It is easy to find scripture that demonstrates that is not always true.

If the bible was as perfect as some believe, we would not need 1200 Christian sects to figure it out. My red flag goes up when anyone says differently. They are either brainwashed or not critical thinkers...but they can still be "good people".

The other conclusion I have come to is God is not perfect. In fact, there is no definitive scripture that tells us He is. I do not need God to be perfect to believe in Him. I will walk with an "imperfect" God rather than run with the devil. It is not difficult to determine Satan is pure evil.

Again, it's just moving the goalposts. Is god perfect, is god not perfect. It doesn't matter, just adjust the religion to suit your needs. It's just gaslighting yourself.

Nothing makes sense, everything is vague or a metaphor depending on who you talk to, just ignore that a god just willy nilly murders the entire planet because of his love and your wrong decision of 'free will'.

I can't understand how people justify this in their minds. Is it that the supposed rewards in heaven are so awesome that you willingly overlook what your natural instinct and everyday understanding of how things actually work?

There's thousands of interpretations, hundreds of different sects all claiming the same thing means something different.

Does it ever enter the normal person's mind that just maybe, it's all invented? It certainly would explain why none of it makes sense.

The cognitive dissonance of it all is astounding to me.

[Good Cheer]

This place was set up for everyone to have to die and go home.
How do like those apples?

[ioon44]

[QUOTE=phantom22;5676989]Again, it's just moving the goalposts. Is god perfect, is god not perfect. It doesn't matter, just adjust the religion to suit your needs. It's just gaslighting yourself.

Nothing makes sense, everything is vague or a metaphor depending on who you talk to, just ignore that a god just willy nilly murders the entire planet because of his love and your wrong decision of 'free will'.

I can't understand how people justify this in their minds. Is it that the supposed rewards in heaven are so awesome that you willingly overlook what your natural instinct and everyday understanding of how things actually work?

There's thousands of interpretations, hundreds of different sects all claiming the same thing means something different.

Does it ever enter the normal person's mind that just maybe, it's all invented? It certainly would explain why none of it makes sense.

The cognitive dissonance of it all is astounding to me.[/QUO


This sounds like it came from the movie Nefarious.

[Alabama358]

Again, it's just moving the goalposts. Is god perfect, is god not perfect. It doesn't matter, just adjust the religion to suit your needs. It's just gaslighting yourself.

Nothing makes sense, everything is vague or a metaphor depending on who you talk to, just ignore that a god just willy nilly murders the entire planet because of his love and your wrong decision of 'free will'.

I can't understand how people justify this in their minds. Is it that the supposed rewards in heaven are so awesome that you willingly overlook what your natural instinct and everyday understanding of how things actually work?

There's thousands of interpretations, hundreds of different sects all claiming the same thing means something different.

Does it ever enter the normal person's mind that just maybe, it's all invented? It certainly would explain why none of it makes sense. Is this not gaslighting by definition??

The cognitive dissonance of it all is astounding to me.

I think the Pharisees (Heads of the Jewish Church/Synagogue ) had a similar opinion... How was it that Christ answered them?

John 8:43-47
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.


I think they gaslighted themselves straight to hell.

gaslighting: manipulate (someone) using psychological methods into questioning their own sanity or powers of reasoning.

[phantom22]

I think the Pharisees (Heads of the Jewish Church/Synagogue ) had a similar opinion... How was it that Christ answered them?

John 8:43-47
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.


I think they gaslighted themselves straight to hell.

gaslighting: manipulate (someone) using psychological methods into questioning their own sanity or powers of reasoning.

No it is not gaslighting at all. Perhaps "normal was taken out of context. By normal I mean without mental defect. Basically no condition exists that would compromise your thought process be it mental retardation or brain injury or the like. There should be no reason applying critical thinking and empathizing with different viewpoints would be difficult. It doesn't mean you have to agree with them. I've concluded that my reasoning is sound and included why.

You are doing something similar, but with a key difference. Your including scripture and referencing it as if it were commonly accepted fact. In the court of law this is a sustainable objection. In a real life conversation it is different, but perhaps it will give an insight to my train of thought.

I was once a witness in a murder trial from my Paramedic days. My role was basically that I was on scene and entered the crime scene to determine life status. During the trial, the defense objected to me saying that I saw blood. The basis for their objection was how could I know it was blood. Am I a qualified expert. I learned the defense tried this objection on other witnesses and some were sustained. The judge agreed with the prosecutor after asking how I could tell it was blood and not just a red colored stain as they made previous witnesses do. The point is that the details matter and the things referenced in the case must be established as fact before it can be referred to as such. I don't know the exact terminology for this, but that is the gist of it.

This is something I encounter almost every time I discuss any religion with someone. It is impossible to verify the truth of what is claimed in scripture. Nevertheless, the most common thing I hear is the reciting of some scripture to strengthen their case. They use the very thing that I am questioning the validity of as a building block for their argument.

You can argue that me questioning things because they don't add up to me is gaslighting. I don't see how that is manipulative. Maybe it raises uncomfortable questions in their own mind and they fall back on what they've always been taught. I remember my education in religion. The scripture was ultimate truth, undeniable and forever. Some here have expressed those very sentiments, while others have a more metaphoric take on it all. I do not know your background nor do I presume to know your train of thought.

I recall a debate between Ken Hamm and Bill Nye (the science guy) about creationism. It is a very interesting debate. One thing stood out to me the most. I'm paraphrasing,but the question was along the lines of what would change your mind. Ken Hamm remained steadfast and said something along the lines of 'nothing', that the Bible was ultimate truth and was literal. On the other side, Bill Nye simply stated, 'evidence'. I know not all people are as black and white, but I think Nye nailed what my major issue with religion is. It can be unwavering despite the knowledge of the world showing otherwise or casting huge doubts over the claims. I like to think that with evidence other than unverifiable scripture, anecdotes, etc... I would be able to change my mind.

There have been some to come up with some arguments that really made me ponder. For example, someone once said to me regarding evolution, why could that not be the way god created things. Perhaps he created life to be adaptable and change with the environment. The point of his argument is that humanity's understanding of the universe has just begun to scratch the surface of understanding creation. This was one of the most convincing arguments for religion I have heard and something I cannot dismiss without consideration.

Furthermore, much like some on this thread have commented, a literal interpretation isn't necessarily what is intended. Parables and the like make for good life lessons to apply towards circumstances you may face throughout life.

These comments made me think a lot on it. Ultimately I asked, why is religion even necessary for those things? If we are just scratching the surface of understanding the universe, why assume it is from intelligent design without knowing really anything? His answer was that is where faith enters the equation.

I can appreciate philosophy and do enjoy metaphors, poetry etc... I think that is half the reason I still find myself drawn to these discussions. As to these details, I again ask why is religion even necessary. These teaching stories have been around a long time before Christianity. Greek mythology is chocked full of examples. More modern would be Aesop's Fables. So I can appreciate the religious literature as an art form. This doesn't even mention great physical works of art inspired by religion. From Petra to the Sistine Chapel, religion has inspired many great things and I do not dismiss that fact.

I also see great works of art and literature that either has nothing to do with religion or is a completely different religion to Christianity, which is what I am familiar with as I suspect most on this forum are.

So I asked myself, what does this mean in terms of religious beliefs. I thought on it for a very long time and it piqued my interest in the subject of space and the understanding of the universe. Ultimately, the more I learned, the more I moved even further away from religion. While the points he brought up with me were reasonable and could potentially fit with our understanding of the universe, it assumed a lot of things. Why no mentions of evolution or something similar to it, but maybe called something different back then? Are the references buried in metaphor? Maybe, but that is subjective and you could perform mental gymnastics to make that kind of allusion fit a great number of scenarios. It requires a lot of personal interpretation.

If that was what it was all about, I would have no issue with religion and could possibly embrace it if for nothing more than the value it contributes to culture. But it doesn't stop there. From wars to making it so I cant buy wine to cook with before 10am on Sunday when 7am opening on Sunday is the best time to shop it meddles in our affairs and causes much suffering either directly or indirectly. Religious texts, despite their valuable life lessons, are also chocked full of murder, torture, enslavement, double dealings, betrayal and redemption with a heaping side of apocalypse and more death and suffering for dessert. I find it odd, how on one hand you have beautiful stories of people doing the right thing or trying to please God. On the other hand, god constantly needed blood to satiate his need for people to worship him. Whether he was outright killing people or tricking people into killing their own son to please him only to stop him at the last second to prove a point, it seems very sadistic and very effective. It appeals to your base instincts of survival. If one truly believes that they will be condemned to eternal suffering if they don't do god's will or that they will be eternally rewarded if they do, it can, has, and does lead to horrors inflicted upon people.

