Tumble lube bullets

[delftshooter]

Ive been wondering on how well tumble lube bullets actually work.Considering they come in 357 and 44 magnum varieties. I managed to see one in person and the grooves truly are "micro".

The bullets are over sized by design, the lube grooves are microscopic. SO just how well are they going to do to create good lubrication in the barrel?

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

delftshooter,
welcome to the forum.

They do good.
My experience has been that the Lee TL molds I bought, will drop a boolit close to advertised size, where the other Lee molds I've bought usually drop a wee bit larger.
IMHO, Lee's Alox TL doesn't really need grooves.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

"just how well are they going to do to create good lubrication in the barrel?"

Check this out.
http://www.lasc.us/FryxellLubeCastBullets.htm

[delftshooter]

"just how well are they going to do to create good lubrication in the barrel?"

Check this out.
http://www.lasc.us/FryxellLubeCastBullets.htm

if i understand the linked material, i could simply buy a container of myly based soft lube, use a rag on a stick and smear my bore down with it before shooting and no lead would ever stick to it.

But we all know that isnt quite the real facts of life...

We have confllicting sources on lube knowledge. Only printed one i have is the lyman cast handbook 4. Going by THAT,, none of my commercial bullets with carnauba red lube have been doing their job in terms of leading due to no lube ring on the muzzle.

[243winxb]

Lube rings take about 50 rounds to form with harder lubes, if at all. The 50/50 of years past was made with a different Alox.
Lube has not been the same since.

I am using RCBS pistol lube now. They make a different 1 for rifles.

Have no TL molds. Have used Lee Liquid Alox on standard cast. Or sized/lubed with Lyman 450.

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?media/lube-star-rcbs-pistol-lube-200-rounds-fired.3286/full

[delftshooter]

but if the lube star is the sign the lube is working correctly,, how does one know if the high tech fancy stuff even works

[243winxb]

Accuracy will go away with real bad leading, if lube is not working at all. The worst leading i have see is factory swaged bullete in a .354" undersize bore of a 357 magnum. Lite target loads.

Some lubes are just to hard.

https://lsstuff.com/faqs

I like the 50/50 from here. Have not tried the others.

I need a heater for both lubes. RCBS & lsstuff.

[Dusty Bannister]

but if the lube star is the sign the lube is working correctly,, how does one know if the high tech fancy stuff even works

If your current lube or method of protecting against leading results in a silver star on the muzzle, or accuracy has fallen off, that is a pretty reliable indication your lube has failed. If you have leading in the barrel, at the muzzle then the lube you are using is not up to the pressure or velocity of your load. Contradicting opinions are not unusual.

[hc18flyer]

The above is good info. My experience has been very good in both pistols and lower velocity rifles with 'bll' and powder coating. My bll uses Lundmarks liquid wax, Lee alox, and lighter fluid. 2 or 3 light coats and overnight dry. I guess I like pc better, no drying time, perfect coating lasts forever. I also have an RCBS Lam 2 for mostly rifles.
As others have said, 'fitment is king, to prevent leading. I also use a fairly soft 9-11 bhn for pistol bullets, but I don't go much above 1000 fps. hc18flyer

[BobT]

I tumble lube my plinking boolits (Lee TL452-200-SWC) for my .45ACP 1911 pistols, no problems so far with more than a few down the bore.

[delftshooter]

The above is good info. My experience has been very good in both pistols and lower velocity rifles with 'bll' and powder coating. My bll uses Lundmarks liquid wax, Lee alox, and lighter fluid. 2 or 3 light coats and overnight dry. I guess I like pc better, no drying time, perfect coating lasts forever. I also have an RCBS Lam 2 for mostly rifles.
As others have said, 'fitment is king, to prevent leading. I also use a fairly soft 9-11 bhn for pistol bullets, but I don't go much above 1000 fps. hc18flyer

if a person has perfect or near perfect bullet fitment, do you think BHN 11 is insufficient for velocities over 900fps? The bullets i have been using have all been stated as BHN 11 to 13, and commercially lubricated most often with carnauba red or green. Its sometimes still on bullets i pull from the dirt pile i shoot into.

but at velocities that book claims is 8-1200 they all have leading

[243winxb]

Lube still on bullets when pulled from the dirt pile, is a bad sign to me. Put a coating of Lee Liquid Alox over the whole bullet. No need to remove any red/blue lubes.

