1867 Rolling Block pistol

[marlinman93]

At our collector show last Sunday a friend told me of two Rolling Block pistols he saw for sale at a local gun shop. He said he wanted one, but the seller didn't want to sell them separately, so he was bummed about it. I asked about details, condition, price, what model? He couldn't answer all the questions, but said the bores were perfect and they were .50 caliber CF chamberings! I told him I'd help him with his dilemma and if they were as described "a perfect match condition wise" I'd let him have first choice on which he wanted. He went back yesterday and offered them $200 less for the pair, and they accepted! Their price was already a bargain I thought, so less was even better! And he let me choose which I wanted first. Not easy to do, as they were as described, a perfect match and in wonderful tight condition, and excellent bores. One had just a slightly better serial number, that was easier to read, so I chose it.
From some data I found online it appears I got a little lucky in choosing this one of the two we bought. There were 4 inspectors who stamped the barrels with their initials during production of these Model 1867's.

EB-Edward Barrett
JMBC-JMC Clitz
HE-Henry Erban
WDW-WD Whiting

Of the four, only 8% were inspected by Edward Barrett, and his EB is the rarest of the four. Mine is EB inspected, and has the Navy anchor rollstamp.

https://i.imgur.com/PxMMyBdl.jpg

Of the 6500 first Model 1865's built, 6358 of those were sent back to Remington to be reworked to centerfire .50 cartridges. It took 6 years to get those guns back from all over the world on Navy ships, or ports and get them reworked. As part of the rework Rem. installed new triggers, and trigger guards, plus a CF breech block. The previous Model 1865's had no trigger guard at all. Barrels were 8.5" on the 1865, and were shortened to 7" at the same time.

https://i.imgur.com/eD1iCNJl.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/NJnwbBDl.jpg

All these actions are marked FCW and a P by Remington employee Frank C Warner. The P means it was proof tested.

https://i.imgur.com/6VXHkF8l.jpg


I will begin the process of making up some cartridges by shortening .50-70 down to .86" case length, and trying to find some correct weight 290-300 grain .512" bullets. In hopes of at least making up enough to shoot it a little.
I've wanted one of the Rolling Block military Army or Navy handguns for a very long time! So this is one I'm really happy to finally add to my collection of old Remingtons!

[BP Dave]

Nice score on a good-looking pistol, and they are fun to shoot.

I made some brass from .50-70 (either Dixie or Bell--don't recall which) and some from .348 Winchester, but the necks were pretty thick on both. Maybe a different brand of .50-70 might work better. But I settled on Starline .56-50 Spencer brass, because that was just "trim and shoot" for mine.

[Mk42gunner]

That pistol looks like a lot of fun to be had in the future.

Robert

[Ajohns]

Old West bullet molds carries them (boolits). I think either ones that are made, or the mold.
Don't know the current situation if they're available.
I've had my eye on these for awhile also, I hope you have some fun with it!

[Nobade]

What a great find! Enjoy!

[marlinman93]

One dummy cartridge I made up from a damaged .50-140 case. Shortened to .86" and turned inside and outside above the base to fit. I also turned down a 450 gr. bullet to make it shorter and fit the pistol chamber. Not what I'll do to make actual cases I'd fire.

https://i.imgur.com/5awrL4pl.jpg

I found a youtube video Larry Potterfield did on milling down a cheap Lee aluminum mold to take it from a 450 gr. to a 299 gr. mold. Looks pretty easy.
The brass case I used needed inside and outside turning, so wont use those. Just used one damaged case to build this one.

[Jedman]

Very Cool ! I see YouTube videos of guns like this coming into pawn shops and the seller gets a terrible low price. I only check out pawn shops when I’m out of town or vacationing and old antique guns are what I look for. I still have never found a deal on something a nice as rolling block pistols but I am always ready to buy if I find what I like at a good price. Enjoy your Christmas present to yourself !
Jedman

[Gtrubicon]

I have a fascination with the rolling block rifles, now the pistols! I’ve never seen or heard of these. Thank you for sharing this.

[BobT]

I have been looking for a shootable Navy roller for a long time, congrats on a great find!