I speak mostly on Christianity because that is what I am familiar with. I've come to the same conclusions about other religions as well, although I admit I do not know nearly as much about them as I do Christianity. One positive for me that has come about my religious upbringing is my desire to make informed decisions on just about anything in my life. It has helped me derive conclusions based on actual fact, personal knowledge/experience, and intuition. Intuition, of course, being the most fallible, but a skill that gets honed when being open to facts while not ignoring experience.

Your results may vary I suppose. There are so many factors that shape one's mindset and beliefs. My experience with religion has been mostly negative. Maybe I was unlucky and had some really crappy ambassadors for god. It has had an undeniable influence on why I think the way I do. It's easy to imagine the exact opposite of my experience.

Here's something to ponder...all of your life and the experiences along the way for us have led to this moment where we are reading each others thoughts. How many things had to come together perfectly for this to happen. Is it just coincidence? Is it fate? Is it all part of a bigger plan? Is casting boolits our common ground? Is this way of thinking ultimately self destructive? Am I a lunatic and should just stick to posting nonsense in the 'how far this goes' thread? These questions and more will never be understood by us mere mortals.

[HWooldridge]

It's interesting that you mention the more you understand about the universe, the more you move away from religion. I'm the exact opposite - the more I understand the whole of creation, the more I believe in a Supreme Creator. It all works too perfectly for there not to be a conscious Mind creating structure and order from what could just as easily be chaos. I've believed this since I was a very small child and observed the natural world around me - even more now that I can watch television and see the wonders of the Earth in other places.

Perhaps it's simply our use of the word "religion" which is confusing, since it is a human concept. The abuse and negativity some folks have experienced isn't necessarily what was originally intended - but we are humans and basically screw up everything we touch. We will never pull ourselves out of the mud, which is the whole reason Christ came to Earth in human form and died for our sins.

[phantom22]

It's interesting that you mention the more you understand about the universe, the more you move away from religion. I'm the exact opposite - the more I understand the whole of creation, the more I believe in a Supreme Creator. It all works too perfectly for there not to be a conscious Mind creating structure and order from what could just as easily be chaos. I've believed this since I was a very small child and observed the natural world around me - even more now that I can watch television and see the wonders of the Earth in other places.

Perhaps it's simply our use of the word "religion" which is confusing, since it is a human concept. The abuse and negativity some folks have experienced isn't necessarily what was originally intended - but we are humans and basically screw up everything we touch. We will never pull ourselves out of the mud, which is the whole reason Christ came to Earth in human form and died for our sins.

I usually tend to say religion in general because most of the time I'm talking to people that follow Christianity. In my experience, people automatically assume I am speaking only of Christianity. I understand why since it is predominant and it's an easy assumption to make. I am not savvy as to the ins and outs of most other religions as I am Christianity, but I'm fairly certain, without devoting my life to the study of theology, that I would come to similar conclusions.

Anyway, I suppose it's all a matter of your perspective. To you the universe screams out intelligent design. To me the exact opposite. Your example of things working out perfectly is something I'm interested in.

My take on it is that the universe is vastly imperfect. Of all of the known universe at this time, we are the only life that is observable. That means that almost all of the universe is not perfect, at least for life as we know it. To me, if you understand and subscribe to the 'Big Bang' theory, it seems to follow probability. Of all the universe it seems reasonable that one chunk of rock would have to be in the absolute right position near a star with the right elements remaining in it to support life. There have been recent discoveries concerning the possibility of remains of bacteria or some single cell organisms on Mars or the Moon or both. I can't recall off the top of my head. I don't know if this was ever confirmed or not, but we are in the infancy of exploring our universe. I know that is extremely vague and there are lots of documentaries out there that explain it much better than I do.

I have heard the arguments that science can't tell you how life began or what there was before all of this happened. This is somewhat true and nobody knows for sure where or when it all started. I've always felt that the idea that there must be a creator because we can't specifically answer these questions as a logical fallacy. I can turn it around and say who created god? What was before him? If he always was, why couldn't the universe have always been? What was going on in the billions of years before humans were able to start recording history because by all accounts, we have not been here all that long....in the timeline of infinity.

Since we are in the infancy of our understanding, it doesn't make sense to me to attribute the unknown to a supernatural being with no evidence for it.

What really angers me is the state of scientific research today. I think they have completely tarnished if not irreparably damaged their credibility due to the forbidden subject and the trUsT tHe ScieNce morons. The scientific process seems to have been abandoned for political gain and the grabbing of power over people. I feel they are trying to turn science into a religion and using as a tool (to great effect) to accomplish these things. Look at your ice age/global warming/climate change nonsense. It has effected all of us and most importantly cost us a lot of money. Then you have different groups of academics saying opposite things. Most egregiously, in the medical field (another area I am highly experienced in) it suddenly turned into "this is the consensus". The exact opposite of how it is supposed to be. Science either is or isn't. It has to be observable and repeatable. Medicine has been evidence based for a very long time. Changes took a long time with extensive research and documented trials. Suddenly it was, 'we think this is the way' and they lost their minds and well....the results, in my learned opinion, was that the greatest crime against humanity was and still is being perpetrated. The ultimate cost in lives and suffering will never be able to be determined.

My distrust of religion has led me to be extra critical of science. I feel what has happened over the last 4 or so years is far worse than anything ever committed or influenced by religion. To me, that is saying a lot. I abandoned my medical career of 13 years + schooling over this. I refused to be a part of it and am ashamed that I did not abandon it sooner. Many of my colleagues felt the same as me. However, they sold out and caved in after having their jobs threatened. Fast forward and every day we are seeing more and more that the concerns over the blatant protocol deviations are being proved valid. Profiteering at the cost of destroying lives. And I'm not just talking about Covid stuff. The changes made effected all aspects of medical care. I digress, I don't want to break the rules of this site as I feel I have already likely pushed the envelope. I will freely discuss any of those things with people if they are interest through PM's or if the moderators give permission which I doubt is likely.

At this point, I don't know who you can trust anymore. My advice, and what I am working towards in my life, is to become as self sufficient as possible. Know that life as you know it can be changed with the stroke of a pen by our corrupt government. What is easily obtainable today will be impossible to obtain tomorrow. It has happened and will happen again. So I am trying to get back to basics. Be familiar and able to repair your own equipment. Be familiar with your firearms and how to make ammunition (I think most here have that one covered), practice growing your own food, etc... Just basic survival skills that will also benefit your everyday life even if not needed in an emergency.

If part of that plan involves religion, that's fine. Depending on your situation it could prove invaluable, especially if you have like minded peers that you can band together with and help one another.

I'm off on a bit of a tangent, I know, but the main takeaway is to apply critical thinking to everything. Even if that critical thinking leads to uncomfortable conclusions. Question everything, but also try and understand it. Routinely try and think of something from a different viewpoint. Even if is seems non-sensical or obviously wrong. It may turn out to be that way, but you may also discover flaws in your conclusions that you can attempt to understand better or fix. The truth does not fear the light. If you are asking questions and getting the run around, being made to feel like you shouldn't be poking your nose into things, and the worst of all, being coerced or threatened into compliance, then it should immediately raise concerns in your mind.

You mention that the negativity I experienced from religion may not have been the way it was intended to be, but here we are. Scientific research has become the same, if not worse. Vengeance is mine says the Lord, but I would certainly prefer that humanity take a more proactive approach to dealing with these monsters from shady individuals in the scientific community down to the horrors in the tunnels under our cities.

[HWooldridge]

Actually, I am an engineer who deals in critical thinking and root cause analysis on a daily basis - but I still come back to the belief that a Creator is behind it all. Your take that the universe is imperfect is a human opinion based on your life experiences developed over a relatively short time - consider if you will, that all humans could be wiped off the face of the earth and everything would still work. We are simply here for the blink of an eye but the cycles of the universe remain in their natural rhythms. Obviously, all domesticated animals would evolve into the best natural version based on their species, and some wild flora and fauna would perish but that has always been the case.

Most religions, including Christianity, began life as simple and direct philosophies of how to live among our peers and worship, but those danged old "people" got involved and made a mess, which is where we are now. We really don't need Satan rummaging around and causing havoc because we are quite skilled at causing chaos on our own.

With respect to God and the Big Bang, perhaps this is the 100th iteration of many Big Bangs and we are only a fraction of the way into many more. However, I think what may scare a lot of people is that we really are alone in this galaxy and Biblical teaching is functionally correct in stating the Lord is above all things. We tend to create everything in our image because that's our only point of reference, which is why most of your alien depictions are bipedal and more or less shaped like humans. We cannot conceive another race or Power that has no form or shape, or are amoeba sized but completely sentient, i.e., the pot cannot imagine the potter...

I agree with most of your comments and am sorry you had some bad career experiences - perhaps you will be able to get past that resentment someday.

[Good Cheer]

Oh my. Christianity is reality. Don't make the mistake of making a religion out of it.