Powder choice may cause leading. In 357 & 44 mag slow powder burn rates are better.
Alliant 2400 for 357 mag. , IMR4227 or Alliant Unique or W296/H110 for 44.

Stay away fron Bullseye, 231 fast powders.

[hc18flyer]

delftshooter- I think 11-13 is more than adequate for 1100 fps. I would use gas checks above that, other folks may be successful going higher? You can typically go softer if you powder coat too. hc18flyer

[delftshooter]

Lube still on bullets when pulled from the dirt pile, is a bad sign to me. Put a coating of Lee Liquid Alox over the whole bullet. No need to remove any red/blue lubes.

Powder choice may cause leading. In 357 & 44 mag slow powder burn rates are better.
Alliant 2400 for 357 mag. , IMR4227 or Alliant Unique or W296/H110 for 44.

Stay away fron Bullseye, 231 fast powders.

my 357 doesnt like bullseye anyway, havent used 231 yet. plan on it soon as i can load some rounds this week.

did not get great accuracy with 2400

[Larry Gibson]

if a person has perfect or near perfect bullet fitment, do you think BHN 11 is insufficient for velocities over 900fps? The bullets i have been using have all been stated as BHN 11 to 13, and commercially lubricated most often with carnauba red or green. Its sometimes still on bullets i pull from the dirt pile i shoot into.

but at velocities that book claims is 8-1200 they all have leading

The hard wax lubes many commercial casters use is more useful at keeping the lube in the grooves during shipment than to lube the bore correctly. It's why they lead the bore, the BHN has little to do with it. If you've still got and use the commercial cast get a bottle of LLA and give them a light coat. A light golden hue is all that's needed. No need to remove the old lube] and let them dry completely before loading. I've been using LLA on commercial cast for many years and it almost always eliminates the leading.

I use several Lee TL bullets for velocities in the 700 to 1100 fps and most often lube them with LLA. I do not get any leading. O shoot numerous GC cast bullets of 40-1 alloy [BHN of 6 - 7] which are normal grooved bullets at 800 - 1100 fps that are lubed with just LLA in several rifles. I get no leading at all.

[Bigslug]

"Lube" isn't so much of a lube for bullets as a gasket material to help seal the bore and prevent flame-cutting past the base of the bullet. You need enough to stay with the bullet through its trip down the barrel, but with good bullet fit, you can get by with surprisingly little.

The trick I've found - with handguns - is not to run too hard an alloy with them. I was getting lead streaks with wheelweight alloy down in my 600 to 1100 fps range. Softened things up to about 10-11 BHN and so far, so good. A hotter magnum load will probably get proper obturation and sealing with the harder metal, but I've largely stopped playing there. I do run a custom-cut plain base TL mold (Accurate 32-155D) to around 1500 fps in a rechambered Martini Cadet and wheelweight-class metal works great.

For rifles, my main TL mold is the NOE Ranch Dog TL310-178*RF for the .308 Win. Gas checks get installed with a push-through sizer and then they get lubed. GREAT bullet to 2000 fps+

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

be sure to read post #9

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?17538-Head-scratcher-How-does-lube-work

[ACC]

Ive been wondering on how well tumble lube bullets actually work.Considering they come in 357 and 44 magnum varieties. I managed to see one in person and the grooves truly are "micro".

The bullets are over sized by design, the lube grooves are microscopic. SO just how well are they going to do to create good lubrication in the barrel?

Been tumble lubing for years. My 9mm,40S&W, 38 Specials, 357 mag leave no leading. I wouldn't use it if it did. Now my rifle is something else. I cast it in the 18 BHN range and powder coat. I feel with all the shooting I do it takes too long to powder coat handgun boolits.