[Abert Rim]

Vall, could you make cases from Starline .56-50 brass?
Bill

[marlinman93]

Vall, could you make cases from Starline .56-50 brass?
Bill

That seems to be the easiest route to make these as I've read it only requires a short trim and they're ready to go. Starline shows them in stock, but wont sell less than 250 pcs. at $268. Not a bad price, but far more than I'll ever need as I don't plan on long shooting sessions with this pistol, but do want to shoot it.
Track of the Wolf had it, but show "out of stock" now. I'll do some searching for smaller 50 rd. quantities for sale.

I tore the Roller down to basic parts today and appears it hasn't been oiled in many decades as it was bone dry! Not any dirt, and very little dried oil, so I oiled things up and reassembled the pistol.
All the internals are like new, and appears this gun is as issued internally. Finest bore I've ever seen on a BP era handgun. My friend who got the other one is a retired tool and die maker. I told him I'd buy an aluminum Lee mold and cast us bullets if he'd mill the mold down to make the bullets weigh around 290-300 grs. He said he'd take care of the mold mods, so I can cast us both bullets.

[Mk42gunner]

Something tells me that once you start shooting that pistol, it will be like potato chips-- you can't stop at one.

By the time you and your buddy with this pistols mate split a batch of brass from Starline...

Robert, aka The Enabler.

[marlinman93]

Something tells me that once you start shooting that pistol, it will be like potato chips-- you can't stop at one.

By the time you and your buddy with this pistols mate split a batch of brass from Starline...

Robert, aka The Enabler.

Maybe, but not sure how I'll find time to shoot it a lot? I have trouble shooting all of them now, so I likely will have to make time for this one too, and that's never easy.
I did find RCBS has die sets very cheap. I found 3 die sets at around $60.

[ericp]

Very cool! A friend of my grandfather had one that was relined to 44 Russian. He was extremely generous in letting me shoot up his ammo as a kid. It was the first big bore hand gun I ever shot.

Eric

[marlinman93]

Very cool! A friend of my grandfather had one that was relined to 44 Russian. He was extremely generous in letting me shoot up his ammo as a kid. It was the first big bore hand gun I ever shot.

Eric

I've seen more of these relined to a different cartridge than I have still original. I think they were once pretty cheap used, but ammo being impossible to find, and many folks not wanting to make it, resulted in people changing the chambering by lining or fitting a new barrel.

[uscra112]

I seem to remember a video of a guy who could fire-reload-fire one of these in just 4-5 seconds. Practicing for that would use up ammo fast!

[marlinman93]

I seem to remember a video of a guy who could fire-reload-fire one of these in just 4-5 seconds. Practicing for that would use up ammo fast!

I read an old article that said the military reports said a trained soldier could fire 15 rounds aimed in one minute. That's about the same 4 sec. per round you mentioned. Not sure how accurately you could aim, but then it is a pistol designed to stop another ship from boarding yours, so likely point blank aiming.

[Milky Duck]

now that is one of the most unique and interesting guns Ive seen photos of in a long time..a real piece of history in itself...PLEASE make sure to ensure it stays around in good condition and is named in your will to go to someone else who will continue to do so.

[popper]

I remember a RB pistol a friend's dad had, back in the '50s. Very well made with 'cowboy revolver' styled grip. Seems like the barrel was flat sided and it was a large caliber. Was a very heavy pistol. Used to go to his house and watch film reel cowboy movies. Don't remember what his dad did for a living and they moved after GS.

[marlinman93]

I remember a RB pistol a friend's dad had, back in the '50s. Very well made with 'cowboy revolver' styled grip. Seems like the barrel was flat sided and it was a large caliber. Was a very heavy pistol. Used to go to his house and watch film reel cowboy movies. Don't remember what his dad did for a living and they moved after GS.

There were some other single shot, single action handguns made in the late 1800's and early 1900's, but can't remember seeing one with a fllat sided barrel myself? S&W made a beautiful single shot pistol in .22LR and they're highly collectible these days! H&R made one also, but don't think it was as refined as the S&W? It maybe had a flat sided barrel, but not sure?

[marlinman93]

It seems to be raining Rolling Block pistols! Just won this Model 1901 Rolling Block Target Pistol. It's a .22LR and has custom stocks and grip modifications by A Hubalek!
Everyone must have been sleeping as it went for bid opener.

https://i.imgur.com/912ugt5l.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/hdK3Tbul.jpg

These Model 1901 pistols were built on the Model 1891 frames and offered in .44 Russian or .22LR barrels.
Arthur Hubalek was a friend of Harry M Pope, and apprenticed under Pope to learn how to make barrels. He specialized in .22 barrels, and built rifles and pistols for competition. When he began his custom barrel and gunsmithing business it made Pope mad, as he felt betrayed, so he cut off all contact with Hubalek.
There were only 734 of these Model 1901 pistols made!!

