12ga Slug Brinell Harness for Different Velocities?

[More_Slugs]

Hello Everyone! New member here.

I am new to casting and have everything that I need to start this great skill set.

My question is, what is the ideal Brinell hardness for 12ga slugs?

Should it be different for different velocities (ie. subsonic versus 1200 - 1600 fps versus 1600+ fps)?

I have:
20# of Antimonial Lead (RotoMetals)
10# of Foundry (RotoMetals)
50# of Lino and Mono (auction site)
5gal bucket full of WW's

Not sure if it matters, but I'll be shooting a semi-auto 12ga, and I also powder coat with Prismatic Powders.
Thanks in advance for your time and knowledge!

[schutzen-jager]

jmho - Foster or Lee type slugs soft lead especially if to be used in tight choked barrels -

[W.R.Buchanan]

I use plain Wheel Weights for everything. Some recommend "pure lead" for Slugs. I personally don't think it makes much difference and I've had pretty good results from WW. Lee 1 oz slugs, Lyman style 525 slugs and Round Balls.

Randy

[longbow]

Definitely soft lead for Lyman Foster slugs as they are so much undersize that they have to swell up to fill the bore to get any sort of accuracy. For Lyman sabot slugs and Lee slugs I don't htink it much matters from what I have read.

I don't have the Lyman sabot slug but do have both Lee slug moulds and several home made slug moulds that work well and I cast using ACWW for the most part.

I have recovered other people's Lyman sabot slugs from the berm and the soft ones are short and fat with a length of cylindrical skirt they shorten so much. I'd recommend fill hollow base slugs to stop excessive shortening of the skirt and to keep wads from blowing into the hollow cavity.

Most factory Foster slugs are full bore and soft lead but Gualandi DGS slugs and Brenneke slugs are full bore and hard lead.

To try to more directly answer your question, for an undersize slug like the Lyman Foster or if you are shooting through a tight choke it is best to go with pure or at least very soft lead. If you are shooting wad slugs or full bore slugs through cylinder bore or an I/C choke I don't think hardness much matters. I agree with Randy that ACWW should work just fine.

As for terminal performance, soft lead Foster slugs tend to flatten out a lot and may not penetrate well for hunting. A harder alloy would be better in that case.

I hope that helps some.

Longbow

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jmho - Foster or Lee type slugs soft lead especially if to be used in tight choked barrels -

I have the 12ga 7/8oz Lee Key Drive slug mold, and the Svarog Botfly slug mold.

No chokes, just a smooth-bore cylinder barrel.

[More_Slugs]

I use plain Wheel Weights for everything. Some recommend "pure lead" for Slugs. I personally don't think it makes much difference and I've had pretty good results from WW. Lee 1 oz slugs, Lyman style 525 slugs and Round Balls.

Randy

So a Brinell of roughly 13 has been good. Thanks, Randy! What wads are you using for the Lyman?

[More_Slugs]

Longbow, I appreciate your time and the information.

I have 50 DGS slugs that I powder coated and looking forward to shooting.

I have the 12ga 7/8oz Lee Key Drive slug mold, and the Svarog Botfly slug mold.

No chokes, just a smooth-bore cylinder barrel.

I have a 5gal bucket of WW to cast. I also have 25# of Antimonial lead ingots, 50# of mixed Linotype and Monotype printing press type, and 20# of Foundry ingots

[243winxb]

Pure lead for slugs-

Choke in gun, more important. Skeet or I/C. Alloy for rifled barrel & choke, pure lead.

Pure will allow slugs to expand to the bores diameter. (Lee Key drive slug)

[More_Slugs]

Pure lead for slugs-

Choke in gun, more important. Skeet or I/C. Alloy for rifled barrel & choke, pure lead.

Pure will allow slugs to expand to the bores diameter. (Lee Key drive slug)

Thanks!

My understanding is pure/soft for Lee Key Drive slug, and alloy for the Russian Botfly so that the segments break off in soft tissue like they're designed.

