cast designs

[castmiester]

I noticed in my load manuals that they mention one or two designs over the rest that are preferred or popular, etc.... I have a Taurus 66 4 inch barrel .357 magnum with a 1:16 1/2 twist. Does any weight work or does a certain weight shine out of all of them? I know about Brinell Hardness Number, works into the equation and load, but say heavy weights shoot better, and for hunting do the heavy's work better or lighter ones? I'm a rifleman and don't shoot much pistol.

[poppy42]

Other than a 1:16 twist and a 4” barrel and possibly a black hawk? I’m not really sure cause ya just through out a bh could mean anything at this point. I think little more info might be a tad bit beneficial. Cause I for one don’t have a clue what the heck your asking. Or what your trying to find out! Folks on this forum are very knowledgeable about many many things I don’t think clairvoyance is one of them. Lol

[Land Owner]

In general, load manual tends to "push" a single Mfg's popular products (made popular because that's what they published) over the wider range of all available products. Another reason you need to buy more manuals. Not all boolit profiles have been recorded in the manuals. Not all boolit weights have been recorded either.

There is still some "wildcatting" to do interpolating between recorded boolit weights. Consult more than two manuals first. Start low, at or above the recorded MINIMUM for the closest boolit weight and work up. Try NOTHING over the recorded maximum though, unless you are looking for a bad day. I'm a rifleman too, a meat hunter, but have reloaded and shot a heap of pistols and pistol boolits.

I think you mean Brinell Hardness (BH), correct? It helps us help you if you indicate what you are hunting, which pistols, which powders, and which boolit profiles.

[Bigslug]

Caliber and intended use would be helpful pieces of information.

[castmiester]

In general, load manual tends to "push" a single Mfg's popular products (made popular because that's what they published) over the wider range of all available products. Another reason you need to buy more manuals. Not all boolit profiles have been recorded in the manuals. Not all boolit weights have been recorded either.

There is still some "wildcatting" to do interpolating between recorded boolit weights. Consult more than two manuals first. Start low, at or above the recorded MINIMUM for the closest boolit weight and work up. Try NOTHING over the recorded maximum though, unless you are looking for a bad day. I'm a rifleman too, a meat hunter, but have reloaded and shot a heap of pistols and pistol boolits.

I think you mean Brinell Hardness (BH), correct? It helps us help you if you indicate what you are hunting, which pistols, which powders, and which boolit profiles.

I edited my OP.... with more details about my revolver.

I'm aware not all bullet weight and profiles are recorded. And that is my reason for post here titled "cast designs" Just wanted to know of why all the different profiles, designs, IOW bands, nose profiles, etc..

Mainly Target shooting and some hunting

[TurnipEaterDown]

Profiles changes on cast bullets often serve different purposes (hunting, target, Long Range target, etc.), and are also made to fit different guns (Lead & Throat geometry, freebore, magazine length, etc.).

Cast are fundamentally different than jacketed - generally people want the grease grooves in the cartridge neck versus exposed (and there are LOTS of different cartridges & guns in, say, 30 caliber), hard cast pistol bullets can be made to deliver good wounding w/o expansion if the nose shape is correct, a lead cast bullet "skin" is always softer than jacket alloy - so design changes made to improve fit of lead and throat will help improve accuracy while attaining higher speeds where this is not so often done w/ jacketed, etc.

There are some "unique" designs (compared to jacketed) also w/ Very specific "mechanical" purpose - stop rings, heels, etc.

If it seems "odd", chances are it serves a purpose, and the point of reference is a modern jacketed skewing the perception.

Also, some people who design cast bullet molds likely think they can hit the "magic idea".

[castmiester]

Profiles changes on cast bullets often serve different purposes (hunting, target, Long Range target, etc.), and are also made to fit different guns (Lead & Throat geometry, freebore, magazine length, etc.).

Cast are fundamentally different than jacketed - generally people want the grease grooves in the cartridge neck versus exposed (and there are LOTS of different cartridges & guns in, say, 30 caliber), hard cast pistol bullets can be made to deliver good wounding w/o expansion if the nose shape is correct, a lead cast bullet "skin" is always softer than jacket alloy - so design changes made to improve fit of lead and throat will help improve accuracy while attaining higher speeds where this is not so often done w/ jacketed, etc.

There are some "unique" designs (compared to jacketed) also w/ Very specific "mechanical" purpose - stop rings, heels, etc.

If it seems "odd", chances are it serves a purpose, and the point of reference is a modern jacketed skewing the perception.

Also, some people who design cast bullet molds likely think they can hit the "magic idea".

thanks for the info...much appreciated. Some one mentioned above more manuals... any one that stands out ? I have Lyman 3 & 4.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

what's BH?

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

one or two designs over the rest that are preferred or popular, etc.... I have a Taurus 66 4 inch barrel .357 magnum with a 1:16 1/2 twist.