[Montanaguy]

My holy grail pistol is a Remington Rolling Block in caliber .50, but until it shows up, I am making do with this pair. I haven't had them very long but from the first cast boolit groups made with them, each has been a terrific performer. I shoot from the bench with my own handloads and 79 year-old eyes. Targets are placed at 25 yards. I had no idea these pistols, especially that old .44 Russian, could make such nice groups. Each pistol has an excellent trigger and both are very well-made. The .357 mag. even does very well on the 200 yard 10" steel gong. Its long barrel sure makes a velocity leap over my .357 revolvers with 6" barrels and the same loads. Cast 125 SWC with 8.0 gr. AA#9 = 1400 fps; 15.0 gr. AA#9 = 1800 fps. However, for my target shooting I use mild loads with Unique, Clays, and 231. Here are photos of the pistols and a couple of targets for your perusal. I'm hooked on rolling blocks, including my recent acquisition of a Pedersoli RB carbine in .45 Colt. I haven't found a performing load yet, but the work goes on!
321845321846321847321848321849

[marlinman93]

My holy grail pistol is a Remington Rolling Block in caliber .50, but until it shows up, I am making do with this pair. I haven't had them very long but from the first cast boolit groups made with them, each has been a terrific performer. I shoot from the bench with my own handloads and 79 year-old eyes. Targets are placed at 25 yards. I had no idea these pistols, especially that old .44 Russian, could make such nice groups. Each pistol has an excellent trigger and both are very well-made. The .357 mag. even does very well on the 200 yard 10" steel gong. Its long barrel sure makes a velocity leap over my .357 revolvers with 6" barrels and the same loads. Cast 125 SWC with 8.0 gr. AA#9 = 1400 fps; 15.0 gr. AA#9 = 1800 fps. However, for my target shooting I use mild loads with Unique, Clays, and 231. Here are photos of the pistols and a couple of targets for your perusal. I'm hooked on rolling blocks, including my recent acquisition of a Pedersoli RB carbine in .45 Colt. I haven't found a performing load yet, but the work goes on!
321845321846321847321848321849

Nice guns and great shooting! The .44 Russian in one of these is a very rare chambering and seldom seen!
I plan to do some sight swapping on the .22 target pistol when it arrives. I want to install a globe front sight, and an adjustable rear sight for better more accurate shooting. Probably try it as is first, and then change the sights and see if groups are better.

[BobT]

You guys aren't helping my resolve any! Up 'till now I've satisfied my cravings with the Thompson Center Contenders. Beautiful pistols! Great shooting Montana!

[nuclearcricket]

Marlinman, nice score on the rolling block pistol. Hopefully it shoots as well or better than it looks. Its interesting that it was barreled by A Hubalek. I know little to nothing about the man but do know he dabbled in making scopes as well. From what I understand they were kind of a copy of the Fecker scope. The reason that name caught my eye is I have just made a set of scope caps for one of his scopes. All I had was just the front and rear bells but they were in very nice shape and seemed to be very well made.
It will be interesting to hear how well that new addition shoots once you get it to the range.
Sam

[marlinman93]

Marlinman, nice score on the rolling block pistol. Hopefully it shoots as well or better than it looks. Its interesting that it was barreled by A Hubalek. I know little to nothing about the man but do know he dabbled in making scopes as well. From what I understand they were kind of a copy of the Fecker scope. The reason that name caught my eye is I have just made a set of scope caps for one of his scopes. All I had was just the front and rear bells but they were in very nice shape and seemed to be very well made.
It will be interesting to hear how well that new addition shoots once you get it to the range.
Sam


Thanks Sam.
Hubalek was a protege of Pope's and he advertised himself as the .22 barrel expert! He did make other calibers, but far more in .22RF than anything else. I'm not sure this Rolling Block has a Hubalek barrel, and since the barrel has original Remington markings it's only possible it has a Hubalek liner. Not even sure he did anything to the barrel on this one, and more likely he built this gun for someone and did the grip frame modifications, and maybe some other work to the trigger, or action?