[phantom22]

Actually, I am an engineer who deals in critical thinking and root cause analysis on a daily basis - but I still come back to the belief that a Creator is behind it all. Your take that the universe is imperfect is a human opinion based on your life experiences developed over a relatively short time - consider if you will, that all humans could be wiped off the face of the earth and everything would still work. We are simply here for the blink of an eye but the cycles of the universe remain in their natural rhythms. Obviously, all domesticated animals would evolve into the best natural version based on their species, and some wild flora and fauna would perish but that has always been the case.

Most religions, including Christianity, began life as simple and direct philosophies of how to live among our peers and worship, but those danged old "people" got involved and made a mess, which is where we are now. We really don't need Satan rummaging around and causing havoc because we are quite skilled at causing chaos on our own.

With respect to God and the Big Bang, perhaps this is the 100th iteration of many Big Bangs and we are only a fraction of the way into many more. However, I think what may scare a lot of people is that we really are alone in this galaxy and Biblical teaching is functionally correct in stating the Lord is above all things. We tend to create everything in our image because that's our only point of reference, which is why most of your alien depictions are bipedal and more or less shaped like humans. We cannot conceive another race or Power that has no form or shape, or are amoeba sized but completely sentient, i.e., the pot cannot imagine the potter...

I agree with most of your comments and am sorry you had some bad career experiences - perhaps you will be able to get past that resentment someday.

As long as we are down the rabbit hole, let's take your example of humans being wiped out. It's really not hard to imagine since we've only been around for a really short time and the universe is a bit older. It could be possible that humans could re-evolve in some shape or form. If the entire historical record is wiped out as well along with the people, would the new human race eventually reach the same conclusions on religion? Or would it simply not exist or exist in some other form? What if there are sentient beings out there somewhere. Are their societies having the same dilemmas?

As far as my career, the resentment will remain until there is a day of the rope. I cannot unsee the things I've seen nor will I ever forgive the perpetrators.

[phantom22]

Oh my. Christianity is reality. Don't make the mistake of making a religion out of it.

There might be some Muslims, jews, Taoists, Catholics, Buddhists, Mormons, Atheists, etc... that would say the same thing regarding their beliefs.

[ioon44]

Actually, Christianity is a relationship with Jesus Christ who died on a cross so our sins can be forgiven, and we can have a right relationship with God the Father so we can have eternal life not eternal death.

Religion is a demon sprit of deception that try's hide the truth of the Gospel.

John 14:6
English Standard Version
6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

[phantom22]

I have to say, saying Christianity is not a religion is a new one on me.

My first instinct is that there might be some kind of push to distance the concept of Christianity away from one's idea of 'religion'. Similar to how a company might re-brand after a scandal or some kind of negative connotation to the current name.

I have absolutely no proof of this, but it is the immediate thing that came to my mind.

[HWooldridge]

This is a dictionary definition of religion:

Religion
[ ri-lij-uhn ]

noun
A set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

A specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects:
the Christian religion;
the Buddhist religion.

So this comes right back to people, whereas I think some of the opinions stated here define Christianity as a personal relationship with Christ, as IOON44 stated. Organized "religion" produces men who dress in fine clothes and sexually abuse children. That behavior doesn't come from a sincere desire to worship and was condemned by Jesus.
(Matthew 18:5-6) 5] "And whosoever welcomes one such child in my name welcomes me. 6] But if anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea."

Humanity is depraved, and all the education and electronic gadgets can't fix our basic nature. Our only Savior is in Christ Jesus.

[Good Cheer]

There might be some Muslims, jews, Taoists, Catholics, Buddhists, Mormons, Atheists, etc... that would say the same thing regarding their beliefs.

Of course there are. Was there a purpose to your comment?[smilie=l:

[.429&H110]

When an Infinite God wants to write in an Infinite Book, and Promises He Will, there It Is.
This Book of Life thread has turned into a Nature of God question which needs its own thread.
Aren't we all curious about the Nature of God? Books have been written.
IMHO Religion is man-made and there is a huge difference between a cult and a religion.
We all have a relationship with God as unique as we are individual. Our common ground is The Word.
We all have a God shaped hole that we try to stuff with the things of the world. Only God fits.
I attend and recommend an Independent Baptist church, "in one accord", biblical, conservative.
YMMV. We don't shoot other people's reloads for a good reason.
A good study is "What is the difference between a church and a country club?"
That one was a great thread.

[phantom22]

Of course there are. Was there a purpose to your comment?[smilie=l:

Yes, different groups claim their religion or beliefs as reality and are unwavering. Today's world in all of it's glory is the result.

[Good Cheer]

Yes, different groups claim their religion or beliefs as reality and are unwavering. Today's world in all of it's glory is the result.

No, our world is the remedy to the rebellion.

[phantom22]

What movie are we talking about again?

[Good Cheer]

Is that the best you can do?

[Alabama358]

I attend and recommend an Independent Baptist church, "in one accord", biblical, conservative.
YMMV. We don't shoot other people's reloads for a good reason.


Now that is clever! Bravo

[phantom22]

Dude, reality and you have parted ways. You have absolutely nothing to offer in the way of actual facts.

Look at history...
Are you actually not familiar...
remedy to rebellion...
future facts...
etc...

None of this means anything. Your just stating things as if they were commonly accepted fact then you just say look it up or express surprise at all of our ignorance when you are asked to provide more than the catchy headline. It's quite bizarre. Opinions based on intuition or the like are fine, just provide some context to your train of thought so the rest of us can follow along.

[Good Cheer]

Dude, reality and you have parted ways. You have absolutely nothing to offer in the way of actual facts.

Look at history...
Are you actually not familiar...
remedy to rebellion...
future facts...
etc...

None of this means anything. Your just stating things as if they were commonly accepted fact then you just say look it up or express surprise at all of our ignorance when you are asked to provide more than the catchy headline. It's quite bizarre. Opinions based on intuition or the like are fine, just provide some context to your train of thought so the rest of us can follow along.

Ah, I see you don't get it. That this current world was set up as a remedy to the rebellion against our creator is basic Christian theology. We get to come here and decide whether to love the father or not. Pretty cut and dried. If you aren't Christian or haven't bothered to learn it...
Doesn't matter to me either way because it's up to you how you spend the limited time here.

[phantom22]

Please enlighten us as to your knowledge, answer direct questions pertaining to your knowledge/claims and stop vaguely referencing it like a teenage girl on facebook. I would like to understand what you are saying or at the very least follow along, but you keep deflecting and avoiding.

[Alabama358]

That this current world was set up as a remedy to the rebellion against our creator is basic Christian theology.

Well I consider myself to be a Christian and do not remember reading "in the Bible" that was the reason that God created the world and mankind for that matter was to deal with a group of rebelling angels. Chapter and Verse please?

Below are a few Chapter and verses that reference the rebellion... but I do not see where that was as you stated the reason that this current world was created.

Jude 1:6
6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

Isaiah 14:12-15
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

Revelation 12:6-9
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

[.429&H110]

Angels vaguely dancing on pins...

Billy Graham: People who say they don't understand the Bible do not read the Bible.

Page one: In the beginning, God... (the rest explains that and it isn't at all vague)

It's The Great Commission for us to spread the Word!

Dunno about "saving the world" but we can lead one soul at a time to the Holy Spirit as directed.

We are told to witness our salvation, apologize, teach, lead. He said we are the light of the world.

We must have a ready answer in a world of "Don't Ask, Don't Tell"

Don't hide your light under a bushel! I am convinced the only thing that can save America is Revival.

Don't you see that we are all missionaries each in his own way?

[Good Cheer]

Well I consider myself to be a Christian and do not remember reading "in the Bible" that was the reason that God created the world and mankind for that matter was to deal with a group of rebelling angels. Chapter and Verse please?

Below are a few Chapter and verses that reference the rebellion... but I do not see where that was as you stated the reason that this current world was created.

Jude 1:6
6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

Isaiah 14:12-15
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

Revelation 12:6-9
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Hi Alabama. Before quoting scripture, please get it straight when you're quoting me. I said this current world was set up as a remedy to the rebellion against our creator.

The rebellion happened. God wiped the world and set it back up. And put us here to have dominion. We're spirit beings that God knew before. We pass once through the water as humans with the free will opportunity to love the father or not, our decision. That's what it's all about and that's all in scripture but you do have to study.

[Good Cheer]

Please enlighten us as to your knowledge, answer direct questions pertaining to your knowledge/claims and stop vaguely referencing it like a teenage girl on facebook. I would like to understand what you are saying or at the very least follow along, but you keep deflecting and avoiding.

Oh my. You were given a very direct answer.

[phantom22]

Oh my. You were given a very direct answer.

Ok, you are just being dishonest at this point. I'm not the only one who has been a bit befuddled. My interaction with you is through. I will leave you with one final thought if you care to read it.

