Cold bore only squib problem

[MWestern]

Hello all, I am having a problem with squib loads and I can’t figure it out. Maybe one of you have an idea.

Rifle: New Winchester/miroku 1873 24” barrel 38/357

I bought the rifle to do the LG silhouette match at my club

I have been trying to develop a load for it but I get a squib 100% of the time on a cold bore. Following shots work fine.

Here is what I have loaded and all have a cold bore squib. First shot squib, following 4 shots fire fine. Wait 5-10 min, first shot squib, following 4 shots fire fine. Wait 10 min, fire, another squib, following 15 shots work fine.

Outside temp was 45 degrees
Bullet: 158gr plated from Everglades ammo
Powder: titegroup

All these loads had cold bore squibs:
38 brass, 3.8gr, std primer
357 brass, 4.0gr, std primer
357 brass, 4.0gr, mag primer
357 brass, 4.5gr, std primer
357 brass, 4.5gr, mag primer
357 brass, 5.0gr, std primer

I read about the action strength on the 1873 so I am trying to keep the pressures as low as possible, yet knock down the steel silhouettes.

I keep messing with this combo because the accuracy is outstanding when it works.

357 brass, 4.2gr titegroup, 158gr Missouri bullet lead, std primer. 100% but accuracy was horrible, 12-15” at 50 yards.

Factory blazer 125gr 38 spl was 100% and accuracy was just ok.

My next step is to try hp38 and maybe some #5 if I can find it locally.


Any one have any ideas on the cold bore only squibs?

Thanks
Mike

[shootinfox2]

Did you clean out the firing pin bore. Cold lube in there may cause the firing pin to stick.

Is it a squib ir no fire?

[MWestern]

Did you clean out the firing pin bore. Cold lube in there may cause the firing pin to stick.

Is it a squib ir no fire?

The bullets fires, but gets stuck 1/2 to 3/4 down the barrel.

[Larry Gibson]

since the bullets are plated and not lubed(?) it's possibly a function of powder position in the case because the first cartridge is loaded and fired differently from the next 4. How are you loading the rifle and then firing the first round vs the next 4?

[MWestern]

since the bullets are plated and not lubed(?) it's possibly a function of powder position in the case because the first cartridge is loaded and fired differently from the next 4. How are you loading the rifle and then firing the first round vs the next 4?

I was thinking the same thing so I tried single loading all 5 on to the lifter. Then all from the magazine, I even tried tapping the rounds rims down to make sure all the powder was up against the primer. It’s so strange that it’s only when the bore is cool. Guess I will try a different powder but it’s hurting my brain as it makes no sense to me. I have some 158 jsp I could try, maybe it’s the bullets (just bought 500, dammit).

The 4.0gr load even squibbed in my 6” sw 586. Made it right to the end of the barrel.

[243winxb]

The bullets making it part way down the barrel, is a sign of low pressure. The powder can not burn correctly, if the bullet moves out of the case mouth to soon.

Full pressure loads will be needed to get 158 gr jacketed bullets out the rifle muzzle, at 38 special velocities.

Everglades bullets are listed at .357" diameter, undersize??

More bullet hold may be needed? Measure the outside diameter of the brass, before & after bullet seating.
The OD must increase by a minimum of .002" or more for proper hold/neck tension. Crimp should be light on plated bullets.

Increase bullet hold with a small expander and/or a new Sizing die. https://www.amazon.com/Lee-Precision-Reloading-Undersize-Sizing/dp/B00UUC805U

Lee Precision Reloading Undersize Sizing 38/357 Die

[Rockindaddy]

With the light powder charges and a lot of space in a relatively empty case, ignition is poor. Try some IMR4227 or Reloader No 7! These propellants are bulkier. Tighten your crimp. That charge will light up with no squibs!

[farmbif]

those new production guns are much stronger than the original 1873's. there is no way they would have chambered it for 357 magnum if it won't stand up to the load. might try some other powders, be-86 is a good candidate, also might try bullseye, silhouette or no5

[MWestern]

Thanks for suggestions. I will up my crimp and try other powders. I did try 4227 with the Missouri bullets but had lots of yellow flakes left in the case after firing. I will give it another shot with more crimp and a mag primer.

