The Lead Tsunami

[BruceB]

My friend NVCurmudgeon has long recommended casting in the standing position "for a fast escape". Wise words indeed, and a recommendation which I followed until fairly recently.

Lately, my feet have been getting more and more sensitive due to diabetes, and I find I simply can't stand for long periods. I've taken to sitting on a high stool which positions me nicely for casting. Unfortunately, when I sit in front of my pot there's a wall immediately to my right, and the water bucket sits close-by on a chair to my left. In other words, I am tightly hemmed-in with no quick way out.

What to do? If I can't "escape" in a hurry, I'd best protect myself, right? It became normal routine to drape a leather welder's jacket over my lap when I sat down to cast....and it paid off, BIG TIME.

I was sitting in front of a nearly-full RCBS pot, adding another pre-heated ingot to the melt, when something went wrong and I somehow dropped the 3-pound ingot into the full pot. A WAVE of molten alloy, at least two pounds worth, came over the front edge and landed literally in my lap...my leather-covered lap!

Gents, if not for that protective leather, I would have had third-degree burns all over my thighs, groin and lower abdomen. As it was....NO injuries, or even discomfort. I peeled one single piece of alloy off that jacket which weighed easily a full pound, and smaller bits of splash were everywhere on the leather.

As a result of this incident, I'm now going to buy a leather welder's apron, which I see on the Internet for as little as $25-$35. Please guys, I strongly suggest that y'all follow suit. That is truly cheap insurance. After casting for forty years without notable problems, just in the last short while I've had a live primer in the furnace, and now this lead flood in my lap. It CAN happen to even the most-experienced (or pure dumb unlucky) among us. The bib-type apron will extend the protection further up one's body than my jacket-on-the-lap does.

Take heed, amigos.

[Tom Herman]

Your good common sense wearing the leather apron really saved the day...

Happy Shootin'! -Tom

[NSP64]

Glad your OK Bruce.

[NoDakJak]

Bruce, sure glad to see that you had the good sense to use the leather. I cringe when I read the insanity of these folks casting wearing Tee shirts, shorts and sandals. They just don't seem to realize that they are playing with something that can maim them for life. Good luck. Neil

[2TN Mules]

Very glad to hear your ok. I do believe your giving GREAT advice. Very little cost for a lot of protection!

[Kraschenbirn]

Bruce...

Glad to hear you're okay, guy. I haven't cast/smelted without an apron, long pants, and leather shoes since dumping a 4# ladle of melted WWs between pot and ingot mould back in my younger and dumber days. Don't use leather but just got a new "firehose" canvas shop apron (from Duluth Trading Co.) to replace my old denim carpenter's apron.

Bill

[mooman76]

I do stand when I cast. Not for a fast escape but because it is easier to move and cast faster. The quick escape part is just an added beenie. I got some of those soft foam rubber mats that piece together from Big Lots for pretty cheap. They help some. I'm getting up there too and it does bother me a bit to stand too long.

[STP22]

My denim shop apron I wear when I put my Pro-Melt on the bench to do the same is little protection. I figure I can scoot up and backwards fast if need be. But the thought of accidently letting an ingot drop in the pot and avoiding the molten wave gives me pause...

Lesser incidents in front of the pot has taught me that with each session, I`m going to "get it" so to speak, no matter how careful I am. Same goes with using bismuth...in spades.

Glad your OK Bruce.

[ept000]

WOW! Glad you were not hurt. Always room for more safety!

[BeeMan]

Bruce, I'm very glad you were uninjured. Thank you for sharing.

I've had a nagging feeling recently that I need more protection when casting. A leather apron is now going to be a requirement for casting, just like saw chaps are when running the chain saw. PPE usually costs less than the co-pay and is a lot less painful.

BeeMan

[Recluse]

Bruce, very wise words.

I guess I've come full circle. When I started off, I wore everything except for a welder's hood and oxygen regulator. Got to the point over time that I would be down to levis and a t-shirt. Started getting older and started getting more chicken (or smarter?) and began protecting myself better.

Funny you should post this as I'm in the process of shopping for a welder's apron for another project--but it will obviously have multi-purposes.

Again, very very glad you're okay. Been reading your stuff for several years and have learned a hell of a lot from you.

:coffee:

[cohutt]

Glad you are ok.

I learned my lesson last fall when I took one on the ankle; it took 5 weeks after the injury to know for sure i wasn't going to have to get grafts.