The way you are going about this is very similar to the responses I received from my supposed godly ambassadors when I was younger. It was extremely influential in why I am the way I am now. Now, granted, I have thought this way before our interactions, so none of that is your responsibility. Your snarky quip of you saying you gave a "very" direct answer is more dishonesty. You've not been direct on anything and you know it.

I am telling you that you are doing a horrible job at testifying for your beliefs. For someone who might come to you for guidance and maybe are still on the fence, I feel that you will likely push them in the direction that I went. Let's assume that your beliefs are completely accurate. The damage you are doing by representing it this way is something you will likely be held accountable for by your creator. Me being in the same position will not likely give you any comfort.

Ponder that. You can do better.

[Good Cheer]

Ok, you are just being dishonest at this point. I'm not the only one who has been a bit befuddled. My interaction with you is through. I will leave you with one final thought if you care to read it.

The way you are going about this is very similar to the responses I received from my supposed godly ambassadors when I was younger. It was extremely influential in why I am the way I am now. Now, granted, I have thought this way before our interactions, so none of that is your responsibility. Your snarky quip of you saying you gave a "very" direct answer is more dishonesty. You've not been direct on anything and you know it.

I am telling you that you are doing a horrible job at testifying for your beliefs. For someone who might come to you for guidance and maybe are still on the fence, I feel that you will likely push them in the direction that I went. Let's assume that your beliefs are completely accurate. The damage you are doing by representing it this way is something you will likely be held accountable for by your creator. Me being in the same position will not likely give you any comfort.

Ponder that. You can do better.

And now you're saying I'm dishonest. You've were on the attack with casting accusations and insults, and now you're stepping up your game. You're no longer deserving of even simple courtesies. I agree that yes, we are through.

[Alabama358]

The rebellion happened. God wiped the world and set it back up. And put us here to have dominion. We're spirit beings that God knew before. When you say "God wiped the world and set it back up" are you saying...

1- he wiped it and did a reset before Adam? Because this is when we were given dominion according to

Genesis 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

or

2 - he wiped it and did a reset with Noah and the flood? But in this case, the to give us dominion over it wouldn't make sense as he had already did that about 10 generations prior to the flood


We pass once through the water as humans with the free will opportunity to love the father or not, our decision. I think we are on the same page here if "We pass once through the water as humans" Is just a loquacious spiritually cool way of saying born of a woman with the free will to accept or reject salvation


That's what it's all about and that's all in scripture but you do have to study.
When you infer that if people were to just study that they can catch up with your understanding of scripture, without actually offering any scripture references (and please no more You-tube videos) ... it actually appears a tad dodgy. Similar to a person defending a pre-trib position without any scripture to offer and falling back on "you just need to study more so that you can rightfully divide the word. Referencing 2 Timothy 2:15

I am pretty sure that in my last post where you said that "That this current world was set up as a remedy to the rebellion against our creator is basic Christian theology.
I asked for (not demanded) chapter and verse to support this idea for this basic Christian theology concept.

[Good Cheer]

Good morning Alabama.
Yes sir, that God wiped the Earth clean before Adam.

About me saying people have to study, lots of people don't and they don't want to hear anything that doesn't agree with what they already have accepted. Voice something that differs from their accepted paradigm and you are trodding upon sacred comfort zones. Not being inclined towards patient teaching to deaf ears, to overcome emotional rejection of what scripture records I would just as soon respond with what amounts to "Look it up: It's in the book!" Did I say that I'm not a good teacher?

Genesis 1 is a great example of why that is and it relates to the matter at hand. It says that in the beginning God created this reality with the Earth and the heavens and afterwards the Earth became a waste, without form. And elsewhere in scripture (Isaiah 45:18 comes to mind) using the same Hebrew it is said that God did not create the world in vain (to be a waste, without form) but to be inhabited, highlighting the fact that the Earth was afterwards made to be without form. Elsewhere we're told about why; the rebellion.
Another example would be Jeremiah 4 and how people squabble over what the chapter is even about. Is it warning of the destruction of the land that was to take place when the Babylonians marched in or as some claim is it about the Romans? Ah but wait, what's that in verse 25 about there being no man (adam). Then there's the parts about the mountains trembling and the hills moving lightly (I'm going by the KJV there), and no birds (even Noah still had birds!) and all the cities were broken down at the presence of the Lord and the heavens were black... Not even the Romans were bad enough to drive away all the birds and surely they didn't have earthquake machines and weather warfare yet.

So any how, I go with Isaiah 28:10, precept upon precept, here a little there a little.
Step by step.
https://i.imgur.com/uxRZLhq.jpg
Nice picture. Not me but a pretty good illustration.

[.429&H110]

"Sacred comfort zones"? Do not look to the world for sacred!

Genesis uses our word "void" I wonder if Hebrew does too.

Void is different from zero- kind of like cancelled- a voided check.

Does that imply something was voided? "...was void" using the past tense?

I don't know. This Bible is a deep bottomless study, and we have only one lifetime to study it.
The Word is the only Truth reference we have. Is the light on or off, one or zero? That's Genesis One.
The Book has changed lives, has saved people from themselves: that is something I cannot do.
I am glad I found Him. Where's your joy?

[ioon44]

Our word void is Strongs H922 Transliteration bôû Pronunciation bo'-hoo meaning emptiness, void, waste.

Strong’s Definitions
בֹּהוּ bôhûw, bo'-hoo; from an unused root (meaning to be empty); a vacuity, i.e. (superficially) an undistinguishable ruin:—emptiness, void.

[.429&H110]

Boo-hoo? Wow! It's awesome where the old language pops up!

[Good Cheer]

There's just no substitute for taking scripture back to language roots and trying to learn what was meant rather than just taking someone else's translation and running with it. That and trying to understand the idioms of speech are where good teachers can really help a lot. Brilliant minds have been studying this for many centuries and we get to benefit from their work, to be lifted upon their shoulders. But still, we need to check them out because they're just people.

[dverna]

There's just no substitute for taking scripture back to language roots and trying to learn what was meant rather than just taking someone else's translation and running with it. That and trying to understand the idioms of speech are where good teachers can really help a lot. Brilliant minds have been studying this for many centuries and we get to benefit from their work, to be lifted upon their shoulders. But still, we need to check them out because they're just people.

There are few who can trace scripture to the original languages.

I agree that people who have done the translations could have made mistakes…or even altered things to fit a narrative. Most Christian’s will not accept that and believe what is written in English is the inspired word of God and perfect. I am not one of them.

I can accept an imperfect Bible and have gone so far as to believe God can be almighty and also imperfect. There is too much evidence in the Bible to conclude otherwise.

I started this thread because the concept of the Book of Life demonstrates this. So far no one has convinced me otherwise.

[justindad]

Foreknowledge is not causation.

[ioon44]

There are few who can trace scripture to the original languages.

I agree that people who have done the translations could have made mistakes…or even altered things to fit a narrative. Most Christian’s will not accept that and believe what is written in English is the inspired word of God and perfect. I am not one of them.

I can accept an imperfect Bible and have gone so far as to believe God can be almighty and also imperfect. There is too much evidence in the Bible to conclude otherwise.

I started this thread because the concept of the Book of Life demonstrates this. So far no one has convinced me otherwise.

Psalm 18:30

New International Version
As for God, his way is perfect: The LORD’s word is flawless; he shields all who take refuge in him.

New Living Translation
God’s way is perfect. All the LORD’s promises prove true. He is a shield for all who look to him for protection.

English Standard Version
This God—his way is perfect; the word of the LORD proves true; he is a shield for all those who take refuge in him.

Berean Standard Bible
As for God, His way is perfect; the word of the LORD is flawless. He is a shield to all who take refuge in Him.

King James Bible
As for God, his way is perfect: the word of the LORD is tried: he is a buckler to all those that trust in him.

New King James Version
As for God, His way is perfect; The word of the LORD is proven; He is a shield to all who trust in Him.

New American Standard Bible
As for God, His way is blameless; The word of the LORD is refined; He is a shield to all who take refuge in Him.

[HWooldridge]

Foreknowledge is not causation.

Correct - that has been my position ever since I heard predestination being discussed. Everyone has free will and we make our personal choices accordingly, but the Lord knows what is in our hearts and where our everlasting souls will ultimately go. If it were not so, we would simply be puppets, which would absolve us of any decision-making responsibilities.

[Good Cheer]

There are few who can trace scripture to the original languages.

I agree that people who have done the translations could have made mistakes…or even altered things to fit a narrative. Most Christian’s will not accept that and believe what is written in English is the inspired word of God and perfect. I am not one of them.

I can accept an imperfect Bible and have gone so far as to believe God can be almighty and also imperfect. There is too much evidence in the Bible to conclude otherwise.

I started this thread because the concept of the Book of Life demonstrates this. So far no one has convinced me otherwise.