Have you read this book?
http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Contents.htm

Seven chapters that should help you with boolits and boolit designs

[castmiester]

one or two designs over the rest that are preferred or popular, etc.... I have a Taurus 66 4 inch barrel .357 magnum with a 1:16 1/2 twist.

Have you read this book?
http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Contents.htm

Seven chapters that should help you with boolits and boolit designs

not yet, but someone already posted it for me, thanks. BH Brinell Hardness

[Dusty Bannister]

not yet, but someone already posted it for me, thanks. BH Brinell Hardness

There will be a lot less confusion if you would consider using correct terms and abbreviations.
Brinell Hardness Number = BHN

Brinell Hardness is a test, BHN is the result of the test.

[jdgabbard]

Another source of load data for you will be the "Reloader's Reference". This is all user submitted data, so be sure to compare it to load data for other similar boolits.

Something else you can always look at to get an idea for working up loads without published data is either Quick Load or Gordon's Reloading Tool. But this should be left alone until you're experienced.

One thing I've noticed is that the best source for data on Cast Bullets is going to be your Lyman manuals. However, these shift over time with respect to bullet selection based upon what is still currently available. Every once in a while they'll throw in some data from another manufacturer, but usually only when there is not a suitable, or popular, bullet mold offering of their own. Such as the 7.62x39 data, they have data for the 311359, and then both of the Lee molds. Certainly this has something to do with popularity, as these are the molds they see as being most profitable. However, that is not entirely true either, as there are many molds that are very popular for the niche applications they serve.

As for the 38spl, there are certain combinations that are just tried and true. The round has been around for a long long time, and there are some loads that are just considered to be the go to. Same with mold designs. Of the more popular are the Lyman 358311, Lyman 358477, RCBS .38-150-SWC, and Lee TL358-158-SWC and 358-158-RF. All of these have a good reputation for being excellent bullet options for the 38spl and 357mag. But generally speaking, most 38spl and 357magnum guns are going to be most accurate, and shoot point to sights, with a 150-160gr bullet. A lighter or heavier bullet with either shoot lower, or higher.

One timeless classic load is 5grs of Unique under either the 358311 or 358477 in 38spl brass. This should be considered a +P load in today's books. But it is still a very capable load for the 38spl.

[castmiester]

Thanks JD.. appreciate it. And the rest for helping me post better.

[Bigslug]

If you're looking for something kind of "all purpose". . .

With the .357, you can walk the line between velocity and weight.

If you're hunting critters of reasonable size (deer & pig) you want something that's got ability to penetrate deeply and make a leaky hole.

Expansion with cast bullets - to my way of thinking anyway - can be a really complicated can of worms to open, because you have to start balancing lack of hardness for deformation against the level of hardness needed to perform properly at your desired level of speed, figure out how fast your bullet needs to be going on impact to expand, figure out what distance at which it will be travelling at that velocity, and so on.

So I tend to like stuff in the 160-180 grain range, with a WFN (Wide Flat Nose) profile, which you can also think of as a Round Nose Flat Point with a meplat diameter of about .25" to .27", and would cast it out of a wheel-weight-ish alloy of about 12-14 BHN and allow it to air cool if I planned to drive it hard, and soften it up to around 10 BHN for speeds of about 1000 fps.

I've driven a 135 grain 9mm of that basic profile (pics below) and WW hardness at 1030 fps into a milk jug penetration test, and it required nine gallons of water to bring it to a halt. Obviously, with it's greater weight and speed capabilities, a .357 can do more.

The Accurate Molds 36-170D is one of mine: https://accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=36-170D The tumble lube groove format may not be your thing, but I wanted a bullet with twin crimp grooves so it could be utilized to best effect in either .38 or .357 brass.

[castmiester]

with hardening I can get 15 BHN. What speed do you drive them at ?

[Bigslug]

with hardening I can get 15 BHN. What speed do you drive them at ?

Lyman #2 is a 15BHN alloy and is regarded as a darn good choice for rifle projectiles creeping up on 2,000 fps. I'd probably start looking for something that hard for a .357 if I was going to roll above 1,200-1300 fps. It's excessive - maybe even undesirable - for anything less than that. I like my middle-heavy .357's down around 1,000-1,100 - mainly on the concept of it being a magnum 9mm or .40 with better sectional density that I can still get down out of recoil quickly for a second shot.

[Land Owner]

My one (1) and only one, stalking with a handgun hog kill (150# sow), came at 21 yards from a 7.5"-barrel, Ruger Blackhawk, 45 Colt, loaded "Blackhawk-hot" with Unique (iaw a published load manual), driving a 255 gr. (my alloy) boolit, of Lyman 454-190 (truncated round nose) profile. The round went right through both shoulders, dropped her in her tracks, and I failed to see the larger boar with whom she had been feeding as I was focused on the "geyser" of water from the boolit hitting a mud puddle beyond the sow. The boar took off to parts unknown. Didn't matter though. The sow was down. That was something a 357 Mag could have done.