[Bazoo]

Wow, awesome guns. I'm looking forward to the cartridge manufacturing process.

That 22 is amazing!

[marlinman93]

Wow, awesome guns. I'm looking forward to the cartridge manufacturing process.

That 22 is amazing!

Making cartridges has been way too easy. I did some horse trading with a fella who had brand new Starline .50-70 brass. Making cases was as simple as chopping them off with my Harbor Freight mini chp saw and then final trimming them in my case trimmer.
Then just load with 25 grs. of Swiss 1.5fg BP, and a 300 gr. bullet. They push seat, which is fine for a single shot where no crimp is needed. Still need to get to the range to give them a try before I load more of them.

[Bazoo]

Nice. I've always thought the Rolling Block pistols were neat. I've never dabbled in anything like that, just read about them. The early history of cartridge arms and target shooting is quite interesting.

[marlinman93]

Nice. I've always thought the Rolling Block pistols were neat. I've never dabbled in anything like that, just read about them. The early history of cartridge arms and target shooting is quite interesting.

I've always wondered why they chose the .50 caliber for these pistols? Seems like a huge bullet for what was a defensive handgun for the Army and Navy? After all the revolvers the Army had were smaller .44 caliber Colt and Remington percussions, and one would think a .44 would have been adequate? And considering they were originally rimfires I'd think the .44 rimfire cartridge would have been an obvious choice?
But I'm glad the chose the big .50, and that they quickly changed the Navy guns to a centerfire too.

[nuclearcricket]

Who knows why they went with the .50. However we all know how great the minds are that are employed by the government. Those rolling block pistols, especially the later ones were quite nice and can be very accurate. They do have a bit of a strange trigger set up compared to other rolling blocks but no reason that they can't be fine tuned to a very nice pull.
For those so inclined and skilled, a casting kit is available from Rodney Storie for both the pistol and the #7 rifle. Some day I will have mine finished. Some day.
SAm

[marlinman93]

Who knows why they went with the .50. However we all know how great the minds are that are employed by the government. Those rolling block pistols, especially the later ones were quite nice and can be very accurate. They do have a bit of a strange trigger set up compared to other rolling blocks but no reason that they can't be fine tuned to a very nice pull.
For those so inclined and skilled, a casting kit is available from Rodney Storie for both the pistol and the #7 rifle. Some day I will have mine finished. Some day.
SAm

A #7 rifle is still on my wish list, but likely wont be filled unless I got extremely fortunate! I think they're one of the sexiest single shot rifles ever made!

[Bazoo]

Well, I keep staring at that 22.

[nuclearcricket]

Marlinman, I do agree with you on the #7 being quite the eye catching rifle. I read a long article posted on the ASSRA forum buy a guy that built one from a casting kit. I figured if he could do it I could as well. My original thoughts were to build a trio. the #2, the #7 and the pistol. The kit I got for the #2 I was not happy with so I sent it back. Later on I lucked into another #7 casting kit for a great price. I don't know who made the casting or what it was cast of. I am guessing mild steel and hoping it is actually 8620. It will be color cased so any steel would work. Big difference between the 2 rifle castings is the second one has the rear sight mount cast in place. Finding the right Lyman sight is going to be very hard to do so most likely a custom sight of some kind will be put in its place. The other issue is finding someone with a pattern for the stock. As luck would have it, I contacted Treebone Carving and asked and he does have a pattern. It is a bit of an expensive stock and he recommends English walnut. When its all finished it should be a very nice looking rifle. The first one will be a .22 rf. I just hope the barrel I have for it shoots well. Some day I do hope to have it finished along with the pistol in the same caliber. Should make a nice looking set.
Sam

[marlinman93]

Sam, I had a friend years ago who was a bit of an outlaw and had guns built that often would be illegal by ATF rules. He ended up wanting a #7 and can't recall now if he found a beater 1871 pistol, or used a #2 rifle, but he had a machinist friend he often used convert one of the two frames to make it a #7, and then stocked it and had a .32-20 barrel installed. It was perfect, and so well done it could pass off as an original. He passed away some years back and I always wondered where that rifle went?
When they did the tang sight he bought a Lyman sight for a small .22 rifle, and they took the base off and made up a base to look like a #7 by cutting up the original base and welding onto it and shaping a base like the #7 had. It too looked like an original #7 tang sight when they finished.
Somewhere out there is a very nice #7 that's a faked gun now.