The squib only happening on a cold bore was something I never encountered before, but sometimes strange things happen.

[farmbif]

4227 is a good powder, I always use a magnum primer with it. although it always leaves powder behind in the barrel it usually provides very good accuracy. works real well for good powerful loads in 44 mag, 45 colt and others. ive never tried downloading it. once again for middle of the road loads, ive found be-86 to really shine and silhouette is also a great powder that is overlooked by many reloaders, it can be safely downloaded or loaded to the max with excellent results and lots of great data for it using all kinds of bullets. I wouldn't get too hung up on what brand or type of bullet what is usually more important is bullet weight and seating depth when approaching maximum loads. back in 70's a lot of load data was based purely on bullet weight not bullet brand.

[Jedman]

That is a very strange problem. I can’t think how the temperature of the barrel could have anything to do with it as you’re not talking below zero temps here ?
All I can think of are the standard things to check when you get a failure to fire, headspace, firing pin - moving freely the tip protrudes far enough through the bolt face, hammer to pin contact, mainspring power - must be enough to fire the primers used.
Why the following shots would be 100 % doesn’t make any sense to me ? It may not be handy to try this idea where you shoot at the range but I can shoot at home and might try using my hot air gun to slightly warm the chamber area of the barrel first and then load a single round and see if it fires all the time ?
As with the checks of your rifles function you could go through the possible problems with your ammo but that seems much less likely.

Jedman

[Milky Duck]

use a hooter load for the first round would circumvent the issue but not solve it.....really strange issue to have...I wonder if the barrels state of dirtyness or left over lube could be contributing?? when cold its creating more resistance,seen as though everything else should in effect be equal????

[farmbif]

another way to test your gun on first shot is to just chamber a shell with only a primer in it and see if it goes bang.

[Dan Cash]

Dear Lord, it is Christmas so I will not expound.

[35 Rem]

another way to test your gun on first shot is to just chamber a shell with only a primer in it and see if it goes bang.

This is exactly what I would do as this would take the powder and other factors out of the equation. I'm thinking it must be crud built up around the firing pin that is cushioning the hammer blow all the time but more so until the 1st shot loosens it up.

[Jedman]

Merry Christmas, it’s after midnight here and all guns, ammo should be happy to make it to the next year as I am and shoot the way they should ! This problem just does not seem to be repeatable.
I just read the posts and this is a quandary that I have never heard or experienced before.
I hope you find what is the problem.
Jedman

[Ford SD]

Hello all, I am having a problem with squib loads and I can’t figure it out. Maybe one of you have an idea.

Rifle: New Winchester/miroku 1873 24” barrel 38/357

I bought the rifle to do the LG silhouette match at my club

I have been trying to develop a load for it but I get a squib 100% of the time on a cold bore. Following shots work fine.

Here is what I have loaded and all have a cold bore squib. First shot squib, following 4 shots fire fine. Wait 5-10 min, first shot squib, following 4 shots fire fine. Wait 10 min, fire, another squib, following 15 shots work fine.

Outside temp was 45 degrees
Bullet: 158gr plated from Everglades ammo
Powder: titegroup

All these loads had cold bore squibs:
38 brass, 3.8gr, std primer
357 brass, 4.0gr, std primer
357 brass, 4.0gr, mag primer
357 brass, 4.5gr, std primer
357 brass, 4.5gr, mag primer
357 brass, 5.0gr, std primer

I read about the action strength on the 1873 so I am trying to keep the pressures as low as possible, yet knock down the steel silhouettes.

I keep messing with this combo because the accuracy is outstanding when it works.

357 brass, 4.2gr titegroup, 158gr Missouri bullet lead, std primer. 100% but accuracy was horrible, 12-15” at 50 yards.

Factory blazer 125gr 38 spl was 100% and accuracy was just ok.

My next step is to try hp38 and maybe some #5 if I can find it locally.


Any one have any ideas on the cold bore only squibs?