[243winxb]

Shotgun damaged using Lyman #2 alloy. https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=617861

Poor quality shotgun OR to tight of a choke?

SAAMI shotgun info.https://saami.org/technical-informat...ami-standards/

Choke Constrictions listed for different lead & Non-Lead materials.
Lead .031"
Non-Lead .005"
For both, Less is better. Maximums listed.

Basic- the harder the alloy, less constriction wanted.

[More_Slugs]

Shotgun damaged using Lyman #2 alloy. https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=617861

Poor quality shotgun OR to tight of a choke?

SAAMI shotgun info.https://saami.org/technical-informat...ami-standards/

Choke Constrictions listed for different lead & Non-Lead materials.
Lead .031"
Non-Lead .005"
For both, Less is better. Maximums listed.

Basic- the harder the alloy, less constriction wanted.

Again....NO choke. None!
Just cylinder bore aka smooth bore.

[243winxb]

Missed the no choke. I am thinking, pure lead, so the slug can expand to the bore?

But do coated slugs expand?

You have some testing to do.

[longbow]

I have had good results using ACWW for both Lee 7/8 oz. and 1 oz. slugs in cylinder bore. If the wad petal thickness with the slug is snug in the bore they will shoot fine. I agree with 243winxb about soft lead if the slug/wad fit is loose to bore because they will slug up some to fit the bore better if soft. Alternately if fit is loose and slug is ACWW a wrap or two of paper will snug it up. I'd be somewhat hesitant to shoot an ACWW slug through a tight choke but since you have cylinder bore no worries.

As always, different guns like different slugs/fits.

I get best accuracy from my old Cooey single shot that is solid. So far my Mossberg smoothbore Slugster is not doing so well even with lightened trigger and shimmed barrel.

I suspect you'll get better results from the Botfly slugs with an attached basewad than the Lee slug. I have modified my Lee slug moulds to provide an attachement method for a tailwad and that is working well for me. Do a search for Blood Trail (Leon Guthrie) he has had excellent results with the Botfly slug though he is using a rifled gun:

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?390716-Svarog-Botfly-slug-brings-home-the-back-straps!&highlight=botfly

Longbow

[schutzen-jager]

dug out paper work for my old Lee 12 ga. 1oz. slug mold - instructions clearly state - exact quote [ slugs MUST be cast from PURE LEAD . other alloys like wheel weights, will stick to the core pin + can make it almost impossible to remove - PURE LEAD assures proper weight + good expansion ] -

[More_Slugs]

Missed the no choke. I am thinking, pure lead, so the slug can expand to the bore?

But do coated slugs expand?

You have some testing to do.

No prob, 243winxb. For the 7/8oz Lee Key Drive slug, I believe you are correct with pure lead since it's 0.624" in diameter.
That is a good question about if powder coated slugs expand. We know they can collapse without the coating being compromised.
Guess I'll be PC'ing some soft 7/8oz LKD slugs to find out.




I have had good results using ACWW for both Lee 7/8 oz. and 1 oz. slugs in cylinder bore. If the wad petal thickness with the slug is snug in the bore they will shoot fine. I agree with 243winxb about soft lead if the slug/wad fit is loose to bore because they will slug up some to fit the bore better if soft. Alternately if fit is loose and slug is ACWW a wrap or two of paper will snug it up. I'd be somewhat hesitant to shoot an ACWW slug through a tight choke but since you have cylinder bore no worries.

As always, different guns like different slugs/fits.

I get best accuracy from my old Cooey single shot that is solid. So far my Mossberg smoothbore Slugster is not doing so well even with lightened trigger and shimmed barrel.