[Bass Ackward]

What trips people up is that EVERY single design uses a combination of weight, velocity, and meplat size to determine effectiveness. That means there is a minimum range and a maximum in the technique you are using. Hardness just complicates the issue. So as velocity is lost, you need more and more meplat to compensate which is severely limited. Velocity is the biggest factor. So how do we know? I use my chosen combination to establish the minimum / maximum. For deer, only 4 milk jugs of penetration set the minimum. More than that and you risk no blood trail. For the max, 3 is sufficient to poke the hole. Texas heart shots will be different. Different types of game (density) will be different. Different hardness means retesting. Welcome to cast bullets.

[castmiester]

What trips people up is that EVERY single design uses a combination of weight, velocity, and meplat size to determine effectiveness. That means there is a minimum range and a maximum in the technique you are using. Hardness just complicates the issue. So as velocity is lost, you need more and more meplat to compensate which is severely limited. Velocity is the biggest factor. So how do we know? I use my chosen combination to establish the minimum / maximum. For deer, only 4 milk jugs of penetration set the minimum. More than that and you risk no blood trail. For the max, 3 is sufficient to poke the hole. Texas heart shots will be different. Different types of game (density) will be different. Different hardness means retesting. Welcome to cast bullets.

According to Lymans 3rd Edition


Moderate hard alloy not harder than #2 alloy 90-5-5 16 BHN. With suitable accuracy 13.5 BHN .30 cal. up to about 2100 FPS 60% weight retention

Haven't found any info about pistol yet. Maybe some manuals that hone in on pistol hunting.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

"At magnum handgun velocities (e.g. 1400 fps), bullets with a BHN of about 12 (e.g. air-cooled WW alloy) will expand somewhat. This is an excellent alloy for deer and black bear sized game. Water quenched WW alloy at BHN 16-18 is quite tough and will neither expand or shatter at these speeds. This is an excellent alloy for maximum penetration. For higher velocity applications (e.g. .357 Maximum, .454 Casull), these harder bullets also commonly provide better accuracy."
chapter 3 from the book I linked to in previous post:
http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Chapter_3_alloySelectionMetallurgy.ht m

Now that's concise, I'm sure there are other books the could make 100+ pages on the subject of hunting.
The rest of the chapter goes deeper into alloys.

Also, there is some good reading in the list of references used to compose Chapter 3.

[castmiester]

I need an I pad for work, my phone is waaay to small to read stuff. Thanks for the info !

[Bass Ackward]

Pistol? Ah, what’s the difference? There is no such thing as handgun or rifle lead. Guns are simply launching devices made to launch a certain weight slug at a certain velocity with “maybe” a certain accuracy potential. The minimum and maximum range with cast work exactly the same unless velocity reaches a level to induce hydrostatic shock which is seldom tried for or obtained with lead.

[castmiester]

Pistol? Ah, what’s the difference? There is no such thing as handgun or rifle lead. Guns are simply launching devices made to launch a certain weight slug at a certain velocity with “maybe” a certain accuracy potential. The minimum and maximum range with cast work exactly the same unless velocity reaches a level to induce hydrostatic shock which is seldom tried for or obtained with lead.

to punch through without expansion wouldn't be my idea of a ethical kill.

[jdgabbard]

to punch through without expansion wouldn't be my idea of a ethical kill.

Depends on what you're shooting, and what you're shooting with. A 35cal SWC of a hard alloy at 1200fps might not expand much, but is sure more than enough to take deer sized game. A 380acp with a hollow point may under the right conditions expand, but may not penetrate deep enough to stop an attacker.

It's about the balance between penetration, bullet size, speed, and expansion. A 50bmg might not expand any, but I'm sure it's more than enough to take any game you or I am going to hunt...

[castmiester]

In general, load manual tends to "push" a single Mfg's popular products (made popular because that's what they published) over the wider range of all available products. Another reason you need to buy more manuals. Not all boolit profiles have been recorded in the manuals. Not all boolit weights have been recorded either.



There is still some "wildcatting" to do interpolating between recorded boolit weights. Consult more than two manuals first. Start low, at or above the recorded MINIMUM for the closest boolit weight and work up. Try NOTHING over the recorded maximum though, unless you are looking for a bad day. I'm a rifleman too, a meat hunter, but have reloaded and shot a heap of pistols and pistol boolits.

I think you mean Brinell Hardness (BH), correct? It helps us help you if you indicate what you are hunting, which pistols, which powders, and which boolit profiles.

Any in particular that stand out ? For pistols.

[charlie b]

We had 5 different .357's to play with at one time, including a Marlin carbine. Almost all of them liked different weight bullets and loads.

4" DA liked 125gn loaded hot. 4" SA liked 158 bullets loaded slow. Marlin liked heavier bullets loaded hot. The two snubs liked 125gn medium loads. Buy some different bullets and try them. Once you find the weight and load your gun likes, then look for a mold.

If you want expansion get a HP mold. A good SWC or WFN will usually cut a good hole as well. Best of both worlds. HP SWC or HP WFN.