Thanks
Mike

I used GRT with my data, changed barrel length and powder

GRT predicts bullet velocity in the 1000 fps range
Your muzzle pressure is less than 400 psi = why you are sticking a bullet
Fill ratio is around 27% = position sensitive

You need to use a different powder or more of it

In a hg 8 inch barrel muzzle pressure around 1700 psi

[popper]

Dang, that is lighter load than I use in 9mm sub-compact with WST.

[JSnover]

"I read about the action strength on the 1873 so I am trying to keep the pressures as low as possible, yet knock down the steel silhouettes."

You already got some good advice here so all I'm going to say is I made the same mistake when I first started; tried to keep the pressure as low as possible and got squibs. Your new rifle is plenty strong enough to handle standard 38/357 pressures, there's no need to hug the lower end of the load data.

[MWestern]

Thanks for all the insight. I have loaded up more rounds with different powders and charge weights and upped the crimp. Also cleaned the bore a little extra. The cold bore squib phenomenon is probably a perfect storm of my chamber, bore, powder, brass, crimp combo. I am trying some HP38, unique, IMR4227, and an increased charge weight of titegroup.

Remington 158gr 38 special LRN was 100%, so a heavy 38 works, just had mediocre accuracy, about 5” at 100yds vs the titegroup and plated 2.5” at 100yds.

The rifle never failed to ignite the primer, if the primer ignited the powder properly is another story.

[243winxb]

Keep pressures & velocities at or near maximum.

[PAndy]

I noticed slow cold barrel shots with jacketed and plated bullets in my rifles years ago. Mild loads. I did a lot of chronograph testing in the yard. It's a real pain to set up a chronograph day after day to shoot three shots. anyway, I never saw a slow first shot with a lead bullet, either lubed or coated. Only copper bullets did it. I'm guessing if I was shooting max loads I would not have noticed it. I thought it would turn out to be powder position but in my case it was not. YMMV FWIW

[MWestern]

Original poster: when you say squib load...does that mean the velocity is slower or does it mean the primer doesn't go bang?

Several of us have had best accuracy and function with tc flat point bullets...like Missouri 125 and 140 gr

The primer ignites but the bullet gets stuck in the barrel. I tried Missouri 158 coated but accuracy was terrible. 13” groups at 50 yards.

I tried 11 grains of imr 4227 and all bullets cleared the barrel but I could still feel recoil differences between some of the rounds. Accuracy showed it too, it was poor. Saturday I shot 2 5 shot groups of 1” at 50 yards. Went home and loaded up 50 rounds with that recipe. Next Saturday, I didn’t touch the rifle, that load now has 10” groups at 50 yards and inconsistent recoil with lots of unburned powder everywhere. The only difference was the first week was 45 and this week was 30 degrees.

I am going to bump it up to 12.5 and try again. For some reason I can’t get consistent ignition. After seeing the erratic groups I might circle back to the Missouri 158s.

I have new starline 357 brass sized and trimmed. I don’t use any lube on pistol brass. Crimp is done with a Lee FCD, medium crimp (contact plus 3/4 turn).

[elmacgyver0]

Stupid question, but are you weighing each charge or using a powder measure.

[MWestern]

Stupid question, but are you weighing each charge or using a powder measure.

I am weighing each charge. I am now double checking on a second scale and the first scale is always on point with the second. Thought it could be scale malfunctions but doesn’t look that way.

Thanks all for your time and input.

[elmacgyver0]

Interesting problem, the only time I have had problems with squib loads was an ammo can full of .38spl wad cutter ammo I inherited from my wife's uncle. That is a story for another time.
I'm sure with the help on this forum you will get it figured out.
There is a lot of knowledgeable people here on reloading, I'm not one of them, I know a few things, but can't hold a candle to most here.
Good Luck!

[45_Colt]

Sounds like the rifle isn't giving/producing a good solid firing pin hit on the primer. May be getting a good indentation, but it may not be a good solid hit.

Check the free movement of the firing pin, hammer spring strength, hammer drag. Also check the firing pin protrusion from the bolt face.