[marlinman93]

Well, I keep staring at that 22.

Wish it was here so I could stare it it too! Still no word, and hoping maybe by week's end?

[nuclearcricket]

I would hazard a guess that he started with a pistol and then made the changes. From what I understand that is basically what the factory did when they couldn't sell pistols. If I were making the #7's to look like the originals I would be looking for the little Lyman sights, I don't know the number off hand but can find out if need be. These will be working rifles for target shooting, one if not both will have scope blocks. The one with the sight base cast in place will most likely get a goodwin style sight made up to fit. To me that seems easier and probably a bit better than the original sight where you need a windage adjustable front sight to make things work.
It sounds like your acquaintance had some skills that he at least at some point made good use of. I think that the 32-20 may have been the largest round put in the #7 but not sure. There wasn't that many of them made and most were target rifles. The way the stock is designed I am betting that they will be great off hand rifles. Maybe not so great for prone but a sitting position should be very comfortable as well.
Sam

[marlinman93]

I would hazard a guess that he started with a pistol and then made the changes. From what I understand that is basically what the factory did when they couldn't sell pistols. If I were making the #7's to look like the originals I would be looking for the little Lyman sights, I don't know the number off hand but can find out if need be. These will be working rifles for target shooting, one if not both will have scope blocks. The one with the sight base cast in place will most likely get a goodwin style sight made up to fit. To me that seems easier and probably a bit better than the original sight where you need a windage adjustable front sight to make things work.
It sounds like your acquaintance had some skills that he at least at some point made good use of. I think that the 32-20 may have been the largest round put in the #7 but not sure. There wasn't that many of them made and most were target rifles. The way the stock is designed I am betting that they will be great off hand rifles. Maybe not so great for prone but a sitting position should be very comfortable as well.
Sam

My friend had no gun building skills, just a vivid imagination, and a gunsmith who was willing to build stuff cheap for him. So every time he wanted something he thought of some alternative to finding the real thing and asked his gunsmith friend to build it.
He once had him build up a switch barrel #4 Rolling Block set with 3 barrels. A gorgeous engraved receiver, and each barrel had engraving to match. But he had the barrels made up in .22LR, .22 Magnum, and .32-20 with offset shank to use the RF firing pin. Not sure he ever fired any of the barrels?
Then he had the same guy take another #4 Remington and build him a .32-20 pistol using the #4 action! He tried to sell that one to me for $150, and I contemplated buying it, and tossing the barrel, but then I figured I'd need to bend the top tang like a #7 and make a #7 style rifle off a cheap #4 frame. Just seemed like a waste of my time and money. After he passed another friend ended up with it and I told him to get rid of the pistol barrel, and pistol grip. He ended up selling me the action for $50 and it's still just sitting in my safe waiting to do something with it.

[marlinman93]

I'm just a little irritated. No sign of the little target pistol, so on Thu. last week after 10 days of waiting, I contacted the seller to ask for a tracking number? He replied the gun is still sitting there, and he was waiting for a copy of my FFL dealer's license! Grrrh!
I told him I'd sent an email with the dealer's number, address, and attached a picture of his FFL license, to which he replied he got that, but didn't get the attachment? Now why he simply couldn't have told me that when it happened is beyond me? Instead he had his money, and just sat there doing nothing for 10 days! Not happy at all with his lack of communication.
I sent another copy, and told him to tell me when he got it. He did so right away, but said he's waiting until Tuesday to ship. You'd think he'd ship it Friday, but he says he only ships twice a week, so waiting for Tuesday. Again irritating.
So hopefully on Tuesday I'll get a tracing number, and start the waiting all over again!

[nuclearcricket]

Waiting and shipping can both be very frustrating. Hopefully it doesn't get lost in the system any place. The up side is not the holidays are over and the shipping system should be back to normal. Late last year I had several things get lost. Eventually they did get delivered but one package was for a customer of parts he asked me to make. I eventually ended up making a half dozen more for him and sent them so he had some to get him buy for a bit. Eventually he did get the original package but it still ended up costing me.
Hopefully it shows up sometime this week and you can slobber and fondle all over it to your hearts content.
Sam

[Bazoo]

