Need some help/info antique S&W

[brokeasajoke]

A friend has offered this up for sale but I may pass as it is in such poor condition. His FIL passed and he is selling off his collection. I did get a Rossi Squire double 410 in excellent condition. Apart from that I am trying to find anything at all about this pistol. He told me it was 38 S&W. There are no caliber markings on it at all but a sized 44 special will almost slide in. I'm pretty sure it's not a Russian because the brass doesn't reach the cylinder throat by probably 3/16" or so. The frame and cylinder has matching 4 digit numbers. As you can see in the pics that just above my thumb it looks as though The barrel is bent/collapsed inward as though some one fell and muzzle struck some thing hard at one time. I'm beginning to think it is a 44-40. I drove a powder coated .430 bullet through the barrell and it came out .425-.427 depending on where I measured. Cool piece of history just not sure it's $200 worth. The barrel rib says SMITH & WESSON SPRINGFIELD MASS U.S.A. PAT'D JAN. 17 & 24 65
JULY 11 65 AUG 24 69 JULY 25 71 DEC 2 79 MAY 11 & 25 1880.
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[Wayne Smith]

I'm far from an expert, but is that trigger guard from Smith and Wesson??

[hoodat]

I believe that would be the 44 S&W American cartridge.

I believe that is the correct trigger guard. Poor old thing needs some love. It would be worth 200 bucks to me. If the mechanics work properly, even more. jd

[Tatume]

This is a S&W 44 Double Action. There are a couple of variations. The First Model has serial numbers in the range of 1 - 54668, and 53,590 were made between 1881 and 1913. Examples in poor condition were valued by Supica & Nahas at $200 in in 1996. The cartridge is 44 S&W Russian. The topstrap marking matches the Supica & Nahas description exactly.

[brokeasajoke]

It functions well and locks up on all cylinder notches before hammer comes to full cock in dbl and single action

[cwtebay]

I'm guessing it's a 44 Russian. A 44 American should be well over 0.430" as it is the heeled member of the family.

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[brokeasajoke]

I'm thinking the chamber is way too long for Russian. It will have to travel in the chamber before it reaches throat.

[Tall]

I don't think the double action S&W revolver was offered in 44 American. More likely it is 44 Russian. With the bad barrel it is not worth a whole lot.

[rintinglen]

That appears to be a New Model #3, which should be chambered for 44 Russian. I'm with Hoodat on this one, if the innards function as they should, I'd buy it for 200-300 bucks.. The dented barrel could be repaired, and I suspect the bore is not quite as bad as it looks, but a thorough cleaning would be in order before I could make the final determination.

[Tatume]

Check the serial number and see if I'm right.

[cwtebay]

Check the serial number and see if I'm right.I believe that the OP said it has a 4 number serial.

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[brokeasajoke]

That appears to be a New Model #3, which should be chambered for 44 Russian. I'm with Hoodat on this one, if the innards function as they should, I'd buy it for 200-300 bucks.. The dented barrel could be repaired, and I suspect the bore is not quite as bad as it looks, but a thorough cleaning would be in order before I could make the final determination.


44 Russian would put the case mouth a good 1/4" or more away from the throat.

[brokeasajoke]

Check the serial number and see if I'm right.

It has a 4 digit serial 7xxx. Don't remember what it was exactly.

[brokeasajoke]

That appears to be a New Model #3, which should be chambered for 44 Russian. I'm with Hoodat on this one, if the innards function as they should, I'd buy it for 200-300 bucks.. The dented barrel could be repaired, and I suspect the bore is not quite as bad as it looks, but a thorough cleaning would be in order before I could make the final determination.

How would one repair that?

[Tatume]

Does a four-digit serial number not fall in the range of 1 - 54668? John Wesley Hardin carried one with three digit serial number 352.

The dent can be repaired by simply boring a rebate, sacrificing maybe one-half inch of rifling. The dent would still show on the outside, but who cares?

[cwtebay]

Does a four-digit serial number not fall in the range of 1 - 54668? John Wesley Hardin carried one with three digit serial number 352.

The dent can be repaired by simply boring a rebate, sacrificing maybe one-half inch of rifling. The dent would still show on the outside, but who cares?Apologies - I missed your 1-xxxxxxxx.