About what was said in scripture before the old Englishmen and others had their way with it, the heavy lifting has been done for us. That's what makes the King Jams such a precious resource, having so many concordances, dictionaries and commentaries keyed specifically to it. My favorite study tools are Bullinger's edition of the King James (almost a hundred years old now) with its appendices and the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance (pre-Nelson). Green's Interlinear is wonderful also but not as crucial.

What you are convinced of is what you accepted into your mind, your choice. That's why I keep wanting to study.

[Alabama358]

Good morning Cheer,
I strongly disagree and will pass on the whole God has destroyed the earth twice to try to deal with rebellious fallen whatevers Gap theory thing


Genesis 1 is a great example of why that is and it relates to the matter at hand. It says that in the beginning God created this reality with the Earth and the heavens and afterwards the Earth became a waste, without form.
Lets start with...that is NOT what Genesis:1 says, but your right it is a great example of something... mans ability to torture scripture to get it to say something not intended.

That is more like a slightly re-worded quote from Cyrus Ingerson Scofield notes from a Scofield study bible. (The same Scholar/teacher/expert/theologinon/Lawyer so called blahblahblah.. standing on the shoulders of other national treasures like John Nelson Darby, James Hall Brookes, James Inglis and the like that all helped promote works like the Gap theory, Pre-trib rapture, Dispensationalism and such...

A brief Google search of the Late Great Mr. Scofield will turn up stuff like

In 1866, he married Leontine LeBeau Cerrè, a member of a prominent French Catholic family in St. Louis.[6] Scofield apprenticed in the law office of his brother-in-law and then worked in the St. Louis assessor's office before moving to Atchison, Kansas, in late 1869. In 1871, Scofield was elected to the Kansas House of Representatives, first from Atchison for one year and then from Nemaha County, for a second. In 1873 he worked for the election of John J. Ingalls as senator from Kansas, and when Ingalls won, the new senator had Scofield appointed U. S. District Attorney for Kansas—at 29, the youngest in the country.[7] Nevertheless, that same year Scofield was forced to resign "under a cloud of scandal" because of questionable financial transactions, which may have included accepting bribes from railroads, stealing political contributions intended for Ingalls, and securing bank promissory notes by forging signatures.[8] It is possible Scofield was jailed on forgery charges, although there is no extant evidence in the public records.[9]
Perhaps in part because of his self-confessed heavy drinking,[10] Scofield abandoned his wife and two daughters during this period.[11] Leontine Cerrè Scofield divorced him on grounds of desertion in 1883, and the same year Scofield married Hettie Hall von Wartz, with whom he eventually had a son.[12]

What Genesis:1 actually says...
1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

What Genesis:1 Does Not say...(but if we are going to annotate scripture with THE GAP theory, lets do it up right)
1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void;When I say "void, bôhûw, bo'-hoo" what I am really saying is that my creation was hijacked by a group of fallen/rebellious/evil demons for millions/billions of years...
so as a remedy I had to destroy everything and then created man in my image and gave him dominion over the world.
Only that didn't work because those darn stubborn fallen/rebellious/evil Giants came back again,
so I had to destroy the world a second time by means of the Great flood during the time of Noah... but come to think of it that didn't work out either because those stubborn Giants are still around throughout the old testament.
Nevertheless this is the reason for your Carbon Dated Billion year old fossils.
I don't think I will use my Prophets of the Old Testament nor my Son or his disciples in the New Testament to give any clear teachings on this matter... but have no fear, somewhere in the 18th century AD, I will provide you with some scholars to help you connect the dots and properly align Scripture and your modern day "Science so called" and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

The above mocking was just in fun to try to illustrate just how goofy and ridicules it is to try and force things like "THE GAP" into scripture that isn't there.

There is a reason...
It is not taught in the Old Testament
It is not taught by Christ
It is not taught by Christ's disciples


I think I have spurred this horse until the knees buckled and have little to no chance of swaying anyone that has fully bought in on the subject at hand, (my illustration was geared more for folks sitting on the fence or completely new to the subject) so I probably wont have much more to say and will wait for a more profitable subject to come along.

Happy Hunting...

[.429&H110]

My Koine word of the week is aporia. Irreconcilable.

A = without
Poria = passage
it's like the XOR gate where two things cannot be true (or false) at the same time or you get zero.

St. Paul referenced "All Cretans are liars"--aporia.
The Greeks could not agree on anything except that triangles had three sides.

A good way to solve the translation problem is to pick one and get in your Honda Accord.
You can get six Baptists into a Honda if they are in an accord....
That is the reason I cherish the KJV, warts and all, at my church it's the Word, we are in accord.

Genesis is real, a miraculous event we try to understand, but we see what we want to see.
If you believe the earth is 6,000,000,000 years old you are only off by times 10^6.

Tip O'Neil once said "Lose a million here and a million there, pretty soon it's big money"

[Good Cheer]

Good morning Cheer,
I strongly disagree and will pass on the whole God has destroyed the earth twice to try to deal with rebellious fallen whatevers Gap theory thing


Lets start with...that is NOT what Genesis:1 says, but your right it is a great example of something... mans ability to torture scripture to get it to say something not intended.

That is more like a slightly re-worded quote from Cyrus Ingerson Scofield notes from a Scofield study bible. (The same Scholar/teacher/expert/theologinon/Lawyer so called blahblahblah.. standing on the shoulders of other national treasures like John Nelson Darby, James Hall Brookes, James Inglis and the like that all helped promote works like the Gap theory, Pre-trib rapture, Dispensationalism and such...

A brief Google search of the Late Great Mr. Scofield will turn up stuff like

In 1866, he married Leontine LeBeau Cerrè, a member of a prominent French Catholic family in St. Louis.[6] Scofield apprenticed in the law office of his brother-in-law and then worked in the St. Louis assessor's office before moving to Atchison, Kansas, in late 1869. In 1871, Scofield was elected to the Kansas House of Representatives, first from Atchison for one year and then from Nemaha County, for a second. In 1873 he worked for the election of John J. Ingalls as senator from Kansas, and when Ingalls won, the new senator had Scofield appointed U. S. District Attorney for Kansas—at 29, the youngest in the country.[7] Nevertheless, that same year Scofield was forced to resign "under a cloud of scandal" because of questionable financial transactions, which may have included accepting bribes from railroads, stealing political contributions intended for Ingalls, and securing bank promissory notes by forging signatures.[8] It is possible Scofield was jailed on forgery charges, although there is no extant evidence in the public records.[9]
Perhaps in part because of his self-confessed heavy drinking,[10] Scofield abandoned his wife and two daughters during this period.[11] Leontine Cerrè Scofield divorced him on grounds of desertion in 1883, and the same year Scofield married Hettie Hall von Wartz, with whom he eventually had a son.[12]

What Genesis:1 actually says...
1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

What Genesis:1 Does Not say...(but if we are going to annotate scripture with THE GAP theory, lets do it up right)
1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void;When I say "void, bôhûw, bo'-hoo" what I am really saying is that my creation was hijacked by a group of fallen/rebellious/evil demons for millions/billions of years...
so as a remedy I had to destroy everything and then created man in my image and gave him dominion over the world.
Only that didn't work because those darn stubborn fallen/rebellious/evil Giants came back again,
so I had to destroy the world a second time by means of the Great flood during the time of Noah... but come to think of it that didn't work out either because those stubborn Giants are still around throughout the old testament.
Nevertheless this is the reason for your Carbon Dated Billion year old fossils.
I don't think I will use my Prophets of the Old Testament nor my Son or his disciples in the New Testament to give any clear teachings on this matter... but have no fear, somewhere in the 18th century AD, I will provide you with some scholars to help you connect the dots and properly align Scripture and your modern day "Science so called" and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

The above mocking was just in fun to try to illustrate just how goofy and ridicules it is to try and force things like "THE GAP" into scripture that isn't there.

There is a reason...
It is not taught in the Old Testament
It is not taught by Christ
It is not taught by Christ's disciples


I think I have spurred this horse until the knees buckled and have little to no chance of swaying anyone that has fully bought in on the subject at hand, (my illustration was geared more for folks sitting on the fence or completely new to the subject) so I probably wont have much more to say and will wait for a more profitable subject to come along.

Happy Hunting...

In amongst my study materials I actually do have a copy of the Scofield bible that I picked up at a charity resale shop in Nova Scotia almost twenty years ago. Boy howdy was that investigation ever a fun job. By the time I was done there the client wanted me to relocate into Michigan and to take over the whole project. Any way, back to the matter of Genesis 1:2.

Geology, paleontology and archaeology show us some interesting things about our world and ourselves. By investigative study we've learned that our world is really old and has changed a lot over a really long time, in between the time when our father created it and when He created us. We're a bunch of newbies but this old world is really old, extinction events and all. So not only do we have the text itself telling us what happened (eh, unless you want to trust those old Englishmen) but we have physical evidence that corroborates the word. Those slide rule cats are getting closer to the bible all the time.