I'm just a little irritated. No sign of the little target pistol, so on Thu. last week after 10 days of waiting, I contacted the seller to ask for a tracking number? He replied the gun is still sitting there, and he was waiting for a copy of my FFL dealer's license! Grrrh!
I told him I'd sent an email with the dealer's number, address, and attached a picture of his FFL license, to which he replied he got that, but didn't get the attachment? Now why he simply couldn't have told me that when it happened is beyond me? Instead he had his money, and just sat there doing nothing for 10 days! Not happy at all with his lack of communication.
I sent another copy, and told him to tell me when he got it. He did so right away, but said he's waiting until Tuesday to ship. You'd think he'd ship it Friday, but he says he only ships twice a week, so waiting for Tuesday. Again irritating.
So hopefully on Tuesday I'll get a tracing number, and start the waiting all over again!

Man that's tough to hear. I hope he does indeed get off his keister tuesday. When I clicked on this thread I thought.. Oooo, I wonder if there's new pics of the 22 Rolling Block?

[marlinman93]

Man that's tough to hear. I hope he does indeed get off his keister tuesday. When I clicked on this thread I thought.. Oooo, I wonder if there's new pics of the 22 Rolling Block?

Wish it was an update with new pics!

[BP Dave]

Here's a photo update. 322215

And his cousin.322217

[marlinman93]

Finally got a notice it's shipping, and tracking number. So now the waiting begins again.

[marlinman93]

My friend called today to tell me a package arrived there in my name! So heading out tomorrow to pick up the Rolling Block pistol!

[nuclearcricket]

happy days, looking forward to a full report once you stop dancing with glee
Sam

[Bazoo]

Took a spell. I’m looking forward to the pics and report!

[ndnchf]

Standing by for an update! These are neat pistols and closely related to my beloved #2 sporting rifles. What I'd really like to find is a nice Navy model 1865 spur trigger pistol. That would be a lot of fun to shoot!

[marlinman93]

Standing by for an update! These are neat pistols and closely related to my beloved #2 sporting rifles. What I'd really like to find is a nice Navy model 1865 spur trigger pistol. That would be a lot of fun to shoot!

I don't think any ever made it Steve? If they did they'd be extremely rare since all were recalled to be converted to Model 1867's in .50 Navy CF and trigger guards. I've heard spme possibly made it, but never seen or heard of one.

[marlinman93]

It's in my grimy little hands now and I love it!
The bore is excellent, original Remington. Barrel is a later 1901 barrel, as is the breech block; but receiver is the earlier 1891 so no FFL needed! The trigger is wonderful, and crisp, light, and clean breaking! I wondered about the large grips and the shape before, but when I picked it up it instantly felt like a perfect grip, and the angle points great for me. The bore is wonderful and I expect it will shoot excellent.
There are 3 different numbers on the gun. One on the side of the grip frame that is likely the serial number, and two under the forearm on the barrel. One is the same font as the frame, and likely from whatever gun the donor barrel came off? The other is larger font and probably Arthur Hubalek's shop number for the work he did on this gun. Of course the barrel has "A.HUBALEK" on top that he stamped on his guns, and barrels.

I had to see how the grip frame was done, and it is a bit of a surprise. The grips are 3 piece with two outside panels, and a filler that fits inside the grip frame to support the grips. The filler has two pointed pins on each side and the grip panels have holes for those pins to sit in. Then two brass screws through the filler block to hold the side panels on.

The frame is overlapped with the original tangs and each half is thinned to half thickness so they are the same thickness once attached. The bottom of the grip frame is extremely thick top to bottom at over 3/4"! Maybe to add some weight back in the grip to compensate for the long 10" barrel? Here's a couple pictures of the grip area:



https://i.imgur.com/dZQqkO0l.jpg



https://i.imgur.com/kdMWNgDl.jpg



The front half of the grip frame is bolted to the rear half at the lower area so if you remove the lower tang/trigger guard, you can separate the grip frame also. The filler block is so closely fit it wont come out, so guessing it can only be removed by splitting the grip frame, and removing the trigger guard.

[ndnchf]

Glad to hear you finally got it and its a good one! The m1865s are very scarce, but I see one advertised every now and then. But finding an affordable one is probably a pipe dream...

[Bazoo]

Dang that's cool as heck. I'd love to find a clean 22 like that. Thank you for sharing. Congratulations!

[marlinman93]

Glad to hear you finally got it and its a good one! The m1865s are very scarce, but I see one advertised every now and then. But finding an affordable one is probably a pipe dream...