[bobk]

Never let it be said that Bruce can't get the lead out. :kidding: It does make me examine some of the stupid things I do, when in a hurry. I was busy today, but wanted to squeeze in a casting session. That sort of haste can lead to accidents. Thanks for the lesson.

Bob K

[Flinchrock]

Very glad to hear your ok. I do believe your giving GREAT advice. Very little cost for a lot of protection!

Yeah,,man,,awful hard to start runnin' fast when yer sittin' down!!

[RustyFN]

Good on you Bruce for taking that extra safety step. I glad you didn't get hurt and thanks for sharing that.
Rusty

[madcaster]

Be careful Bruce,we NEED you around!

[SteelyNirvana]

Glad your okay. As I newbie to the hobby, I'm glad that I came across your post. I never thought of wearing an apron in case of a mishap until now. You never know, reading this post could be saving me (Or someone else) years from now some serious burns.

[Bigjohn]

Bruce, Thanks for the 'Heads up', mate. Glad to hear that it saved you from severe burns.

Due to my height (and width), I will need to make one up. I need to sit due to a lower back problem.

John

[Charlie Sometimes]

Once, many years ago, I had just put another preheated ingot into the pot. I was using a ladle dipper at the time and had just stirred the melt and was ready to flux. I was just about to skim the top when I noticed the whole top of the melt gradually bulging! I realized what was happening and threw up my arms- crossed. I was wearing a very heavy sweat shirt, leather gloves, and not much else for protection, except my glasses. I had automatically closed my eyes when it happened, and when I opened them, I had mirrors on the lenses! I tried to separate my arms- it was extremely difficult to pull them apart as they were welded together with the lead from the pot. I managed to peel off everything and put it back into the pot, and the stuff on my glasses (actual glass). 90% was stopped by my arms and chest. About 3 lb gone from a 5 lb pot, I guess. My beard got singed good, but otherwise I was okay.
There must have been an air bubble in the ingot is all I could figure, as I had preheated the metal well. I was standing up, too. You can never be totally prepared. It can happen anytime.
I never, EVER will forget that!

Everybody stay safe.

[Crash_Corrigan]

I sprang for about twenty five bucks a few months ago and bought a leather apron from CHEAPER THAN DIRT.com.

It was only 19.95 but with shippping and such added to the cost. CHEAP INSURANCE. It reposes on top of the lead furnace and is worn whenever it is in use.

I am a slow healer and I do not like burns of any kind. We are hobbiest's who are messing with dangerous stuff:

Molten Lead, explosive primers and highly inflammable propellants.

Mix in a little alcohol, add some inattention, a dash of preoccupation and the ever present distractions of being a member of a family and community and it is a wonder we haven't blown up or burned down the neighborhood many times over.

Have you ever been so focused on a task that when the cell phone rings in your pocket you are totally suprised and jerk a bit? I have, so I leave the phone in another room where I cannot hear it. NO TV! NO PETS~KIDS!

I will never live down casting 6,000 boolits using a Lee 6 banger without handles but I have learned not to take unecessary chances and stupid risks without giving myself every advantage possible.

Health and vitality become more precious and endearing when approaching the golden years. Getting old generally is not for sissies and it does vacuum badly.

[Frank46]

yep that diabetic neuropathy gets you every time. Can't sit down for long periods of time, can't stand up for long periods of time. Feet hurt like the blazes even when they are elevated. Now CRS is even worse. Ever stand in the center of a room trying to figure out what you are doing? or why you are there in the first place.Heck I can tell you stuff that happened 30 years ago. ask me what I had for lunch, and you get that 1000yd stare. Frank

[DragoonDrake]

I wear a heavy denim full length shirt, double or triple thick jeans (old and were first bought for dove and grouse hunting), welding gloves and leather boots.
The reason for this is one of the first days casting i was wearing a tee shirt and welding gloves. Well I water-drop and i guess I had a drop of water bounce into the pot and the next thing I know is that I hear an explosion and there is lead everywhere; including on my pants, gloves and arms. I was not burned badly, just those stupid white speck spots and the reminder is that I have spots on my arms that hair does not grow. So now everything is covered except the face (tried a face mask but could not see with the glasses fogging up).

As a side note, I still water-drop but have added a piece of cloth with a hole in it above the bucket and tied down to the bucket. Have not had a problem since I have made the clothing and bucket adjustments.
Adam

[waksupi]

Jeez, Bruce, don't do that kinda stuff!

[Springfield]

JUst remember, no matter how fast you are, you can't brush off a molten piece of lead fast enought to NOT get burned. It isn't hot water at 212, it is molten lead at 650. Big difference. I should get an apron myself, the levi's might not be enough. And I sit when I cast, when I relaod too. Just always been that way.