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[dtknowles]

Certainly, worth a lot more than $200. I would give $400 without batting an eyelash. If you put it here on S&S I would back up my $400 with cash and I bet I would be outbid. You can ship it without an FFL or C&R. All large frame top break S&W revolvers are considered antiques. I have two that I paid more for. One single action (38-44 target) and one double action (44-40). That piece of history belongs with someone who appreciates it.

Tim

[Kai]

Your gun is most certainly not a New Model Number Three. The frame is not correct for this model. Your gun is most definitely a .44 Double Action first model chambered in 44 S&W Russian unless

[cwtebay]

This is a three digit #3. Obviously a 44 Russian cartridge. Chambered in 44 American.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20231216/837624ddbf00133872cf8cc29c45db1c.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20231216/9948e0d03638b3c84a290de8c562ff2e.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20231216/1b274732c8c60d7f8ea37799b8345073.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20231216/32f413798bbf4c333850953c1e8d3cd4.jpg

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[brokeasajoke]

This is a three digit #3. Obviously a 44 Russian cartridge. Chambered in 44 American.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20231216/837624ddbf00133872cf8cc29c45db1c.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20231216/9948e0d03638b3c84a290de8c562ff2e.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20231216/1b274732c8c60d7f8ea37799b8345073.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20231216/32f413798bbf4c333850953c1e8d3cd4.jpg

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So this is a #3? The trigger on my friends is way different. Ist the case mouth far away from the throat in the Russian?

[rintinglen]

The 44 Russian Cartridge is ~.2 inches shorter than the 44 Special, .970 inches versus 1.16 inches. In bygone days, it was common for shooters to trim 44 Special brass to make useable ammo for the older S&W's and Colt's, nowadays your just about as likely to find 44 Russian as you are 44 Special brass. Neither is common. This particular example is a New Model No. 3 Double action, 1st variant. As I recall, the No.3 refers to the frame size, sort of like the N Frame designation. The Number 1 was the little tip-up 22, the Number 2 was the 32 rimfire, and the Number 3's were the large frame top breaks.

[Tall]

Left to right 44 WCF, 44 Special and 44 Russian. Brass in this case is R-P, Hornady and Starline respectively.

[Tall]

Here is a 44 S&W American (left) next to a 44 Russian.

[Tall]

This is again a 44 Russian (left) compared to a 44 S&W American. Notice the rim is much smaller on the American.

[brokeasajoke]

I'm probably going to purchase this gun and I would like to be able to shoot it. I'll probably end up doing a chamber cast. I'm going to order some cerrosafe this evening unless someone has another option.

[Tatume]

FYI pricing

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/1013744042

[Larry Gibson]

FYI; some time back I acquired a partial box of old factory R-P 44 Russian cartridges. Being the inquisitive sort I just had to pressure test them. They were in R-P marked cases with a, presumed, Remington primer. The LRN 246 gr bullet was loaded over 3.8 gr of a flake powder. Out of 10 shots for the pressure test i got 8 to record data. The average psi out of the Contender test barrel was 14,600. I then chronographed 10 shots out of my Ruger FTBH 44 magnum. The average velocity out of the 6 1/2" barrel was 774 fps [10' from muzzle] with an ES of 51 fps and an SD of 18 fps. That is very good BTW.

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Nice old S&W revolver, hopefully you can get it shooting again.

[brokeasajoke]

Dona chamber cast with wax as I'm impatient and can't wait for cerrosafe to ship. Casting next to empty 44spl and 44 mag.
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[cwtebay]

Dona chamber cast with wax as I'm impatient and can't wait for cerrosafe to ship. Casting next to empty 44spl and 44 mag.
321077Nice! Appears that confirms the 44 Russian hypothesis?

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[brokeasajoke]

I'm not sure. Would 44-40 work? You can see how far ahead the throat would be from a Russian.

[brokeasajoke]

Magtech 410 brass will slide partially in the chamber and will not go into my special or 44 mag but I dont guess that really means anything. The 410 brass measures .466 at the mouth. I believe the 44-40 is slightly larger than special or Russian but this is an old gun with rust and wear.

[brokeasajoke]

Well the answer is 44-40. Thanks to nuclearcricket who sent me a piece of brass.
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[cwtebay]

Well the answer is 44-40. Thanks to nuclearcricket who sent me a piece of brass.
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321256Cool!

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[brokeasajoke]

Couldn't help it, it stays with me. Guy priced it for $150 so.....I paid the man.