45_Colt

[Wilderness]

In my experience a clean barrel CAST bullet may give 50 fps or so EXTRA velocity. First shot on a cold fouled barrel does the same thing, possibly for different reasons. Is it possible that a plated bullet gives LOWER first shot velocity? (When it isn't zero) Test with chronograph. A fellow shooter experienced stuck bullets in .30-30 with Berry plated bullets and squib loads. Not sure if it was first shot or mid group. No such problem with soft cast lubricated bullets. Most sources I've read warn against trying very low velocities with jacketed bullets. I avoid hard alloys even.

To test your powder for dodgy light load ignition, place about 5 gns on the ground/floor, load a primed case in the rifle, and flash the powder with muzzle a few inches from the pile. Rifle powders will be scattered without ignition. Something like Red Dot will ignite. Could be telling you something about behaviour in light loads.

Squib loads with suitable powder can also be used as fire starters in an emergency - pull the bullet with pliers or Leatherman, place the powder where required in the kindling, and flash with the primed case. I believe it was a common trick in BP days - put a sniff of black in the kindling and light with a flint.

[MostlyLeverGuns]

Like 45 Colt, I would be looking at some problem in the firearm, old grease/dirt, some 'broken/worn' part that may move or not position properly due to going to/from the range, to/from storage, check headspace, generous headspace can cause cartridges with with rims on the low side of SAAMI standards to not get full firing pin impact. I just replaced a mainspring in a 1949 Marlin 32 Special, every so often I got a misfire, usually on the colder days. If your cartridges chamber with resistance and the headspace is generous, the cartridge may not chamber with the rim against the chamber rim, firing pin must push the case forward to fire, sometimes it does not fire.

[dverna]

My CAS load was 2.7 gr of Clays and 125-130 gr bullets. A very light, low pressure load. I never had a squib even in cold weather. You do not need full power loads to avoid squibs.

You have a gun problem not a load problem

Are you sure your powder is what you think it is? I nearly dropped a powder measure of powder in the wrong jug once. But that would not explain only squibs on the first shot. A real challenge to figure this out.

Maybe start with a full strip down and cleaning.

[Wilderness]

Don and others - we are all missing the obvious.

Having seen Berry bullets stuck in a .30-30 with subsonic loads that were fine with lead, I'll put my money on those plated bullets being the problem. Copper should not be part of the squib load equation in the first place - too much resistance for that pressure. Lubed soft alloy bullets should be a better proposition. No experience with PC but possibly OK. Save the plated bullets for higher pressure/velocity.

As an aside, my observation of regular higher-velocity-first-shot on lubed bullets may actually be a consequence of more resistance from a clean bore or a cold fouled bore, possibly generating a better burn. Perhaps in this particular combination "more resistance" is expressed as a stuck bullet.

Note especially the post from PAndy (#22), with chronograph tests showing slow first shot on cold barrel with "copper" bullets, but not with cast.

I see that TiteGroup is down the fast end of the chart, so I would say powder choice is unlikely to be implicated.

[redhawk0]

Another test....heat up the barrel for your first shot...I'm not talking torch here...just a heat gun....see if you still get a squib on the first shot. It should tell you if its actually a cold/warm barrel issue.

I'd also try switching bullets....something NOT plated.

redhawk

[BamaNapper]

I've been following this thread since the beginning. I keep my mouth shut because y'all are far more experienced than I am. I do have a question or two that I'll throw out there.

If the primer strike was the problem, is that implying that a primer detonates more energetically if you strike it harder? I've never heard such a claim. But if it is the case, and it results in an incomplete burn of the powder charge, I would expect there to be unburnt powder in the barrel. I shoot TG powder because it's not position sensitive and I can load low energy rounds. I've never noticed unburnt powder using it. I've messed up and loaded a round with no powder. The bullet traveled a total of about 2-3" before coming to a stop in the barrel. So if the bullet is making it halfway down a rifle barrel I assume the primer is going off and igniting the powder.

I like the thought that the load and bullet selection is right on the hairy edge of producing enough pressure. With the light load, the case is probably not expanding enough to seal the chamber. Wouldn't this provide a larger area for gas expansion and allow barrel pressure to bleed off through the action as the bullet is trying to accelerate? It seems that if barrel pressure is dropping rapidly, it wouldn't take much change in friction to cross the go/no-go point. Could the temp of the brass limit its ability to expand and seal?