There's good science and there's bad science. There's good scripture understanding and there's bad understanding.
When good science and good scripture understanding come together it's a wonderful thing to behold.
Why you'd want to throw both out the window beats me but it's OK with me just the same.

PS,
Scofield didn't invent the Hebrew or what it means. Heh, I don't think he wrote the notes to "his" bible either but that's a whole nuther can of worms.

Later.

[Alabama358]

Exodus 20:11
11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Maybe the modern day scholars have a better source then a burning bush and certainly must have a better understanding of Hebrew and a firmer grip of that times vernacular then Moses did. He obviously didn't have the advantage of a blue letter bible so he missed the true meaning of void or bôhûw

But then again he seems pretty sure of the 6 literal days thing... maybe the burning bush forgot to copy him on the Gap Theory memo and he was just passing fake news... Thank goodness that we have modern day scholars to fact check him and set the record straight.


Sorry, I know I said I was finished... but I just couldn't help myself. [smilie=l:

[dverna]

Exodus 20:11
11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Maybe the modern day scholars have a better source then a burning bush and certainly must have a better understanding of Hebrew and a firmer grip of that times vernacular then Moses did. He obviously didn't have the advantage of a blue letter bible so he missed the true meaning of void or bôhûw

But then again he seems pretty sure of the 6 literal days thing... maybe the burning bush forgot to copy him on the Gap Theory memo and he was just passing fake news... Thank goodness that we have modern day scholars to fact check him and set the record straight.


Sorry, I know I said I was finished... but I just couldn't help myself. [smilie=l:

And that my friend is only one part of the Bible I have an issue with. If I must accept every day was a 24 hour day, then I cannot accept the Bible as 100% accurate or 100% the devine word of God.

If I am wrong God will forgive me. He will be less inclined to look on me favorably if I accept something I cannot believe in order to “fit in”. The church I go to requires I accept scripture as the whole and complete truth. Therefore, I will never be a member but I get a lot from the sermons preached by the pastor there. The pastor makes me think.

[Alabama358]

And that my friend is only one part of the Bible I have an issue with. If I must accept every day was a 24 hour day, then I cannot accept the Bible as 100% accurate or 100% the devine word of God.


Why?
You believe he is God the creator
You believe he created everything
You just can not believe he did it in the time frame that he said he did it.
That is some narrow minded thinking if you don't mind me saying so.

Genesis 1:13-14
13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.
14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

If folks would just make it half way down the page to verse 14, he tells you that he knows the difference between days, years and seasons.
Sun comes up (morning)...Sun goes down (evening) = 1 day

Right in the middle of the week between the 3rd and 4th day, he even stops to tell you exactly what the unit of measure is, and refers to the evening and morning so you wont be confused on what he is calling a day.

It is so simple that you would have to enlist the help of a scholar or an expert to misunderstand it

[dverna]

Why?
You believe he is God the creator
You believe he created everything
You just can not believe he did it in the time frame that he said he did it.
That is some narrow minded thinking if you don't mind me saying so.

Genesis 1:13-14
13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.
14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

If folks would just make it half way down the page to verse 14, he tells you that he knows the difference between days, years and seasons.
Sun comes up (morning)...Sun goes down (evening) = 1 day

Right in the middle of the week between the 3rd and 4th day, he even stops to tell you exactly what the unit of measure is, and refers to the evening and morning so you wont be confused on what he is calling a day.

It is so simple that you would have to enlist the help of a scholar or an expert to misunderstand it

I understand what you are saying. Regrettably, I cannot "pencil it out". I cannot believe dinosaurs and men walked the earth at the same time. There are passages talking about giants, and very few that could be about dinosaurs if one wants to make the stretch "to believe". It seems a creature that large would have earned a bit more "press" than lions in the Bible.

Neither can I wrap my head around creation being completed in six 24 hour days or the age of the universe as 6-8,000 years old. There are more things that do not make sense to me. But maybe in another thread.

My roadblocks are partly a result of decades of not believing in God. It is also in how I am wired. I was an engineer for many years and have a science based mind set.

My acceptance of Jesus came late in my life. I knew there was something missing and I made the choice to accept Him. It has been life changing.

I am left in "no man's land". If I must accept the Bible as 100% accurate to be a Christian, I cannot make that leap of faith. I am planning to meet with my Pastor to talk things out. Our church has this message, "Meeting people where they are and moving them to where God wants them to be". I will see....

BTW, thank you for trying to help.

[Alabama358]

BTW, thank you for trying to help.

Your welcome...

Break the lead point off that pencil and put it in a drawer, it will make life easier

[HWooldridge]

It is worth noting that some respected Jewish rabbis, who we might assume to be reasonably well-educated on the subject, were judging the Earth to be much older than the literal interpretation in Genesis, with estimates up to 2.5 billion years (and these opinions were being written in the 11th and 12th centuries).

The Bible was written by men who were inspired by the Word of God and codified by other men over a long time period. I can imagine Moses being shown all of creation in a vision, and God conveying this stretch of time was the first Day, the second, etc. Moses then naturally recorded what happened as it was related to him.

Don, I'm with you in the belief that the Cosmos is quite old, but I don't really care if we have the age calculated correctly within a billion years of conception. There is nothing in my mind that sees a conflict with a Supreme God existing before the Big Bang, and there is no way of knowing whether we are living in the hundredth iteration of a Universe. The concept of a creation which is billions of years old is still awe inspiring, especially if you consider everything that had to happen just so we could discuss it on an internet forum. I can speculate that God is chuckling to Himself over the whole thing.

[.429&H110]

Be careful of
"If I were God, I wouldn't do that"
or
"How could God have done that?"
You aren't God, He Is.

To deny the Miraculous is a slippery slope, as the Devil has a slippery shoe.
The Bible is not a buffet line, it is Thanksgiving Dinner!

In Genesis "...and God closed the door."
The Ark had no sail or rudder, it must have rolled like a canoe. Miraculous.

[justindad]

At the end of the day you either do want to be with your creator or you don’t. Humans lack the humility & faculties to truly understand how limited we are in absolute knowledge. Science is a process of modeling observations- it is not truth. Much of what we understand must be taken on faith.

If you’ve decided to spend eternity with your Creator, pray for understanding from the Holy Spirit as you read the Bible.


But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.
John 14:26 ESV

[Alabama358]

It is worth noting that some respected Jewish rabbis, who we might assume to be reasonably well-educated on the subject, were judging the Earth to be much older than the literal interpretation in Genesis, with estimates up to 2.5 billion years (and these opinions were being written in the 11th and 12th centuries).



What were the well respected Jewish rabbis names? I would like to research and see what they had to say.

Why would it be reasonable to assume that they were well-educated on the subject? were they Geologist or perhaps Paleontologist?

I also wonder what equipment or methods/science they were using back in the 11th century... must have been something reliable to get them to the 2.5 billion mark.

[Alabama358]

If you’ve decided to spend eternity with your Creator, pray for understanding from the Holy Spirit as you read the Bible.


John 14:26 ESV

GREAT advice!!!

[HWooldridge]

What were the well respected Jewish rabbis names? I would like to research and see what they had to say.

Why would it be reasonable to assume that they were well-educated on the subject? were they Geologist or perhaps Paleontologist?

I also wonder what equipment or methods/science they were using back in the 11th century... must have been something reliable to get them to the 2.5 billion mark.

Wiki is your friend - research to your heart's content:

"Some medieval philosophical rationalists, such as Maimonides[11] and Gersonides[12] held that not every statement in Genesis is meant literally. In this view, one was obligated to understand Torah in a way that was compatible with the findings of science. Indeed, Maimonides, one of the great rabbis of the Middle Ages, wrote that if science and Torah were misaligned, it was either because science was not understood or the Torah was misinterpreted.[13] Maimonides argued that if science proved a point that did not contradict any fundamentals of faith, then the finding should be accepted and scripture should be interpreted accordingly.[14] For example, in discussing Plato's view that the universe has existed literally forever, he argued that there was no convincing rational proof one way or the other, so that he (Maimonides) was free to accept, and therefore did accept, the literal biblical view that the universe came into being at a definite time; but that had Plato's theory been convincing enough with sufficient scientific proof he would have been able to reinterpret Genesis accordingly.[15] With regard to Genesis, Maimonides stated that "the account given in scripture is not, as is generally believed, intended to be in all its parts literal." Later in the same paragraph, he specifically states that this applies to the text from the beginning to the account of the sixth day of creation.[16]

Nachmanides, often critical of the rationalist views of Maimonides, pointed out (in his commentary to Genesis) several non-sequiturs stemming from a literal translation of the Bible's account of Creation, and stated that the account actually symbolically refers to spiritual concepts. He quoted the Mishnah in Tractate Hagigah which states that the actual meaning of the Creation account, mystical in nature, was traditionally transmitted from teachers to advanced scholars in a private setting.