I suspect you'll get better results from the Botfly slugs with an attached basewad than the Lee slug. I have modified my Lee slug moulds to provide an attachement method for a tailwad and that is working well for me. Do a search for Blood Trail (Leon Guthrie) he has had excellent results with the Botfly slug though he is using a rifled gun:

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?390716-Svarog-Botfly-slug-brings-home-the-back-straps!&highlight=botfly

Longbow

Thanks, Longbow! Some good info and things to test.
I agree, the Botfly should be fine cast from alloy (Lyman #2?) since it's 0.733" in diameter.



dug out paper work for my old Lee 12 ga. 1oz. slug mold - instructions clearly state - exact quote [ slugs MUST be cast from PURE LEAD . other alloys like wheel weights, will stick to the core pin + can make it almost impossible to remove - PURE LEAD assures proper weight + good expansion ] -

I appreciate that, schutzen-jager! I wonder if graphite spray would help with the sticking if the Lee Key Drive is made from alloy?
It makes since for the LKD slug to be made from soft lead since it's only 0.624" in diameter and would rattle around without the expansion to fit the bore.
Yet the Russian Svarog Botfly is 0.733" in diameter and should be fine cast as Lyman #2 I'm thinking?

[243winxb]

Lee Slug is .685" as cast. With shot cup, it's .724" Lyman #2 alloy was used. (From link i posted above.)

My Lee slug cast with pure is smaller. Note taper.

The Lee needs the plastic wad.

[More_Slugs]

Lee Slug is .685" as cast. With shot cup, it's .724" Lyman #2 alloy was used. (From link i posted above.)

My Lee slug cast with pure is smaller. Note taper.

The Lee needs the plastic wad.

Yeah, the 1oz is bigger and not as accurate as the smaller 7/8oz @ 0.624", because it's not "nose heavy".
The 7/8oz is like a Weeble Wobble (told my age) when you try to lay it on it's side. It won't stay and rolls onto the nose unlike the 1oz.

I have some CB1138, CB2100 (Fed12S0), CB SW250 and BPI 078 wads that should work for the 7/8oz.
Since I have no chokes to destroy via the cylinder bore, it should be okay cast as Lyman #2.
What wads are you using for the 1oz LKD slug?

[longbow]

My Lee 1 oz. slugs cast at 0.685" from wheel weights, the 7/8 oz. cast at about 0.682". This is at the nose. The bottom of the skirt is more like 0.665" IIRC but definittely small and more taper than any wads I have.

I have not even cast any Lee slugs from pure lead, just range scrap and wheel weights. I make sure I have a good fit to bore by selecting the wads and/or paper patching. My Lee 1 oz. mould was good from the factory with no sticking slugs at all. The 7/8 oz. was not! Slugs stuck badly to the core pin but that was due to some burrs along the drive key slot. A careful work over with fine silicone carbide paper removed the burrs and now slugs drop off the core pin no problem.

Longbow

[243winxb]

The wad i used was discontinued, i think?

Gun- Mossberg 500 cantilever rifled , scope on 7 power. Lee load data used.Powder HS-6 36gr. Win AA 2 3/4" Win 209 primer. Win. Wad 12f114 No wad pressure when seating. Slug 1 OZ weight 423gr

From 2009. When i tested.

[schutzen-jager]

just measured my Lee 1oz. cast with pure plumbers lead - all measured .668 as cast -i found the 1oz. more accurate than the 7/8oz. in all my 12ga. guns - wad choice made a big difference in accuracy -

[More_Slugs]

My Lee 1 oz. slugs cast at 0.685" from wheel weights, the 7/8 oz. cast at about 0.682". This is at the nose. The bottom of the skirt is more like 0.665" IIRC but definittely small and more taper than any wads I have.

I have not even cast any Lee slugs from pure lead, just range scrap and wheel weights. I make sure I have a good fit to bore by selecting the wads and/or paper patching. My Lee 1 oz. mould was good from the factory with no sticking slugs at all. The 7/8 oz. was not! Slugs stuck badly to the core pin but that was due to some burrs along the drive key slot. A careful work over with fine silicone carbide paper removed the burrs and now slugs drop off the core pin no problem.

Longbow

I have read that about the 7/8oz LKD slug more than once, so thanks again for the information and refresher.
I have some work to do on that mold........




The wad i used was discontinued, i think?