Barrels are accurate with a certain bullet diameter, it's a given. But would pushing a handful of these bullets through a 1mil smaller sizing die be worth a try? Yes, it may lose accuracy, but if they fired reliably in a cold barrel it may help prove the notion that bullet friction and low pressure is the problem.

From one of those sniper shows a few years ago: Cold ammunition is somewhat less energetic than warm. I have a hard time believing a few degrees would make any significant difference, but it is a factor. The sniper related that he would wrap his rounds in a dark cloth and lay them in the sunlight to get a little extra oomph for a long shot. I figure if the temp was 45 degrees, by the time the shooter unloads, clears the squib from the barrel, reloads and fires again, both the rifle and the rounds are also back at 45 degrees.

[dverna]

Don and others - we are all missing the obvious.

Having seen Berry bullets stuck in a .30-30 with subsonic loads that were fine with lead, I'll put my money on those plated bullets being the problem. Copper should not be part of the squib load equation in the first place - too much resistance for that pressure. Lubed soft alloy bullets should be a better proposition. No experience with PC but possibly OK. Save the plated bullets for higher pressure/velocity.

As an aside, my observation of regular higher-velocity-first-shot on lubed bullets may actually be a consequence of more resistance from a clean bore or a cold fouled bore, possibly generating a better burn. Perhaps in this particular combination "more resistance" is expressed as a stuck bullet.

Note especially the post from PAndy (#22), with chronograph tests showing slow first shot on cold barrel with "copper" bullets, but not with cast.

I see that TiteGroup is down the fast end of the chart, so I would say powder choice is unlikely to be implicated.

Interesting observation!!

I use XTP type bullets in pistol caliber carbines but at near full loads. Never shot them at low velocity. My CAS bullets were made from hardball alloy (92-2-6). Not s "soft" alloy but more malleable than a jacketed bullet.

If your theory is correct, the solution is simple! Use the right tool for the job.

OP, if you want about 100 cast bullets at no charge to try at low velocity, send me a PM. I have 125-130 gr RNFP bullets but they should test the theory. I may have some 158 gr SWC I got for a project and will send some of them if I can find them.

[sledman]

The primer ignites but the bullet gets stuck in the barrel. I tried Missouri 158 coated but accuracy was terrible. 13” groups at 50 yards.

I tried 11 grains of imr 4227 and all bullets cleared the barrel but I could still feel recoil differences between some of the rounds. Accuracy showed it too, it was poor. Saturday I shot 2 5 shot groups of 1” at 50 yards. Went home and loaded up 50 rounds with that recipe. Next Saturday, I didn’t touch the rifle, that load now has 10” groups at 50 yards and inconsistent recoil with lots of unburned powder everywhere. The only difference was the first week was 45 and this week was 30 degrees.

I am going to bump it up to 12.5 and try again. For some reason I can’t get consistent ignition. After seeing the erratic groups I might circle back to the Missouri 158s.

I have new starline 357 brass sized and trimmed. I don’t use any lube on pistol brass. Crimp is done with a Lee FCD, medium crimp (contact plus 3/4 turn).

Going out on a limb here... You might try crimping with a different die than the Lee FCD, or no crimp at all if you have enough neck tension.

[rintinglen]

Titegroup is a double base powder, meaning it is a mixture of nitrocellulose and nitroglycerin. Nitroglycerin becomes less volatile when chilled. I don't know how cold your barrel is when you are getting the squibs. But I suspect if you keep your ammunition in your pocket so that it stays warm and quickly load and fire, you'll likely find the problem stops. A single base powder, such as VV n320, might also solve your problem.

[wilecoyote]

in case it could be a problem resulting from a low charge of some position-sensitive powder, a small fluff of dacron would be enough to keep it where it should stay, eliminating at least this variable_

[1006]

I think you just need more powder.

5.0 is a starting load.

You need a good taper crimp—squeeze it, it will still be accurate.322149

Also, if you are wet tumbling your brass, make extra certain the cases are dry. I have had them sitting on my bench for a week and found they were still retaining moisture that damaged my powder.