A literal interpretation of the biblical Creation story among classic rabbinic commentators is uncommon. Thus Bible commentator Abraham ibn Ezra (11th century) wrote,

If there appears something in the Torah which contradicts reason…then here one should seek for the solution in a figurative interpretation…the narrative of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, for instance, can only be understood in a figurative sense.[17]

Similarly, Saadiah Gaon wrote that Biblical verses should be interpreted non-literally if they contradict the senses or intellect.[18]"

[Alabama358]

Wiki is your friend - research to your heart's content:

"Some medieval philosophical rationalists, such as Maimonides[11] and Gersonides[12] held that not every statement in Genesis is meant literally. In this view, one was obligated to understand Torah in a way that was compatible with the findings of science. Indeed, Maimonides, one of the great rabbis of the Middle Ages, wrote that if science and Torah were misaligned, it was either because science was not understood or the Torah was misinterpreted.[13] Maimonides argued that if science proved a point that did not contradict any fundamentals of faith, then the finding should be accepted and scripture should be interpreted accordingly.[14] For example, in discussing Plato's view that the universe has existed literally forever, he argued that there was no convincing rational proof one way or the other, so that he (Maimonides) was free to accept, and therefore did accept, the literal biblical view that the universe came into being at a definite time; but that had Plato's theory been convincing enough with sufficient scientific proof he would have been able to reinterpret Genesis accordingly.[15] With regard to Genesis, Maimonides stated that "the account given in scripture is not, as is generally believed, intended to be in all its parts literal." Later in the same paragraph, he specifically states that this applies to the text from the beginning to the account of the sixth day of creation.[16]

Nachmanides, often critical of the rationalist views of Maimonides, pointed out (in his commentary to Genesis) several non-sequiturs stemming from a literal translation of the Bible's account of Creation, and stated that the account actually symbolically refers to spiritual concepts. He quoted the Mishnah in Tractate Hagigah which states that the actual meaning of the Creation account, mystical in nature, was traditionally transmitted from teachers to advanced scholars in a private setting.

A literal interpretation of the biblical Creation story among classic rabbinic commentators is uncommon. Thus Bible commentator Abraham ibn Ezra (11th century) wrote,

If there appears something in the Torah which contradicts reason…then here one should seek for the solution in a figurative interpretation…the narrative of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, for instance, can only be understood in a figurative sense.[17]

Similarly, Saadiah Gaon wrote that Biblical verses should be interpreted non-literally if they contradict the senses or intellect.[18]"

Let us just start at the top with Maimonides...

The present legal status of Christianity is presented in this chapter. Maimonides views Christianity together with Islam. For Maimonides, Christianity and Islam are related to Judaism. Maimonides's practical view of Christianity was usually assumed to be negative and he regarded Christianity as a form of proscribed polytheism, even for gentiles. In his code of Jewish law, Mishneh Torah, Maimonides basically restated his judgment about the idolatrous status of Christianity without repeating the reasons he gave in his earlier works. As a theologian, he took regularly strong exemption to Christian Trinitarianism. Maimonides ranked Islam superior than Christianity on theological grounds. For him, Christianity is the prime example of the error of such anthropomorphism in its original doctrine of the Incarnation and in its associated doctrine of the Trinity.

So you go to the likes of Maimonides... the same Maimonides that rejects Christ, and futhermore in his teachings Ranks Islam as superior to Christianity?

Really? It is no wonder you have doubts.

[HWooldridge]

You asked for names and I provided several. Maimonides was a widely respected Jewish rabbi but there were others quoted - and we were discussing the Genesis story of Creation so his opinion of Christianity is immaterial. It’s interesting you picked on him to the exclusion of everyone else; nice try at distraction but I’m neither dissuaded or doubting.

That’s the common problem with literal interpretations, whether the Bible or Shakespeare - they don’t tolerate any room for discussion.

[Alabama358]

You asked for names and I provided several. Maimonides was a widely respected Jewish rabbi but there were others quoted - and we were discussing the Genesis story of Creation so his opinion of Christianity is immaterial. It’s interesting you picked on him to the exclusion of everyone else; nice try at distraction but I’m neither dissuaded or doubting.

That’s the common problem with literal interpretations, whether the Bible or Shakespeare - they don’t tolerate any room for discussion.

Laughable

[HWooldridge]

Sarcasm is the last refuge of the defeated wit…:mrgreen:

It’s unfortunate that this thread is a fair representation of what goes in the world every day. Several posters have already alluded to being discouraged by answers from supposed subject matter experts when they asked rational questions. It’s a sad day when someone becomes so disillusioned they either abandon their faith or never come to the realization of Jesus Christ’s gift to the entire world.

[justindad]

Do not judge, so that you will not be judged. For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you.
Matt 7:1-2, NASB

At the very least, you give everyone an understanding of your capacity to judge, or lack thereof.

[Good Cheer]

The rebellion and Earth being old far beyond the creation of man isn't new.
The rebellious devil has been at work for a long, long time.

For those who study, our creator uses to His purposes what is available.

[.429&H110]

I am convinced the difference between old earthers and young earthers is funding.
I can't get paid for my beliefs, why should I pay them for theirs?
We need a better non-flammable battery, educate the kids, cure the common cold, useful stuff...

Since Galileo they have been building bigger telescopes.
Uof A is building the next huge infrared device for a mountain in Chile.
All these neat $10^10 Webb pictures are in invisible (to us) light.
So NASA has a room full of kids coloring the pictures in so that they look pretty.

To know God you need no telescope, nor microscope, you need only an open heart.
That is what I mean by aporia, irreconcilable.

[dverna]

Please do not get the thread closed.

I have said it before….Christianity is not as simple as some folks want to make it. We have over 1200 Christian sects. Why is that? They all use the same Bible.

What is simple is accepting Jesus. I would hope that is enough. Whatever interpretation or misinterpretation of the Word each of us or each sect clings to should not be a deal killer or a cause for animosity.

There are churches being torn apart with acceptance of gays, some allowing gays to minister. I find that difficult to accept but it is happening and I know people on both sides. They are good people too.

[HWooldridge]

Please do not get the thread closed.

I have said it before….Christianity is not as simple as some folks want to make it. We have over 1200 Christian sects. Why is that? They all use the same Bible.

What is simple is accepting Jesus. I would hope that is enough. Whatever interpretation or misinterpretation of the Word each of us or each sect clings to should not be a deal killer or a cause for animosity.

There are churches being torn apart with acceptance of gays, some allowing gays to minister. I find that difficult to accept but it is happening and I know people on both sides. They are good people too.

Accepting Jesus is certainly enough - Matthew 11: "28 “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”

[dverna]

Accepting Jesus is certainly enough - Matthew 11: "28 “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”

Thank you HW.

I have little patience folks who "know" their interpretation of the Bible is the only correct one; and if someone does not accept their version everyone else goes to hell.

Therefore, let's face it, we have 1200 sects because people pick and choose the scriptures that "fit" their thinking. In the end Jesus does not care...if you accept Him as your savior.

My understanding is that if Hitler had truly repented and accepted Jesus before he died, Hitler will be in heaven when we get there. Jesus offers unconditional love and grace. Accept it and move on!!!

[Alabama358]

There are churches being torn apart with acceptance of gays, some allowing gays to minister. I find that difficult to accept but it is happening and I know people on both sides. They are good people too.

Romans 1:21-29
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

[Alabama358]

My understanding is that if Hitler had truly repented and accepted Jesus before he died, Hitler will be in heaven when we get there. Jesus offers unconditional love and grace. Accept it and move on!!!
I have never heard that... can you share your reference material???

[HWooldridge]

I have never heard that... can you share your reference material???

I think he’s alluding to the thief on the cross. It’s a similar concept - of course, extremely committed sinners probably don’t feel obligated to repent. They will go to the grave thinking their way was right. The thief next to Christ was an exception.

[dverna]

I think he’s alluding to the thief on the cross. It’s a similar concept - of course, extremely committed sinners probably don’t feel obligated to repent. They will go to the grave thinking their way was right. The thief next to Christ was an exception.

You are correct.

Alabama...ALL sins were forgiven when Jesus died for our sins. Yes, even the sins of a man like Hitler, or the man you may rape and murder your daughter and/or wife and/or mother.

My friend gave me the book "The Shack" by William Young when I started my faith journey. It is fiction, but an interesting read wrt to a topic like this. After reading it I realized I will never be the kind of Christian Jesus expects me to be. My sins are many, and thankfully, His mercy is more.

[Alabama358]

You are correct.

Alabama...ALL sins were forgiven when Jesus died for our sins. Yes, even the sins of a man like Hitler,



Don,
Yes I realize the endless capacity for Christ's forgiveness ... to be quite honest, I misread your post and thought you were stating that hitler had repented as apposed to if he had repented. sorry for the confusion.