If Flayderman's Guide is correct they built 6500 Model 1865's and 6358 got reworked by Remington into what's called the Model 1867 pistols. Not sure why the 142 short of all? I figured in the 2 years they were used maybe some got absconded with, dropped overboard, or somehow not sent back to be reworked?
I have never seen one except in pictures, and never seen one yet at an auction. I too would like to own one, but it's not a big deal if I don't.

[ndnchf]

There is one on gunsiniternational now. A bit pricey.

[marlinman93]

There is one on gunsiniternational now. A bit pricey.

Gorgeous pistol, and I see why it exists being a civilian model, and not military marked.

[ndnchf]

Gorgeous pistol, and I see why it exists being a civilian model, and not military marked.
Yes, perhaps one that got away!

[marlinman93]

Yes, perhaps one that got away!

Flayderman's mentions some overruns of different variations being sold to civilians. And I think one was the 1867 conversions he mentioned being sold to England as civilian model. Seems odd a conversion from Navy returns would be sold to civilians though? I have a friend who has one of those with British proof marks.

[ndnchf]

The m1865 was being made about the same period that as the type 2 split breech carbines (but these were sub-contracted to Savage). It is interesting that Remington made the #3 saw-handle, single shot deringer from 1865-1888. It used the same basic split breech design. I'm sure the navy ordnance board was familiar with the split breech and its shortcomings. Their preference was for the new solid breech block, and much simpler design. Ahh, but a .50 cal split breech pistol would be neat.

[marlinman93]

Happened upon an old Pbase website I haven't seen in years, assembled by the late Harold Prusca "Hal" of Virginia. On his site he had quite a collection of fine old firearms, but in particular a number of very special Rolling Block pistols! And by chance he is the previous owner of my Hubalek Rolling Block, and has much nicer pictures of it than I could ever do!

Unfortunately Hal was struck by an illegal immigrant working on a local farm, and lost his eyesight in the accident. Then later died from complications of that accident, and his collection was auctioned off. But we're lucky to still have all the images he saved!



https://pbase.com/halp/root&page=all



https://pbase.com/halp/rb_pistol

[6string]

If you guys like Remington Rolling Block pistols, you might want to investigate a guy named Al Georg. He was a pioneer handgun hunter and gunsmith. He made a few rolling block pistols from original Remington rifle actions, usually for a small rifle cartridge. He wrote an article in the 1960s on one he did for 30 Carbine. Apparently, it got the attention of the authorities as it was an illegal rifle to pistol conversion.
Years later, Val Forgett of Navy Arms fame, had Navy Arms do a IHMSA silhouette version of the rolling block pistol. It had a 14" vent rib barrel, thumb-rest grip, and was chambered in 30-30.

It's too bad we don't see more single shot pistols along these lines. It's a great looking package and a lot easier to deal with than a bulky Remington XP-100.

[nuclearcricket]

I am pretty sure the rolling block pistol is kind of a nitch item. It is a shame that Uberti has stopped making them. However if you have the skills and tools or know a smith that does. you can buy casting kits from Rodney Storie (sp). I don't have his contact info handy but he can be found on the ASSRA Forum. He also has kits for the #7 as well.That will give you a chance to have one at a reasonable price. Down side is the stock for the #7 is a bit on the pricey side but TReebone does have a pattern. I don't know if anyone makes the grips for the pistol or not. That may be a diy project. His castings are 8620 so they will harden up nicely and show some nice colors if done right.
Sam

[marlinman93]

If you guys like Remington Rolling Block pistols, you might want to investigate a guy named Al Georg. He was a pioneer handgun hunter and gunsmith. He made a few rolling block pistols from original Remington rifle actions, usually for a small rifle cartridge. He wrote an article in the 1960s on one he did for 30 Carbine. Apparently, it got the attention of the authorities as it was an illegal rifle to pistol conversion.
Years later, Val Forgett of Navy Arms fame, had Navy Arms do a IHMSA silhouette version of the rolling block pistol. It had a 14" vent rib barrel, thumb-rest grip, and was chambered in 30-30.

It's too bad we don't see more single shot pistols along these lines. It's a great looking package and a lot easier to deal with than a bulky Remington XP-100.