[smkummer]

This sounds like an undersized bullet/oversized barrel situation. Measure the diameter of your bullets. Lead bullets normally are .358 diameter. Slug your barrel. It should be .357.

I say this because when I started loading 38 special for SASS, I found a load of 2.8 bullseye and a 125 grain bullet. I had some cast round nose 125 grain bullets for 9mm sized at .356 and used them. They sounded weak but none ever stuck. Changing to a lee 125-RF cast bullet sized to .358 made all the difference. A good bang even in cold weather.
Talking about cold weather. Winchester actually publishes its low recoil 26 gram. 12 gauge shotgun loads. Many SASS shooters use this ammo if they can find it. We could not get win. powder in the past shortage so we substituted 700X with a 7/8 wad. I use about 13 grains. A buddy was down to 12 grains. It was fine in the warm weather but last week, during the 40 degree day, his loads sounded weak and he is going to up it to 13 grains. A weak load doesn’t have a good bang and being around lots of shooting, especially SASS, it’s easy to hear.

[Lance Boyle]

With that low of a powder charge I would be focussing on using .38 special cases instead. I see you tried one load with a .38 case.

Either switch powders or change cases or both.

things to tip the scales in your favor
.38 special case to help with powder fill
deeper bullet seating.....same reason
firmer crimp to help the powder maintain initial pressure for the burn
different fluffier powder for more fill
up the charge

Granted I have no .357 rifle length barrels (yet). Just a half a dozen .357 wheel guns. You have quite a long barrel! You may want to check out the Lyman manuals iirc they have seperate data for rifles. I am guessing your bullet is actually losing speed not picking any up beyond a 16” barrel. Your small powder charge has run out of expansion before the bullet exits.

[MWestern]

Thanks again for all the replies, I stopped getting the notification emails so I thought the thread was stalled, but it looks like it’s not. I have some reading to do.

But I was able to make it to the range today, so here is an update for anyone following or for someone with my problem in the future.

I was looking at some of the stuck bullets from last outing and noticed there were lead smears on one side of the bullets (the cannalure was filled in with lead too. So I gave the bore a typical cleaning with brushing and patches, then headed to the range. I had only 1 stuck bullet and there was still a lead smear on one side of the bullet. I purposely used a really light load to see if lead build up was the problem the whole time. Was it? I have no idea. But the first bullet did get stuck. Here are the chrono numbers from today in the order I shot them.

Bullets were 158 Everglades plated except the last group was Missouri bullet coated 158 lea(12 hardness). Brass was star line 357.

4.5g Tite Group - stuck bullet, 728, 909, 987, 961

12g IMR4227 - 786, 1244, 1225, 1207, 1253
- 1125, 1237, 1210, 1256, 1194

5.5g hp38 - 486, 1061, 1108, 1151, 1106 (poor accuracy)

5.3g TG - 1094, 1092, 1170, 1166, 1205

5.0g TG (lead) 1235, 1213, 1216, 1213, 1217 (good SD but accuracy was poor)

4227 and 5.3 titegroup had the best accuracy, about 1.5” at 50 yards

Just got done cleaning the bore again, used the whole arsenal this time, copper chore boy wrapped bronze brush included. No bore scope so I just put in extra elbow grease. Have not decided what I will do for the next trip yet, maybe abandon 357 brass and go 38.

The Missouri bullets 158 coated (38 brass) shot pretty good out of the SW 586 6” today, but the 1873 hates them.

[jetinteriorguy]

Thanks again for all the replies, I stopped getting the notification emails so I thought the thread was stalled, but it looks like it’s not. I have some reading to do.

But I was able to make it to the range today, so here is an update for anyone following or for someone with my problem in the future.

I was looking at some of the stuck bullets from last outing and noticed there were lead smears on one side of the bullets (the cannalure was filled in with lead too. So I gave the bore a typical cleaning with brushing and patches, then headed to the range. I had only 1 stuck bullet and there was still a lead smear on one side of the bullet. I purposely used a really light load to see if lead build up was the problem the whole time. Was it? I have no idea. But the first bullet did get stuck. Here are the chrono numbers from today in the order I shot them.