Personally I think hitler had been given over to a reprobate mind and had been blotted out of the Lamb's book long before he checked out.

[Good Cheer]

There is one unforgivable sin. Did Hitler commit it? Anybody know?

[dverna]

There is one unforgivable sin. Did Hitler commit it? Anybody know?

The “old” me hopes Hitler did commit the unforgivable sin. And that is why i continue to be a poor Christian. A good Christian would rejoice in Hitlers soul being saved…I cannot get there.

[Alabama358]

There is one unforgivable sin. Did Hitler commit it? Anybody know?

Just one???
1)* Blaspheme the Holy Ghost
2)** Adding to or taking away from the Book
3)*** Taking the Mark of the Beast
4)**** Being given over to a reprobate mind

*Matthew 12:31
Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

**Revelation 22:18-19
18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

***Revelation 14:9-10
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

****Romans 1:26-28
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

[.429&H110]

If you can believe Wiki... (Victims of the Holocaust):
Hitler vehemently despised Christianity, calling it the enemy of National Socialism. According to historian William Shirer, "under the leadership of Rosenberg, Bormann and Himmler—backed by Hitler—the Nazi regime intended to destroy Christianity in Germany, if it could, and substitute the old paganism of the early tribal Germanic gods and the new paganism of the Nazi extremists".

[Alabama358]

If you can believe Wiki... (Victims of the Holocaust):
Hitler vehemently despised Christianity, calling it the enemy of National Socialism. According to historian William Shirer, "under the leadership of Rosenberg, Bormann and Himmler—backed by Hitler—the Nazi regime intended to destroy Christianity in Germany, if it could, and substitute the old paganism of the early tribal Germanic gods and the new paganism of the Nazi extremists".

It makes me wonder about the Azov Nazi Brigade fighting for Ukraine. (look it up, but you will have to wade through the censorship)
Under the little thug Volodymyr Zelenskyy's leadership the country is under martial law, certain church groups have been outlawed and the opposing political group has been outlawed.
I just wonder how long it will be before the American people understand that they have been hoodwinked.

[ioon44]

There are no good guys in the Ukraine and Russia war.

[dverna]

It makes me wonder about the Azov Nazi Brigade fighting for Ukraine. (look it up, but you will have to wade through the censorship)
Under the little thug Volodymyr Zelenskyy's leadership the country is under martial law, certain church groups have been outlawed and the opposing political group has been outlawed.
I just wonder how long it will be before the American people understand that they have been hoodwinked.

You have more confidence in the intelligence of Americans than I do.

[Good Cheer]

Just one???
1)* Blaspheme the Holy Ghost
2)** Adding to or taking away from the Book
3)*** Taking the Mark of the Beast
4)**** Being given over to a reprobate mind

*Matthew 12:31
Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

**Revelation 22:18-19
18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

***Revelation 14:9-10
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

****Romans 1:26-28
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

Well, yeah, just one.

[Alabama358]

Well, yeah, just one.

Do you have some thoughts you would like to share?

[pmer]

You know after reading most of these posts I find myself thinking about the movie series The Chosen and the scene with the Woman at the well. You can tell she's in a bad way she's had a rough life. She's carrying those Empty jugs of water and the load she's carrying is an illustration of the burden that she's trying to deal with. While Jesus is sitting there she begins to argue with him and all along jesus is hoping and pleading that she comes to the realization that Jesus is the messiah. She has nothing of it, her load is heavier now with the jugs full of water and the Lord starts to peel the layers of her life off. In the end her faith is so strong she could've ran off with 6 jugs of water and not looked back.

What do you think would've happened if instead of Jesus being there we were there arguing pre trib, post trib, is a day a day or a day a stretch of time? Giants, destiny. I like these scholars but not those...she probably kept walking to next well. It seems to turn into a type of Ford verses Chevy argument and then we get to a point and say "I'd rather push my Ford than drive a Chevy."

The Gospel is so simple in its beauty. I don't understand every aspect of the Bible but I don't need to either, my faith is sufficient. I get nervous about scholars and people pushing scholars when we all have the same book to look at snd the info is better now because of the dead sea scrolls.

I'm pretty sure these are stumbling blocks designed to create trouble and push people away.

I think Roman's has a great view of destiny and thought it pertained more to the events in the Bible. God's grace is for everyone.

[ioon44]

The Gospel is so simple that a small child can understand it.

[Good Cheer]

Do you have some thoughts you would like to share?

Sure, that the #1 on the list you generated is the one. With repentance we can be forgiven all else.
That would lead us to the question of what comprises #1. What do you think it actually is?

I'm familiar with the concept that #1 is the willful act of refusing to allow the holy spirit to speak through you such as is warned against in Matthew 10 (carries over to 24) and Mark 13. I've never been comfortable with such being the entirety of what is being spoken of as blaspheming against the holy spirit though I've seen the matter presented that way.

[Alabama358]

The Gospel is so simple that a small child can understand it.

100% agree...

That is why I say "it is so simple that one needs the help of an expert or scholar to misunderstand it.

Back in the Marine Corp. we had the KISS system ( Keep It Simple Stupid)

Since becoming a more aged Kinder and Gentler version of my old self I have changed the acronym KISS to (Keep It Simple Sanctified)

1 Corinthians 6:11
11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

[.429&H110]

Scripture is an endless study;

Scripture has endless "rabbitholes" that invite further studies. But beware holes in the trail! If you put your front tire into a hole, all depends how fast you are driving. Slowly bouncing along, you bounce over the holes making note to come back later and explore them. Woe is you when you hit a hole at speed, it will flip you over. Perhaps you need to slow down and ask others for a map, other people have been there before, and been flipped on their roof, so you don't have to wreck yourself.

That is fellowship, we are not made to be alone.

My favorite part of "The woman at the well" is the time of day. Noon in the desert. The other women drew water at dawn, had a hen party, they likely would have thrown rocks at a much-married woman. So our woman at the well at noon was out when everybody else was at siesta, in the heat of the day, alone. Shunned. She meets Jesus, has no idea who He is, finds out.
Then what does she do? She tells everybody, back to the group she goes, Saved.

Am I reading too much into a rabbithole? Maybe.

[Nines&Twos]

Am I reading too much into a rabbithole? Maybe.

I don't think that is possible. You CAN read something into the Word that is not there....but you cannot read too much into it, depth-wise. Scripture is inspired by God and ALL wisdom is His. If God mentions something, you can glean meaning from it all the way down to the molecular level (literally). Take the parable of the fig tree. The etymology knows no bounds...from its surface meaning to the little fig wasps that pollenate the figs...to the coverings made by Adam & Eve. When you think you got a grasp on it...there's more.
God is not the author of confusion or the God of the dead...his word is alive and it grows. .....well, it does for people who can get off the milk. I thank God daily for getting me off the bottle, past the pablum & on to something I can chew on.

[Nines&Twos]

Just one???
1)* Blaspheme the Holy Ghost
2)** Adding to or taking away from the Book
3)*** Taking the Mark of the Beast
4)**** Being given over to a reprobate mind

*Matthew 12:31
Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

**Revelation 22:18-19
18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

***Revelation 14:9-10
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

****Romans 1:26-28
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;



You can almost add criminal homicide to that list. ....Almost as in, I don't think you'll get forgiveness for that one HERE. God wanted murderers executed for a reason. You might get forgiveness for it, I am certainly no judge of that....but God is gonna be brutal on that one & I have to think, HIS ear will be open to the victim and their opinion on it before his decision be made. I could be wrong and cannot document that. ....but if I wrong you in any way, I can make it right with you.....unless you're dead...that tends to complicate the process.

[Good Cheer]

With reference to Revelation 17, in the passages leading up to the mention of the book of life, do you see yet in the world the drunken woman and the beast she is riding?

[Good Cheer]

With reference to Revelation 17, in the passages leading up to the mention of the book of life, do you see yet in the world the drunken woman and the beast she is riding?

PS,
Came back to add this link because it touches upon many facets I've needed to think about.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0Xq0t6pG20

[dverna]

PS,
Came back to add this link because it touches upon many facets I've needed to think about.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0Xq0t6pG20

Good info

[barnabus]

Those are very definitive and Bold Statements as if they were facts...

Was this a personal revelation from the Lord himself to you or just your opinion on the matter?

Saying that the Bible "was not intended to be taken literally" seems a bit thin without any explanation.

thats just his opinion cuz the bible says no such thing.

[Good Cheer]

An interesting brief on old Earth versus new Earth.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E17yNiBrisc

[ioon44]

An interesting brief on old Earth versus new Earth.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E17yNiBrisc

Yep, interesting, I have the book but haven't got it all read yet, I don't know how much is in the book that is not covered by different interviews she has done, readding is not my strong suite.