Gun- Mossberg 500 cantilever rifled , scope on 7 power. Lee load data used.Powder HS-6 36gr. Win AA 2 3/4" Win 209 primer. Win. Wad 12f114 No wad pressure when seating. Slug 1 OZ weight 423gr

From 2009. When i tested.

I appreciate the load data, 243winxb! Thanks!




just measured my Lee 1oz. cast with pure plumbers lead - all measured .668 as cast -i found the 1oz. more accurate than the 7/8oz. in all my 12ga. guns - wad choice made a big difference in accuracy -

schutzen-jager, from my research you're one of the few to have better accuracy with the 1oz vs the 7/8oz.
Glad you got it squared away.

What wad are you using for the 1oz LKD slug?

[schutzen-jager]

500 piece bag that was purchased decades ago from the original Gander Mountain - bag states PC 12guage win length, made by triple g Plastics Inc., Gamaleel, KY. - do not know if still in business -i use them in Win AA hulls w/38.5 grs. of AA #5 with the 1oz. Lee slugs - i gave up trying good combination w/ the 7/8oz. lee slugs - the load performs great in savage 311 one 30" m+f, one 28" m+f - Ithaca DSPS 20" cyl - H+R single full - vintage Browning A5 28" full -

[More_Slugs]

500 piece bag that was purchased decades ago from the original Gander Mountain - bag states PC 12guage win length, made by triple g Plastics Inc., Gamaleel, KY. - do not know if still in business -i use them in Win AA hulls w/38.5 grs. of AA #5 with the 1oz. Lee slugs - i gave up trying good combination w/ the 7/8oz. lee slugs - the load performs great in savage 322's one 30" m+f, one 28" m+f - Ithaca DSPS 20" cyl - H+R single full - vintage Browning A% 28" full -

I appreciate the info and your reply

[pipehand]

I gave up on the Lee slugs after using an MP mold for the Lyman sabot slugs. More accurate and easier to cast a bunch of slugs. I use range berm scrap for all slugs , buckshot and round ball. I don't water drop the slugs, or large round ball, but all the buckshot and the .600" balls for Tri-ball benefit from the brinell boost.

[More_Slugs]

I gave up on the Lee slugs after using an MP mold for the Lyman sabot slugs. More accurate and easier to cast a bunch of slugs. I use range berm scrap for all slugs , buckshot and round ball. I don't water drop the slugs, or large round ball, but all the buckshot and the .600" balls for Tri-ball benefit from the brinell boost.

Thanks for the input!

I've been looking at the MP sabot mold too.

[W.R.Buchanan]

So a Brinell of roughly 13 has been good. Thanks, Randy! What wads are you using for the Lyman?

My Lyman Slug Mould is from MP Moulds, They make really good stuff. I use the "Claybuster Blue Slug Wads from BPI with a 1/16" Card under the Slug" In Winchester AA hulls with 18 gr of Green Dot Powder, Fold Crimp. Slug Base filled with Hot Glue. See Target in Post #3, 3 shots thru same hole at 25 yards.(too foggy to shoot farther that day.) From my Mossberg 500 with Rifled Choke Tube.

Anxious to see how these loads perform from my latest creation the "Auto-Berg?" which has a fully Rifled Barrel (Mossberg 500 sold thru Western Auto Stores in the 60's.)

Randy

[More_Slugs]

My Lyman Slug Mould is from MP Moulds, They make really good stuff. I use the "Claybuster Blue Slug Wads from BPI with a 1/16" Card under the Slug" In Winchester AA hulls with 18 gr of Green Dot Powder, Fold Crimp. Slug Base filled with Hot Glue. See Target in Post #3, 3 shots thru same hole at 25 yards.(too foggy to shoot farther that day.) From my Mossberg 500 with Rifled Choke Tube.

Anxious to see how these loads perform from my latest creation the "Auto-Berg?" which has a fully Rifled Barrel (Mossberg 500 sold thru Western Auto Stores in the 60's.)

Randy

The good 'ol blue CB SW250 wads.
Thanks for that load data and info!
Hope the 'Berg' works out for you.