Bullets were 158 Everglades plated except the last group was Missouri bullet coated 158 lea(12 hardness). Brass was star line 357.
When I’m working up a load here’s how I set my crimp. I load up a dummy round and then crimp it strong enough so when I push it against my bench the bullet does not move. Then I put it in my inertial bullet puller to see if it takes at least three good whacks to unseat the bullet. Then I continue increasing the crimp and pulling the bullet until I see the plating/coating being compromised and exposing lead when pulling the bullet. At this point I back off the crimping die enough to keep the bullet intact while maintaining a good grip. Of course be careful not to over crimp causing the case to buckle and bulge giving you no grip at all. I know this seems like a tedious process but it’s really not bad and after doing it a while you’ll develop enough of a feel for what you’re doing to streamline this process.

4.5g Tite Group - stuck bullet, 728, 909, 987, 961

12g IMR4227 - 786, 1244, 1225, 1207, 1253
- 1125, 1237, 1210, 1256, 1194

5.5g hp38 - 486, 1061, 1108, 1151, 1106 (poor accuracy)

5.3g TG - 1094, 1092, 1170, 1166, 1205

5.0g TG (lead) 1235, 1213, 1216, 1213, 1217 (good SD but accuracy was poor)

4227 and 5.3 titegroup had the best accuracy, about 1.5” at 50 yards

Just got done cleaning the bore again, used the whole arsenal this time, copper chore boy wrapped bronze brush included. No bore scope so I just put in extra elbow grease. Have not decided what I will do for the next trip yet, maybe abandon 357 brass and go 38.

The Missouri bullets 158 coated (38 brass) shot pretty good out of the SW 586 6” today, but the 1873 hates them.
This sounds to me like your crimping too tight with a roll crimp and it’s cutting through the coating exposing some lead. Coupled with how hot Titegroup burn’s this could be causing leading.

[MWestern]

This sounds to me like your crimping too tight with a roll crimp and it’s cutting through the coating exposing some lead. Coupled with how hot Titegroup burn’s this could be causing leading.

Thanks for the tip on how you check crimp. I did do some test crimping, then pulled the bullets and didn’t notice any cracking or exposed lead, but once it’s fired it probably could open up if stressed enough. I will do a closer look at the stuck bullets I have and see if I can tell if the lead is from the core or purely external.

Could leading or a lump of lead in the throat area cause the cold bore low velocity problem? Could the lead heat up and become less restrictive and allow velocities to increase? I would shoot in groups of 5 for the chrono and then wait 10 min before the next group. As the results showed the first round was always way lower. 4227 was in the 700s then the following shots were all 1200 ish. Hp38 first shot was 1/2 the following velocities. Lead was consistent, could the lead bullet be molding over the “lump” of lead hurting accuracy but the plated bullets are trying to plow through causing velocity problems but retaining its shape for accuracy?

[MWestern]

After cleaning the barrel real well and doing the choreboy thing, it seems like the problem was some clumps of lead in the barrel and too little powder for case size. I loaded some 357 brass with the same 158 plated bullets, 3.5g of titegroup to purposely stick a bullet in the barrel to check if there was smears of lead on it. I could not get that load to stick a bullet but managed to get 150fps! Where before it would stick a bullet 100% of the time.. upped my charge to 5.3g TG and 12g of 4227. Both were accurate and the first round cold bore shot was more consistent in velocity.

If anyone finds this is the future having the same problem:
Make sure your bore and chamber is clean from lead and carbon
Sometimes low end powder charges don’t burn properly, up the charge or change powders. Missouri Bullets still shoot poorly, up to 9g spread in bullet weights too.

Thanks everyone for the help and ideas.

[Milky Duck]

great you have it sorted....MAYBE your choreboy scrub removed a rough patch inside barrel that was dragging on boolit causing the smear off... the resulting smeared bit provided smoother surface for following rounds???
I know my old remington 22lr would group like shotgun for 30rounds after a cleaning then back to tack driver...filling in pores in barrel was only thing I could put it down to..could POSSIBLY be something similar going on??