[Three44s]

Giving me the Hebe jebe's ..........

Glad to here you're OKAY Bruce!

Three 44s

[HeavyMetal]

For those looking for Leather apron's and such, try Harbor Freight.

Years ago I was doing some floor pan replacement on an old Ford and was going through shirts pretty quick. Don't remember what I was in HF for but stumbled across a complete kit in the bag, apron and welding gloves! $20.00 as I recall, still have'm and still use'm!

[Buckshot]

..............I think I'll just move my casting stuff to the mom in laws. That way I can cast while 90% submerged in her jacuzzi :-) Funny how after all these years something like that crops up, isn't it? Just like the old muzzle loader edict, "If ya ain't shot your ramrod out yet you just haven't been muzzle loading long enough yet."

................Buckshot

[bobk]

Frank46,
Making a WAG, I'd say one of your blood pressure medicines is a beta blocker. This causes the CRS; at work we call it "beta blocker stupid." I suspect, based upon my own experience, that too tight a control of BP, with any medication, causes blood sugar to go out of whack. See the Mayo Clinic website for info on how beta blockers cap your HDL (the "good") cholesterol, and elevate triglycerides, also. None of this stuff is without side effects, and it sounds like you have a couple of them.

Bob K

[Bret4207]

Glad you're okay Bruce. I tried casting from a sitting position. Can't do it, no way. Can't really operate a press sitting either. Somethings I was just built to do standing.

Crash brought up another thing. While I don't strictly adhere to "safety first" as a religious mantra, the idea someone would consume alcohol and cast or reload boggles my mind. That is a definite no-no in my book.

[cajun shooter]

I have to sit down because of the 4 bad disc and this inplanted pain pump that keeps me going. I have cast bullets since 1971, not steady but with 2-4 year voids. I've casted in light clothing while at home in my shop. A month back a splatter from a ingot with water gave me a light coating of lead. The cloth apron was of no help as it was to the side. I burned a hole in the light shorts I was wearing. I think the time for a leather apron is here. Old Dogs can be taught new tricks.

[Wayne Smith]

Be especially aware of clothing made with artificial fibers, most notably rayon and such. They will melt away and leave you completely exposed to the lead. I've had denim stop splashes but I wouldn't want to trust it with a flood.

I cast with a pot on a 2-burner Coleman stove so any wave has a ways to go before it hits me, and I'm standing, too. Leather shoes, though, not sneakers!

[runfiverun]

distance is your friend here.
i use a scoop i made from a piece of sheet metal bent into a squared off u shape and then set it on the pot to act as a lid,
i might have to clean the bench occasionally but it helps.....a lot.
i set my sprues on top of it when casting then dump them back in when i get a few built up.
this is also a good place to put my molds when heating the pot so they don't sit in the melt.

[montana_charlie]

One can't read this whole thread without reconsidering his clothing choices.
Although the seasons for the Midsummer Festival and the harvest moon are still months away, I will immediately start watching eBay for a new...leather...cavorting thong!
CM

[Charlie Sometimes]

Natural fibers, and leather, is all you should be wearing- unless you have access to some of the new heat and flash resistant clothing like NOMEX or such. That stuff ain't cheap. Even then, I'd prefer natural cotton best. It's comfortable- just make it thick, and add the leather- no lace, guys. :roll:

[TCLouis]

Not sure, but I think I suffered first dgree burns just reading about that little incident.

[BruceB]

Many thanks for all the comments.

Thinking back over this thread and the incident itself, I seem to recall that one poster nailed the consequences perfectly, in just one phrase: "LIFE-CHANGING". Third-degree burns in ANY area of the body are catastrophic, but in the groin/abdomen/thigh area, death is a strong possibility and crippling even more likely. Vital veins and arteries, as well as neural systems, run very close to the surface in this area. This is precisely the area of my cancer concerns of the last year, and believe me, I studied-up on the zone! It also doesn't take a lurid imagination to visualize the effect of a lead bath on the genitals.

Protect yourselves!

Today I went to our local NORCO shop, which supplies most of our area mining operations with welding needs and specialized gases. On their shelf, I found a 24"x42" leather apron, which I glommed for the princely sum of $43.00. This is a bit more than I would have had to pay on the Internet, but once shipping etc. is taken into account, there isn't much difference. In addition, not only do I have a piece of quality work which I had a chance to inspect before buying, but I also kept the money in the local economy. Best of all, I have it NOW.

The cost of the apron would be almost comically inexpensive...if the lack of protection wasn't so serious.

I was very fortunate in anticipating the POSSIBILITY of a problem...a problem which had never manifested itself in my decades of casting. I was "sort-of" protected when the disaster arrived, and thank Heaven my ad-lib leather shield worked. I am now much better-protected......

ARE YOU??????

[ozzy1038]

I got a leather welders apron at harbor freight for $10.00. It seems to be pretty well made and plenty thick. Cheap insurance I say.

[SharpsShooter]

I have to sit to cast and reload, so I can attest to some of the dangers. I use a chair with good rollers along with apron, gloves and eye protection. My shop has a smooth wood floor and the chair rolls easily. I also set up the benches to allow freedom of movement and do not cast unless there is a avenue of escape. That means no clutter on the floor period. A little planning can save you major damage and pain.

Glad you survived it Bruce.

SS

[TDC]

Speaking as an "Oldbie" returning recently to casting as a "Newbie," this thread should be made a sticky.

Those of us who have felt the sting and terror of a serious lead splash will recognize how important all forms of protection are to us, especially to newbies who haven't considered the potential dangers ...

Excellent advice here that should be trumpeted loudly and often. First hand testimonials like these are listened to, understood, and the solutions for protection initiated when the dangers are made so clear.....

Terry

[tomf52]

Harbor Freight has leather welder's aprons for about $10. Funny thing was I was just thinking about getting one for casting. Will definetly do it now!

[Mk42gunner]

Glad your are okay Bruce.

This brings to mind one of my somewhat embarrassing "oh ####" moments. I was welding side bunks on my boat trailer, (makes it a lot easier to load the boat in current), when I managed to catch the grass under it on fire. Let me tell you it is not easy to stomp out a fire under a boat.

The point is I was wearing jungle boots at the time. Sparks easily penetrate nylon foot wear; so would molten lead.

I am not saying that we need to be slaves to safety, but to think about what can go wrong.


Robert

[NoDakJak]

Frank46, you just described all my symptems so don't feel alone! During my long and varied career I spent ten years doing considerable welding. After I became disabled I went back to school and spent the next five years as a Safety Consultant and teaching Industrial Safety classes. Safety Rules for Welding and molten metals are basically the same. Eye safety is paramount! A glob of molten lead in the eye is guarnteed to ruin your day. Safety glasses as a minumum. Face shield is even better. It may keep a 750 degree glob of molten lead from turning a small amount of the liquid in your eyeball to steam. Do not wear nylon or similar man made materials as they can and will melt and stick to your body causing severe burns in their own right. It is best to wear Wool, Cotton or leather protective clothes. Long sleeves and long trousers. If you would like a promising career displaying your heavily scarred feet in a Circus sideshow then I suggest that you use sandals or footgear made of manmade materials. Footgear that is moten and stuck to your feet is very painful and causes a large amount of damage whenever the medics are trying to remove them from your feet and ankles. The rest of us are much better off wearing leather shoes or boots. Make sure that these are covered by your trouser legs or apron. A gaping shoe top can act as a funnel to molten metal. I have a neat scar on the inside of my right ankle to prove that statement. Before I could get my shoe off it had cooked a quarter sized piece of meat all the way to the bone. Try to avoid footgear that has a moccasin toe as molten metal will puddle on it and cause burns. All of this is just common sense if a person just takes the time to think about it. Just use a little care and common sense and casting is a fairly safe hobby. Neil

[Jaybird62]

Glad to hear you're okay, Bruce. Since my learning curve is rather steep at this point, your experience will probably safe me a mishap one day. I'll be sure to wear my welder's apron during my next casting session. Thanks for the heads up.

[Bobby Ironsights]

Thanks Bruce, it's important, probably more important to hear about mistakes, than about successes. Keeps us all mindful.

[dudits]

reviving this old thread

just read through it and am glad ya ended up ok. that would have been some mighty bad burns.

i have a burn on my left arm from glassblowing. a tube of 1100 degree glass came into contact with my left arm. it melted the fleece hoodie i was wearing into the flesh. burn was all the way to the bone.
i normally wear
carhart work pants "they are pretty thick"
a long sleeve shirt
a winter hat that has flaps that cover ears
and a face shield

thanks to this thread i will now be adding a leather apron to my gear

[Matt_G]

I'm glad you did revive it. I had missed this the first time around.
I went and bought one of those welder apron's yesterday after reading this thread.
Only 10 bucks at harbor freight...

[Iowa Fox]

Harbor Freight is the best place to get a leather apron. Wait for them to go on sale, use a 20% off coupon and get a free set of screwdrivers.

[383]

After reading this thread, I'm adding a leather apron to my list of PPE. I don't want this new hobby of my to be a short one.

[JakeBlanton]

Natural fibers, and leather, is all you should be wearing- unless you have access to some of the new heat and flash resistant clothing like NOMEX or such. That stuff ain't cheap. Even then, I'd prefer natural cotton best. It's comfortable- just make it thick, and add the leather- no lace, guys. :roll:

It's not just whether the material is flameproof, but how much insulation it provides. Sure, you don't want a material that is going to melt since once it has melted, it provides NO insulating capability. You want something that will give you a couple of seconds at least of time before the heat makes it to YOU so that you can shed the clothing if necessary or it will allow the molten metal to splash into a larger surface area and cool off quicker. I am of the belief that loose protective clothing is better since it allows an air gap that has the potential to reduce the heat transfer.

[dikman]

Being a newbie, I wasn't aware of this "old" thread, so resurrecting it from time-to-time is a good idea. The OP's problem, as I see it, could have been avoided if he was standing when putting in the new ingot. I guess we all get comfortable with doing things a particular way, especially when we haven't had any problems, but after reading this I'll be damned sure that I'll be standing when dropping in new ingots! And then sit down.

[BruceB]

I am he original poster.

In the opening post, I referred to my problems with diabetic neuropathy and other complications.

Since the original post, I have lost my left leg just below the knee and about 1/3 of my right foot, since diabetes cut off circulation and led to gangrene in my lower extremities. The last bullet I cast or loaded was in January of 2012, and I haven't even seen the inside of my loading shed since then.

I am gradually starting to "walk" using a four-footed "walker", and hope to soon begin real walking , maybe with canes.... IF my remaining partial foot will heal-up. I have a prosthetic left 'leg' now and it seems like a decent item. Just yesterday I saw my surgeon, and there are still post-operative problems with a couple sites on the foot. It may require another operation.

It's safe to say that I won't be standing up to cast, assuming I ever get back to it. Leather, here I come!

Protective gear is a good idea, as long as we don't get carried-away to the point that "safety" actually IMPEDES the accomplishment of the task. I've seen that problem in industry, and it's very frustrating to those trying to get something done.

"Moderation in all things".... still a good concept.

[bangerjim]

Bruce.............good luck with your battle with the disease. It can be devastating. I have it and keep everything in the normal range. But many people have it and do not know until it is too late.

take care and hope you can get back to your hobby soon!

I sit down in front of my backyard shop with my pot clamped to a Workmate and sit on a nice padded glider to cast. I have a HF leather apron on! And a big outdoor evap. Very comparable under the big tree.....even in the AZ summers.

bangerjim

[oscarflytyer]

For those looking for Leather apron's and such, try Harbor Freight.

Years ago I was doing some floor pan replacement on an old Ford and was going through shirts pretty quick. Don't remember what I was in HF for but stumbled across a complete kit in the bag, apron and welding gloves! $20.00 as I recall, still have'm and still use'm!

Went to HF yesterday after reading this. They have the kit for $20. I already have the welding gloves. They also sell just a split leather welding apron for $10! Got one of those!

[John Allen]

I always wear a leather apron when casting along with a welders hat and full face mask. You just never know it can happen to anyone.

[JakeBlanton]

I always wear a leather apron when casting along with a welders hat and full face mask. You just never know it can happen to anyone.

I saw a guy once that had installed a small piece of glass in front of his casting pot -- probably about the size of a letter size piece of paper, maybe a bit smaller. He said that he didn't like wearing a face shield due to the heat, vision distortion, and it fogging up when he was casting. His reasoning was that any splashes coming his way would be shielded by the glass and he could still reach around it to add an ingot to the pot. It looked like it would probably work unless the lead splatter took a high ballistic trajectory and came over the top of it.

Personally, I'm more inclined to wear a bit more personal protective gear when I'm smelting than when I'm just casting.

[dikman]

Bruce, under the circumstances my previous comment may have seemed a little harsh, if so I apologize. Given your situation I can see where standing is probably not an option. I can only give you my best wishes for a suitable recovery which may enable you to get back into the hobby.

This thread is still a very good warning to all about the dangers of what we are doing.

I like bangerjim's idea - setting up under a tree outside sounds very relaxing! I may try the same thing myself.

[Garyshome]

I really should get an apron. And put away the flip flops [just a joke] and maybe a face shield [not a joke].