ACC

[delftshooter]

Lube rings take about 50 rounds to form with harder lubes, if at all. The 50/50 of years past was made with a different Alox.
Lube has not been the same since.

I am using RCBS pistol lube now. They make a different 1 for rifles.

Have no TL molds. Have used Lee Liquid Alox on standard cast. Or sized/lubed with Lyman 450.

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?media/lube-star-rcbs-pistol-lube-200-rounds-fired.3286/full

that is how the forcing cone of my revolvers looked after 2 cylinders each today. 14 rounds of sellor bellot 38 hbwc loads, very very accurate. And two cylinders of red dot and matts 240 swc.

I wish the lewis rod adapter for forcing cone actually worked on my 357, gotta pull the bore adapter into the cone and just twirl it. gets a pile of glitter out, but not cleaning anything. But the 44 one really cleans the rifling off, but not the bottom of the grooves for some reason.

[Bazoo]

I use homemade tumble lube consisting of a bottle of Alox and a can of Johnson's Paste Wax. I have used straight Alox, but I don't like how it stays slightly tacky. How does it work? Not as good as a soft traditional lube like 50/50. I've used it for a lot of full power 45 ACP.

As for alloy, a 11-13 BHN allow will handle Magnum pressure, provided it's fit well with good lube. It probably won't handle magnum pressure with Alox. Straight wheel weights is 11-12 and I run that for full bore 357 Magnum without a gas check, but with White Lable 50/50 lube.

I also run ww alloy in full pressure 30-30 using gas checked bullets and 50/50. I have run it full pressure with Alox lube as well (gas checked) and the Alox worked. My accuracy was similar if not the same, and there wasn't any leading.

The micro grooves hold a pretty good amount of lube. I run my Ranch Dog CTL432-265-RF (https://bulletmatch.com/bullets/ranch-dog-ctl432-265-rf) through my lubesizer. I size them first in a Lee push through sizer to apply gas checks, then lube in my Lyman 450.

https://i.postimg.cc/mk69PLXz/lee-ranch-dog-ctl432-265-rf-693.jpg (https://bulletmatch.com/bullets/ranch-dog-ctl432-265-rf)

[Forrest r]

my 357 doesnt like bullseye anyway, havent used 231 yet. plan on it soon as i can load some rounds this week.

did not get great accuracy with 2400

Too bad, bullseye has held it's own in every 357 I've ever owned (10+).

Playing around doing ladder tests with bullseye and different cast/pc'd bullets (8/9bhn) @ 25yds, 6-shot groups.
4 different 6-shot groups
5.5gr and 6.0gr loads
3 different cast bullets
groups 1 1/4" or less
https://i.imgur.com/9YSO2RC.jpg

5.5gr & 6.0gr loads
4 different groups
2 different cast/pc'd bullets (8/9bhn)
6-shot groups @ 50yds
2 3/16" or less groups
https://i.imgur.com/CfpwHXk.jpg

Nothing more than mixed range brass blammo ammo. The groups get tighter when I use sorted (new/1x/2x) starline brass.

[Forrest r]

A couple years ago I did head to head testing with the lee 312 160gr tl bullet in a 308w. Traditionally lubed vs pc'd
https://i.imgur.com/I2jt2AW.jpg

The traditionally lubed bullets were lubed with LBT soft blue lube. I did 10-shot groups @ 100yds using 14bhn cast bullets. I didn't get any leading but the accuracy got worse as the pressures/velocities increased.
https://i.imgur.com/y5CttId.jpg?1

Took the same lubed bullets and added 2 coats of 45/45/10 tumble lube and re-tested. That same 37gr load with the traditional lube + 2x 45/45/10 lube.
https://i.imgur.com/x4M2uh5.jpg?1

What the muzzle/lube star on the rifle looked like.
https://i.imgur.com/bydam1r.jpg

[kenrh]

I can and did drive my 357 magnums to 1375 fps all day long with the Johnson Wax TL and never problem with leading.