I've seen a number of different Rolling Block rifle actions built into pistols, and I always wonder how guys can be so oblivious, or negligent in doing these when I thought everyone knew it was illegal to make a pistol off of a rifle action? Yet it seems there's plenty of them out there still.
I know of one currently that's built on a #4 takedown frame and chambered in .32-20WCF! Not just illegal, but unsafe too! When I asked the guy about it his reply was, "It's safe with the light loads I shoot."
I told him that didn't make it legal, he just shrugged his shoulders.

[ndnchf]

I'm not very familiar with the laws. But if the action was made before 1898 - say a 1870s NY state rifle action. Would building a pistol from that be illegal?

[marlinman93]

I'm not very familiar with the laws. But if the action was made before 1898 - say a 1870s NY state rifle action. Would building a pistol from that be illegal?

I can't answer that either. My gut says since it's "Antique" it's considered a non firearm by ATF rules, so shouldn't be an issue. But I'd want it down on paper from ATF before I did such a modification.

[ndnchf]

I agree, it is kind of a gray area.

[Bazoo]

I'm interested as well. A short barreled rifle or machinegun made before the 1898 would still be considered NFA items, wouldn't they?

[marlinman93]

I'm interested as well. A short barreled rifle or machinegun made before the 1898 would still be considered NFA items, wouldn't they?

Well it's tough to find 1898 or earlier machineguns, but the rest I don't know about.
And the way things are, unless you have a friend whose an ATF agent it's uncomfortable to ask, and maybe end up on some list of people they want to go visit.

[Bazoo]

Well it's tough to find 1898 or earlier machineguns, but the rest I don't know about.
And the way things are, unless you have a friend whose an ATF agent it's uncomfortable to ask, and maybe end up on some list of people they want to go visit.

I agree.

[BobT]

The way I understand it, antiques are still firearms so would still be subject to most of the NFA rules. Muzzle loading guns are not (yet) considered firearms and thus are exempt from the NFA. This is just my take and not legal advice. I believe the ATF uses ambiguity to advantage, if they want to get you they will.

[missionary5155]

John Browning turned a 1892 Winchester into a full auto that then evolved into the Colt "potato digger" Machinegun as used in Cuba. So well before 1898.
Reportedly the 1892 would fire the hole tube mag in about 2 seconds. Did not upset the neighbors as Mr. Browning was always carrying out interesting "experiments" with firearms.

[Ajohns]

John Browning turned a 1892 Winchester into a full auto that then evolved into the Colt "potato digger" Machinegun as used in Cuba. So well before 1898.
Reportedly the 1892 would fire the hole tube mag in about 2 seconds. Did not upset the neighbors as Mr. Browning was always carrying out interesting "experiments" with firearms.

I'm not sure about that in 1892, but did read he did it on an 1873 model.
I wouldn't doubt both models or either model with his expertise

[marlinman93]

John Browning turned a 1892 Winchester into a full auto that then evolved into the Colt "potato digger" Machinegun as used in Cuba. So well before 1898.
Reportedly the 1892 would fire the hole tube mag in about 2 seconds. Did not upset the neighbors as Mr. Browning was always carrying out interesting "experiments" with firearms.

The Colt Model 1895 machinegun was designed in 1889 by Browning but patented in 1892, so not based on an 1892 Winchester. And it certainly doesn't look like any of the various 1873 or 1892 actions. It does use a gas operated "lever" which gave it the "potato digger" name.
Probably going to be tough for any civilian to find one or own one, even with a special tax stamp. And of course making your 1873 or 1892 into a machinegun is likely going to get you in trouble with ATF these days, even if it's an antique you started with.

[ndnchf]

Safer just to stick with a Gatling gun ��

[marlinman93]

Safer just to stick with a Gatling gun ��

Or our old single shot rifles! ;)

[Ajohns]

The Colt Model 1895 machinegun was designed in 1889 by Browning but patented in 1892, so not based on an 1892 Winchester. And it certainly doesn't look like any of the various 1873 or 1892 actions. It does use a gas operated "lever" which gave it the "potato digger" name.
Probably going to be tough for any civilian to find one or own one, even with a special tax stamp. And of course making your 1873 or 1892 into a machinegun is likely going to get you in trouble with ATF these days, even if it's an antique you started with.

You are right on that.
In his book, they showed a prototype hand held he'd done off the 1873 model Winchester.
I'd stick with a single shot:grin: